Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

[Padaruyos]

I found this statement from Black Zetsu which at the time is possessing Obito in the Kamui Dimension.

"Even with just this left one, it's chakra and eye power was so strong that I almost lost myself. I'm not even the original owner, and I could still do all this."

 

[Padaruyos]

This?

Ah dang it I got ninja'd

 

[Kin201]

I don't think so, the one with Tobirama I think

My scan seems like it says it gave Obito a massive chakra boost and ocular powers to the point that he almost lost himself though.

this statement from Black Zetsu

"Even with just this left one, it's chakra and eye power was so strong that I almost lost myself. I'm not even the original owner, and I could still do all this."

Lol I think this statement is from Obito.

 

[Padaruyos]

Yeah different translation lol. But both of them does state that the Rinnegan gives really potent chakra, which might also increase physical strength and general ninjutsu power.

 

[Kin201]

However, that statement is for Rinnegan. I'm not sure if it can apply for MS or EMS as well and I think it doesn't.

 

[Damage3245]

I’ll repost this so you don’t have to scroll. The Majestic Attire Bijuudama were shattering Sage Hashirama’s True Several Thousand Hands, without exploding. The True Several Thousand Hands are made of the same Mokuton that Hashirama used to protect himself from the explosion of Kurama’s Bijuudama. Also in the first scan, you see that when the Bijuudama does explode, Hashirama’s statue is still standing with minimal to no damage.

So yeah, Bijuudama without exploding can cause similar damage to their explosions.

They are not typical Bijuudama. They have Madara's Perfect Susano'o swords running through them.

 

[Padaruyos]

They are not typical Bijuudama. They have Madara's Perfect Susano'o swords running through them.

It could've been Madara using Susano'o Swords + Bijuudama Barrage combo to quickly destroy Hasirama's avatar.

 

[Padaruyos]

I mean, how does Madara's Susano'o swords running through them affects the Bijuudama itself? It's still fired by Kurama, just encased in a Susano'o and is mind-controlled.

 

[Damage3245]

@Padaruyos; having a rapidly spinning blade on the Bijuudama transforms it from something like a punch to something like a buzzsaw.

Hashirama's golem can catch the Bijuudama by itself (though it is destroyed by the explosion) but with the buzzsaw sword running through it, the golems get ripped to shreds.

 

[Padaruyos]

@Padaruyos; having a rapidly spinning blade on the Bijuudama transforms it from something like a punch to something like a buzzsaw.

Hashirama's golem can catch the Bijuudama by itself (though it is destroyed by the explosion) but with the buzzsaw sword running through it, the golems get ripped to shreds.

Oh right, after closer inspection the Bijuudama kinda looks like a Bijuudama Rasenshuriken.

 

[Padaruyos]

Wait what's Kurama's tier supposed to be? (By himself and not with a Jinchuuriki.)

 

[Damage3245]

Wait what's Kurama's tier supposed to be? (By himself and not with a Jinchuuriki.)

At full power he is Low 6-B IIRC.

 

[Padaruyos]

Wait, if Madara's Perfect Susano'o is High 6-A, why would he use Kurama, a Low 6-B to boost the power of his Susano'o? Kurama is hundreds of times weaker than Madara's Perfect Susano'o.

 

[Padaruyos]

Shouldn't Kurama and Madara's Perfect Susano'o be comparable in power to be worth summoning Kurama? If Kurama is vastly weaker then why would he use Majestic Attire Susano'o?

 

[Damage3245]

Wait, if Madara's Perfect Susano'o is High 6-A, why would he use Kurama, a Low 6-B to boost the power of his Susano'o? Kurama is hundreds of times weaker than Madara's Perfect Susano'o.

I really doubt Madara's Perfect Susano'o is going to remain at that rating with these new revisions.

 

[Metalija]

About Rasa, ignore his statements. The fact that Gaara matched his sand and defeated him, and Rasa fought and defeated Shukaku means that Gaara scales to Shukaku.

 

[Damage3245]

To be fair Shukaku is the only one of the Tailed Beasts who hasn't been seen performing a 6-C Biju Bomb.

 

[Metalija]

Whatever tier Shukaku is, Gaara scales. It does not have to be 6-C.

 

[Kin201]

Shukaku is a tailed beast. Of course, he is capable of BijuuBomb. And Rasa may not scale to Bijuu Bomb.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

To be fair Shukaku is the only one of the Tailed Beasts who hasn't been seen performing a 6-C Biju Bomb.

Well, he was the only one who didn't have an Edo Jinchūriki for Obito to control him through, so it was more circumstantial than anything imo.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wait, if Madara's Perfect Susano'o is High 6-A, why would he use Kurama, a Low 6-B to boost the power of his Susano'o? Kurama is hundreds of times weaker than Madara's Perfect Susano'o.

Like Damage said, it's highly unlikely that the Susano'o will remain High 6-A, so that won't be an issue anymore. They'll both likely be in a similar ballpark after all is said and done.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Quote where I said the Wood Dragon didn't hold him down. I said it made him weaker, which forced him to not work at full capacity. Of COURSE it held him down. He bragged about holding a full Kurama to 2 Bijuu. It held him down and made him weaker via absorbing the chakra.

Yes, it absorbs chakra and weakens them over time, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be physically comparable to them in order to hold them down in the first place.
Besides, here we see Bee say that the constriction's getting weaker (after Madara got momentarily incapacitated by Guy's Hirodura), and he then breaks out. He didn't say it stopped absorbing chakra, he said it got weaker. Also, Bijuu have such ludicrous amounts of chakra that they won't run out quickly even if they get drained of a large amount quickly. We've seen this when Naruto achieved KCM, taking a sizeable portion of Kurama's chakra, he still had enough chakra to create a massive TBB.
We also see it happen in the Bee vs Kisame fight when Kisame kept absorbing Bee's chakra, yet he kept transforming over and over without much hindrance. This was because Kisame had an absorption cap/limit of sorts, so unless we can find out the Wood Dragon's absorption rate and limit, we won't be able to determine how much and how fast it was draining chakra. Which only leaves us with the safest assumption, which is that the dragon was holding them down physically while it was draining them over time (which wouldn't weaken them immediately).

Also I'd like to point out that my original argument was NOT to scale the non-exploding TBB to its explosion, but rather to a Bijuu's physicals.

 

[LordTracer]

@LordTracer

At least X (Survived being smacked by the Two-Tails, Three-Tails, Four-Tails, Five-Tails, Six-Tails, and Seven-Tails), Y with Sage Mode

Wasn't Madara already in Sage Mode when the Bijuu were smacking him around and when Gaara and Shukaku injured him?

Did I not put that in the Sage Mode justification? My bad.

 

[Padaruyos]

Like Damage said, it's highly unlikely that the Susano'o will remain High 6-A, so that won't be an issue anymore. They'll both likely be in a similar ballpark after all is said and done.

The solution is obviously putting Kurama at High 6-A

Jokes aside, how did Madara get High 6-A Perfect Susano'o in the first place anyway?

 

[Metalija]

Because SM Hashirama was rated High 6-A, so Madaras PS was rated the same since he can fight him with it.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The solution is obviously putting Kurama at High 6-A

Jokes aside, how did Madara get High 6-A Perfect Susano'o in the first place anyway?

Alive EMS: Multi-Continent level with Susano'o and Majestic Attire: Susano'o (Should not be weaker than his Edo form. Can combine Kurama and his Perfect Susano'o together to increase their effectiveness and damaged Hashirama's Shin Sūsenju)

Multi-Continent level with Perfect Susano'o (Tanked Kurama's Bijuudama without any damage, and Hashirama's Shinsuusenju could only partially destroy it), higher with Majestic Attire: Susano'o

Edo Rinnegan: Multi-Continent level with Perfect Susano'o (Held off Sage Mode Hashirama)

Multi-Continent level with Perfect Susano'o (Held off Sage Hashirama)

Basically, it was assumed that most of Hashirama's SM Mokuton are equal to the Deity Gates Feat.

 

[Padaruyos]

So Hashirama after the revisions won't have High 6-A AP? (Only with certain techniques, I assume.)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm not sure if the Deity Gates themselves should even be High 6-A if I'm being honest. It's a sealing Jutsu, so why would it have AP at all? I thought Sealing was considered hax.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So Hashirama after the revisions won't have High 6-A AP? (Only with certain techniques, I assume.)

Most likely, yea.

 

[Padaruyos]

Maybe because it physically restrained the Juubi? It's more like dropping a giant weight on the Juubi's body rather than the run of the mill sealing Jutsu.

 

[LordTracer]

Gaara held back chains that could drag and suppress Bijuu, which IIRC, Madara said "once they're on, they won't come off". Nothing says that for Gaara's sand. If Gaara had the same drawback, he would be in the same predicament.

The chains aren’t what’s shown to be binding the Bijuu’s chakra though. It’s the thing on the end (I really don’t know what they’d be called lol) that’s stabbing into them. None of the Bijuu had those with Madara, he was just dragging them in, so the chains would still be Bijuu level. Also the chains having a lingering effect isn’t really a point against Gaara.

I really don't even know. My point is that A's Cutting ≠ A's Punching and such.

Well, both were equally ineffective against Madara so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Strength ≠ AP.
You said the eyes are stronger than each other. Users aren't.
They have "stronger" (new) abilities, but their physical stats and previous genjutsu is still the same.

I disagree immensely.

Zetsu comes and brings him 2 things. 1, a new arm with Hashirama Cells, which boost physical energy, and a rinnegan.

Scans on Hashirama Cells boosting physical strength?

He then uses Limbo, which allows him to attack the 9 bijuu off guard since they can't sense him. Nothing says he got stronger based on the Rinnegan.

Pre-Rinnegan Madara = Got slapped around by the Bijuu.
Post-Rinnegan Madara = One-shot all the Bijuu.

Yeah, he pretty clearly got stronger. Also later on, One-Eyed Juubidara got bodied by cloakless SPSM Naruto and easily chopped in half by Rinnegan Sasuke, but Two-Eyed Juubidara could match SPSM Naruto (with his cloak) in combat.

Also Itachi constantly told Sasuke that he’d need a Mangekyō Sharingan to be able to fight him, meaning that MS > base Sharingan, MS Izuna was relative to MS Madara, Tobirama was relative to Izuna, but EMS Madara is stronger than Tobirama. EMS Sasuke has much better feats and scaling than MS Sasuke, such as being around the same level as KCM Naruto (who we established is stronger than Sage Mode/KN6, which is stronger than Hebi Sasuke) and Edo Itachi. Obito blatantly stated that superior eyes increase the user’s chakra, since the Rinnegan had so much that he started to lose himself. Someone posted that earlier in the thread.

V2's hair sticks up.

Ehhhhh... not always. Even when it stuck up against Sasuke, there were times where it still appeared to be down.

A fought the dude who "killed his brother" in his V1 for most of the fight. He decapitated a "tailless tailed beast" who has fought bijuu, in his V1. Half the time he fought Naruto, he was in his V1,

That’s fair, I’ll give you that one.

Didn't he cut his own arm off w/ the cloak on? That puts his AP over his Dura.

No, he was in base at the time. Also I’m pretty sure the site treats situations like that as AP = dura, and the character being able to harm people on that level of durability. That’s why a lot of characters have “Can fight those who can harm them” as their AP justification. I would also like to note that A doesn’t seem all that bothered about Amaterasu, the same Amaterasu that later had Gyūki screaming in pain.

Good point, it's dumb trying to pull an imaginary argument against you for this one.

Yeah, like I said, you’d have a completely fair point if it was made out of metal or something. But we can’t really quantify melting chakra lol.

When I asked prior, you said from the Uchiha Reflection with the Gunbai. Then I asked why would it be 6-C, and you said that Naruto had 6-C striking strength based on him smacking away the bijuudama, and it should scale to the force he applied w/ the Super Mini Bijuudama. Madara redirected it and took the recoil back, putting him at 6-C, which was the argument I assumed.

Yeah, but that’s not him being equal to a Bijuudama, it’s Naruto being superior to five Bijuudama.

Quote where I said the Wood Dragon didn't hold him down.

The wood dragon was draining Kurama's power. It wasn't just holding him down, it was making him weaker, so that doesn't count.

That was my bad, I didn’t see that you said it’s wasn’t just holding him down.

It held him down and made him weaker via absorbing the chakra.

Bijuu are big masses of chakra, and Hashirama wasn’t holding Kurama for that long. He wouldn’t have been massively weakened.

Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama Protecting the area that was destroyed > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.
You said it wasn't destroyed since we see the head.
I said that Hashirama successfully protected himself in the head when he saw it explode, the rest of the body, no, since he was on the ground inside the head that he protected, and not on the same level of altitude as Madara.

Hashirama protecting the head > Exploding Bijuudama > Wood Golem's Dura w/out Hashirama protecting it > Pre Exploded Bijuudama.

Hashirama didn’t protect the head though? He protected himself inside the head. The Wood Golem’s head just straight-up tanked the explosion.

Hashirama caught a regular bijuudama with a wood golem hand. When Madara did the Evil Disturbance Waltz (the Bijuudama with a sword spinning like a rasenshuriken) the Five Layer Rashomon was destroyed.

That would make the Evil Disturbance Waltz 10x stronger than a regular bijuudama, since a regular bijuudama pre explosion was casually caught by a Wood Golem, but Sage mode (10x multiplier) wood release couldn't withstand it.

Uh, no. Hashirama was not in Sage Mode at that point. The Five Layer Rashomon was placed while Hashirama was in base. So your argument kinda crumbles at that point. Also you didn’t address how Hashirama’s statue no-sold the explosion of a Bijuudama yet the Bijuudama without exploding (and without a Susano’o blade shoved in them) were destroying the True Several Thousand Hands.

 

[Padaruyos]

Also Hashirama dropped multiple gates on Juubito in an attempt to immobilize him. Stacking the gates probably isn't effective if the Jutsu is pure hax.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Maybe because it physically restrained the Juubi? It's more like dropping a giant weight on the Juubi's body rather than the run of the mill sealing Jutsu.

I mean even then, it's just something he can summon, so it really has no relation to his Mokuton techniques.
Wouldn't it just be treated akin to something like a Summoning jutsu or Kushina's chains?

 

[Padaruyos]

Yeah it's more akin to a summoning Jutsu. Senpo: Myojinmon is completely unrelated to Mokuton.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean even then, it's just something he can summon, so it really has no relation to his Mokuton techniques.
Wouldn't it just be treated akin to something like a Summoning jutsu or Kushina's chains?

Well, if it was treated like Kushina’s chains, he’d still get an AP rating for that. It’d just be separate from his physicals stats.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, that's fine of course. The potency of the Gates should still be mentioned in his profile, but I don't think it should have any bearing on his Mokuton's AP.

 

[Padaruyos]

https://kiyoitsukikage.tumblr.com/image/147352847204 The Deity Gates is stated to imbue the targets with natural energy to immobilize the targets. So while the gates slamming the Juubi to the ground might be an AP feat, the act of keeping the Juubi immobilized likely isn't an AP feat.

 

[Padaruyos]

Personally I think the Deity Gates and Hashirama's more advanced Mokuton is around the same level of power since they both required Sage Mode to be active when using the Jutsu.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

That apparently only applies to the "Seal Head" that was restraining the Juubi's head. The only ones holding down his tails seem to just be physically holding him in place.

 

[Kin201]

We came to a consensus that CS2 is 10 times stronger than CS1. But do we have proof that Sharingan, MS, EMS grants its user a massive chakra boost and drastically increases their physical stats or that is just an assumption? For example, Taka Sasuke did absolutely zero damage to Bee with a kick and if he was having his MS activated, would that kick did more damage?

Edit: Taka Sasuke.