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Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

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Yeah whatever, I will just let you guys do whatever you want. When this finish I will start another scaling thread to fix this Bijū bullshit.
 
Didn't we already agree that Base Madara is 6-C? If so, then 5 kage scale to that.
Well some people agreed on that.

Personally I still have some issues with it but I'm out of time tonight.
 
Yeah whatever, I will just let you guys do whatever you want. When this finish I will start another scaling thread to fix this Bijū bullshit.
Can you provide counter arguments instead of throwing tantrums like a child? Nobody here is insisting on anything, we are just having a discussion. There is no need to create seperate threads out of spite.
 
I have, but what will it serve? There are at least 3 people on that thread who don't argue, just agree. I won't waste time arguing while people just say "agree" with the opposite argument and haven't even read it.
 
I mean, Damage, KingTempest, Shrek, and many others have voiced their disagreements on MANY things and it resulted in fruitful debates that for the most part came out with decent results, so no, it does matter. You're the one who's refusing to look at the arguments rn, and just disagreeing for the sake of it.
 
yes, I am disagreeing for the sake of it. I think you didn't see or is just pretending to be blind, the times I argued a lot of why scaling ninjas to Bijū would result in a inconsistent scaling. But whatever, do whatever you guys want, without staff approval this can't be applied
 
yes, I am disagreeing for the sake of it. I think you didn't see or is just pretending to be blind, the times I argued a lot of why scaling ninjas to Bijū would result in a inconsistent scaling. But whatever, do whatever you guys want, without staff approval this can't be applied
We are trying to make it consistent buddy, and if it can't be done, then we will just scale Kage to something else.
 
yes, I am disagreeing for the sake of it. I think you didn't see or is just pretending to be blind, the times I argued a lot of why scaling ninjas to Bijū would result in a inconsistent scaling. But whatever, do whatever you guys want, without staff approval this can't be applied
When though? We literally just started discussing the kage a couple of hours ago lol.
 
It's not only about the Kages, but almost everything. If LordTracer suggest to scale Kages to the Low 6-B calc from Susano, I bet that Metalija + 2 would agree with it no matter the inconsistencies
 
I have, but what will it serve? There are at least 3 people on that thread who don't argue, just agree. I won't waste time arguing while people just say "agree" with the opposite argument and haven't even read it.
Metalija is one of them, btw
I am pretty sure that I have argued in this thread, there were also times where I disagreed with LordTracer and others. So the idea that I automaticaly agree with everything that people opposed to you say is not correct.
 
Imma just say my own. @M3X I understand you frustration 2000% percent.
Damage already said the Gaara counter, which was countered with "why would he think it's Shukaku then?".

Gaara and Shukaku are the only 2 known sand users in the entire SERIES.
Nobody else in the show uses sand except Naruto (now that he has Shukaku) and Bunpuku (that old guy from Shukaku's flashback).
I'm hypothesizing that Rasa only knows of 1 user of the sand with that proficiency, Shukaku.
Heck, Naruto called the flying raijin Minato's move and he said Tobirama has it. Does it mean they have the same potency?
No.

Power ≠ strength, that's the hugest stretch ever.
You all know what A’s done. He sliced off one of Gyūki’s horns. And yes, Raiton chakra enhances cutting power. But, considering that A is completely covered in the stuff (it‘s called the Raiton Chakra Mode for a reason), that shouldn’t detract from his feats considering that all of his attacks would be like that. He also sent Madara flying with a punch.
That's like saying somebody covered in armor has the same feats as a knife made with the same material. If it's enhanced, it's enhanced. You can't just say "he has the cutting power, so it should have the striking power too". if I stab you with a sword then hit you with the side of it, which one will do more damage?

Didn't his armor get hit by a regular chidori from Sasuke... the same chidori that matched Naruto's rasengan, which, while in the future, and bigger, couldn't break a Susanoo ribcage... while the 8 tails contributed at least 1/9th of damage to a 10x boosted (from Sage) Madara's stronger Susanoo?

Naruto's Base Rasengan > Sasuke's Chidori > A's Dura > A's Cutting Power > Gyuki's Dura ≥ Gyuki's Striking Strength > 1/9th of Sage Susanoo Dura ≥ Regular Susanoo Dura ≥ Enhanced Ay Punch > Regular A Punch...
But Madara's Ribcage > Ultra Big Ball Rasengan > Regular ass Rasengan right...

There's a thing in this world called common sense and outliers.
I'll counter that 6-C base Madara point in the next comment.
Durability negation is a thing. He has dura negation on his profile with Dust Release.
That's not dura that's endurance.
Can someone please quantify how much energy it would take to melt chakra? Melting is just speeding up molecules.
What feats does his fire style, that was countered by FODDER, have?
You have no explanation on why his striking strength is 6-C outside of "it should be".
So, based on their feats, I believe that all of the Five Kage should be 6-C.
-_-
 
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Quick scaling counter.
Madara was island level in base for taking Naruto's striking strength which should be equal to a bijuudama correct?

Damage said this.
Also, this calls into question whether slapping a Bijudama counts as taking the full energy of the explosion. It seems a lot like slapping a missile away. You wouldn't scale to the potency of a missile just because you kicked it our of the air.
Nobody countered this point successfully OR accurately.

UC69 said this.

"This example doesn't apply here at all because we've seen that TBBs are comparable to the Biju's physically even without exploding. Here we see that the Mokuton that was restraining Kurama physically was destroyed by a TBB without exploding. This is relevant because it proves that TBBs can be used as "battering rams" of sorts, that are comparable to the physicals of the Bijuu in question."

The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count. We see Killer B destroy in the same scan I sent rip through it because it stopped absorbing his power, so the only counter to that, no.

So what I need from someone ASAP is to prove that a non exploding Bijuudama = an exploding bijuudama. If you can accurately prove this, then Naruto's striking strength would equal 6-C which would correlate to Madara, which I know for a fact that that's not the case.

Hashirama's wood golem could catch a bijuudama from Kurama before it explodes.
When it explodes, it destroys the SAME EXACT thing that held and caught it. I can tell it was destroyed since we don't see it anymore.

So that crumbles your entire scaling argument for 6-C Kage and base Madara.
So we need to prove that a mass of chakra = the explosion after.

The "it should be's" and the "that makes no sense" doesn't apply here.

This is the root of the entire argument. Fix the root, and the tree stays in place.
 
I’ll concede on Rasa’s statement, but that doesn’t change that Gaara explicitly stated he was Shukaku’s equal and could hold back chains from the Gedō Mazō that could previous drag Gyūki to the ground.
That's like saying somebody covered in armor has the same feats as a knife made with the same material. If it's enhanced, it's enhanced. You can't just say "he has the cutting power, so it should have the striking power too". if I stab you with a sword then hit you with the side of it, which one will do more damage?
Depends on where you stab and depends on how hard you hit. And you can’t exactly compare ordinary metal to lightning chakra.
Didn't his armor get hit by a regular chidori from Sasuke... the same chidori that matched Naruto's rasengan, which, while in the future, and bigger, couldn't break a Susanoo ribcage... while the 8 tails contributed at least 1/9th of damage to a 10x boosted (from Sage) Madara's stronger Susanoo?
Okay, you’re ignoring context here. Sasuke was blind and incapable of using his MS when Naruto matched him. The Sasuke that fought A =/= the Sasuke that was getting knocked around by Kakashi and matched by Naruto. Also that’s V1 A. Not V2. So again, ignoring context.
There's a thing in this world called common sense and outliers.
There’s also a thing called context. Don’t get snappy when you’re ignoring that.
Durability negation is a thing. He has dura negation on his profile with Dust Release.
Yes, I know. I’m pretty sure I said this.
Can someone please quantify how much energy it would take to melt chakra? Melting is just speeding up molecules.
The definition of melting is; “The action or process of liquefying due to heat.” If she can do that to Madara’s Susano’o, she would scale to it. There’s literally no reason why she wouldn’t, and literally any other character on the wiki would scale to something for melting it with their own power.
What feats does his fire style, that was countered by FODDER, have?
Madara’s Katon would scale to his AP, like literally everyone else on the wiki. We don’t scale every single jutsu differently from the user, man, that’s just not how it works. If you’re trying to use that, what, do you think Madara’s Katon should be 7-C now?
You have no explanation on why his striking strength is 6-C outside of "it should be".
Are... are you serious? Madara is 6-C, his Susano’o is stronger, so his Susano’o is 6-C. For someone talking about “common sense,” you weren’t using a lot of it in that reply. Unless you think the Susano’o is weaker than base Madara?
Great reply, totally necessary, helpful and adds to your argument.
Madara was island level in base for taking Naruto's striking strength which should be equal to a bijuudama correct?
No. That is incorrect. Madara blocked and overpowered KCM2 Naruto, who casually swatted five Bijuudama away. The argument was never that he’s “equal to a Bijuudama.”
The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count.
Madara himself says otherwise. “Previously held down my Nine-Tails.” So yeah, the thing was restraining him.
So what I need from someone ASAP is to prove that a non exploding Bijuudama = an exploding bijuudama. If you can accurately prove this, then Naruto's striking strength would equal 6-C which would correlate to Madara, which I know for a fact that that's not the case.
Funny thing, I already gave several examples of this. There a reason you didn’t respond to those, hm?
I can tell it was destroyed since we don't see it anymore.
That is a blatant lie. In the page right before this one, what do we see opening to reveal Hashirama? That’s right, the face of his Wood Golem. You did this same thing earlier where you tried to claim B’s tentacle restrained A when A escaped it in the literal next page.
So we need to prove that a mass of chakra = the explosion after.
Was already done, you just somehow didn’t see it.
The "it should be's" and the "that makes no sense" doesn't apply here.
This was never the argument, and the fact that you think this is what the argument was is concerning.
 
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that doesn’t change that Gaara explicitly stated he was Shukaku’s equal and could hold back chains from the Gedō Mazō that could previous drag Gyūki to the ground.
Equals: a person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.
Equals doesn't always mean strength, he meant that he didn't look at him as a pet or an obstacle to his sleep.
Depends on where you stab and depends on how hard you hit. And you can’t exactly compare ordinary metal to lightning chakra.
Unless they stab a sharp part that's equal to the sharp blade of chakra that A used to cut Gyuki, then it doesn't matter.
Okay, you’re ignoring context here. Sasuke was blind and incapable of using his MS when Naruto matched him. The Sasuke that fought A =/= the Sasuke that was getting knocked around by Kakashi and matched by Naruto. Also that’s V1 A. Not V2. So again, ignoring context.
Dojutsu doesn't raise chakra potency. Sasuke's 2 & 3 tomoe sharingan had the same strength, just different timing in attacks. Dojutsu never raised chakra potency unless it's the chakra mode like tenseigan. All it does is give extra abilities. We were told everything about the Sharingan and Mangekyo, stat boost was never one of them.
Please identify which version of Lightning Chakra Mode A used in here. Looks like V1. And where was it stated that it boosted dura? All it said it did was allow him to use body flicker.
The definition of melting is; “The action or process of liquefying due to heat.” If she can do that to Madara’s Susano’o, she would scale to it. There’s literally no reason why she wouldn’t.
  • ΔT is the change in temperature; the starting temperature will usually be a reasonable room temperature unless there is a reason why the temperature would begin hot or cold in the calculation, the final temperature will usually be either melting point, freezing point, boiling point, or (if a burnable material is present) the auto-ignition temperature or burning material; this is measured in kelvin.
The wiki has a page for quantifying melting stuff. It's not like Amaterasu w/ the iron in Boruto where the instant where it touched it, it liquified. It took time for it to melt. Where does it fit for AP?
Madara’s Katon would scale to his AP, like literally everyone else on the wiki. We don’t scale every single jutsu differently, man, that’s just not how it works. If you’re trying to use that, what, do you think Madara’s Katon should be 7-C now?
Fire Release: Great Fire Annihilation, known in the wiki and databook as the pinnacle of fire release, what he used on the fodder ninja. Fire Release: Great Fire Destruction didn't even get it's own page in the databook, what he used against Mei. Not all jutsu and abilities scale the same. If Madara spits mad fast should it be 6-C too?
Are... are you serious? Madara is 6-C, his Susano’o is stronger, so his Susano’o is 6-C. For someone talking about “common sense,” you weren’t using a lot of it in that reply.
I argued against 6-C Madara in the next post. Please read the entire thing before you argue.
No. That is incorrect.
Please inform me on why he's island level in base.
Madara himself says otherwise. “Previously held down my Nine-Tails.”
We see the instance of him holding him down. We see Killer B, a victim of the jutsu, describe it as absorbing his chakra, which is consistent with wood style as it suppressed Naruto's chakra while Naruto was training with Yamato. You basically just said "The bullet didn't burn him, it gave him burns".
Funny thing, I already gave several examples of this. There a reason you didn’t respond to those, hm?
Lemme go look since you didn't want to tell me where
That is a blatant lie. In the page right before this one, what do we see opening to reveal Hashirama? That’s right, the face of his Wood Golem. You did this same thing earlier where you tried to claim B’s tentacle restrained A when A escaped it in the literal next page.
Where's the body? Where's the place that held the bijuudama? Would Hashirama not protect himself on the head of the beast? Look at him using the seal of confrontation when he sees the bijuudama about to explode. He obviously protected himself.
Was already done, you just somehow didn’t see it.
Gotta go look.
This was never the argument, and the fact that you think this is what the argument was is concerning
That was for the others who countered. I'm not just arguing with you, I'm arguing with your point and everyone that agrees with it.
 
Equals: a person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.
Equals doesn't always mean strength, he meant that he didn't look at him as a pet or an obstacle to his sleep.
I reiterate Gaara holding back chains that could drag Gyūki to the ground for a prolonged period of time.
Unless they stab a sharp part that's equal to the sharp blade of chakra that A used to cut Gyuki, then it doesn't matter.
Hold on, who are you referring to with ‘they?’
Dojutsu doesn't raise chakra potency.
Mangekyō is stronger than normal Sharingan. Eternal Mangekyō is stronger than normal Mangekyō. Madara became more powerful than his blind self after gaining one Rinnegan. This was a pretty major plot point, how did you not remember this? So yeah, blind Taka Sasuke is much weaker than Taka Sasuke with his MS activated.
We were told everything about the Sharingan and Mangekyo, stat boost was never one of them.
So... do you think base Hebi Sasuke is equal to MS Sasuke then?
Looks like V1.
You can’t really claim that considering that V1 and V2 are identical. Although if you use that common sense thing you were talking about earlier, A has no reason to not use his strongest form against a whole ass Bijuu. Let alone the second strongest one.
And where was it stated that it boosted dura?
Durability is comparable to AP. That’s how things are done on the site unless the source material explicitly says otherwise.
Where does it fit for AP?
It scales to the durability of the Susano’o. You can’t exactly calculate her melting chakra, so you use what requires the least assumptions and say that it scales to the Susano’o’s durability. If the Susano’o was made of rock, metal, or some tangible material, then you could talk about calcing.
Fire Release: Great Fire Annihilation, known in the wiki and databook as the pinnacle of fire release, what he used on the fodder ninja. Fire Release: Great Fire Destruction didn't even get it's own page in the databook, what he used against Mei.
And your point is? Again, do you want Madara’s Katon to be 7-C or something? Unless a jutsu is explicitly stronger than the caster, it scales to the user. That’s how things are done and how they’ve been done.
I argued against 6-C Madara in the next post. Please read the entire thing before you argue.
You asked why the Susano’o is 6-C. Madara being 6-C was already accepted, so logically the Susano’o would also be accepted at 6-C as well. Don’t get sarcastic when you couldn’t figure out something that obvious, mate.
Please inform me on why he's island level in base.
I did. My post literally explains that. Madara yeeted KCM2 Naruto, who smacked away five Bijuudama. The argument was never that he’s equal to a Bijuudama.
We see the instance of him holding him down. We see Killer B, a victim of the jutsu, describe it as absorbing his chakra, which is consistent with wood style as it suppressed Naruto's chakra while Naruto was training with Yamato. You basically just said "The bullet didn't burn him, it gave him burns".
You claimed the Wood Dragon didn’t hold him down, which is a blatant lie. So again, Wood Dragon was restraining Kurama and a non-exploded Bijuudama could break it.
Lemme go look since you didn't want to tell me where
Considering how you were able to find UchihaSlayer’s post, which was before mine, I’d assume you’d have seen it.
Where's the body? Where's the place that held the bijuudama? Would Hashirama not protect himself on the head of the beast? Look at him using the seal of confrontation when he sees the bijuudama about to explode. He obviously protected himself.
I never said Hashirama didn’t protect himself? What point are you trying to make here? I said that Hashirama’s Wood Golem was still there, as that was where he was shielding himself, since you claimed the Wood Golem wasn’t there anymore.
 
I’ll repost this so you don’t have to scroll. The Majestic Attire Bijuudama were shattering Sage Hashirama’s True Several Thousand Hands, without exploding. The True Several Thousand Hands are made of the same Mokuton that Hashirama used to protect himself from the explosion of Kurama’s Bijuudama. Also in the first scan, you see that when the Bijuudama does explode, Hashirama’s statue is still standing with minimal to no damage.

So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions.
 
He should be stronger than Alive Base Hashirama since he tied with Edo Sage Mode Hashirama.
Yeah, basically my thoughts on Hashirama and Madara is
Edo Base Hashirama < Alive Base Hashirama < Edo SM Hashirama < Alive SM Hashirama
Edo EMS Madara < Alive EMS Madara < Edo Rinnegan Madara < Alive Rinnegan Madara
 
Madara was also in Humanoid Susano enhanced with Senjutsu chakra when the group of Bijuu obliterated it.
 
I reiterate Gaara holding back chains that could drag Gyūki to the ground for a prolonged period of time.
Gaara held back chains that could drag and suppress Bijuu, which IIRC, Madara said "once they're on, they won't come off". Nothing says that for Gaara's sand. If Gaara had the same drawback, he would be in the same predicament.
Hold on, who are you referring to with ‘they?’
I really don't even know. My point is that A's Cutting ≠ A's Punching and such.
Mangekyō is stronger than normal Sharingan. Eternal Mangekyō is stronger than normal Mangekyō. Madara became more powerful than his blind self after gaining one Rinnegan. This was a pretty major plot point, how did you not remember this? So yeah, blind Taka Sasuke is much weaker than Taka Sasuke with his MS activated.
Strength ≠ AP.
You said the eyes are stronger than each other. Users aren't.
They have "stronger" (new) abilities, but their physical stats and previous genjutsu is still the same.

Madara was more powerful via gaining new abilities, not regular and previous stats boosted. Quick Timeline
Madara absorbs Sage Mode From Hashirama, then goes to fight the bijuu. Shukaku binds his movement, allowing him to not block, allowing him to get brutally smacked around by Bijuu 2-7. Shukaku seales him and escapes. He comes and gets crushed by Non Sage Mode KCM Naruto, then they all crush him. He escapes. Zetsu comes and brings him 2 things. 1, a new arm with Hashirama Cells, which boost physical energy, and a rinnegan. He then uses Limbo, which allows him to attack the 9 bijuu off guard since they can't sense him. Nothing says he got stronger based on the Rinnegan.
So... do you think base Hebi Sasuke is equal to MS Sasuke then?
In physical stats? Yes. In chakra potency? Yes. In perception, no, because of MS hax. In moveset, no because of Amaterasu and Susanoo.
You can’t really claim that considering that V1 and V2 are identical.
V2's hair sticks up.
Although if you use that common sense thing you were talking about earlier, A has no reason to not use his strongest form against a whole ass Bijuu. Let alone the second strongest one.
A fought the dude who "killed his brother" in his V1 for most of the fight. He decapitated a "tailless tailed beast" who has fought bijuu, in his V1. Half the time he fought Naruto, he was in his V1,
Durability is comparable to AP. That’s how things are done on the site unless the source material explicitly says otherwise.
Didn't he cut his own arm off w/ the cloak on? That puts his AP over his Dura.
It scales to the durability of the Susano’o. You can’t exactly calculate her melting chakra, so you use what requires the least assumptions and say that it scales to the Susano’o’s durability. If the Susano’o was made of rock, metal, or some tangible material, then you could talk about calcing.
Good point, it's dumb trying to pull an imaginary argument against you for this one.
And your point is? Again, do you want Madara’s Katon to be 7-C or something? Unless a jutsu is explicitly stronger than the caster, it scales to the user. That’s how things are done and how they’ve been done.
You asked why the Susano’o is 6-C. Madara being 6-C was already accepted, so logically the Susano’o would also be accepted at 6-C as well. Don’t get sarcastic when you couldn’t figure out something that obvious, mate.
Alright
I did. My post literally explains that. Madara yeeted KCM2 Naruto, who smacked away five Bijuudama. The argument was never that he’s equal to a Bijuudama.
When I asked prior, you said from the Uchiha Reflection with the Gunbai. Then I asked why would it be 6-C, and you said that Naruto had 6-C striking strength based on him smacking away the bijuudama, and it should scale to the force he applied w/ the Super Mini Bijuudama. Madara redirected it and took the recoil back, putting him at 6-C, which was the argument I assumed.
You claimed the Wood Dragon didn’t hold him down, which is a blatant lie. So again, Wood Dragon was restraining Kurama and a non-exploded Bijuudama could break it.
Quote where I said the Wood Dragon didn't hold him down. I said it made him weaker, which forced him to not work at full capacity. Of COURSE it held him down. He bragged about holding a full Kurama to 2 Bijuu. It held him down and made him weaker via absorbing the chakra.
Considering how you were able to find UchihaSlayer’s post, which was before mine, I’d assume you’d have seen it.
I did command-f then typed in missile to look for whoever quoted Damage's post. I didn't scroll throughout the entire page.
I never said Hashirama didn’t protect himself? What point are you trying to make here? I said that Hashirama’s Wood Golem was still there, as that was where he was shielding himself, since you claimed the Wood Golem wasn’t there anymore.
My thought process.
Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama Protecting the area that was destroyed > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.
You said it wasn't destroyed since we see the head.
I said that Hashirama successfully protected himself in the head when he saw it explode, the rest of the body, no, since he was on the ground inside the head that he protected, and not on the same level of altitude as Madara.

Hashirama protecting the head > Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama protecting it > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.

"I’ll repost this so you don’t have to scroll. The Majestic Attire Bijuudama were shattering Sage Hashirama’s True Several Thousand Hands, without exploding. The True Several Thousand Hands are made of the same Mokuton that Hashirama used to protect himself from the explosion of Kurama’s Bijuudama. Also in the first scan, you see that when the Bijuudama does explode, Hashirama’s statue is still standing with minimal to no damage. So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions."

I agreed until you put that for regular bijuudama, which couldn't be more wrong.

Hashirama caught a regular bijuudama with a wood golem hand. When Madara did the Evil Disturbance Waltz (the Bijuudama with a sword spinning like a rasenshuriken) the Five Layer Rashomon was destroyed.

That would make the Evil Disturbance Waltz 10x stronger than a regular bijuudama, since a regular bijuudama pre explosion was casually caught by a Wood Golem, but Sage mode (10x multiplier) wood release couldn't withstand it.
Same wood that protected it by your words.
Evil Disturbance Waltz > Sage Mode Wood Release ≥ 10x Regular Wood Release > Hashirama in base protecting himself from the explosion > Bijuudama that exploded > Hashirama in base not protecting the other portion of the body that was destroyed > Bijuudama that wasn't exploded.

So no, a non exploding bijuudama does not have similar potency to a bijuudama that has exploded. Feats have shown it.
 
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I agree. Having Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't increase physical stats. It just increases combat speed or similar things. Their physical abilities remain the same.
 
I agree. Having Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't increase physical stats. It just increases combat speed or similar things. Their physical abilities remain the same.
I wouldn't even say it increases combat speed. It would just allow you to strike earlier, or at least in the words of Sasuke from 2 tomoe to 3.
 
Yeah. Also, I think the difference between EMS and MS here is EMS removes the strain and pain, but EMS making them physically stronger than MS? It only bolsters one's ocular power somewhat and makes it possible for someone to use Complete Body Susanoo. Who says it makes their physical stats far superior to MS?
 
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