Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

[Damage3245]

Simply holding the Juubi down doesn't seem like it would require High 6-A AP though. Just more lifting strength than it.

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, it absorbs chakra and weakens them over time, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be physically comparable to them in order to hold them down in the first place.
Besides, here we see Bee say that the constriction's getting weaker (after Madara got momentarily incapacitated by Guy's Hirodura), and he then breaks out. He didn't say it stopped absorbing chakra, he said it got weaker. Also, Bijuu have such ludicrous amounts of chakra that they won't run out quickly even if they get drained of a large amount quickly. We've seen this when Naruto achieved KCM, taking a sizeable portion of Kurama's chakra, he still had enough chakra to create a massive TBB.
We also see it happen in the Bee vs Kisame fight when Kisame kept absorbing Bee's chakra, yet he kept transforming over and over without much hindrance. This was because Kisame had an absorption cap/limit of sorts, so unless we can find out the Wood Dragon's absorption rate and limit, we won't be able to determine how much and how fast it was draining chakra. Which only leaves us with the safest assumption, which is that the dragon was holding them down physically while it was draining them over time (which wouldn't weaken them immediately).

Yamato shares the technique, so we can refer to him to see how quick it takes him to nullify nine-tails chakra. I'll put some extra stuff.
Orochimaru says Hashirama had complete control over a bijuu.
Madara says his wood dragon is Hashirama's, and even though that doesn't necessarily mean potency, it means he's either equal to or a little weaker.
Yamato confirms he doesn't have the amount of power to forcibly suppress Kurama's chakra.
Madara's wood dragon ≤ Hashirama's wood dragon >>>>>>> Yamato's ninjutsu.
Yamato nullified Naruto's 4 tails mode in seconds.
Madara put Naruto on the ground to immediately wail right off the bat.
And in case you still believe it's just super slow, Naruto was there for a long ass period of time, and he was able to break out with what I'm assuming is body flicker (because of the flash).
So yes, it would weaken them immediately. And since Hashirama had direct contact to the bijuu, not just a jinchuriki, it should've been much more critical than just it going through a vessel.

Also I'd like to point out that my original argument was NOT to scale the non-exploding TBB to its explosion, but rather to a Bijuu's physicals.

I understand, and we ended up going to Kurama's bijuudama against Hashirama to support/counter that.

 

[Padaruyos]

So either the gates is ridiculously heavy or Juubi just have crap Lifting Strength lmao.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@KingTempest

Except Yamato suppressed KN4 with a sealing jutsu, NOT just Mokuton. And KN4 is nothing like the full Kyuubi, as Kurama was still sealed.

As for Madara vs BM Naruto, there was a prolonged struggle before Naruto fell out of BM, it was not nearly as immediate as you claim.

Also, Naruto didn't break out of the wood dragon, he sent out a clone.

 

[LordTracer]

But do we have proof that Sharingan, MS, EMS grants its user a massive chakra boost and drastically increases their physical stats or that is just an assumption?

EMS Sasuke was on par with KCM and Edo Itachi (who is on par with Edo Nagato). MS Sasuke got folded by V1 B, while V2 B didn’t even damage a sickly Nagato with a punch.

If you assumed that stronger eyes =/= stronger user, then EMS Sasuke would only be on par with base Naruto, which isn’t the case based on his feats.

 

[Metalija]

Yeah Sasuke got a massive boost in power in the war arc even in base. So either gaining EMS buffed him considerably or he just got stronger for no reason.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What does the Juubi's lifting strength scale to?

 

[LordTracer]

What does the Juubi's lifting strength scale to?

I think there’s gonna be a lifting strength revision happening eventually, so this might change. But at the moment, it’s Class T.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Could we scale the AP of the deity gates to the Juubi's lifting strength?

 

[Padaruyos]

Could we scale the AP of the deity gates to the Juubi's lifting strength?

As far as I know, no? I guess? Not really sure. The thing is you can't really find how strong the Lifting Strength of a character is just by judging their AP. And besides, we don't really know how heavy is the Deity Gates, all we know is that it's heavy enough to pin the Juubi down.

 

[KingTempest]

The chains aren’t what’s shown to be binding the Bijuu’s chakra though. It’s the thing on the end (I really don’t know what they’d be called lol) that’s stabbing into them. None of the Bijuu had those with Madara, he was just dragging them in, so the chains would still be Bijuu level. Also the chains having a lingering effect isn’t really a point against Gaara.

I think you mean the rods, and no, it's the chains too. We can visibly see aura coming off of the chains.

Well, both were equally ineffective against Madara so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A never tried to cut him. All he did was punch and chop drop kick.

I disagree immensely.

Where does it say otherwise? At least for sharingan?

Scans on Hashirama Cells boosting physical strength?

I stated physical energy, but same thing. Right here.

Pre-Rinnegan Madara = Got slapped around by the Bijuu.
Post-Rinnegan Madara = One-shot all the Bijuu.

They were both off guard in both instances.
First they stopped Madara's movement so they could harm him.
Next he attacked them while they couldn't sense him. Matatabi said "we have to get rea-" then got smacked.

Yeah, he pretty clearly got stronger. Also later on, One-Eyed Juubidara got bodied by cloakless SPSM Naruto and easily chopped in half by Rinnegan Sasuke, but Two-Eyed Juubidara could match SPSM Naruto (with his cloak) in combat.

Are we reading the same manga?

He absorbed the God Tree literally right after, then, still with 1 Rinnegan, he smacked Naruto out of mid air with his limbo. Then he gets cut by a Six Paths cutting attack, while he's trying to figure out how to use Kamui.

He comes back with 2 Rinnegan in chapter 676, then his 2 Rinnegan'ed clones match Naruto's clones in taijutsu.

Also Itachi constantly told Sasuke that he’d need a Mangekyō Sharingan to be able to fight him, meaning that MS > base Sharingan,

For the extra abilities and better perception... not for taijutsu and speed... did Sasuke not fight him with a regular sharingan? So that's headassery.

MS Izuna was relative to MS Madara, Tobirama was relative to Izuna, but EMS Madara is stronger than Tobirama.

He got a perfect Susanoo and the Nine Tails.

EMS Sasuke has much better feats and scaling than MS Sasuke, such as being around the same level as KCM Naruto (who we established is stronger than Sage Mode/KN6, which is stronger than Hebi Sasuke) and Edo Itachi.

Now just EMS Sasuke being = to KCM Naruto.
Better feats such as? Physical feats? All he did was spam Blaze Release which was a perk to getting EMS. His regular chidori was not shown to be boosted, he wasn't shown to be faster.
His physical was not shown to be boosted.
He kept up with a tired KCM1.5 Naruto in regular running speed without Naruto using the body flicker (which makes him the fastest thing alive at that point in time).
If you wanna say against Juubito, no. He had Jugo's nature energy helping him.
So what showed his previous stats were boosted? I don't mean new moves that he could spam (since he got EMS he didn't even use lightning style), I mean stats boosted from before.

Obito blatantly stated that superior eyes increase the user’s chakra, since the Rinnegan had so much that he started to lose himself. Someone posted that earlier in the thread.

He never said it boosted or increased chakra. Not once on that page does it say that.
He said the eye's chakra is strong and the ocular powers are strong. Each eye has a specific chakra from the owner.
We already know dojutsu drains crap tons of chakra if it doesn't belong to the owner. Do you think a 3 timed evolved sharingan wouldn't do the same?
Someone pulled some random nonsense out of that and nobody actually looked into it.

Ehhhhh... not always. Even when it stuck up against Sasuke, there were times where it still appeared to be down.

Good point

No, he was in base at the time. Also I’m pretty sure the site treats situations like that as AP = dura, and the character being able to harm people on that level of durability. That’s why a lot of characters have “Can fight those who can harm them” as their AP justification. I would also like to note that A doesn’t seem all that bothered about Amaterasu, the same Amaterasu that later had Gyūki screaming in pain.

Good point about his state.
Amaterasu wasn't touching his body, it was still on his lightning armor so it didn't hurt him. It's like when Sasuke did Amaterasu on Naruto in the last fight, and he didn't even care, he just threw his V1 on and threw it off.

Yeah, but that’s not him being equal to a Bijuudama, it’s Naruto being superior to five Bijuudama.

Technically it's 1 since they didn't all hit him in the same place, but that doesn't matter.

That was my bad, I didn’t see that you said it’s wasn’t just holding him down.

It's cool

Bijuu are big masses of chakra, and Hashirama wasn’t holding Kurama for that long. He wouldn’t have been massively weakened.

Being a big mass of chakra makes it even worse. It's not even like he's suppressing the chakra of a jinchuriki, he's directly suppressing the beast. And check my response to UchihaSlayer.

Hashirama didn’t protect the head though? He protected himself inside the head. The Wood Golem’s head just straight-up tanked the explosion.

So the head is more durable than the rest of the body, which was gone.

Uh, no. Hashirama was not in Sage Mode at that point. The Five Layer Rashomon was placed while Hashirama was in base. So your argument kinda crumbles at that point. Also you didn’t address how Hashirama’s statue no-sold the explosion of a Bijuudama yet the Bijuudama without exploding (and without a Susano’o blade shoved in them) were destroying the True Several Thousand Hands.

When I said the 10x crap I meant the True Several Thousand Hands, not the Rashomon.

We clearly see Susanoo blades in each and every one of them. I cropped it out here for a better view. That was my argument. So no, it still stands.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Yeah, that's fine of course. The potency of the Gates should still be mentioned in his profile, but I don't think it should have any bearing on his Mokuton's AP.

This was what I was trying to pass along in the last page.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If we find the mass of the Deity gates right we can find their PE no?

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest

Except Yamato suppressed KN4 with a sealing jutsu, NOT just Mokuton. And KN4 is nothing like the full Kyuubi, as Kurama was still sealed.

As for Madara vs BM Naruto, there was a prolonged struggle before Naruto fell out of BM, it was not nearly as immediate as you claim.

Also, Naruto didn't break out of the wood dragon, he sent out a clone.

Regardless, Killer B still calls the dragon wood paralysis, which binds biju power.
Paralysis: the loss of the ability to move (and sometimes to feel anything) in part or most of the body, typically as a result of illness, poison, or injury.
So regardless, they are held down.

We see Naruto bite it here. We don't see any more pictures of Naruto except as background for Obito and Kakashi. The page after Naruto is shown again, we see his bijuu mode dissolving.

First Naruto fights against it head on, next time we see it he's cowling. It's not immediate, but we visually see the effects.

And Naruto didn't just make a clone, he did break out. Look at the flash of light via body flicker (at least the fandom says he used body flicker). Naruto only shines that much when he uses it

 

[LordTracer]

I think you mean the rods, and no, it's the chains too. We can visibly see aura coming off of the chains.

Based on the next page, where Naruto is specifically avoiding the rods, it appears more like it’s just those. Yes, there is aura coming from the chains, but contextually it seems like the rods are what have the Bijuu-binding curse marks.

A never tried to cut him. All he did was punch and chop drop kick.

A chop is what he did to slice off Gyūki’s horn. He tried a chop on Madara’s Susano’o ribcage and it did nothing.

I stated physical energy, but same thing. Right here.

Welp, that’s fair then.

They were both off guard in both instances.
First they stopped Madara's movement so they could harm him.
Next he attacked them while they couldn't sense him. Matatabi said "we have to get rea-" then got smacked.

So... if Madara was on-guard, they wouldn’t have been able to smack him around? Is that what you’re implying?

He absorbed the God Tree literally right after, then, still with 1 Rinnegan, he smacked Naruto out of mid air with his limbo

Naruto couldn’t even see the Limbo at that point, he had no way of defending himself against it.

Then he gets cut by a Six Paths cutting attack, while he's trying to figure out how to use Kamui.

So... like I said, Sasuke chopped One-Eyed (Post-Shinju) Madara in half. And then Two-Eyed Madara matched Naruto in combat, showing that Madara got stronger, especially considering that SPSM Naruto was stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke. Also nothing whatsoever says Madara was trying to figure out how to use Kamui.

For the extra abilities and better perception... not for taijutsu and speed... did Sasuke not fight him with a regular sharingan? So that's headassery.

Is there any proof that was what Itachi meant? Also Itachi was literally on his deathbed against Sasuke, he was in relatively good health when he told Sasuke that he needed a Mangekyō to go against him.

He got a perfect Susanoo and the Nine Tails.

And...?

So what showed his previous stats were boosted? I don't mean new moves that he could spam (since he got EMS he didn't even use lightning style), I mean stats boosted from before.

I reiterate, EMS being comparable to KCM and Edo Itachi. Hebi Sasuke was being pressured by Itachi on his deathbed, but EMS Sasuke was on par with Edo Itachi. That blatantly shows that Sasuke got stronger, unless you think Edo Itachi = Deathbed Itachi. And like I said in an earlier post, MS Sasuke got folded by V1 B, V2 B didn’t even damage Edo Nagato, who was on par with KCM Naruto and Edo Itachi, who EMS Sasuke is comparable to.

He kept up with a tired KCM1.5 Naruto in regular running speed without Naruto using the body flicker (which makes him the fastest thing alive at that point in time).

I’m sorry, what? How does Naruto using Shunshin make him the fastest person alive?

If you wanna say against Juubito, no. He had Jugo's nature energy helping him.

I’m aware. I’ve said more than once in this thread that EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto shouldn’t scale to Juubito at all, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He never said it boosted or increased chakra. Not once on that page does it say that.
He said the eye's chakra is strong and the ocular powers are strong. Each eye has a specific chakra from the owner.
We already know dojutsu drains crap tons of chakra if it doesn't belong to the owner. Do you think a 3 timed evolved sharingan wouldn't do the same?
Someone pulled some random nonsense out of that and nobody actually looked into it.

He straight up said that he was losing himself in the chakra of the Rinnegan. And funnily enough, Obito with the Rinnegan has better feats than Obito with his MS. Which further proves my point. Also DMS Kakashi had two Mangekyō Sharingan that didn’t belong to him and he had no drawbacks whatsoever.

Amaterasu wasn't touching his body, it was still on his lightning armor so it didn't hurt him.

Actually it’s on his gauntlet, and you can see the fire touching his finger and hand, so it was touching his body. I can circle it if you can’t see it.

Technically it's 1 since they didn't all hit him in the same place, but that doesn't matter.

He slapped them all away at the same time, so it’d be five.

So the head is more durable than the rest of the body, which was gone.

Why would something created from the same Mokuton be less durable in certain places? Is this said anywhere in the manga? Also we see the body of the Wood Golem still present later, Hashirama was still standing on it. So it wasn’t destroyed by the explosion.

When I said the 10x crap I meant the True Several Thousand Hands, not the Rashomon.

We clearly see Susanoo blades in each and every one of them. I cropped it out here for a better view. That was my argument. So no, it still stands.

Okay, wow, I’m ******* blind apparently. However, we still see Kurama’s Bijuudama Break through the Wood Dragon while the explosion didn’t scathe the Wood Golem. Hashirama’s Mokuton can tank Bijuudama explosions, which we later see again with the Buddha Statue tanking a Majestic Attire Bijuudama explosion.

 

[KingTempest]

Based on the next page, where Naruto is specifically avoiding the rods, it appears more like it’s just those. Yes, there is aura coming from the chains, but contextually it seems like the rods are what have the Bijuu-binding curse marks.

The chains came out of the rods, so...

A chop is what he did to slice off Gyūki’s horn. He tried a chop on Madara’s Susano’o ribcage and it did nothing.

When he did it against Madara he just extended his arm out and fell. When he did it against the Gyuki, he sliced. What he did on Madara was what he did on Sasuke, except he fell instead of slashing. Quick mini scale.
Sasuke's Face & Skin > Lightning Oppression Horizontal > Gyuki's durability.
But wait.
Gyuki's Durability ≥ Version 2 Durability ≥ Version 2 Lariat > Version 1 Lariat > Sasuke's Face & Skin.
So...
Chop used against Madara ≠ Slice used against Gyuki

So... if Madara was on-guard, they wouldn’t have been able to smack him around? Is that what you’re implying?

I have no idea. I won't claim it will or it won't. I'm just saying that's not a good anti-feat.

Naruto couldn’t even see the Limbo at that point, he had no way of defending himself against it.

The same Naruto not even 3 chapters later sensed them and fought it. Naruto could never see limbo, but since Hagoromo, he could sense it and react to it. Naruto could see limbo before that. So nah.

So... like I said, Sasuke chopped One-Eyed (Post-Shinju) Madara in half. And then Two-Eyed Madara matched Naruto in combat, showing that Madara got stronger, especially considering that SPSM Naruto was stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke. Also nothing whatsoever says Madara was trying to figure out how to use Kamui.

What puts Naruto's striking strength above a six paths chidori blade?
Naruto's rasengan (which is his force & striking strength) and Sasuke's chidori (same) couldn't cut through Madara, it just held him. A chidori blade cut him, giving his chidori blade more AP than Naruto's striking strength and a regular chidori.
Naruto couldn't badly damage Madara's limbo (which is still Madara) with the truthseeking orb, while Sasuke cut em in half.

Is there any proof that was what Itachi meant? Also Itachi was literally on his deathbed against Sasuke, he was in relatively good health when he told Sasuke that he needed a Mangekyō to go against him.

Because the first time in the fight he genuinely used the Mangekyo, he used genjutsu, and everybody was shocked that a regular sharingan could break out of Tsukuyomi.

And...?

Your point was that Tobirama = Izuna ~ MS Madara, then EMS Madara > all of before. I said because he got a perfect Susanoo and a Bijuu. which didn't raise his physical stats, just gave him new abilities.

I reiterate, EMS being comparable to KCM and Edo Itachi.

Comparable to KCM with Blaze release. I'm referring to stats boosted by Dojutsu. His stats were never boosted, he just got an entirely new ability. It's like saying "Naruto all over > Kakuzu", no. Naruto got 1 new ability that was over Kakuzu, his other abilities were never boosted. Same w/ Sasuke and his eyes. His stats don't get boosted, he gets new abilities.

Hebi Sasuke was being pressured by Itachi on his deathbed, but EMS Sasuke was on par with Edo Itachi. That blatantly shows that Sasuke got stronger, unless you think Edo Itachi = Deathbed Itachi.

EMS was on par with his Susanoo from using Susanoo, I don't see one taijutsu feat. I'm talking about physical stats and Sasuke's chidori, not Susanoo or blaze release. You keep saying "they're on par" when you're referring to new abilities that his MS and EMS gave him, while I'm referring to physical stats.

And like I said in an earlier post, MS Sasuke got folded by V1 B, V2 B didn’t even damage Edo Nagato, who was on par with KCM Naruto and Edo Itachi, who EMS Sasuke is comparable to.

Comparable w/ physical stats? No. Comparable with a completely new ability? Yes.

I’m sorry, what? How does Naruto using Shunshin make him the fastest person alive?

The raikage is the fastest person alive w/ Shunsin. Naruto dodged him with Shunsin. Out of everyone alive at that point, Naruto was the fastest with shunsin.

He straight up said that he was losing himself in the chakra of the Rinnegan. And funnily enough, Obito with the Rinnegan has better feats than Obito with his MS. Which further proves my point.

MS Obito had to live by 600 billion paper bombs, then he stabbed Konan. Those are his only feats.

Obito with the rinnegan had 6 bijuu helping him, a new mask that couldn't be broken w/out a crazy rasengan, and an ability that nobody knew about.

What feats are you comparing?

Also DMS Kakashi had two Mangekyō Sharingan that didn’t belong to him and he had no drawbacks whatsoever.

Six Paths Chakra.

Actually it’s on his gauntlet, and you can see the fire touching his finger and hand, so it was touching his body. I can circle it if you can’t see it.

I see it now, but that would just count as endurance. He lobbed his arm off and didn't blink.

He slapped them all away at the same time, so it’d be five.

That's not how it works.
You don't put dura or striking strength off of hitting multiple things at the same time. They need to hit the same exact place. If that was the case, he would've been able to slap them all away when they were all combined.

Why would something created from the same Mokuton be less durable in certain places? Is this said anywhere in the manga? Also we see the body of the Wood Golem still present later, Hashirama was still standing on it. So it wasn’t destroyed by the explosion.

Chakra can be rerouted, chakra can boost dura, chakra can be focused in certain places.
Previously they had the same altitude from Hashirama standing on the Golem's head and Madara in the Susanoo's forehead.
After the explosion, Hashirama is on the ground inside of the head instead of on the same altitude as Madara.
We see Madara swinging downwards, then we see the Golem facing upwards and catching it upwards (top half of the screen).
So from what I'm assuming.
Hashirama caught the bijuudama and rammed it against Madara's sword. When it was about to blow up, Madara combined his Susanoo w/ Kurama, and Hashirama entered the head of the golem and reinforced it. That's why in the last one I sent, you don't see the body, only the head and new hands.

Okay, wow, I’m ******* blind apparently.

Lmao it's cool

However, we still see Kurama’s Bijuudama Break through the Wood Dragon while the explosion didn’t scathe the Wood Golem. Hashirama’s Mokuton can tank Bijuudama explosions, which we later see again with the Buddha Statue tanking a Majestic Attire Bijuudama explosion.

To be honest, at this point with the feats we see, I wouldn't even consider it the same wood.
Golem can catch bijuudama balls while dragon gets destroyed from it. Golem's head can survive explosion while dragon and body of golem can't.
Oh wow, I just found something in the databook.
"Page 299 Mokujin no jutsu (literally wood human)
Ninjutsu, kekkei-genkai, no range, defensive, offensive. Users: Hashirama Senju/Zetsu.
Descending God,that makes everyone get crushed by their karma (repent for their sins)!

God of shinobi Hashirama Senju was very good at ninjutsu. By given chakra to make wood (wood release) grow faster,to take shape into very big/gigantic mokujin. The giant excels in defense and offense, and has strong physical attacks. During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails.
Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness."

So its head, via databook and manga, is sturdier than the rest of his body. So the "same wood" doesn't apply anymore.

From the "chakra can be A, B, and C" reply, I explained that the body was destroyed, but the head wasn't, backed up by databook and how it explains that the head is sturdier than the rest of the body.

 

[Kin201]

I agree, MS, EMS don't increase physical stats, at least for now we don't have solid proof for it and it seems iffy . You got new abilities from them, lmao. EMS removes the strain and pain is one thing but EMS making Madara much more powerful? Sure, more powerful with Perfect Susanoo. More powerful physically himself? I dk about that. Physically there is no proven change, Madara's speed, and all would still be the same. Same goes for Sasuke.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Regardless, Killer B still calls the dragon wood paralysis, which binds biju power.
Paralysis: the loss of the ability to move (and sometimes to feel anything) in part or most of the body, typically as a result of illness, poison, or injury.
So regardless, they are held down.

We see Naruto bite it here. We don't see any more pictures of Naruto except as background for Obito and Kakashi. The page after Naruto is shown again, we see his bijuu mode dissolving.

First Naruto fights against it head on, next time we see it he's cowling. It's not immediate, but we visually see the effects.

And Naruto didn't just make a clone, he did break out. Look at the flash of light via body flicker (at least the fandom says he used body flicker). Naruto only shines that much when he uses it

I know that it binds their power, but it does that through holding them down and absorbing their chakra, and since you conceded that the effects are not immediate regardless, then this debate is really settled.

I mean think about it. Yamato's Mokuton has the same binding properties as Hashirama's, yet we know that it can't bind the full Kyuubi, so why is that? It's simply not strong enough that's why. Hashirama's Mokuton is simply strong enough to bind them long enough for the absorption to take effect and incapacitate a Bijuu.

I'm not sure how Naruto using the body flicker is relevant here, but regardless he only got freed after the Wood Dragon was weakened.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Because the first time in the fight he genuinely used the Mangekyo, he used genjutsu, and everybody was shocked that a regular sharingan could break out of Tsukuyomi.

Except he didn't. Obito stated that Sasuke never once broke out, and it was merely an act by Itachi.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree, MS, EMS don't increase physical stats, at least for now we don't have solid proof for it and it seems iffy . You got new abilities from them, lmao. EMS removes the strain and pain is one thing but EMS making Madara much more powerful? Sure, more powerful with Perfect Susanoo. More powerful physically himself? I dk about that. Physically there is no proven change, Madara's speed, and all would still be the same. Same goes for Sasuke.

LOL

 

[KingTempest]

LOL

#1 You went to look at the regular ass Sharingan instead of the upgrades.
#2 Strength ≠ AP. He refers to the heart and says the person can't be stopped (while knowing about Hashirama). Does that sound like strength to you?

You're one of the people who hear someone say "I have true strength" and think they have omnipotence.

 

[KingTempest]

I know that it binds their power, but it does that through holding them down and absorbing their chakra, and since you conceded that the effects are not immediate regardless, then this debate is really settled.

What.
I said it doesn't immediately drain all of their chakra, which means that they would be dead.

I mean think about it. Yamato's Mokuton has the same binding properties as Hashirama's, yet we know that it can't bind the full Kyuubi, so why is that? It's simply not strong enough that's why. Hashirama's Mokuton is simply strong enough to bind them long enough for the absorption to take effect and incapacitate a Bijuu.

So we're just gonna act like they aren't weaker when they touch the wood... anyways, I've countered in my debate w/ Tracer, so this doesn't even matter

I'm not sure how Naruto using the body flicker is relevant here, but regardless he only got freed after the Wood Dragon was weakened.

I said that's how he broke out of the wood dragon.

Who said it was weakened? It was only weakened when Bee broke out.

 

[LordTracer]

The chains came out of the rods, so...

And it’s specifically the rods with the curse marks. And the chains Madara was using to take the Bijuu didn’t have those.

When he did it against Madara he just extended his arm out and fell. When he did it against the Gyuki, he sliced. What he did on Madara was what he did on Sasuke, except he fell instead of slashing. Quick mini scale.
Sasuke's Face & Skin > Lightning Oppression Horizontal > Gyuki's durability.
But wait.
Gyuki's Durability ≥ Version 2 Durability ≥ Version 2 Lariat > Version 1 Lariat > Sasuke's Face & Skin.
So...
Chop used against Madara ≠ Slice used against Gyuki

Okay, you’re just arguing semantics at this point. Chopping and slicing with your is the same motion, and would have the same effect. To argue that they’re somehow fundamentally different is just semantics. And no, what A did against Madara is not the same thing he did against Sasuke. And Sasuke never tanked A’s attacks without the Susano’o, nor did he use the same attack he did against Gyūki, don’t be dishonest.

I have no idea. I won't claim it will or it won't. I'm just saying that's not a good anti-feat.

Madara wasn’t off-guard, by the way. You explicitly see him react to the Two-Tails before she slaps him. So your point there is invalid.

The same Naruto not even 3 chapters later sensed them and fought it. Naruto could never see limbo, but since Hagoromo, he could sense it and react to it. Naruto could see limbo before that. So nah.

Okay, you’re straight up lying here. Naruto didn’t see the Limbo. That was MADARA continuing his sentence from the panel directly above. You even see the ellipses, showing that it’s a continuation of Madara’s previous sentence.

What puts Naruto's striking strength above a six paths chidori blade?

The fact that Naruto was throwing hands with Sasuke in their final battle despite Sasuke going for the kill and Naruto explicitly not doing that.

Naruto's rasengan (which is his force & striking strength) and Sasuke's chidori (same) couldn't cut through Madara, it just held him. A chidori blade cut him, giving his chidori blade more AP than Naruto's striking strength and a regular chidori.

Something something piercing/slicing damage. Also by that logic, Sasuke is then stronger than himself and Naruto combined, which is obviously incorrect.

Because the first time in the fight he genuinely used the Mangekyo, he used genjutsu, and everybody was shocked that a regular sharingan could break out of Tsukuyomi.

Ah yes, because Itachi totally wouldn’t use that due to the massive toll that Tsukuyomi takes on the user, when we know Itachi was trying to weaken Sasuke and draw Orochimaru out.

Your point was that Tobirama = Izuna ~ MS Madara, then EMS Madara > all of before. I said because he got a perfect Susanoo and a Bijuu. which didn't raise his physical stats, just gave him new abilities.

And you’re incorrect. Base EMS Madara is physically superior to Tobirama while MS Madara was comparable to him. EMS Madara could clash with Hashirama, who we know is physically stronger than Tobirama.

Comparable to KCM with Blaze release. I'm referring to stats boosted by Dojutsu. His stats were never boosted, he just got an entirely new ability. It's like saying "Naruto all over > Kakuzu", no. Naruto got 1 new ability that was over Kakuzu, his other abilities were never boosted. Same w/ Sasuke and his eyes. His stats don't get boosted, he gets new abilities.

The Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan is not a single jutsu like the Rasengan lmao. And no, EMS is not just comparable to KCM without Blaze Release. That’s your headcanon that you haven’t proven. Hell, Sasuke even implied that KCM Naruto was weaker than him, since he told Naruto not to drag him and Sakura down. Sasuke and Itachi’s Susano’o were fighting equivalently against Sage Kabuto, and before you say it, no, there is no reason to assume Sasuke’s Susano’o boosts him less than Itachi’s does.

EMS was on par with his Susanoo from using Susanoo, I don't see one taijutsu feat. I'm talking about physical stats and Sasuke's chidori, not Susanoo or blaze release. You keep saying "they're on par" when you're referring to new abilities that his MS and EMS gave him, while I'm referring to physical stats.

Their Susano’o boost them to similar degrees, since they’re the same ability. If you can’t prove that Itachi’s Susano’o boosts him more than Sasuke’s does to him, then base EMS Sasuke and Itachi would be comparable.

The raikage is the fastest person alive w/ Shunsin. Naruto dodged him with Shunsin. Out of everyone alive at that point, Naruto was the fastest with shunsin.

You mean Naruto dodged a punch that A explicitly said was a test? Also if the Raikage is the fastest, then why did Madara’s Susano’o catch him?

MS Obito had to live by 600 billion paper bombs, then he stabbed Konan. Those are his only feats.

Obito with the rinnegan had 6 bijuu helping him, a new mask that couldn't be broken w/out a crazy rasengan, and an ability that nobody knew about.

What feats are you comparing?

Rinnegan Obito could burn Gyūki’s hand with his Katon, disperse a KCM clone, match KCM Naruto in a headbutt, slap KCM with Madara’s Gunbai (with Naruto directly saying Obito is strong) and tank a Rasengan to the shoulder. Those are vastly superior feats to being badly damaged by Konan, it’s pretty blatant that Rinnegan Obito > Tobi.

Six Paths Chakra.

Evidence that it nullifies the drawbacks?

I see it now, but that would just count as endurance. He lobbed his arm off and didn't blink.

No, it wouldn’t count as endurance. His hand being completely undamaged from the Amaterasu is blatantly just durability.

That's not how it works.
You don't put dura or striking strength off of hitting multiple things at the same time. They need to hit the same exact place. If that was the case, he would've been able to slap them all away when they were all combined.

Yes, you do lol. Naruto wouldn’t get 5x the AP of the Bijuudama in that case, but he would still scale significantly above just one.

So from what I'm assuming.
Hashirama caught the bijuudama and rammed it against Madara's sword. When it was about to blow up, Madara combined his Susanoo w/ Kurama, and Hashirama entered the head of the golem and reinforced it. That's why in the last one I sent, you don't see the body, only the head and new hands.

You do see its body though, when it runs past the Buddha Statue.

wouldn't even consider it the same wood.
Golem can catch bijuudama balls while dragon gets destroyed from it. Golem's head can survive explosion while dragon and body of golem can't.

Body of golem did survive, I provided scans that show this.

Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness."

This does not say that the head is more durable than the rest of the body. It says that the golem becomes a defense. Nowhere does it say that the body is less durable.

So its head, via databook and manga, is sturdier than the rest of his body. So the "same wood" doesn't apply anymore.

This was not said anywhere and the body survived the explosion as you later see it run past the Buddha Statue.

To be honest, at this point with the feats we see, I wouldn't even consider it the same wood.
Golem can catch bijuudama balls while dragon gets destroyed from it. Golem's head can survive explosion while dragon and body of golem can't.

You know we later see the dragon too, right? As the golem runs past the Buddha Statue and gets ready to seal Kurama, we see the dragon over its shoulder.

 

[KingTempest]

Except he didn't. Obito stated that Sasuke never once broke out, and it was merely an act by Itachi.

So if we just throw away all feats cause Itachi was acting, we can throw away the "you need my eyes" bs then.

 

[LordTracer]

Also it should be noted that Kakashi, after reawakening his Mangekyō in Part II, is stronger than he was in Part I.

 

[KingTempest]

And it’s specifically the rods with the curse marks. And the chains Madara was using to take the Bijuu didn’t have those.

So we see Obito using only chains on one of the bijuu and it brings them down with the quickness.

Okay, you’re just arguing semantics at this point. Chopping and slicing with your is the same motion, and would have the same effect. To argue that they’re somehow fundamentally different is just semantics. And no, what A did against Madara is not the same thing he did against Sasuke. And Sasuke never tanked A’s attacks without the Susano’o, nor did he use the same attack he did against Gyūki, don’t be dishonest.

You said the attack he used against the Gyuki was what he used against Madara.
The name of the attack he used against Madara was called the Lightning Oppression Horizontal Chop.
What he used on Sasuke was the Lightning Oppression Horizontal.
And did A not break through the Susanoo but not his skin?

Madara wasn’t off-guard, by the way. You explicitly see him react to the Two-Tails before she slaps him. So your point there is invalid.

Off-Guard: Unprepared for a surprise or difficulty.
HE COULDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF. They SEALED HIS MOVEMENT.

Okay, you’re straight up lying here. Naruto didn’t see the Limbo.

He evaded... my limbo?

That was MADARA continuing his sentence from the panel directly above. You even see the ellipses, showing that it’s a continuation of Madara’s previous sentence.

He evaded... my limbo?

The fact that Naruto was throwing hands with Sasuke in their final battle despite Sasuke going for the kill and Naruto explicitly not doing that.

He sent Naruto to the middle of the valley with one slash.

There is an art in fighting.
Sasuke fought with his palms in the anime (where they extended the fighting since he went straight into the fireball for some reason in the anime). Sasuke did not ball his fist up once.
He wasn't punching to hurt, he was controlling the flow of the fight.

Something something piercing/slicing damage.

Regular chidori ain't do it, something something piercing/slicing damage.

Also by that logic, Sasuke is then stronger than himself and Naruto combined, which is obviously incorrect.

Stop considering damage in multiple different places as one. If you get punched in your arm and leg at the same time and don't feel it, it doesn't mean you're twice as strong. it means the place that was harmed > the AP of one fist. Same with this.

Ah yes, because Itachi totally wouldn’t use that due to the massive toll that Tsukuyomi takes on the user,

Umm...? Did he not use every mangekyo jutsu at his disposal?

And you’re incorrect. Base EMS Madara is physically superior to Tobirama while MS Madara was comparable to him. EMS Madara could clash with Hashirama, who we know is physically stronger than Tobirama.

Madara has not one physical feat to both Hashirama or Tobirama except the weapons clash w/ Hashi that one time.
Where does it say MS Madara was comparable in physical strength? They said equal once and everybody thought they were equal in everything.
Where does it say Hashirama is physically stronger than Tobirama.
Madara flat out said Tobirama was the fastest shinobi
That "who we know" logic is headassery.

The Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan is not a single jutsu like the Rasengan lmao. And no, EMS is not just comparable to KCM without Blaze Release. That’s your headcanon that you haven’t proven.

Give me a feat of EMS Sasuke being comparable w/out a Mangekyo exclusive jutsu.

Hell, Sasuke even implied that KCM Naruto was weaker than him, since he told Naruto not to drag him and Sakura down.

So Naruto weaker than Sakura now. Alright. I've never seen some headass logic like this in my life.

Sasuke and Itachi’s Susano’o were fighting equivalently against Sage Kabuto, and before you say it, no, there is no reason to assume Sasuke’s Susano’o boosts him less than Itachi’s does.

Itachi saved his ass every 5 minutes. What do you mean equivalently???
You're saying it as if Susanoo is a Super Saiyan Multiplier.

Their Susano’o boost them to similar degrees, since they’re the same ability.

EMS Susanoo for Sasuke w/ a MS Susanoo for Itachi, and Itachi was saving his ass.

If you can’t prove that Itachi’s Susano’o boosts him more than Sasuke’s does to him, then base EMS Sasuke and Itachi would be comparable.

Prove it's a boost to base strength instead of a strong ass addon.

You mean Naruto dodged a punch that A explicitly said was a test? Also if the Raikage is the fastest, then why did Madara’s Susano’o catch him?

He said that Naruto's the second person who dodged his fastest punch on the same page.
Madara was dead. I said alive.

Rinnegan Obito could burn Gyūki’s hand with his Katon, disperse a KCM clone, match KCM Naruto in a headbutt, slap KCM with Madara’s Gunbai (with Naruto directly saying Obito is strong) and tank a Rasengan to the shoulder.

Can you prove that he couldn't not do that prior?
The headbutt was because of the mask.
You don't understand durability vs endurance. His shoulder had the nastiest gash I've ever seen.
Madara got cut in half and didn't blink. Is that durability?

Those are vastly superior feats to being badly damaged by Konan,

Which, before this thread, was a candidate for Large Mountain, higher than everything we see until the bijuu.

it’s pretty blatant that Rinnegan Obito > Tobi.

Obviously, cause he got new abilities. Regular stats? No.

Evidence that it nullifies the drawbacks?

Six Paths Chakra = Asura & Indra's Chakra. Asura's chakra ≥ Hashirama's, which, when put into Danzo, allowed him to use a genjutsu that took a decade to use, daily.

No, it wouldn’t count as endurance. His hand being completely undamaged from the Amaterasu is blatantly just durability.

You can't even see the arm. How are you gonna speak for something you can't see. If it was undamaged, he would've asked Gaara to remove the fire.

Yes, you do lol.

You really don't.

Naruto wouldn’t get 5x the AP of the Bijuudama in that case, but he would still scale significantly above just one.

Because he doesn't.

You do see its body though, when it runs past the Buddha Statue.

A new one was created. I ask "where after the explosion" and you talk about 6 chapters later. Goddamn.

Body of golem did survive, I provided scans that show this.

You sent the head and assumed the body was there because they're made out of the same stuff.

This does not say that the head is more durable than the rest of the body. It says that the golem becomes a defense. Nowhere does it say that the body is less durable.

Show me a picture of the body right after the explosion. I don't want "head's there, same material", I don't want right after the buddha is created, post explosion. When we see the bijuudama w/ a sword, we see Hashirama on the GROUND instead of the head.

This was not said anywhere and the body survived the explosion as you later see it run past the Buddha Statue.

His head has unrivaled sturdiness, which includes his body.

You know we later see the dragon too, right? As the golem runs past the Buddha Statue and gets ready to seal Kurama, we see the dragon over its shoulder.

You know he could've made a NEW ONE right? I mean... I do see it being remade when he's making the BIG BUDDHA STATUE. He makes an entirely new one. You can see it on top of its head.

 

[KingTempest]

Also it should be noted that Kakashi, after reawakening his Mangekyō in Part II, is stronger than he was in Part I.

He had 2 years to get stronger. Are you serious? You're telling me we had an entire timeskip and your argument is "he got a stronger eye", The same eye put him in the hospital.

 

[Metalija]

Yeah Kakashi got stronger by training his ass off. He had a lot of free time considering that all of his students ran off lol.

 

[LordTracer]

So we see Obito using only chains on one of the bijuu and it brings them down with the quickness.

Okay? Is that supposed to be an anti-feat, or...?

You said the attack he used against the Gyuki was what he used against Madara.
The name of the attack he used against Madara was called the Lightning Oppression Horizontal Chop.
What he used on Sasuke was the Lightning Oppression Horizontal.
And did A not break through the Susanoo but not his skin?

I said that A chopped Gyūki’s horn off and then he chopped Madara’s Susano’o and did nothing to it. And no, A didn’t break Sasuke’s Susano’o, what are you talking about?

Off-Guard: Unprepared for a surprise or difficulty.
HE COULDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF. They SEALED HIS MOVEMENT.

By the definition you just gave, Madara wasn’t off-guard since he looked straight at the Two-Tails.

He evaded... my limbo?

Care to explain why Naruto couldn’t see it later then?

He sent Naruto to the middle of the valley with one slash.

There is an art in fighting.
Sasuke fought with his palms in the anime (where they extended the fighting since he went straight into the fireball for some reason in the anime). Sasuke did not ball his fist up once.
He wasn't punching to hurt, he was controlling the flow of the fight.

Since when does sending someone flying mean you’re stronger than them? And I hope you don’t seriously think Sasuke wasn’t trying to hurt Naruto. If you do, then there’s honestly no point in continuing this conversation because you’re just in your own little world.

Stop considering damage in multiple different places as one. If you get punched in your arm and leg at the same time and don't feel it, it doesn't mean you're twice as strong. it means the place that was harmed > the AP of one fist. Same with this.

By your logic, Sasuke did more damage than he and Naruto previously did simultaneously. That would mean Sasuke can output more damage than himself + Naruto at the same time. That’s illogical.

Umm...? Did he not use every mangekyo jutsu at his disposal?

Technically he only used two to actually fight Sasuke. He used Susano’o just to save himself from dying to Kirin.

Madara has not one physical feat to both Hashirama or Tobirama except the weapons clash w/ Hashi that one time.
Where does it say MS Madara was comparable in physical strength? They said equal once and everybody thought they were equal in everything.
Where does it say Hashirama is physically stronger than Hashirama.
Madara flat out said Tobirama was the fastest shinobi
That "who we know" logic is headassery

You just listed Madara’s physical feat, good job. MS Madara and MS Izuna are stated to have constantly sparred and honed their skills against each other, which shows that they’re physically comparable. I’m gonna let you correct where you asked how Hashirama is stronger than Hashirama, and did you just use SPEED as a counter to AP?! I don’t think you understand how this stuff works, I’ll be honest.

So Naruto weaker than Sakura now. Alright. I've never seen some headass logic like this in my life.

Hm, 100H Sakura, who Naruto himself said would pulverize him? And who is stated to have caught up to Naruto and Sasuke’s level? And who is stated to possibly have greater strength than Tsunade, who has feats superior to KCM Naruto? Also quite hypocritical that this is your “counter,” yet you previously said that saying “who we know is stronger” is, how you keep saying, “headassery?” Also I hope you realize that we accept BoS Sakura as slightly stronger than BoS Naruto, so...

Itachi saved his ass every 5 minutes. What do you mean equivalently???
You're saying it as if Susanoo is a Super Saiyan Multiplier.

Oh, you mean like when Itachi got sliced in half? Or impaled? Or the various other times Kabuto harmed him during the Izanami loop? Why is it always Dragon Ball that gets brought up when people bring up other verses for literally no reason. Sasuke and Itachi are using the same technique, if their Susano’o are equal, logically their bases would also be equal. Unless you can find something from the manga that says differently.

Prove it's a boost to base strength instead of a strong ass addon.

Deathbed Itachi’s Susano’o was lopping off the heads of Hydra Orochimaru, who is stated in the databook to be Orochimaru’s strongest state, putting him above his Konoha Crush self that was above CS2 Sasuke. Meanwhile base Deathbed Itachi was overwhelmed in a Katon clash with CS1.5 Sasuke. There you go.

He said that Naruto's the second person who dodged his fastest punch on the same page.
Madara was dead. I said alive.

Technically undead, but fair.

Can you prove that he couldn't not do that prior?

He got his arm obliterated by Konan. The same person that was wrapped up and overpowered by base Jiraiya. So no, Tobi couldn’t have harmed Gyūki or fought KCM. And no, you don’t understand it. Obito’s arm is barely damaged. On this site, that would qualify as tanking.

Which, before this thread, was a candidate for Large Mountain, higher than everything we see until the bijuu.

What are you talking about? Are you talking about the High 7-A on her profile? You know, the stat that is explicitly stated to require MONTHS OF PREP? How many times do you have to be told that what’s currently on the profiles, is incorrect and going to be changed 99% of the time? Also High 7-A isn’t enough to harm a 6-C like Obito did, so it still shows Obito getting stronger.

Obviously, cause he got new abilities. Regular stats? No.

Feats say otherwise.

Six Paths Chakra = Asura & Indra's Chakra. Asura's chakra ≥ Hashirama's, which, when put into Danzo, allowed him to use a genjutsu that took a decade to use, daily.

Can you provide a scan of this? I don’t remember Danzō using Kotoamatsukami more than once a day.

You really don't.

That is literally how things are done on the sight, dude. If Character A can simultaneously block attacks from Characters B, C, and D, then Character A would scale above those attacks.

Because he doesn't.

He clearly does scale significantly above one Bijuudama when he simultaneously slapped five of them into mountains.

A new one was created. I ask "where after the explosion" and you talk about 6 chapters later. Goddamn.

Your point being?

You sent the head and assumed the body was there because they're made out of the

I did nothing of the sort.

Show me a picture of the body right after the explosion. I don't want "head's there, same material", I don't want right after the buddha is created, post explosion. When we see the bijuudama w/ a sword, we see Hashirama on the GROUND instead of the head.

After Buddha is created is post-explosion, smh. And literally nobody said the body was still there because it’s made out of the same material as the head, stop lying so much. And Hashirama is literally in the head, what are you talking about?

His head has unrivaled sturdiness, which includes his body.

That’s not the context of the statement at all.

You know he could've made a NEW ONE right? I mean... I do see it being remade when he's making the BIG BUDDHA STATUE. He makes an entirely new one. You can see it on top of its head.

That does not mean he remade it, that would be your headcanon. Hashirama was on the head of the golem, he created the statue (and only said he was making the statue), the golem is on the head of the statue, and Hashirama is on the golem’s head. Unless he randomly swapped golems (which we don’t even see), it’s the same damn golem.

 

[BlackeJan]

Dont know if I asked but why are we getting rid of High 6A?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Dont know if I asked but why are we getting rid of High 6A?

IIRC The 10 Pentaton Calc was deemed invalid but there's still the 5 Pentaton Calc and that the Deity Gates do not scale to the Jubi and vice versa SM Mokuton Jutsu does not scale to the Jubi via Deity Gates

 

[KingTempest]

Okay? Is that supposed to be an anti-feat, or...?

The bijuu was weakened by the chains. The chains, weaken, them.

I said that A chopped Gyūki’s horn off and then he chopped Madara’s Susano’o and did nothing to it. And no, A didn’t break Sasuke’s Susano’o, what are you talking about?

That's crazy

By the definition you just gave, Madara wasn’t off-guard since he looked straight at the Two-Tails.

Wasn't allowed to defend. He couldn't block.
Off GUARD. He couldn't GUARD himself.

Care to explain why Naruto couldn’t see it later then?

He could sense it perfectly fine, his clones fought it hand to hand. He flat out told Sasuke he could sense it. If I said see earlier (iirc i did by accident and forgot to edit it to sense), I meant sense.

Since when does sending someone flying mean you’re stronger than them? And I hope you don’t seriously think Sasuke wasn’t trying to hurt Naruto. If you do, then there’s honestly no point in continuing this conversation because you’re just in your own little world.

I'm talking about the taijutsu clash for striking strength, not the overall fight. And Sasuke could've killed him off rip. Sasuke wanted to kill him but he didn't throw his whole arsenal at him.
Rip His Soul out. Amaterasu. Teleport and stab while he was in base. Chibaku Tensei. Too many ways

By your logic, Sasuke did more damage than he and Naruto previously did simultaneously. That would mean Sasuke can output more damage than himself + Naruto at the same time. That’s illogical.

If 2 people punch a rock in 1 place, and 2 people punch an identical rock in 2 different places, which one will have more visible damage. That logic is stupid.

You just listed Madara’s physical feat, good job.

Two featless goofs except Hashirama who's physically stronger than Tobirama who's another featless goof.

MS Madara and MS Izuna are stated to have constantly sparred and honed their skills against each other, which shows that they’re physically comparable. I’m gonna let you correct where you asked how Hashirama is stronger than Hashirama, and did you just use SPEED as a counter to AP?! I don’t think you understand how this stuff works, I’ll be honest.

Featless goof spars with another featless goof.
Nah, I didn't use it as a counter. I was just bored

Hm, 100H Sakura, who Naruto himself said would pulverize him?

In base as comic relief.
I want you to take this to a formal debate and see if they'll laugh or not. In all seriousness.

And who is stated to have caught up to Naruto and Sasuke’s level?

In her own delusional mind. They both had to save her right after.

And who is stated to possibly have greater strength than Tsunade

By Hashirama who saw Tsunade when she was like 5.

Oh, you mean like when Itachi got sliced in half? Or impaled? Or the various other times Kabuto harmed him during the Izanami loop?

What did Sasuke do when Itachi got sliced in half? Look in fear like a slouch.
Why did itachi get impaled? To set up the Izanami.
He says so right here.
Imma ignore that you used an illusion as an anti-feat.

Sasuke and Itachi are using the same technique, if their Susano’o are equal, logically their bases would also be equal. Unless you can find something from the manga that says differently.

Itachi slaps away Sasuke's Susanoo hand through a tree. That's AP.
Never agreed they were equal. Against Kabuto, Sasuke fought to kill while Itachi fought to capture. I don't even like Itachi, but you just disrespected the hell out of him trying to make him = to Sasuke.
Itachi saved his ass from Kabuto rushing him.
Itachi intercepts Kabuto from rushing them again.
Itachi saves him from getting impaled.

Deathbed Itachi’s Susano’o was lopping off the heads of Hydra Orochimaru, who is stated in the databook to be Orochimaru’s strongest state, putting him above his Konoha Crush self that was above CS2 Sasuke. Meanwhile base Deathbed Itachi was overwhelmed in a Katon clash with CS1.5 Sasuke. There you go.

Didn't you say that Itachi was holding back on Sasuke and that his sole purpose was to bring out Orochimaru?

He got his arm obliterated by Konan. The same person that was wrapped up and overpowered by base Jiraiya. So no, Tobi couldn’t have harmed Gyūki or fought KCM. And no, you don’t understand it. Obito’s arm is barely damaged. On this site, that would qualify as tanking.

What are you talking about? Are you talking about the High 7-A on her profile? You know, the stat that is explicitly stated to require MONTHS OF PREP? How many times do you have to be told that what’s currently on the profiles, is incorrect and going to be changed 99% of the time? Also High 7-A isn’t enough to harm a 6-C like Obito did, so it still shows Obito getting stronger.

Your argument was that Rinnegan Obito has better feats than non Rinnegan Obito. I brought up Konan (who did have months of prep) since that was what I could think of, and that High-7-A would've been upgraded as well. She hurt Obito who fought Minato who's A's rival, who you're trying to put at 6-C. So yeah. But since I can think of other stuff, lemme see.
Rinnegan Obito matched headbutts w/ KCM Naruto, who killer B confirmed, would've been killed by A's top speed punch, who Minato rivals, who No-Rinne Obito fought. I don't see progression in strength.
Rinnegan Obito burned Gyuki with Uchiha Flame Formation. What says he couldn't use that jutsu pre rinnegan? It's not a rinnegan only technique, it's just a fire based barrier ninjutsu. Madara taught him the Uchiha forbidden jutsu (Izanagi), what says he didn't learn these Uchiha based moves prior?

Feats say otherwise.

Read above.
Please name them.

Can you provide a scan of this? I don’t remember Danzō using Kotoamatsukami more than once a day.

I said he could use it daily, every day. he says he can't use it many times in a day, so potential more than once.

That is literally how things are done on the sight, dude. If Character A can simultaneously block attacks from Characters B, C, and D, then Character A would scale above those attacks.

He would scale above each attack, not all of them combined.
Naruto can block 5 bijuudama in different places, nothing says he can do it to all of them combined.

He clearly does scale significantly above one Bijuudama when he simultaneously slapped five of them into mountains.

I meant that his striking doesn't scale to 5.

Your point being?

Me referring to chapter 620-621: Where's the golem?
You: After the golem runs by to release Kurama (which is in chapter 626).
Me: Where is it right after?
You: I already sent them.

I did nothing of the sort.

"Why would something created from the same Mokuton be less durable in certain places? Is this said anywhere in the manga? Also we see the body of the Wood Golem still present later, Hashirama was still standing on it. So it wasn’t destroyed by the explosion."

After Buddha is created is post-explosion, smh. And literally nobody said the body was still there because it’s made out of the same material as the head, stop lying so much. And Hashirama is literally in the head, what are you talking about?

I ask "where's the body"
You say "we see the head"

That’s not the context of the statement at all.

Please explain.

That does not mean he remade it, that would be your headcanon. Hashirama was on the head of the golem, he created the statue (and only said he was making the statue), the golem is on the head of the statue, and Hashirama is on the golem’s head. Unless he randomly swapped golems (which we don’t even see), it’s the same damn golem.

Since I have to pull out all these imgur links to show timeline, please, look at each picture closely.
We're gonna play a game called identify the golem's body.

1. Hashirama has dragon on Kurama.
2. Kurama fires non exploded bijuudama which goes through the wood dragon
3. Bijuudama gets caught by the wood golem.
4. Hashirama is in the same altitude as Madara when the Bijuudama explodes.
5. Bijuudama explodes
6. Hashirama is in the head of the golem, on ground level where he has to look up to the Susanoo.
7. Hashirama exits the head, and we see no golem there when he uses Hotei technique.
8. Hashirama runs away (on foot) hopping on rocks to escape Madara. He escapes and goes to the seashore, where we see a cloud of dust on his way there w/ the Susanoo Bijuu following him.
9. We see Hashirama on the ground.
10. Madara n Kurama throw the Evil Disturbance Waltz and the 5 layer Rashomon changes its trajectory, all of that crap.
11. Hashirama looks at the Susanoo/Kurama while still on the ground.
12. Hashirama makes the shinsu senju with a brand new golem and dragon on the top.

So, if you were playing correctly, you should've stopped at round 4, and came back at round 12. If you noticed the body anywhere else, please inform me.

 

[LordTracer]

Before I continue this, remind me why we’re debating about if dōjutsu enhances the user or not?

 

[KingTempest]

I countered A cutting Gyuki as an outlier

Didn't his armor get hit by a regular chidori from Sasuke... the same chidori that matched Naruto's rasengan, which, while in the future, and bigger, couldn't break a Susanoo ribcage... while the 8 tails contributed at least 1/9th of damage to a 10x boosted (from Sage) Madara's stronger Susanoo?

Naruto's Base Rasengan > Sasuke's Chidori > A's Dura > A's Cutting Power > Gyuki's Dura ≥ Gyuki's Striking Strength > 1/9th of Sage Susanoo Dura ≥ Regular Susanoo Dura ≥ Enhanced Ay Punch > Regular A Punch...
But Madara's Ribcage > Ultra Big Ball Rasengan > Regular ass Rasengan right.

Then you said regular chidori ≠ Sharingan Chidori

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

He got his arm obliterated by Konan. The same person that was wrapped up and overpowered by base Jiraiya.

Regardless of whatever the outcome of this discussion is: What’s up with this comparison? Jiraiya soaked her in oil so she couldn’t make use of her technique, which has little to do with Konan being capable of using explosives powerful enough to blew off Obito’s arm.

 

[LordTracer]

Oh yeah. Sasuke would’ve been fatigued at that point regardless, since he’d just fought the Kage, he’d just fought Danzō and had no healing afterwards cause he stabbed Karin. And he was extremely scuffed at that point.

 

[KingTempest]

Karin healed him after he fought the Kage and Danzo. On Danzo's last life, right before he revived himself, he was healed. Then he stabbed Karin on Danzo's last life.

Sasuke was about to clash chidori's with Kakashi. When he does it with Naruto, Sasuke says "I'm not holding back".

If anything, Naruto was weaker, since he was poisoned prior to the clash.

We see with Madara that even after he had no eyes post revival, he was still fine and ready to fight. So yeah, Sasuke was still good enough.

 

[LordTracer]

The bijuu was weakened by the chains. The chains, weaken, them.

Nothing in that scan says that it was weakened. The chains don’t even have aura, which you previously tried to use to say they had the same qualities as the rods.

That's crazy

He is not breaking the Susano’o there. It’s still very clearly visible while Sasuke is on the ground. I can circle it if you can’t see it. Also literally turn the page to the next chapter and it’s still there.

Wasn't allowed to defend. He couldn't block.
Off GUARD. He couldn't GUARD himself.

I’m aware Madara couldn’t defend himself. I’m pointing out that the definition you gave for “off guard,” is not what happened.

He could sense it perfectly fine, his clones fought it hand to hand. He flat out told Sasuke he could sense it. If I said see earlier (iirc i did by accident and forgot to edit it to sense), I meant sense.

This has been going on so long I don’t even remember why we were discussing Limbo. Whatever.

I'm talking about the taijutsu clash for striking strength, not the overall fight. And Sasuke could've killed him off rip. Sasuke wanted to kill him but he didn't throw his whole arsenal at him.
Rip His Soul out. Amaterasu. Teleport and stab while he was in base. Chibaku Tensei. Too many ways

Why are you so obsessed with striking strength? I hope you realize that I’ve been talking about attack potency this whole time. Sasuke not being a smart fighter doesn’t change that he wanted to kill Naruto. That was his entire plan, so saying that he wasn’t trying to hurt Naruto is, no offense, dumb.

and that High-7-A would've been upgraded as well

It wouldn’t unless there’s a better calc for it. And considering that her calc for that isn’t on the Naruto verse page, I believe it would’ve been discarded. So she’d just get a ‘higher’ with the paper sea.

She hurt Obito who fought Minato who's A's rival, who you're trying to put at 6-C. So yeah.

Here’s the issue with this. Obito didn’t ever harm Minato. Or match any of his attacks. He only survived a Rasengan to the back and caught Minato’s wrist mid-swing when the fight started. So if anything, Obito would only have durability on Minato’s level, not AP.

What says he couldn't use that jutsu pre rinnegan? It's not a rinnegan only technique, it's just a fire based barrier ninjutsu.

I’m not saying he didn’t have that jutsu before. I’m saying that before, it wouldn’t have had the AP to harm Gyūki.

I said he could use it daily, every day. he says he can't use it many times in a day, so potential more than once.

Ao then says Danzō can’t be trusted so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He would scale above each attack, not all of them combined.
Naruto can block 5 bijuudama in different places, nothing says he can do it to all of them combined.

I never said he could block them all combined though. If he blocked all of them combined, I’d have been arguing for High 6-C, not 6-C. I’ve been arguing that Naruto slapped five away simultaneously, which would make him scale significantly above at least one. I never said all five combined.

I meant that his striking doesn't scale to 5.

And I never claimed it did.

"Why would something created from the same Mokuton be less durable in certain places? Is this said anywhere in the manga? Also we see the body of the Wood Golem still present later, Hashirama was still standing on it. So it wasn’t destroyed by the explosion."

This is not claiming it was still there just because it’s made out of Mokuton, like you claimed I said.

I ask "where's the body"
You say "we see the head"

I literally showed the body run past the Buddha statue but aight.

Please explain.

The head is a defense for Hashirama’s tiny fleshy body. Because that’s where he was hiding in to survive the explosion of the Bijuudama.

Hashirama exits the head, and we see no golem there when he uses Hotei technique.

I’ll concede this point, buuuut if the golem was destroyed, then what’s this huge mass in front of the Majestic Attire? Cause it’s not one of the hands coming out of the ground.

 

[LordTracer]

Karin healed him after he fought the Kage and Danzo. On Danzo's last life, right before he revived himself, he was healed. Then he stabbed Karin on Danzo's last life.

Huh, I guess I just missed that.

Sasuke was about to clash chidori's with Kakashi. When he does it with Naruto, Sasuke says "I'm not holding back".

Okay, this doesn’t mean Sasuke is at full power though. Just saying that he’s not holding back doesn’t mean he’s at full strength.

If anything, Naruto was weaker, since he was poisoned prior to the clash.

Y’know, that could just make Naruto clashing with Sasuke the outlier. Because like you posted earlier, B thought that KCM Naruto would’ve died to A’s punch, yet Sasuke could pierce A with his Chidori. So a weakened base Naruto clashing with the Chidori seems more like the outlier here.

 

[LordTracer]

Also (I can’t believe I didn’t remember this earlier, but whatever) non-exploded Bijuudama should still be 6-C because the Bijuu can physically damage Gyūki, who survived the explosion of his own Bijuudama.