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Naruto God Tiers Downgrade (Continued)
- Thread starter TataHakai
- Start date
- Status
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....Why I did not remember this is something i'll never know. Thanks for pointing this out.Adam of darkness said:
This is a good point. Like, a really good point. Chakra being concentrated into single points or areas in Naruto has always taken physical visible form. Kurama's chakra, Rasengan, Chidori, and several others. But the seals didn't showcase anything like that and this is assuming the "chakra being concentrated into them" bit is remotely plausible for arguments sake.
The fact that the "shining" depiction we see from the scan is only visible when Kaguya views it via Byakugan is clear cut evidence that the seals didnt have chakra impeded into it like some argue. Because then it would be visible chakra like the series has always portrayed it to be. This is just more evidence that Kaguya was just noticing that they had the seals. So this completely debunks the idea that chakra was being concentrated there.
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Yo Tata wanted me to tell u guys that he has to sleep now because it is very late for him. He will return to address what has been brought up
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Maybe because the examples being brought up are when they're actually releasing said chakra into the world? While the seals are just acting as a storage for the chakra from Hagoromo, untile they get used to seal Kaguya. Adam of darkness just brought up a different case without realising that it's different for a reason.
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Considering the fact that chakra still wasnt visibly seen when Kaguya was actually sealed, that is not an argument.
There is no difference between the seals and how chakra concentration in the series works. Both cases would involve chakra being concentrated into a point and as shown throughout the entire series, chakra becomes visible whenever that happens. But the seals did not do that at all. Not when the technique was used or not used. The "shining" bit is simply Kaguya noticing that they have the seals in their posession.
It's a complete debunk, through and through.
There is no difference between the seals and how chakra concentration in the series works. Both cases would involve chakra being concentrated into a point and as shown throughout the entire series, chakra becomes visible whenever that happens. But the seals did not do that at all. Not when the technique was used or not used. The "shining" bit is simply Kaguya noticing that they have the seals in their posession.
It's a complete debunk, through and through.
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I suggest you to read the comment again. The opposition is exactly insinuating that most of the chakra hagoromo gave is present in the seal because it glowing brightly. The chakra pathway inside the arm is not glowing brightly, the area surrounding the arm is .RegisNex1232 said:
Which makes no sense. Examples I used are fine, and breaks apart the premise of imade's arguement.
The glowing part is just to put emphasis on what kaguya is looking at.
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I don't think you understand burden of proof.Xerkser500 said:
I'm saying they aren't 5-B for not receiving 5-B Chakra from Hagoromo.
The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra.
Hashirama Gave Sasuke His Chakra
Apparently you didn't read the scan at all then, Hashirama literally states that he's giving Sasuke his Chakra as well, not just a Jutsu:
"I'll give you all of my remaining Chakra... so stop Madara."
All we know about Ashura is what Hagoromo told us given that the anime isn't canon.
Ashura was born having no power and awakened power after having friends.
Hagoromo literally made it a point that he didn't give Ashura power, Ashura awakened his own power.
Everyone saying Hagoromo gave Ashura power is mistaken when Hagoromo literally gave us a history lesson on the past.
Also, seals don't have visible Chakra. Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.
Those reasonings are just misinformation.
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Mmm feed it to me
Information that is
Information that is
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I don't think you understand burden of proof.
I'm saying they aren't 5-B for not receiving 5-B Chakra from Hagoromo.
The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra
Getting desperate at this point. First it was "Hagoromo took back the seal in which most of his chakra was present!" and now its "Uhhhhh you cant prove he gave 50% of his chakra to each of them!!"
Back paddling is strong here. But anyways lets break this arguement too. We know for a fact that
(1) Hagoromo gave equal chakra to both Naruto and Sasuke, that is not debatable whatsoever
(2) Hagoromo gave them enough chakra that he did not have enough chakra to even reverse summon them. It is safe to say he gave them most of his chakra. But before you again nitpick this point because you are pretty desperate at this point, we will put a valid number to it. 75% sounds good to you?
Hagoromo's feat is 400 Zettatons correct? Divide it by half, we get 200 Zettatons. Remove 25% from it, we still get 150 Zettatons, which is still Planet level
Still not satisfied? Lets assume hagoromo only gave 30% of his chakra to them. We still get 60 Zettatons which is, still, Planet level
Do note this is just to showcase how useless arguing over this point is, we all know Hagoromo likely gave 90-ish% of his chakra, but I am just entertaining this arguement to show how dumb it actually is. Do you have any other point by which you would like to twist the narration to desperately downgrade Naruto?
I'm saying they aren't 5-B for not receiving 5-B Chakra from Hagoromo.
The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra
Getting desperate at this point. First it was "Hagoromo took back the seal in which most of his chakra was present!" and now its "Uhhhhh you cant prove he gave 50% of his chakra to each of them!!"
Back paddling is strong here. But anyways lets break this arguement too. We know for a fact that
(1) Hagoromo gave equal chakra to both Naruto and Sasuke, that is not debatable whatsoever
(2) Hagoromo gave them enough chakra that he did not have enough chakra to even reverse summon them. It is safe to say he gave them most of his chakra. But before you again nitpick this point because you are pretty desperate at this point, we will put a valid number to it. 75% sounds good to you?
Hagoromo's feat is 400 Zettatons correct? Divide it by half, we get 200 Zettatons. Remove 25% from it, we still get 150 Zettatons, which is still Planet level
Still not satisfied? Lets assume hagoromo only gave 30% of his chakra to them. We still get 60 Zettatons which is, still, Planet level
Do note this is just to showcase how useless arguing over this point is, we all know Hagoromo likely gave 90-ish% of his chakra, but I am just entertaining this arguement to show how dumb it actually is. Do you have any other point by which you would like to twist the narration to desperately downgrade Naruto?
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Same
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>The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra.
Except, it isnt. The burden of proof is on you to prove he didnt because it makes absolutely 0 sense to assume he didnt. Occams Razor, he gave them an even amount of chakra. Hagoromo clearly doesnt want one of them to struggle or possibly die in their situation and hinder their chances of success. That, and he doesnt suddenly have favoritism for Naruto over Sasuke and vice versa. So why would you think he didnt give them an even amount in the first place? Everything points to him giving him an even amount unless explitly proven otherwise. Which you havent done.
>You'd be wrong if you think you countered this, the Byakugan sees Chakra and Chakra Pathways.
Okay?
>We get direct confirmation with her Byakugan that she sees the Chakra in their hands.
No we dont. We get confirmation that shes aware that Naruto and Sasuke have the sealing jutsu in their possession, which falls in line with Kaguya simply noticing they have the seals. Your own highlight in the scan even addresses this for me.
Being aware that they have a jutsu in their possession =/= seeing some massive build up of chakra in their palms.
>The Byakugan can't see Jutsu, it can only see Chakra Pathways and she sees the large amount of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo bestowed the Moon and Sun seals.
But it can see physical distinctions on a persons body. And that's exactly the case here when the seal markings are visible right on their hands. She sees the markings and puts 2 and 2 together. All I need really.
>Spirits in Naruto have Chakra. This was already a CRT on VS Wiki that was accepted. Using up all Chakra means you die, we learned this in like in the early 20's chapters of Naruto
Which means what here exactly? Hagoromo is already dead, he is a spirit. A spirit in Naruto absolutely doesn't need chakra for any kind of action, except for using jutsu. Which Hagoromo at that point could not do on his lonesome. So, again, evidence that Hagoromo didnt have all of his chakra given away? Because your scan doesnt prove this one bit.
Spirits in Naruto being able to have chakra doesnt mean that they actually need it. Besides when wanting to use Jutsu.
>Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages.
This helps my argument even more. He had the other gokage help him with the jutsu, which speaks more to Hagoromo not having chakra than having any left at all prior. So your just giving my argument of him not having chakra left more ammo.
>On top of that, Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.
Via off screen methods that arent known or shown. All we know is that he said he "called" them. Which doesnt automatically mean he actively summoned them as opposed to just simply requesting them to come on their own.
So nothing says he used chakra for this. Especially when he couldnt since he couldnt even summon T7 back from an alternate time-space on his own. Why assume he could do so for a bigger number of spirits from the afterlife?
>Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.
Actually he isnt. We never actively see Hagoromo undo anything. The Gokage themselves are the ones who leave. Its not Hagoromos doing.
Especially since Hagoromo doesnt know the required signs to undo the jutsu.
>Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world.
Literally nothing says he needs chakra to stay in the living world. More assumption.
> Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.
Sorry, have to respond to this too. What the hell does this have anything to do with the "chakra as visible forms" points? Like seriously, what?
Except, it isnt. The burden of proof is on you to prove he didnt because it makes absolutely 0 sense to assume he didnt. Occams Razor, he gave them an even amount of chakra. Hagoromo clearly doesnt want one of them to struggle or possibly die in their situation and hinder their chances of success. That, and he doesnt suddenly have favoritism for Naruto over Sasuke and vice versa. So why would you think he didnt give them an even amount in the first place? Everything points to him giving him an even amount unless explitly proven otherwise. Which you havent done.
>You'd be wrong if you think you countered this, the Byakugan sees Chakra and Chakra Pathways.
Okay?
>We get direct confirmation with her Byakugan that she sees the Chakra in their hands.
No we dont. We get confirmation that shes aware that Naruto and Sasuke have the sealing jutsu in their possession, which falls in line with Kaguya simply noticing they have the seals. Your own highlight in the scan even addresses this for me.
Being aware that they have a jutsu in their possession =/= seeing some massive build up of chakra in their palms.
>The Byakugan can't see Jutsu, it can only see Chakra Pathways and she sees the large amount of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo bestowed the Moon and Sun seals.
But it can see physical distinctions on a persons body. And that's exactly the case here when the seal markings are visible right on their hands. She sees the markings and puts 2 and 2 together. All I need really.
>Spirits in Naruto have Chakra. This was already a CRT on VS Wiki that was accepted. Using up all Chakra means you die, we learned this in like in the early 20's chapters of Naruto
Which means what here exactly? Hagoromo is already dead, he is a spirit. A spirit in Naruto absolutely doesn't need chakra for any kind of action, except for using jutsu. Which Hagoromo at that point could not do on his lonesome. So, again, evidence that Hagoromo didnt have all of his chakra given away? Because your scan doesnt prove this one bit.
Spirits in Naruto being able to have chakra doesnt mean that they actually need it. Besides when wanting to use Jutsu.
>Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages.
This helps my argument even more. He had the other gokage help him with the jutsu, which speaks more to Hagoromo not having chakra than having any left at all prior. So your just giving my argument of him not having chakra left more ammo.
>On top of that, Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.
Via off screen methods that arent known or shown. All we know is that he said he "called" them. Which doesnt automatically mean he actively summoned them as opposed to just simply requesting them to come on their own.
So nothing says he used chakra for this. Especially when he couldnt since he couldnt even summon T7 back from an alternate time-space on his own. Why assume he could do so for a bigger number of spirits from the afterlife?
>Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.
Actually he isnt. We never actively see Hagoromo undo anything. The Gokage themselves are the ones who leave. Its not Hagoromos doing.
Especially since Hagoromo doesnt know the required signs to undo the jutsu.
>Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world.
Literally nothing says he needs chakra to stay in the living world. More assumption.
> Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.
Sorry, have to respond to this too. What the hell does this have anything to do with the "chakra as visible forms" points? Like seriously, what?
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Backpedalling implies I have gone back on my words, in case you've forgotten, my argument has multiple points, it's not a singular one.Adam of darkness said:
The Chakra was in the seals, yet at the same time Hagoromo obviously did not give them all his Chakra since he still retained some afterwards
No one is denying he gave them an even amount of Chakra, understand this.(1) Hagoromo gave equal chakra to both Naruto and Sasuke said:
What you need to prove is that Hagoromo gave them 50% of his Chakra each.
You also need to provide evidence that the Chakra Hagoromo gave to Naruto and Sasuke was for them to use as they please and majorly allocated in their Moon and Sun seal as we are shown and told through Kaguya and their discussions.
>We get direct confirmation with her Byakugan that she sees the Chakra in their hands.No we dont. We get confirmation that shes aware that Naruto and Sasuke have the sealing jutsu in their possession, which falls in line with Kaguya simply noticing they have the seals. Your own highlight in the scan even addresses this for me. Being aware that they have a jutsu in their possession =/= seeing some massive build up of chakra in their palms.
The Byakugan can't see Jutsus, it can only see Chakra.
She knows they have the Jutsu since she's the massive amount of Chakra in their dominant hands.
>The Byakugan can't see Jutsu, it can only see Chakra Pathways and she sees the large amount of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo bestowed the Moon and Sun seals. But it can see physical distinctions on a persons body. And that's exactly the case here when the seal markings are visible right on their hands. She sees the markings and puts 2 and 2 together. All I need really.
When can the Byakugan see physical distinctions on a body and how does that enable her to put two and two together?
Why would she know about the physical distinction it causes?
Why would it highlight the fact that she's seeing the Chakra Pathways and the Chakra in their hands?
If she was seeing the physical distinction it would solely show her seeing the distinctions, not Chakra.
This point was poorly constructed.
>Spirits in Naruto have Chakra. This was already a CRT on VS Wiki that was accepted. Using up all Chakra means you die, we learned this in like in the early 20's chapters of NarutoWhich means what here exactly? Hagoromo is already dead, he is a spirit. A spirit in Naruto absolutely doesn't need chakra for any kind of action, except for using jutsu. Which Hagoromo at that point could not do on his lonesome. So, again, evidence that Hagoromo didnt have all of his chakra given away? Because your scan doesnt prove this one bit. Spirits in Naruto being able to have chakra doesnt mean that they actually need it. Besides when wanting to use Jutsu.
I get to this point further down.
>Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages. This helps my argument even more. He had the other gokage help him with the jutsu, which speaks more to Hagoromo not having chakra than having any left at all prior. So your just giving my argument of him not having chakra left more ammo.
And who summoned the Gokage to help?
Hagoromo himself did, no one else could do that, there's no know Jutsu that could have done so except the Edo-Tensei and the Edo-Tensei wasn't used, so it was by Hagoromo.
>On top of that, Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.Via off screen methods that arent known or shown. All we know is that he said he "called" them. Which doesnt automatically mean he actively summoned them as opposed to just simply requesting them to come on their own. So nothing says he used chakra for this. Especially when he couldnt since he couldnt even summon T7 back from an alternate time-space on his own. Why assume he could do so for a bigger number of spirits from the afterlife?
Do you realize how much Chakra in takes to invade an alternate time-space that is not you own?
Obito literally made an entire point that invading alternate time-spaces that aren't your's takes an enormous amount of Chakra to go through, so much that he needed Sakura's Seal to do so.
On top of that, you're now assuming that Hagoromo somehow invaded the afterlife to search for spirits to ask them to come back like it was a favor. That's a large assumption and numerous assumptions.
If you were to invoke Occam's Razor it's simple that he just summoned them, which is supported by the fact that Hagoromo desummons the Gokage and sends them back on his own whim, something he could only do if he was the one to summon them.
>Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.Actually he isnt. We never actively see Hagoromo undo anything. The Gokage themselves are the ones who leave. Its not Hagoromos doing. Especially since Hagoromo doesnt know the required signs to undo the jutsu.
Hagoromo Removed the Gokage, Hagoromo Summoned the Gokage
This is wrong, Hagoromo literally said it himself that he would undo it.
A lot of these attempted rebuttals are literally wrong and just spreading false information.
>Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world. Literally nothing says he needs chakra to stay in the living world. More assumption.
If he didn't need Chakra then why was he on a time limit? What is limiting his time?
> Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto. Sorry, have to respond to this too. What the hell does this have anything to do with the "chakra as visible forms" points? Like seriously, what?
Everything? Seriously, everything.
It disproves this false narrative you made that Chakra has to be visible if there is a lot of it.
That's absolutely wrong.
We've never even seen seals have visible Chakra around them in such a manner.
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Kep has a response coming in too, he's had issues with his internet though the past day.BlackeJan said:
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>What you need to prove is that Hagoromo gave them 50% of his Chakra each.
Nothing proves he didnt lose all of his chakra to begin with so no I don't. Even with the benefit of the doubt, Adam already addressed why they would still be 5-B even if given as low as 30% of his chakra each with nitpicking.
Also no, the 400 Zettaton feat Hagoromo did with his brother fully goes to him later on and his page even specifies this. Whether Naruto and Sasuke scale or not, Hagoromo gets the full value of the calc by giving them the capability of doing the same thing he and Hamura did on his lonesome.
>You also need to provide evidence that the Chakra Hagoromo gave to Naruto and Sasuke was for them to use as they please and majorly allocated in their Moon and Sun seal as we are shown and told through Kaguya and their discussions.
Besides what Tata already brought forth, how about them being able to fight against opponents who are relative to or superior to Hagoromo? Without getting blatantly one shotted? Thats a start.
Hagoromo wouldnt be stupid enough to give them only an ability that wouldnt help them in the slightest if their overall strength in general wasn't boosted.
>The Byakugan can't see Jutsus, it can only see Chakra.
And i'll repeat my last reply to this since you seemed to have either ignored it or missed it.
"But it can see physical distinctions on a persons body. And that's exactly the case here when the seal markings are visible right on their hands. She sees the markings and puts 2 and 2 together. All I need really."
Adding to this, the seals weren't actively used yet, so why wouldnt the Byakugan be able to notice it anyway?
>Why would she know about the physical distinction it causes? Why would it highlight the fact that she's seeing the Chakra Pathways and the Chakra in their hands?
Because she isnt...seeing the chakra in their hands? Nothing highlights that? This is the biggest problem with you and everyone that sides with this. There's nothing proving the "shining" glow around their hands is chakra being embeded into the seals. Your assuming it is.
We get no statement, no confirmation, or anything about what the glow around their hands is when it can simply be that Kaguya is noticing that they have the seals Hagoromo gave them on their hands.
>If she was seeing the physical distinction it would solely show her seeing the distinctions, not Chakra.
Which is exactly what im saying the "glow" is. That their hands "glowing" is simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more. There's nothing proving the glow around their hands is chakra. At all.
>Do you realize how much Chakra in takes to invade an alternate time-space that is not you own?
Yes and? Hagoromo isnt exactly the ruler of the afterlife. So he'd have no better chances of summoning a greater number of others from the afterlife than he would re-summoning T7 from one of Kaguya's time-spaces.
So you cannot assume Hagoromo used any technique to summon them as opposed to him just requesting them to the living world for a short period of time.
>On top of that, you're now assuming that Hagoromo somehow invaded the afterlife to search for spirits to ask them to come back like it was a favor. That's a large assumption and numerous assumptions.
You...do realize spirits in Naruto can freely travel between the living and afterworlds right? Hagoromo actively came to the living from the spirit world so why assume he cannot freely go back, request help, and come back again? This doesnt take as much assumption as assuming Hagoromo did this with a technique which would be impossible for him to do at that moment.
Plus, Hagoromo wouldnt be the first one to do this anyway. Obito did this the moment Kaguya killed him. He went to the afterlife, came back to possess Kakashi, and then left again once T7 stopped her. Blatant evidence of spirits traveling between the worlds at will. There's no reason to assume Hagoromo cannot if Obito can.
>This is wrong, Hagoromo literally said it himself that he would undo it.
And yet, we don't actively see this on-panel whatsoever. The Kage literally just up and vanish on their own while Hagoromo sits and watches the entire time.
So either Hagoromo didnt need to actively send them back afterall or he used a seperate method that wasnt a jutsu.
>If he didn't need Chakra then why was he on a time limit? What is limiting his time?
Because spirits from the afterlife cannot remain in the living world forever? Either way, there's nothing said whatsoever that Hagoromo's time in the living world was based on his chakra resevoir so you cannot assume it had anything to do with him running out of time in the living world.
>It disproves this false narrative you made that Chakra has to be visible if there is a lot of it.
It disproves absolutely nothing because it's not a false narrative. It's a blatant fact that the entire course of the series has given to us and anyone who actually knows Naruto would know this.
Kurama's chakra, Naruto's rasengan, Sasuke/Kakashi's chidori and many others are all examples of chakra being clearly visible when concentrated at one point. So if tis narrative of these sun and moon seals having the chakra embeded into them on Naruto and Sasuke's dominant hands was remotely plausible, the chakra concentrated there would be visible and not only seeable to the Byakugan eye (if you take the "glowing around their hands" bit as chakra). It wasnt visible period. Not before the technique was used or when it was used. So that disproves any claim that there was chakra gathered there.
Using the "one tailed Naruto being superior to Base Adult Naruto" point had absolutely nothing to do with this and was just completely unrelated. Hence why I had 0 idea why you even brought this up in the first place.
Nothing proves he didnt lose all of his chakra to begin with so no I don't. Even with the benefit of the doubt, Adam already addressed why they would still be 5-B even if given as low as 30% of his chakra each with nitpicking.
Also no, the 400 Zettaton feat Hagoromo did with his brother fully goes to him later on and his page even specifies this. Whether Naruto and Sasuke scale or not, Hagoromo gets the full value of the calc by giving them the capability of doing the same thing he and Hamura did on his lonesome.
>You also need to provide evidence that the Chakra Hagoromo gave to Naruto and Sasuke was for them to use as they please and majorly allocated in their Moon and Sun seal as we are shown and told through Kaguya and their discussions.
Besides what Tata already brought forth, how about them being able to fight against opponents who are relative to or superior to Hagoromo? Without getting blatantly one shotted? Thats a start.
Hagoromo wouldnt be stupid enough to give them only an ability that wouldnt help them in the slightest if their overall strength in general wasn't boosted.
>The Byakugan can't see Jutsus, it can only see Chakra.
And i'll repeat my last reply to this since you seemed to have either ignored it or missed it.
"But it can see physical distinctions on a persons body. And that's exactly the case here when the seal markings are visible right on their hands. She sees the markings and puts 2 and 2 together. All I need really."
Adding to this, the seals weren't actively used yet, so why wouldnt the Byakugan be able to notice it anyway?
>Why would she know about the physical distinction it causes? Why would it highlight the fact that she's seeing the Chakra Pathways and the Chakra in their hands?
Because she isnt...seeing the chakra in their hands? Nothing highlights that? This is the biggest problem with you and everyone that sides with this. There's nothing proving the "shining" glow around their hands is chakra being embeded into the seals. Your assuming it is.
We get no statement, no confirmation, or anything about what the glow around their hands is when it can simply be that Kaguya is noticing that they have the seals Hagoromo gave them on their hands.
>If she was seeing the physical distinction it would solely show her seeing the distinctions, not Chakra.
Which is exactly what im saying the "glow" is. That their hands "glowing" is simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more. There's nothing proving the glow around their hands is chakra. At all.
>Do you realize how much Chakra in takes to invade an alternate time-space that is not you own?
Yes and? Hagoromo isnt exactly the ruler of the afterlife. So he'd have no better chances of summoning a greater number of others from the afterlife than he would re-summoning T7 from one of Kaguya's time-spaces.
So you cannot assume Hagoromo used any technique to summon them as opposed to him just requesting them to the living world for a short period of time.
>On top of that, you're now assuming that Hagoromo somehow invaded the afterlife to search for spirits to ask them to come back like it was a favor. That's a large assumption and numerous assumptions.
You...do realize spirits in Naruto can freely travel between the living and afterworlds right? Hagoromo actively came to the living from the spirit world so why assume he cannot freely go back, request help, and come back again? This doesnt take as much assumption as assuming Hagoromo did this with a technique which would be impossible for him to do at that moment.
Plus, Hagoromo wouldnt be the first one to do this anyway. Obito did this the moment Kaguya killed him. He went to the afterlife, came back to possess Kakashi, and then left again once T7 stopped her. Blatant evidence of spirits traveling between the worlds at will. There's no reason to assume Hagoromo cannot if Obito can.
>This is wrong, Hagoromo literally said it himself that he would undo it.
And yet, we don't actively see this on-panel whatsoever. The Kage literally just up and vanish on their own while Hagoromo sits and watches the entire time.
So either Hagoromo didnt need to actively send them back afterall or he used a seperate method that wasnt a jutsu.
>If he didn't need Chakra then why was he on a time limit? What is limiting his time?
Because spirits from the afterlife cannot remain in the living world forever? Either way, there's nothing said whatsoever that Hagoromo's time in the living world was based on his chakra resevoir so you cannot assume it had anything to do with him running out of time in the living world.
>It disproves this false narrative you made that Chakra has to be visible if there is a lot of it.
It disproves absolutely nothing because it's not a false narrative. It's a blatant fact that the entire course of the series has given to us and anyone who actually knows Naruto would know this.
Kurama's chakra, Naruto's rasengan, Sasuke/Kakashi's chidori and many others are all examples of chakra being clearly visible when concentrated at one point. So if tis narrative of these sun and moon seals having the chakra embeded into them on Naruto and Sasuke's dominant hands was remotely plausible, the chakra concentrated there would be visible and not only seeable to the Byakugan eye (if you take the "glowing around their hands" bit as chakra). It wasnt visible period. Not before the technique was used or when it was used. So that disproves any claim that there was chakra gathered there.
Using the "one tailed Naruto being superior to Base Adult Naruto" point had absolutely nothing to do with this and was just completely unrelated. Hence why I had 0 idea why you even brought this up in the first place.
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>Which is exactly what im saying the "glow" is. That their hands "glowing" is simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more. There's nothing proving the glow around their hands is chakra. At all.
Lmao Nothing proving the glow around their handsis not chakra and just simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more. Nice headcanon.
>And yet, we don't actively see this on-panel whatsoever. The Kage literally just up and vanish on their own while Hagoromo sits and watches the entire time.
Lmao Now you using headcano based on your personal belief, oh the irony
Lmao Nothing proving the glow around their handsis not chakra and just simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more. Nice headcanon.
>And yet, we don't actively see this on-panel whatsoever. The Kage literally just up and vanish on their own while Hagoromo sits and watches the entire time.
Lmao Now you using headcano based on your personal belief, oh the irony
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Using the anime scan of Kaguya noticing the seals actually debunks those glows being chakra more than support.
Sasuke's "glow" around his hand is exactly the same color as his chakra network is. So that creates inconsistency when comparing it with Naruto's. The glow around Naruto's hand is the only implication you get that chakra was within his sun seal and the glow being a different color is only because Naruto is using his SO6P mode. The same mode he uses against Sasuke after losing the sun seal.
And again, to repeat previous points, if there was any concentrated chakra within the seals they would have been clearly visible like chakra concentration has always been portrayed as. These seals did not make chakra visible at all. Not before Kaguya was sealed or when she was. Unless you want to ignore the standard of how chakra is gathered in order to suit your narative, it flat out proves the chakra wasn't primarily focused into the seals.
Sasuke's "glow" around his hand is exactly the same color as his chakra network is. So that creates inconsistency when comparing it with Naruto's. The glow around Naruto's hand is the only implication you get that chakra was within his sun seal and the glow being a different color is only because Naruto is using his SO6P mode. The same mode he uses against Sasuke after losing the sun seal.
And again, to repeat previous points, if there was any concentrated chakra within the seals they would have been clearly visible like chakra concentration has always been portrayed as. These seals did not make chakra visible at all. Not before Kaguya was sealed or when she was. Unless you want to ignore the standard of how chakra is gathered in order to suit your narative, it flat out proves the chakra wasn't primarily focused into the seals.
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Anyway, I also need to go to bed so im finished with this discussion for now.
If Imade of whoever brings rebuttals for my points, i'll reply to them sometime tomorrow. That is if Tata hasnt already done so.
Good night everyone.
If Imade of whoever brings rebuttals for my points, i'll reply to them sometime tomorrow. That is if Tata hasnt already done so.
Good night everyone.
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>Nothing proves he didnt lose all of his chakra to begin with so no I don't (Need to prove it)
Um.. Xerk.. the burden of proof is on you actually. Yours is the positive claim and I can 100% confirm there is no actual proof that he gave them 50% of their power, and even if so its all used for the seal anyway, as we see in a very detailed picture above, the chakra in their hands.
Um.. Xerk.. the burden of proof is on you actually. Yours is the positive claim and I can 100% confirm there is no actual proof that he gave them 50% of their power, and even if so its all used for the seal anyway, as we see in a very detailed picture above, the chakra in their hands.
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>Using the anime scan of Kaguya noticing the seals actually debunks those glows being chakra more than support.
Lmao Anime expand what has been shown in the manga. It referring to the same thing, the thing in their hand is obviously is a chakra and not 'simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more' the visual in the anime make it easier to for us readers to distinguish that each one of them has massive chakra in their hand. Not ur headcanon who based on Nothing lmao
>And again, to repeat previous points, if there was any concentrated chakra within the seals they would have been clearly visible like chakra concentration has always been portrayed as.
Oh look now you using portrayed when you have no statement, no confirmation, or anything that say chakra will always behave like that lmao. When so far chakra will only been portrayed like that if the users try to extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
Remember you said this:
>We get no statement, no confirmation, or anything about what the glow around their hands is when it can simply be that Kaguya is noticing that they have the seals Hagoromo gave them on their hands.
Well we have visual evidence as a proof, what you have? Literally nothing but headcanon lmao.
Lmao Anime expand what has been shown in the manga. It referring to the same thing, the thing in their hand is obviously is a chakra and not 'simply to show us readers that Kaguya has noticed they have the seals and nothing more' the visual in the anime make it easier to for us readers to distinguish that each one of them has massive chakra in their hand. Not ur headcanon who based on Nothing lmao
>And again, to repeat previous points, if there was any concentrated chakra within the seals they would have been clearly visible like chakra concentration has always been portrayed as.
Oh look now you using portrayed when you have no statement, no confirmation, or anything that say chakra will always behave like that lmao. When so far chakra will only been portrayed like that if the users try to extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
Remember you said this:
>We get no statement, no confirmation, or anything about what the glow around their hands is when it can simply be that Kaguya is noticing that they have the seals Hagoromo gave them on their hands.
Well we have visual evidence as a proof, what you have? Literally nothing but headcanon lmao.
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Backpedalling implies I have gone back on my words, in case you've forgotten, my argument has multiple points, it's not a singular one.
The Chakra was in the seals, yet at the same time Hagoromo obviously did not give them all his Chakra since he still retained some afterwards"
Which you have, did you forgot where I pointed it out? Just because you have made multiple points does not negate the fact you packpedalled on one specific arguement. Hagoromo having a bit chakra is also something I already covered, but lets adressed that accordingly
"Hagoromo and Hamura's feat is 400 Zettatons, Hagoromo got 200 Zettatons.
How are you in this thread talking down about users for not knowing what they're saying when you made perhaps the biggest error here? Where is your evidence that Hagoromo gave them Chakra solely for Naruto and Sasuke to use how they please and not majorly allocated in the Moon and Sun seal as we're told and shown?
I assume you conceded on your "visible Chakra" point as you dropped it."
Hagoromo.... eventually got both seals, which means he is the only one who should factually get entire output, but sure I dont know what I am talking about. But lets go with split result to avoid any potential nitpicking which you are famous for. That is still 150 Zt, divided gives 75 Zt, still planet level.
And no I never conceded on that, no reason to do so when nothing of relevance was brought up to dismiss it. I did not adress it because I just noticed you added on small note in the end, which is just bs. COmparing a jinchurki cloak to base is stupid, seriously read Naruto from start this time.
I actually typed a response to your previous posting, but that got deleted which made me loose intrest. I will try to adress that now
The Chakra was in the seals, yet at the same time Hagoromo obviously did not give them all his Chakra since he still retained some afterwards"
Which you have, did you forgot where I pointed it out? Just because you have made multiple points does not negate the fact you packpedalled on one specific arguement. Hagoromo having a bit chakra is also something I already covered, but lets adressed that accordingly
"Hagoromo and Hamura's feat is 400 Zettatons, Hagoromo got 200 Zettatons.
How are you in this thread talking down about users for not knowing what they're saying when you made perhaps the biggest error here? Where is your evidence that Hagoromo gave them Chakra solely for Naruto and Sasuke to use how they please and not majorly allocated in the Moon and Sun seal as we're told and shown?
I assume you conceded on your "visible Chakra" point as you dropped it."
Hagoromo.... eventually got both seals, which means he is the only one who should factually get entire output, but sure I dont know what I am talking about. But lets go with split result to avoid any potential nitpicking which you are famous for. That is still 150 Zt, divided gives 75 Zt, still planet level.
And no I never conceded on that, no reason to do so when nothing of relevance was brought up to dismiss it. I did not adress it because I just noticed you added on small note in the end, which is just bs. COmparing a jinchurki cloak to base is stupid, seriously read Naruto from start this time.
I actually typed a response to your previous posting, but that got deleted which made me loose intrest. I will try to adress that now
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Might I remind everyone that Chakra (concentrated) doesn't remotely resemble this , but looks like this , on more than one occasio , even as far back as Part 1 , or for that matter , even Boruto , so if the Seals were carrying heavy amounts of Chakra, they would looklike this to a Byakugan eye, hell to even a normal eye, a heavy concentration of chakra will be visible to the human eye , which makes no sense considering the fact that the chakra in question is one of the strongest Chakra in the verse. But they don't, Kaguya explicitly calls them Jutsu. Chakra resembles a flame, a light emanating from the seals doesn't make it chakra
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I don't think you understand burden of proof.
I'm saying they aren't 5-B for not receiving 5-B Chakra from Hagoromo.
The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra.
Already adressed this nitpicking before
You'd be wrong if you think you countered this, the Byakugan sees Chakra and Chakra Pathways.
We get direct confirmation with her Byakugan that she sees the Chakra in their hands. The Byakugan can't see Jutsu, it can only see Chakra Pathways and she sees the large amount of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo bestowed the Moon and Sun seals
Yes, the byakugan indeed only sees chakra, due to which we see chakra anodes over entire body having constant flow, it is not concentrated at singular point. The colored panel which was ironically posted to favor opposite notion proves it.As visible, the chakra flow in his arms is just as normal as flow in his entire body . The brigthened part is just to put emphasis on what kaguya is looking at, idk how many times I have repeated this already
Spirits in Naruto have Chakra. This was already a CRT on VS Wiki that was accepted. Using up all Chakra means you die, we learned this in like in the early 20's chapters of Naruto.
Your point is moot.
Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages.
On top of that, Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.
Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.
Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world."
You make it sound like a tuff job, lets break this down lmao
(1) Hagoromo summoned naruto and co. with help of gokages
So he did not have enough chakra to summon them alone. Moving on
(2) Hagoromo brought gokages to help
You DO realise it is not hard to summon spirits in NV right...... fodders like kabuto and Orochimaru do this, without any exhaustion whatsoever. Hagoromo with just 0.01% of his power can do this tens of times with no exhaustion comparatively. And "All the remaining edo tenseis!" constitute to 5 characters. Kabuto brought army of edoes back to life.........
(3) Hagoromo still had chakra to remain in the world
Uh..... okay? Again, not exactly a tuff task for him.
Apparently you didn't read the scan at all then, Hashirama literally states that he's giving Sasuke his Chakra as well, not just a Jutsu:
"I'll give you all of my remaining Chakra... so stop Madara."
You are just beating the dead horse with this one. This is not arguable at this point
(1) DB directly stated sasuke recieved rinnegan from Hags. DB is written by kishimoto, do you know who he is? Writter of Naruto series
(2) Naturally it takes years upon years to finally activate a rinnegan. So even with both Indura and Ashura chakra inside him, it would have taken several years for it to activate. Hags without any doubt gave sasuke the rinnegan.
We know Naruto awakened Six Paths Senjutsu since in order to make Truth Seeking Balls you need Six Paths Senjutsu:
Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha
The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!
Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin―Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Tota"!
Six Paths Senjutsu = 9 Bijuu Chakra. The points are obvious in the fact those who had Truth Seeking Balls were solely those who had the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu. Obito, Madara and Naruto. Sasuke never got Six Paths Senjutsu because he didn't have the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu and he never had Truth Seeking Balls.
Again false, toneri exists and he has no bijuu chakra inside him. Point disproved, Next
Ashura and Indra were never given power from Hagoromo and Hagoromo admits this himself when talking about their history.
Indra was born with immense power and never worked with others, he achieved greater heights by working alone and being born special.
Ashura was born a dunce and couldn't really utilize his powers. However, per Hagoromo's own words, Ashura gains power by working with others and Indra was born with his powers:
"Elder brother Indra possessed strong ocular powers and senses from birth... he always did everything by himself, leaning only on his own strength and came to understand that his powers were different and special... On the other hand, nothing ever went well for little brother Ashura from the time he was small and he couldn't do anything all on his own. In order to attain the same power as his older brother he always needed the cooperation of others in addition to his own effort."
"While struggling through training, the power of bodily Chakra awakened within him and he attained power rivaling his brother's."
Nitpicking is hard with this one. Obviously both ashura and indura activated their power and became strong, no shit sherlock. Just like Hashirama and madara were the strongest of their time without any power up. Just like Naruto and Sasuke got stronger prior to meeting hags. Ashura also unlocked his potential and became stronger than his previous self. Naruto and Sasuke still got boost from Hags which made them stronger. Same with Ashura, hagoromo gave him the power. He litrally says that on screen, no amount of headcanon can outweight his own words.
Also, seals don't have visible Chakra. Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.
Those reasonings are just misinformation.
Calling it a misinformation does not make it one. this is equivalent of "Nu-uh!"
I'm saying they aren't 5-B for not receiving 5-B Chakra from Hagoromo.
The burden of proof is on you to prove he gave them exactly 50% each of his Chakra.
Already adressed this nitpicking before
You'd be wrong if you think you countered this, the Byakugan sees Chakra and Chakra Pathways.
We get direct confirmation with her Byakugan that she sees the Chakra in their hands. The Byakugan can't see Jutsu, it can only see Chakra Pathways and she sees the large amount of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo bestowed the Moon and Sun seals
Yes, the byakugan indeed only sees chakra, due to which we see chakra anodes over entire body having constant flow, it is not concentrated at singular point. The colored panel which was ironically posted to favor opposite notion proves it.As visible, the chakra flow in his arms is just as normal as flow in his entire body . The brigthened part is just to put emphasis on what kaguya is looking at, idk how many times I have repeated this already
Spirits in Naruto have Chakra. This was already a CRT on VS Wiki that was accepted. Using up all Chakra means you die, we learned this in like in the early 20's chapters of Naruto.
Your point is moot.
Plus, Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages.
On top of that, Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.
Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.
Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world."
You make it sound like a tuff job, lets break this down lmao
(1) Hagoromo summoned naruto and co. with help of gokages
So he did not have enough chakra to summon them alone. Moving on
(2) Hagoromo brought gokages to help
You DO realise it is not hard to summon spirits in NV right...... fodders like kabuto and Orochimaru do this, without any exhaustion whatsoever. Hagoromo with just 0.01% of his power can do this tens of times with no exhaustion comparatively. And "All the remaining edo tenseis!" constitute to 5 characters. Kabuto brought army of edoes back to life.........
(3) Hagoromo still had chakra to remain in the world
Uh..... okay? Again, not exactly a tuff task for him.
Apparently you didn't read the scan at all then, Hashirama literally states that he's giving Sasuke his Chakra as well, not just a Jutsu:
"I'll give you all of my remaining Chakra... so stop Madara."
You are just beating the dead horse with this one. This is not arguable at this point
(1) DB directly stated sasuke recieved rinnegan from Hags. DB is written by kishimoto, do you know who he is? Writter of Naruto series
(2) Naturally it takes years upon years to finally activate a rinnegan. So even with both Indura and Ashura chakra inside him, it would have taken several years for it to activate. Hags without any doubt gave sasuke the rinnegan.
We know Naruto awakened Six Paths Senjutsu since in order to make Truth Seeking Balls you need Six Paths Senjutsu:
Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha
The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!
Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin―Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Tota"!
Six Paths Senjutsu = 9 Bijuu Chakra. The points are obvious in the fact those who had Truth Seeking Balls were solely those who had the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu. Obito, Madara and Naruto. Sasuke never got Six Paths Senjutsu because he didn't have the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu and he never had Truth Seeking Balls.
Again false, toneri exists and he has no bijuu chakra inside him. Point disproved, Next
Ashura and Indra were never given power from Hagoromo and Hagoromo admits this himself when talking about their history.
Indra was born with immense power and never worked with others, he achieved greater heights by working alone and being born special.
Ashura was born a dunce and couldn't really utilize his powers. However, per Hagoromo's own words, Ashura gains power by working with others and Indra was born with his powers:
"Elder brother Indra possessed strong ocular powers and senses from birth... he always did everything by himself, leaning only on his own strength and came to understand that his powers were different and special... On the other hand, nothing ever went well for little brother Ashura from the time he was small and he couldn't do anything all on his own. In order to attain the same power as his older brother he always needed the cooperation of others in addition to his own effort."
"While struggling through training, the power of bodily Chakra awakened within him and he attained power rivaling his brother's."
Nitpicking is hard with this one. Obviously both ashura and indura activated their power and became strong, no shit sherlock. Just like Hashirama and madara were the strongest of their time without any power up. Just like Naruto and Sasuke got stronger prior to meeting hags. Ashura also unlocked his potential and became stronger than his previous self. Naruto and Sasuke still got boost from Hags which made them stronger. Same with Ashura, hagoromo gave him the power. He litrally says that on screen, no amount of headcanon can outweight his own words.
Also, seals don't have visible Chakra. Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.
Those reasonings are just misinformation.
Calling it a misinformation does not make it one. this is equivalent of "Nu-uh!"
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Oh look now you using portrayed when you have no statement, no confirmation, or anything that say chakra will always behave like that lmao. When so far chakra will only been portrayed like that if the users try to extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
You do realize your side's arguement itself is "The brightened part indicate heavy concentration of chakra" right? That "bright part" is located outside of his arm.... that brightned portion is already outside of their body...... she also notices the jutsu rather than chakra
Do you not understand your own arguement here
You do realize your side's arguement itself is "The brightened part indicate heavy concentration of chakra" right? That "bright part" is located outside of his arm.... that brightned portion is already outside of their body...... she also notices the jutsu rather than chakra
Do you not understand your own arguement here
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This was posted before but in different context, but this is exactly how byakugan sees chakra pathway. Constant chakra flow throughout the body vs concentration of chakra in a specific area
Purposely acting dense is not helping anyone here.
Purposely acting dense is not helping anyone here.
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Its not always like that, or else Rasengan, Rasengan Shuriken, Bijuu Dama , literally every technique made of concentration of chakra will have flames patternBMWFanboy said:
@Adam of darkness
Lmao see scan above, you can see concentration of chakra outside of their body, yet no visible chakra lmao, Chakra will only be visible like that if their users will try to physically extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
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That's incorrect, the calcs of the Chibaku Tensei done with Hagoromo and Hamura and the Chibaku Tensei done with Naruto and Sasuke have different yields and results, they aren't equivalent.Xerkser500 said:
Hagoromo and Hamura's has a 400zt yield, Naruto and Sasuke's had a 20zt yield.
Also:
Nothing proves he didnt lose all of his chakra to begin with so no I don't.
You need to prove he lost it all, I don't have to prove a negative.
I'm claiming he didn't use all his Chakra for Naruto and Sasuke. I've given evidence.
You need to provide evidence that I am wrong, you've never once posted a scan. The burden of proof is on you.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/8/8b/ChakraBright.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20190310063122[/IMG][/URL]
Kaguya Sees the Chakra in the Seals
So you're going to literally ignore what the Byakugan does and provide a theory instead?
The Byakugan can see through objects, far distances, visualize Chakra and the Chakra Pathways.
She can't even see neither Sasuke nor Naruto's palms to see the physical distinction.
Her vision is what we see on the scan, it's why Kishimoto drew it.
What Kaguya sees is a lot of Chakra in their dominant hands.
>Do you realize how much Chakra in takes to invade an alternate time-space that is not you own?Yes and? Hagoromo isnt exactly the ruler of the afterlife. So he'd have no better chances of summoning a greater number of others from the afterlife than he would re-summoning T7 from one of Kaguya's time-spaces. So you cannot assume Hagoromo used any technique to summon them as opposed to him just requesting them to the living world for a short period of time.
Chakra Teleportation
The size of an object accounts for how much Chakra it takes to summon and resummon.
Hagoromo was dealing with 9 Bijuu and all of Team 7, that's a lot of mass.
So not only does he have to deal with invading another Space-Time, he has to account for the sizes of the Bijuu.
It's a lot of Chakra, more so than the Gokage from the past given the sizes of them.
Again, this point holds no ground.
>On top of that, you're now assuming that Hagoromo somehow invaded the afterlife to search for spirits to ask them to come back like it was a favor. That's a large assumption and numerous assumptions.You...do realize spirits in Naruto can freely travel between the living and afterworlds right? Hagoromo actively came to the living from the spirit world so why assume he cannot freely go back, request help, and come back again? This doesnt take as much assumption as assuming Hagoromo did this with a technique which would be impossible for him to do at that moment. Plus, Hagoromo wouldnt be the first one to do this anyway. Obito did this the moment Kaguya killed him. He went to the afterlife, came back to possess Kakashi, and then left again once T7 stopped her. Blatant evidence of spirits traveling between the worlds at will. There's no reason to assume Hagoromo cannot if Obito can.
Spirits can't freely travel between worlds, otherwise we'd have a lot more spirits around.
There is a large instance that debunks this theory of your's:
The Edo-Tensei of the War. They weren't traveling around freely after their spirits were released. Your theory that spirits can travel freely holds no ground.
Again, it's a huge assumption to assume that Hagoromo went and asked each Gokage to help him, plus I already proved that Hagoromo desummoned the Gokage, thus he had summoned them.
This point of your's is bunk and you have no argument.
>This is wrong, Hagoromo literally said it himself that he would undo it.And yet, we don't actively see this on-panel whatsoever. The Kage literally just up and vanish on their own while Hagoromo sits and watches the entire time. So either Hagoromo didnt need to actively send them back afterall or he used a seperate method that wasnt a jutsu.
No, Hagoromo literally said so himself that he summoned them via this. It obviously happened off-panel since we are told by Hagoromo himself that he is the cause.
This isn't even an argument, you're being desperate.
>If he didn't need Chakra then why was he on a time limit? What is limiting his time? Because spirits from the afterlife cannot remain in the living world forever? Either way, there's nothing said whatsoever that Hagoromo's time in the living world was based on his chakra resevoir so you cannot assume it had anything to do with him running out of time in the living world.
You literally just said two points above that spirits can move freely as they choose.
I am not going to keep arguing with you when you're now contradicting yourself and saying things against canon.
>It disproves this false narrative you made that Chakra has to be visible if there is a lot of it.It disproves absolutely nothing because it's not a false narrative. It's a blatant fact that the entire course of the series has given to us and anyone who actually knows Naruto would know this.
Kurama's chakra, Naruto's rasengan, Sasuke/Kakashi's chidori and many others are all examples of chakra being clearly visible when concentrated at one point. So if tis narrative of these sun and moon seals having the chakra embeded into them on Naruto and Sasuke's dominant hands was remotely plausible, the chakra concentrated there would be visible and not only seeable to the Byakugan eye (if you take the "glowing around their hands" bit as chakra). It wasnt visible period. Not before the technique was used or when it was used. So that disproves any claim that there was chakra gathered there.
Using the "one tailed Naruto being superior to Base Adult Naruto" point had absolutely nothing to do with this and was just completely unrelated. Hence why I had 0 idea why you even brought this up in the first place.
Seals don't have visible Chakra, they've never have had visible Chakra.
Ninjutsu has visible Chakra because it's creating something physicals.
Fuinjutsu does not, it's literally a seal.
Your point is moot. The theory was that Chakra concetrated in a spot is visible, it's why Adam of Darkness brought up One Tail Naruto having visible Chakra around him.
However, that's obviously false when characters like Hashirama or Adult Naruto don't have visible Chakra around them in their base forms despite being superior and having a lot of Chakra.
Adam of darkness"]
Yes, the byakugan indeed only sees chakra, due to which we see chakra anodes over entire body having constant flow, it is not concentrated at singular point. The colored panel which was ironically posted to favor opposite notion proves it.As visible, the chakra flow in his arms is just as normal as flow in his entire body . The brigthened part is just to put emphasis on what kaguya is looking at, idk how many times I have repeated this already
Kaguya Sees the Chakra in the Seals
You will have to keep repeating it because you legitimately don't have a point here:
So you're going to literally ignore what the Byakugan does and provide a theory instead?
The Byakugan can see through objects, far distances, visualize Chakra and the Chakra Pathways.
She can't even see neither Sasuke nor Naruto's palms to see the seal.
Her vision is what we see on the scan, it's why Kishimoto drew it.
What Kaguya sees is a lot of Chakra in their dominant hands, the Byakugan only sees Chakra, far distances or through objects. We're seeing what she sees and she doesn't see the marks of the sealing, only Chakra.
(1) Hagoromo summoned naruto and co. with help of gokages
So he did not have enough chakra to summon them alone. Moving on
(2) Hagoromo brought gokages to help
You DO realise it is not hard to summon spirits in NV right...... fodders like kabuto and Orochimaru do this, without any exhaustion whatsoever. Hagoromo with just 0.01% of his power can do this tens of times with no exhaustion comparatively. And "All the remaining edo tenseis!" constitute to 5 characters. Kabuto brought army of edoes back to life.........
(3) Hagoromo still had chakra to remain in the world
Uh..... okay? Again, not exactly a tuff task for him.
My point isn't that Hagoromo had a lot of Chakra left, you're disfiguring my argument, don't do that.
My point was obviously that Hagoromo still had leftover Chakra from what he bequeathed to Naruto and Sasuke, thus no one can make the claim that Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke 50% of his Chakra for them to do with freely.
Plus the fact that it hasn't been proven that he even gave them Chakra to do with freely since we know a lot of it was located in their seals as seen through Kaguya.
(1) DB directly stated sasuke recieved rinnegan from Hags. DB is written by kishimoto, do you know who he is? Writter of Naruto series
(2) Naturally it takes years upon years to finally activate a rinnegan. So even with both Indura and Ashura chakra inside him, it would have taken several years for it to activate. Hags without any doubt gave sasuke the rinnegan.
Reminder of the Discussion Rules:
The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or questionable hyperbole.
The Rinnegan entry isn't consistent with the manga's information on how to awaken the Rinnegan.
It's never said that it takes years to awaken a Rinnegan, it's only stated that you need Indra and Ashura Chakra.
Provide evidence that it takes years.
We know Naruto awakened Six Paths Senjutsu since in order to make Truth Seeking Balls you need Six Paths Senjutsu:'''''Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha
The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!
Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin―Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Tota"!
Six Paths Senjutsu = 9 Bijuu Chakra. The points are obvious in the fact those who had Truth Seeking Balls were solely those who had the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu. Obito, Madara and Naruto. Sasuke never got Six Paths Senjutsu because he didn't have the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu and he never had Truth Seeking Balls.
Again false, toneri exists and he has no bijuu chakra inside him. Point disproved, Next
I don't think you realize you're being a hypocrite here. I provided main canon evidence that Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan naturally. Your supposed counter to my evidence was using the databook to disprove it.
Yet here you are countering my databook evidence using the main canon movie.
You can't cherry pick when you can or can't use the databook.
At least stay consistent with your argument. Either use the databook or not.
Also, an easy counter point to disprove your evidence of Toneri:
Why didn't Sasuke awaken Truth Seeking Balls if Toneri did?
Ashura and Indra were never given power from Hagoromo and Hagoromo admits this himself when talking about their history.'''''Indra was born with immense power and never worked with others, he achieved greater heights by working alone and being born special.
Ashura was born a dunce and couldn't really utilize his powers. However, per Hagoromo's own words, Ashura gains power by working with others and Indra was born with his powers:
"Elder brother Indra possessed strong ocular powers and senses from birth... he always did everything by himself, leaning only on his own strength and came to understand that his powers were different and special... On the other hand, nothing ever went well for little brother Ashura from the time he was small and he couldn't do anything all on his own. In order to attain the same power as his older brother he always needed the cooperation of others in addition to his own effort."
"While struggling through training, the power of bodily Chakra awakened within him and he attained power rivaling his brother's."
Nitpicking is hard with this one. Obviously both ashura and indura activated their power and became strong, no shit sherlock. Just like Hashirama and madara were the strongest of their time without any power up. Just like Naruto and Sasuke got stronger prior to meeting hags. Ashura also unlocked his potential and became stronger than his previous self. Naruto and Sasuke still got boost from Hags which made them stronger. Same with Ashura, hagoromo gave him the power. He litrally says that on screen, no amount of headcanon can outweight his own words.
Hagoromo never gave Ashura power, this is a misconception:
Hagoromo stated that Ashura and Indra ended up fighting due to what Hagoromo bequeathed to Ashura.
What led to them fighting was Hagoromo bequeathing unto Ashura the successor of their clan. That is why they ended up fighting, because Hagoromo entrusted Ashura the power over their clan and not Indra.
Literally before making this comment is when Hagoromo revealed that Ashura and Indra blossomed their own powers, nothing to do with Hagoromo, and it's because of how Ashura blossomed his own powers that Hagoromo named Ashura the successor.
Once again, Hagoromo never gave Ashura actual power.
Also, seals don't have visible Chakra. Immense Chakra does not take a physical form always, otherwise you mean to tell me that One-Tailed Naruto in Naruto Part 1 is superior to Adult Base Naruto.'''''Those reasonings are just misinformation.
Calling it a misinformation does not make it one. this is equivalent of "Nu-uh!"
You have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary, you don't have a basis until you give something for your stance.
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Its not always like that, or else Rasengan, Rasengan Shuriken, Bijuu Dama , literally every technique made of concentration of chakra will have flames patter
Your words hold little to no value at this point. Show me one instance from manga where byakugan "detected" chakra outside of human body and it was not physically visible.
Lmao see scan above, you can see concentration of chakra outside of their body, yet no visible chakra lmao, Chakra will only be visible like that if their users will try to physically extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
(1) Using lmao twice does not make your arguement sound better.
(2) Which scan are you talking about? The anime scan which is auto dismissed because anime is not source material?
Your words hold little to no value at this point. Show me one instance from manga where byakugan "detected" chakra outside of human body and it was not physically visible.
Lmao see scan above, you can see concentration of chakra outside of their body, yet no visible chakra lmao, Chakra will only be visible like that if their users will try to physically extract their chakra out from their body to perform jutsu lmao.
(1) Using lmao twice does not make your arguement sound better.
(2) Which scan are you talking about? The anime scan which is auto dismissed because anime is not source material?
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yeah, agreeing with imadethison8-1-2017 too
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It is quite obviously emphasis and shows up every time they want to highlight something that you should be looking at, as Pmimi have pointed out.
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