Naruto God Tiers Downgrade (Continued)

[Omimi]

What Kaguya sees is a lot of Chakra in their dominant hands.

quit that hadcanon

 

[Sins32]

The brigthened part is just to put emphasis on what kaguya is looking at as adam said

here example

Its difference lmao, Kaguya can physically see chakra and the chakra network, this was not the case in here.

>Your words hold little to no value at this point. Show me one instance from manga where byakugan "detected" chakra outside of human body and it was not physically visible.

Does that make any difference? byakugan can see chakra and we know chakra can stay invisible even if it outside body lmao. See BMWFanboy scan lmao.

but looks like this , on more than one occasio , even as far back as Part 1 , or for that matter , even Boruto , so if the Seals were carrying heavy amounts of Chakra, they would looklike this to a Byakugan eye, hell to even a normal eye, a heavy concentration of chakra will be visible to the human eye

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

You will have to keep repeating it because you legitimately don't have a point here:

So you're going to literally ignore what the Byakugan does and provide a theory instead?

The Byakugan can see through objects, far distances, visualize Chakra and the Chakra Pathways.

She can't even see neither Sasuke nor Naruto's palms to see the seal.

Her vision is what we see on the scan, it's why Kishimoto drew it.

What Kaguya sees is a lot of Chakra in their dominant hands, the Byakugan only sees Chakra, far distances or through objects. We're seeing what she sees and she doesn't see the marks of the sealing, only Chakra.

What..... theory? Byakugan seeing chakra pathway is not a theory..... its one of the ability of byakugan. You are avoiding the fact chakra all over the anodes in constant because that would shatter this entire arguement. You are refusing to agree that if it was indeed chakra which was brimming outside of their body, it would be visible like everytime shown in the series, because again that would shatter your arguement.

She does not need to see the markings specifically to come to the conclusion they have seal, jesus christ. Byakugan can differentiate between different chakras. Kaguya already knows chakra signature of the seal, she can realize they have seal with one look, which is what she did

My point isn't that Hagoromo had a lot of Chakra left, you're disfiguring my argument, don't do that.

My point was obviously that Hagoromo still had leftover Chakra from what he bequeathed to Naruto and Sasuke, thus no one can make the claim that Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke 50% of his Chakra for them to do with freely.

Plus the fact that it hasn't been proven that he even gave them Chakra to do with freely since we know a lot of it was located in their seals as seen through Kaguya.

Which I already entertained in my previous posting. Even adresing your nitpicking, they would still get planet level rating, Keep up with the arguement bud

Reminder of the Discussion Rules:

The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or questionable hyperbole.

The Rinnegan entry isn't consistent with the manga's information on how to awaken the Rinnegan.

It's never said that it takes years to awaken a Rinnegan, it's only stated that you need Indra and Ashura Chakra.

Provide evidence that it takes years.


Reminder: Nothing contradicts the databook entry, it just states an information which nothing negate. Rinnegan having a natural way to awaken does not negate info of hagoromo giving it one to sasuke. Read your own counter once before posting because this made no sense.

And provide evidence? It is showed on panel madara awakened rinnegan after he was old (Yes, that is your own link ironically), and madara outright states this info too . I could also be petty enough to screenshot the comment where you youself indirectly admitted hags fastened the process and activated Sasuke's rinnegan, but I think everyone following this already knows you are being dishonest.... So I will save myself from that work.

I don't think you realize you're being a hypocrite here. I provided main canon evidence that Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan naturally. Your supposed counter to my evidence was using the databook to disprove it.

Yet here you are countering my databook evidence using the main canon movie.

You can't cherry pick when you can or can't use the databook.

At least stay consistent with your argument. Either use the databook or not.

Also, an easy counter point to disprove your evidence of Toneri:

Why didn't Sasuke awaken Truth Seeking Balls if Toneri did?

I am being hypocrite when you are the one dismissing databook entry for one of your arguement and using DB entry to support your other arguement? Someone post that spiderman meme of him pointing his finger another spiderman please.

Firstly, databook entry does not state you specifically need all bijuu chakra to activate SO6P senjutsu. Go on, read it again

The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!

Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin―Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Tota"!

Done? lets continue.

So now that we have concluded SO6P senjutsu does not specifically need 9 bijuu chakras, lets address your second querry

Why didn't Sasuke awaken Truth Seeking Balls if Toneri did? Because Sasuke never took bijuu's chakra inside him.He manipulated it and directed it towards his susanoo . He has done similar thing in past when he manipulated nature energy inside jugo's curse mark to enhance his susanoo so he can fight against Juubito. And I thought you were the "most knowledgable naruto member" on VsB.......

Hagoromo never gave Ashura power, this is a misconception:

Hagoromo stated that Ashura and Indra ended up fighting due to what Hagoromo bequeathed to Ashura.

What led to them fighting was Hagoromo bequeathing unto Ashura the successor of their clan. That is why they ended up fighting, because Hagoromo entrusted Ashura the power over their clan and not Indra.

Literally before making this comment is when Hagoromo revealed that Ashura and Indra blossomed their own powers, nothing to do with Hagoromo, and it's because of how Ashura blossomed his own powers that Hagoromo named Ashura the successor.

Once again, Hagoromo never gave Ashura actual power.

Direct statement from Hagoromo himself , your headcanon is dismissed

You have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary, you don't have a basis until you give something for your stance.

I dont need to, BMW alread did so answer that. Keep up the pace otherwise this will never finish.

 

[BMWFanboy]

Might I remind everyone that Chakra (concentrated) doesn't remotely resemble this , but looks like this , on more than one occasio , even as far back as Part 1 , or for that matter , even Boruto , so if the Seals were carrying heavy amounts of Chakra, they would looklike this to a Byakugan eye, hell to even a normal eye, a heavy concentration of chakra will be visible to the human eye , which makes no sense considering the fact that the chakra in question is one of the strongest Chakra in the verse. But they don't, Kaguya explicitly calls them Jutsu. Chakra resembles a flame, a light emanating from the seals doesn't make it chakra

Its not always like that, or else Rasengan, Rasengan Shuriken, Bijuu Dama , literally every technique made of concentration of chakra will have flames pattern
@Adam of darkness

Lmao see scan above, you can see concentration of chakra outside of their body, yet no visible chakra lmao, Chakra will only be visible like that if their users will try to physically extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.

Except it is? When chakra flows and gathers/concentrates into one location, a flame like appearance is consistent throughtout the manga, don't ignore it to serve your Ad Hoc. If you actually read Naruto, you'd realise the error in the comparison you've made. These techniques are literally Chakra concentrated into one shape to use as a Jutsu. Raw chakra being concentrated into one place always maintains flame like structure

 

[Sins32]

>These techniques are literally Chakra concentrated into one shape

Sun and Moon mark are sealing techniques lmao

 

[Rocker1189]

Exactly and they dont show the normal chakra pattern and are instead highlighted for you to notcie, you are literally helping our argument, while thinking you are opposing it...

 

[Sins32]

Because those are not Naruto and Sasuke power lmao, nor it help them to amp their justu, merely there to sealing kaguya.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah it is not their power it is Hagormos, but it does not have massive chakra in it, that was given to Naruto and Sasuke.

It was indeed for sealing Kaguya without it they can not form that CT, but they still provide the chakra for it.

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

In case you did not read my previous posting addressing you Sins32

Its not always like that, or else Rasengan, Rasengan Shuriken, Bijuu Dama , literally every technique made of concentration of chakra will have flames patterYour words hold little to no value at this point. Show me one instance from manga where byakugan "detected" chakra outside of human body and it was not physically visible.
Lmao see scan above, you can see concentration of chakra outside of their body, yet no visible chakra lmao, Chakra will only be visible like that if their users will try to physically extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.

(1) Using lmao twice does not make your arguement sound better.

(2) Which scan are you talking about? The anime scan which is auto dismissed because anime is not source material?

Stop wasting time buddy

 

[BMWFanboy]

>These techniques are literally Chakra concentrated into one shape
Sun and Moon mark are sealing techniques lmao

Good good, nice of you to slip up like that.

You know what the common denominator is in all the techniques you mentioned?

They're visible to the naked eye, unlike, guess what, this headcanon chakra you claim only the Seal carried

 

[BMWFanboy]

Because those are not Naruto and Sasuke power lmao, nor it help them to amp their justu, merely there to sealing kaguya.

>only there to seal Kaguya


Yeah Hagoromo is a dumbass who'd say "Aw yeah here's the seal to beat my mum who me and my brother took days to seal but guess what you guys are gonna have to run on Rinnegan Madara and less than Jubito level power because I'm not amping you in any way"

That's exactly the asinine proposal "Naruto and Sasuke awoke power themselves!" is, even if you ignore the fact Madara took decades to replicate simply the Rinnegan when he didn't possess Six Paths Chakra (like Sasuke, which makes it even more asinine for Sasuke to awaken it without Hagoromo), anyone with a average knowledge on the verse can tell half of Kurama and fragments of other Biju Chakra (which btw is PURE NINJUTSU) cannot awaken Six Paths Senjutsu, simply because that goes against the plot, if it was so simple Obito or Madara could've sealed the 9 Biju inside them without bothering with the Gedo Mazo and called it a day. And, if they did, would not last even a second against Madara whom possessed the power of 10 Tails, the Shinju, and both eyes, let alone Kaguya herself

 

[BMWFanboy]

Funny how the anime is supposdely being used to argue for a downgrade but it's 2019 and peeps will refuse to use the anime for Ranton Koga

 

[Omimi]

Because those are not Naruto and Sasuke power lmao, nor it help them to amp their justu, merely there to sealing kaguya.

sasuke and naruto moon creation is10zt

and huring/tanking her need atleast 200zt

that simple thing prove how wrong thinking that seals has more chakra then naruto

 

[TataHakai]

My apologies for taking so long, was asleep, i will adress Imade's arguments once again so give me a bit to write out my counters

 

[Rocker1189]

gotta add the votes for Imades side too.

 

[Omimi]

also those who agree with Downgrade forgetting again

that naruto and sasuke scale to kaguya. they also scale to momo.

even if they don't scale to hagoromo.

they would be still 5-B anyway so Downgrade wont happen.

 

[TataHakai]

Rinnega

"He was so obsessed with power that he stole some of Hashirama's. Which in short, caused the merging of part of Ashura's Chakra with Indra's Chakra and result in the derivation of my own Chakra's power. That's right, the awakening of the Rinnegan."

I think it's funny that you literally posted a quote that debunks your own point but aren't aware of it, but let me point out the bit that debunks it for you anyways, the rinnegan is a DERIVATION OF HAGOROMO'S CHAKRA'S POWER, AKA, THE RINNEGAN IS GAINED BY GAINING HAGOROMO'S POWER

Derivation: he action of obtaining something from a source or origin.

Like i said before and like you posted

, it took madara DECADES to unlock the rinnegan using the ashura and indra method, Sasuke got Hashirama's chakra at chapter 661 and yet Sasuke did not unlock his rinnegan until chapter 673

chapter 661 page 11


chapter 661 page 17, no rinnegan despite Hashirama's chakra because that method takes too long to achieve rinnega

Hell he DOESN'T even have a rinnegan even 10 chapters later at 671

chapter 671, still no rinnega

, but when does he INSTANTLY achieve a rinnegan? When Hagoromo gives him his power

Instantly achieves rinnegan after hagoromo hands him his power

The 4th Databook CONFIRMS what i'm saying, i literally have Manga context AND the databook backing my point up
""" From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…"""

So Sasuke achieved Rinnegan the INSTANT when he got Hagoromo's power AND the databook tells us Hagoromo gave it to him and you want us to go with YOUR headcanon? Yeah no Imade, it's time to concede this point since you're literally just dragging it on when everything goes against you here


Six Paths Senjutsu

You've used pretty much TWO scans for this "point" of yours this entire time and both are blatantly bad to use as an argument

I will explain why

The first one is this

, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with six paths senjutsu buddy, it's literally a reference to the infinite tsukiyomi and how to undo it, i'm not sure if i have to explain further to you that nowhere here does it talk about the six paths senjutsu or hagoromo but i guess we can move o
The second scan is the Madara one, you seem to be under the understanding that "You need all 9 bijuu for six paths senjutsu because Madara and Naruto both have six paths senjutsu so that must be the only way"

This is false and i will prove it with just 2 scans

Ashura otsutsuki with TSB which is proof of six paths senjutsu, are you going to tell me that Ashura also had been the ten tails Jinchuuriki despite Hagoromo spreading the ten tails across the world as the 9 new born beasts

This is PROOF that you can get six paths senjutsu WITHOUT the 9 tailed beasts, and i hate using Wiki generally but we do use the Naruto wikia at times, i will use it as support for my argument that people have agreed on this for years

"The Six Paths Senjutsu is a heightened form of senjutsu used by the Ten-Tails' jinchüriki, Hamura Ōtsutsuki and those who obtain Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power." - Naruto Wikia on Six paths senjutsu

"Hagoromo and Hamura Ōtsutsuki were also able to utilise this senjutsu, with the former giving power to his son Asura Ōtsutsuki and his descendant Naruto Uzumaki to allow them both to receive this senjutsu as well" - Naruto Wikia on Six paths Senjutsu

Highlighted the important part, simply gaining Hagoromo's chakra is ENOUGH to have six paths senjutsu, which again, supports my point, case made and we can move on from the stupidity of them unlocking Rinnegan and Six paths senjutsu by themselves despite the fact that literally every bit of context, statements and shown lore debunks you.

Hell, Hagoromo AFTER removing all tailed beasts from his body STILL had the Markings of six paths senjutsu on his back, which YOU admitted is the indicator for six paths senjutsu

, it's a little small to see but yoy can clearly make out the top circle and then the 9 small circles below it, same as Naruto
So are you going to sit here and say Hagoromo who just split the entire 9 bijuu into different beasts and STILL had six paths senjutsu somehow bypassed the headcanon you're proposing alone? Or that Ashura somehow became the ten tails jinchuuriki despite that meaning he literally goes against his entire character and the lore of the verse?

This argument is utter rubbish and you need to stop wasting my time on it. Let's move on to the other blatantly wrong arguments you've made in this thread.





"Sage of Six Paths Mode was given to him by Hagoromo, it's a mode of heightened awareness and better Chakra control. It increases his speed to a level that matches Madara as stated in the databook.

That's it.

Naruto maintains Six Paths powers due to still retaining Six Paths Senjutsu, to retain that he must have the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, which he still does and it's further extrapolated upon in Shikamaru Hiden"

Already debunked the notion that the ONLY way to achieve six paths senjutsu is via the chakra of the 9 bijuu, so you don't NEED to have the chakra, Hagoromo's is an alternative to gaining it, just like Hagoromo's is an alternative to gaining this senjutsu, so again, let's move on.

Indra and Ashura

I'm not sure how you keep posting scans that prove your own points moot but i guess i'll need to once again point them out to you so you can stop using them in your own headcanons


Ashura awakened the POWER of bodily chakra he got from Hagoromo himself, now what is Bodily chakra? It's physical, aka Yang energy And as we know from Kaguya, you can pass down Chakra from Children,

this EXPLAINS why Ashura had six paths senjutsu, he had finally awakened the power of yang chakra passed down to him by his father Hagoromo, this is literally the only explanation that doens't contradict what we already know nor the lore of the verse, i'm pretty sure i don't need to focus on this matter any longer.


Hagoromo and Half his chakra

This is largely another bad and actually pretty irrelevant argument to make

Let's say Hagoromo didn't give them half his chakra each, not exactly 50%, ok well then you'd be right to say we have no proof but again as i stated, it's an irrelevant argument to make

What we know:

> Hagoromo gives them his power
> He gives them so much power that he can't even summon them and the tailed beasts from Kaguya's dimension
> We know he's talking about kuchiyose summoning which has been there since part 1
> Kuchiyose summoning DEPENDS on the size of the Size of the summoned object, this never changes even with power progression, it becomes easier to summon later on because they get more chakra, Jiraiya proves to us that the less chakra you use the smaller your summo

So we know that Hagoromo gave away so much Chakra that he couldn't use a summoning jutsu for 9 tailed beasts and 4 human beings, now how much would it take to even summon one of them?

Naruto in part 1 with a TINY bit of Kurama's chakra was able to summon Gamabunta who was around Equal in size to Shukaku, this will be the baseline for the technique

Hagoromo would've only needed 9x part 1 Naruto's amount of chakra to be able to use the jutsu at that point YET he did not have enough to

make the summoning
Even if he didn't give away ALL of his chakra, which by the way YOU have to prove since Occam's razor dictates that he did, YOU need to prove that he still had chakra left when after giving his chakra away Hagoromo literally says he doesn't have enough to use a basic part 1 jutsu, he still gave away 99% and possibly more, just on the basis that he has tens of millions times a bigger chakra reserver than part 1 Naruto


"Even worse, Hagoromo still had Chakra after granting Chakra to Naruto and Sasuke. Which means we can't even say he split his Chakra evenly onto them. "

Please please show us a single scan that proves Hagoromo had chakra

"Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages."

Again irrelevant considering him even needing help means he gave away NIGH every single bit of chakra he had

"Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world."

I've never in my life seen someone ignore so much Lore and propose so much Headcanon in a single debate, please point to a single scan in the entire series that suggests you need to use chakra as a spirit to remain in the ninja world, hell even QUANTIFY the amount of chakra that Hagoromo needed to use to remain, no? Yeah ok let's stop with the bad arguments

"Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage."

Again, there's absolutely no quantification for how much chakra is necessary to end Edo tensei and all those gokage together don't equal a single tailed beast in size, none of this is relevant

So to sum up my points

> Debunked Six path senjutsu being only available via 9 tailed beasts by showing Asura with TSB, an ability only achievable via Six paths senjutsu, Showing Hagoromo with six paths senjutsu surrounded by tailed beasts, Showing the Naruto wikia agreeing with me and debunking your headcanon that the ONLY way to get it is through 9 tailed beasts, which by the way you've still yet to show a single scan that says there's no other way whilst i've proven there is

> Debunked Rinnegan issue once again, kinda getting tiring at this point

> Debunked the idea that Ashura didn't get Hagoromo's power, which is backed by him having Six paths senjutsu which can only happen via Hagoromo's power, supported this with the idea that Kaguya proves to us that power can be given through birth

> Finally EVEN if Hagoromo didn't give away all chakra, he still gave them enough to make it irrelevant how much he had left, enough to make them 5-B and this whole downgrade post irrelevant

 

[TataHakai]

Vote tally updated, let me know if i've missed anyone.

 

[AstralKing7]

Nice job

 

[EviLMinded358]

I disagree with the downgrade. I'm going to go with Tata here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Funny how the anime is supposdely being used to argue for a downgrade but it's 2019 and peeps will refuse to use the anime for Ranton Koga

What's Ranton Koga?

 

[TataHakai]

Funny how the anime is supposdely being used to argue for a downgrade but it's 2019 and peeps will refuse to use the anime for Ranton Koga

What's Ranton Koga?

Light Fang

 

[AshenCrow777]

God i had to read through both threads what a read and cluster ****.

And i agree with TtaHakai this whole downgrade is stupid honestly and the arguments for the pro downgrade is extremely contradictory and rely on tricking people by trying to phrase important and actual info out of context back peddling plus head cannon A LOT OF IT plus that shady dealing of editing thread behind people's back is just a big no no.


Also i dont want to be that guy and i know that sometimes people can be wrong but IMade for being a knowledgeable member of the naruto community.


You don't look so knowledgeable to me imo.

 

[BMWFanboy]

What's Ranton Koga?

Fang of Light

 

[BMWFanboy]

After this point, I'm p sure what's gonna follow are repetitions of previous arguments. So will this thread go on till the end of time or how do we go about ending it

 

[BlackeJan]

@BWM

It's what I've said as well in the previous thread. We need to wait for @Shadow and @Kep to provide their arguments then once they have done that then we can just get this over with and move on. I'm busy right now so can someone ask Kep so say something here?

 

[Birgi_Emir_Özyavru]

After reading both threads, I agree with Tatahakai. The downgrade is unfounded.

 

[RM97]

I've seen both the threads, and based on that I'm inclined to agree with Tatahakai. This downgrade seems based on too much headcanon.

 

[Sekusu]

Iam netural for now..btw what does headcanon mean?

 

[TataHakai]

Iam netural for now..btw what does headcanon mean?

Proposing your own ideas instead of what the actual series says.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Someone give me the cliff notes for both sides please?

 

[Rocker1189]

IMade: Hagoromo did not give them each half his power. Here are some scan

TataHakai: He did. Here are more.

End.

 

[AstralKing7]

That^ exactly but people still agree with him ƒñúƒñ¿ƒñ¿ƒñ¿

 

[Omimi]

well imade said only seals had hagoromo chakra

even if we agree that wont change a things reason

1.seal job is to seal kaguya power and create the moon


2.10zt is for moon lifting not moon creation


3.moon creation=/=moon lifting


see what i mean lol

 

[Animeking500]

i disagree with a downgrade

 

[Animeking500]

like why the naruto god tiers need a downgrade for it just doesn't make any sense at all

 

[AppleLord]

I disagree with the downgrade. Adult Naruto still has the Six Path seal mark on his arm which grew back with Hashirama's cells in the Boruto manga which is still canon to the story.

 

[Rocker1189]

actually that is a mistake, but other reasons brough tup make sense.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I disagree with the downgrade. Adult Naruto still has the Six Path seal mark on his arm which grew back with Hashirama's cells in the Boruto manga which is still canon to the story.

It didn't grew back, Tsunade made a new arm with Hashirama's cells.

 

[AppleLord]

I disagree with the downgrade. Adult Naruto still has the Six Path seal mark on his arm which grew back with Hashirama's cells in the Boruto manga which is still canon to the story.

It didn't grew back, Tsunade made a new arm with Hashirama's cells.

Yeah, I forgot about that detail. Thanks.

If someone asks here is the raw scan.