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Then it should be fine lol, as long as we separate the tiers.
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Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)
- Thread starter LordTracer
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- #843
We will. V1 A will just scale higher than his base, which is 7-A.
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Well some people agreed on that.
Personally I still have some issues with it but I'm out of time tonight.
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I mean, Damage, KingTempest, Shrek, and many others have voiced their disagreements on MANY things and it resulted in fruitful debates that for the most part came out with decent results, so no, it does matter. You're the one who's refusing to look at the arguments rn, and just disagreeing for the sake of it.
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yes, I am disagreeing for the sake of it. I think you didn't see or is just pretending to be blind, the times I argued a lot of why scaling ninjas to Bijū would result in a inconsistent scaling. But whatever, do whatever you guys want, without staff approval this can't be applied
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Baseless accusations won't do your "argument" any favors.
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Do you think I am arguing something?
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No, I really don't. You haven't made any real arguments, and that's exactly the issue.
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Imma just say my own. @M3X I understand you frustration 2000% percent.
Gaara and Shukaku are the only 2 known sand users in the entire SERIES.
Nobody else in the show uses sand except Naruto (now that he has Shukaku) and Bunpuku (that old guy from Shukaku's flashback).
I'm hypothesizing that Rasa only knows of 1 user of the sand with that proficiency, Shukaku.
Heck, Naruto called the flying raijin Minato's move and he said Tobirama has it. Does it mean they have the same potency?
No.
Power ≠ strength, that's the hugest stretch ever.
Didn't his armor get hit by a regular chidori from Sasuke... the same chidori that matched Naruto's rasengan, which, while in the future, and bigger, couldn't break a Susanoo ribcage... while the 8 tails contributed at least 1/9th of damage to a 10x boosted (from Sage) Madara's stronger Susanoo?
Naruto's Base Rasengan > Sasuke's Chidori > A's Dura > A's Cutting Power > Gyuki's Dura ≥ Gyuki's Striking Strength > 1/9th of Sage Susanoo Dura ≥ Regular Susanoo Dura ≥ Enhanced Ay Punch > Regular A Punch...
But Madara's Ribcage > Ultra Big Ball Rasengan > Regular ass Rasengan right...
There's a thing in this world called common sense and outliers.
Damage already said the Gaara counter, which was countered with "why would he think it's Shukaku then?".
Gaara and Shukaku are the only 2 known sand users in the entire SERIES.
Nobody else in the show uses sand except Naruto (now that he has Shukaku) and Bunpuku (that old guy from Shukaku's flashback).
I'm hypothesizing that Rasa only knows of 1 user of the sand with that proficiency, Shukaku.
Heck, Naruto called the flying raijin Minato's move and he said Tobirama has it. Does it mean they have the same potency?
No.
Power ≠ strength, that's the hugest stretch ever.
That's like saying somebody covered in armor has the same feats as a knife made with the same material. If it's enhanced, it's enhanced. You can't just say "he has the cutting power, so it should have the striking power too". if I stab you with a sword then hit you with the side of it, which one will do more damage?
Didn't his armor get hit by a regular chidori from Sasuke... the same chidori that matched Naruto's rasengan, which, while in the future, and bigger, couldn't break a Susanoo ribcage... while the 8 tails contributed at least 1/9th of damage to a 10x boosted (from Sage) Madara's stronger Susanoo?
Naruto's Base Rasengan > Sasuke's Chidori > A's Dura > A's Cutting Power > Gyuki's Dura ≥ Gyuki's Striking Strength > 1/9th of Sage Susanoo Dura ≥ Regular Susanoo Dura ≥ Enhanced Ay Punch > Regular A Punch...
But Madara's Ribcage > Ultra Big Ball Rasengan > Regular ass Rasengan right...
There's a thing in this world called common sense and outliers.
I'll counter that 6-C base Madara point in the next comment.
Durability negation is a thing. He has dura negation on his profile with Dust Release.
That's not dura that's endurance.
Can someone please quantify how much energy it would take to melt chakra? Melting is just speeding up molecules.
What feats does his fire style, that was countered by FODDER, have?
You have no explanation on why his striking strength is 6-C outside of "it should be".
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Quick scaling counter.
Madara was island level in base for taking Naruto's striking strength which should be equal to a bijuudama correct?
Damage said this.
UC69 said this.
"This example doesn't apply here at all because we've seen that TBBs are comparable to the Biju's physically even without exploding. Here we see that the Mokuton that was restraining Kurama physically was destroyed by a TBB without exploding. This is relevant because it proves that TBBs can be used as "battering rams" of sorts, that are comparable to the physicals of the Bijuu in question."
The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count. We see Killer B destroy in the same scan I sent rip through it because it stopped absorbing his power, so the only counter to that, no.
So what I need from someone ASAP is to prove that a non exploding Bijuudama = an exploding bijuudama. If you can accurately prove this, then Naruto's striking strength would equal 6-C which would correlate to Madara, which I know for a fact that that's not the case.
Hashirama's wood golem could catch a bijuudama from Kurama before it explodes.
When it explodes, it destroys the SAME EXACT thing that held and caught it. I can tell it was destroyed since we don't see it anymore.
So that crumbles your entire scaling argument for 6-C Kage and base Madara.
So we need to prove that a mass of chakra = the explosion after.
The "it should be's" and the "that makes no sense" doesn't apply here.
This is the root of the entire argument. Fix the root, and the tree stays in place.
Madara was island level in base for taking Naruto's striking strength which should be equal to a bijuudama correct?
Damage said this.
Nobody countered this point successfully OR accurately.
UC69 said this.
"This example doesn't apply here at all because we've seen that TBBs are comparable to the Biju's physically even without exploding. Here we see that the Mokuton that was restraining Kurama physically was destroyed by a TBB without exploding. This is relevant because it proves that TBBs can be used as "battering rams" of sorts, that are comparable to the physicals of the Bijuu in question."
The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count. We see Killer B destroy in the same scan I sent rip through it because it stopped absorbing his power, so the only counter to that, no.
So what I need from someone ASAP is to prove that a non exploding Bijuudama = an exploding bijuudama. If you can accurately prove this, then Naruto's striking strength would equal 6-C which would correlate to Madara, which I know for a fact that that's not the case.
Hashirama's wood golem could catch a bijuudama from Kurama before it explodes.
When it explodes, it destroys the SAME EXACT thing that held and caught it. I can tell it was destroyed since we don't see it anymore.
So that crumbles your entire scaling argument for 6-C Kage and base Madara.
So we need to prove that a mass of chakra = the explosion after.
The "it should be's" and the "that makes no sense" doesn't apply here.
This is the root of the entire argument. Fix the root, and the tree stays in place.
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I’ll respond to this shortly.
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I’ll concede on Rasa’s statement, but that doesn’t change that Gaara explicitly stated he was Shukaku’s equal and could hold back chains from the Gedō Mazō that could previous drag Gyūki to the ground.
Depends on where you stab and depends on how hard you hit. And you can’t exactly compare ordinary metal to lightning chakra.
Okay, you’re ignoring context here. Sasuke was blind and incapable of using his MS when Naruto matched him. The Sasuke that fought A =/= the Sasuke that was getting knocked around by Kakashi and matched by Naruto. Also that’s V1 A. Not V2. So again, ignoring context.
There’s also a thing called context. Don’t get snappy when you’re ignoring that.
Yes, I know. I’m pretty sure I said this.
The definition of melting is; “The action or process of liquefying due to heat.” If she can do that to Madara’s Susano’o, she would scale to it. There’s literally no reason why she wouldn’t, and literally any other character on the wiki would scale to something for melting it with their own power.
Madara’s Katon would scale to his AP, like literally everyone else on the wiki. We don’t scale every single jutsu differently from the user, man, that’s just not how it works. If you’re trying to use that, what, do you think Madara’s Katon should be 7-C now?
Are... are you serious? Madara is 6-C, his Susano’o is stronger, so his Susano’o is 6-C. For someone talking about “common sense,” you weren’t using a lot of it in that reply. Unless you think the Susano’o is weaker than base Madara?
Great reply, totally necessary, helpful and adds to your argument.
No. That is incorrect. Madara blocked and overpowered KCM2 Naruto, who casually swatted five Bijuudama away. The argument was never that he’s “equal to a Bijuudama.”
Madara himself says otherwise. “Previously held down my Nine-Tails.” So yeah, the thing was restraining him.
Funny thing, I already gave several examples of this. There a reason you didn’t respond to those, hm?
That is a blatant lie. In the page right before this one, what do we see opening to reveal Hashirama? That’s right, the face of his Wood Golem. You did this same thing earlier where you tried to claim B’s tentacle restrained A when A escaped it in the literal next page.
Was already done, you just somehow didn’t see it.
This was never the argument, and the fact that you think this is what the argument was is concerning.
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Equals: a person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.
Equals doesn't always mean strength, he meant that he didn't look at him as a pet or an obstacle to his sleep.
Unless they stab a sharp part that's equal to the sharp blade of chakra that A used to cut Gyuki, then it doesn't matter.
Dojutsu doesn't raise chakra potency. Sasuke's 2 & 3 tomoe sharingan had the same strength, just different timing in attacks. Dojutsu never raised chakra potency unless it's the chakra mode like tenseigan. All it does is give extra abilities. We were told everything about the Sharingan and Mangekyo, stat boost was never one of them.
Please identify which version of Lightning Chakra Mode A used in here. Looks like V1. And where was it stated that it boosted dura? All it said it did was allow him to use body flicker.
- ΔT is the change in temperature; the starting temperature will usually be a reasonable room temperature unless there is a reason why the temperature would begin hot or cold in the calculation, the final temperature will usually be either melting point, freezing point, boiling point, or (if a burnable material is present) the auto-ignition temperature or burning material; this is measured in kelvin.
Fire Release: Great Fire Annihilation, known in the wiki and databook as the pinnacle of fire release, what he used on the fodder ninja. Fire Release: Great Fire Destruction didn't even get it's own page in the databook, what he used against Mei. Not all jutsu and abilities scale the same. If Madara spits mad fast should it be 6-C too?
I argued against 6-C Madara in the next post. Please read the entire thing before you argue.
Please inform me on why he's island level in base.
We see the instance of him holding him down. We see Killer B, a victim of the jutsu, describe it as absorbing his chakra, which is consistent with wood style as it suppressed Naruto's chakra while Naruto was training with Yamato. You basically just said "The bullet didn't burn him, it gave him burns".
Lemme go look since you didn't want to tell me where
Where's the body? Where's the place that held the bijuudama? Would Hashirama not protect himself on the head of the beast? Look at him using the seal of confrontation when he sees the bijuudama about to explode. He obviously protected himself.
Gotta go look.
That was for the others who countered. I'm not just arguing with you, I'm arguing with your point and everyone that agrees with it.
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I reiterate Gaara holding back chains that could drag Gyūki to the ground for a prolonged period of time.
Hold on, who are you referring to with ‘they?’
Mangekyō is stronger than normal Sharingan. Eternal Mangekyō is stronger than normal Mangekyō. Madara became more powerful than his blind self after gaining one Rinnegan. This was a pretty major plot point, how did you not remember this? So yeah, blind Taka Sasuke is much weaker than Taka Sasuke with his MS activated.
So... do you think base Hebi Sasuke is equal to MS Sasuke then?
You can’t really claim that considering that V1 and V2 are identical. Although if you use that common sense thing you were talking about earlier, A has no reason to not use his strongest form against a whole ass Bijuu. Let alone the second strongest one.
Durability is comparable to AP. That’s how things are done on the site unless the source material explicitly says otherwise.
It scales to the durability of the Susano’o. You can’t exactly calculate her melting chakra, so you use what requires the least assumptions and say that it scales to the Susano’o’s durability. If the Susano’o was made of rock, metal, or some tangible material, then you could talk about calcing.
And your point is? Again, do you want Madara’s Katon to be 7-C or something? Unless a jutsu is explicitly stronger than the caster, it scales to the user. That’s how things are done and how they’ve been done.
You asked why the Susano’o is 6-C. Madara being 6-C was already accepted, so logically the Susano’o would also be accepted at 6-C as well. Don’t get sarcastic when you couldn’t figure out something that obvious, mate.
I did. My post literally explains that. Madara yeeted KCM2 Naruto, who smacked away five Bijuudama. The argument was never that he’s equal to a Bijuudama.
You claimed the Wood Dragon didn’t hold him down, which is a blatant lie. So again, Wood Dragon was restraining Kurama and a non-exploded Bijuudama could break it.
Considering how you were able to find UchihaSlayer’s post, which was before mine, I’d assume you’d have seen it.
I never said Hashirama didn’t protect himself? What point are you trying to make here? I said that Hashirama’s Wood Golem was still there, as that was where he was shielding himself, since you claimed the Wood Golem wasn’t there anymore.
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I’ll repost this so you don’t have to scroll. The Majestic Attire Bijuudama were shattering Sage Hashirama’s True Several Thousand Hands, without exploding. The True Several Thousand Hands are made of the same Mokuton that Hashirama used to protect himself from the explosion of Kurama’s Bijuudama. Also in the first scan, you see that when the Bijuudama does explode, Hashirama’s statue is still standing with minimal to no damage.
So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions.
So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions.
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Yeah, basically my thoughts on Hashirama and Madara is
Edo Base Hashirama < Alive Base Hashirama < Edo SM Hashirama < Alive SM Hashirama
Edo EMS Madara < Alive EMS Madara < Edo Rinnegan Madara < Alive Rinnegan Madara
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@LordTracer
At least X (Survived being smacked by the Two-Tails, Three-Tails, Four-Tails, Five-Tails, Six-Tails, and Seven-Tails), Y with Sage Mode
Wasn't Madara already in Sage Mode when the Bijuu were smacking him around and when Gaara and Shukaku injured him?
At least X (Survived being smacked by the Two-Tails, Three-Tails, Four-Tails, Five-Tails, Six-Tails, and Seven-Tails), Y with Sage Mode
Wasn't Madara already in Sage Mode when the Bijuu were smacking him around and when Gaara and Shukaku injured him?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Man, I missed a lot.
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Gaara held back chains that could drag and suppress Bijuu, which IIRC, Madara said "once they're on, they won't come off". Nothing says that for Gaara's sand. If Gaara had the same drawback, he would be in the same predicament.
I really don't even know. My point is that A's Cutting ≠ A's Punching and such.
Strength ≠ AP.
You said the eyes are stronger than each other. Users aren't.
They have "stronger" (new) abilities, but their physical stats and previous genjutsu is still the same.
Madara was more powerful via gaining new abilities, not regular and previous stats boosted. Quick Timeline
Madara absorbs Sage Mode From Hashirama, then goes to fight the bijuu. Shukaku binds his movement, allowing him to not block, allowing him to get brutally smacked around by Bijuu 2-7. Shukaku seales him and escapes. He comes and gets crushed by Non Sage Mode KCM Naruto, then they all crush him. He escapes. Zetsu comes and brings him 2 things. 1, a new arm with Hashirama Cells, which boost physical energy, and a rinnegan. He then uses Limbo, which allows him to attack the 9 bijuu off guard since they can't sense him. Nothing says he got stronger based on the Rinnegan.
In physical stats? Yes. In chakra potency? Yes. In perception, no, because of MS hax. In moveset, no because of Amaterasu and Susanoo.
V2's hair sticks up.
A fought the dude who "killed his brother" in his V1 for most of the fight. He decapitated a "tailless tailed beast" who has fought bijuu, in his V1. Half the time he fought Naruto, he was in his V1,
Didn't he cut his own arm off w/ the cloak on? That puts his AP over his Dura.
Good point, it's dumb trying to pull an imaginary argument against you for this one.
Alright
When I asked prior, you said from the Uchiha Reflection with the Gunbai. Then I asked why would it be 6-C, and you said that Naruto had 6-C striking strength based on him smacking away the bijuudama, and it should scale to the force he applied w/ the Super Mini Bijuudama. Madara redirected it and took the recoil back, putting him at 6-C, which was the argument I assumed.
Quote where I said the Wood Dragon didn't hold him down. I said it made him weaker, which forced him to not work at full capacity. Of COURSE it held him down. He bragged about holding a full Kurama to 2 Bijuu. It held him down and made him weaker via absorbing the chakra.
I did command-f then typed in missile to look for whoever quoted Damage's post. I didn't scroll throughout the entire page.
My thought process.
Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama Protecting the area that was destroyed > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.
You said it wasn't destroyed since we see the head.
I said that Hashirama successfully protected himself in the head when he saw it explode, the rest of the body, no, since he was on the ground inside the head that he protected, and not on the same level of altitude as Madara.
Hashirama protecting the head > Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama protecting it > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.
"I’ll repost this so you don’t have to scroll. The Majestic Attire Bijuudama were shattering Sage Hashirama’s True Several Thousand Hands, without exploding. The True Several Thousand Hands are made of the same Mokuton that Hashirama used to protect himself from the explosion of Kurama’s Bijuudama. Also in the first scan, you see that when the Bijuudama does explode, Hashirama’s statue is still standing with minimal to no damage. So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions."
I agreed until you put that for regular bijuudama, which couldn't be more wrong.
Hashirama caught a regular bijuudama with a wood golem hand. When Madara did the Evil Disturbance Waltz (the Bijuudama with a sword spinning like a rasenshuriken) the Five Layer Rashomon was destroyed.
That would make the Evil Disturbance Waltz 10x stronger than a regular bijuudama, since a regular bijuudama pre explosion was casually caught by a Wood Golem, but Sage mode (10x multiplier) wood release couldn't withstand it.
Same wood that protected it by your words.
Evil Disturbance Waltz > Sage Mode Wood Release ≥ 10x Regular Wood Release > Hashirama in base protecting himself from the explosion > Bijuudama that exploded > Hashirama in base not protecting the other portion of the body that was destroyed > Bijuudama that wasn't exploded.
So no, a non exploding bijuudama does not have similar potency to a bijuudama that has exploded. Feats have shown it.
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I wouldn't even say it increases combat speed. It would just allow you to strike earlier, or at least in the words of Sasuke from 2 tomoe to 3.
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Yeah. Also, I think the difference between EMS and MS here is EMS removes the strain and pain, but EMS making them physically stronger than MS? It only bolsters one's ocular power somewhat and makes it possible for someone to use Complete Body Susanoo. Who says it makes their physical stats far superior to MS?
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I would need that ASAP
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I don't think so, the one with Tobirama I think
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