Naruto God Tiers Downgrade

[Xerkser500]

Reading through everything, I agree wholeheartedly with Tatahakai.

Disagreeing with the downgrade. For the previous argument I had and his.

 

[Xerkser500]

Also, no offense to others, but I highly recommend us to not count in the votes of people who just recently claim "agree with OP" and nothing more.

Tata made a very long constructed counter argument to the OP and is hardly being viewed upon as it is. He already made a point about votes needing to be reset because literally everyone who voted before him said "sure, agree with Imade" and left the thread and never came back to see if any rebuttals were made. That's the definition of only giving the OP support.

So unless new users who reply say something like "I've read both sides but I still find Imade more credible" when voting, users who only say "agree with OP" need to have their votes nulled so it doesnt look like people ignoring rebuttals to rush for a downgrade.

 

[Podonklos]

@Xerkser

I understand and sympathize with your concerns, but the way you're wording it makes it come across less as you being worried about people making ill-informed decisions and more as you just trying to get rid of decisions that aren't yours.

Speaking for myself, my comment was pretty much just "agree with OP", but I have read through the thread :/

Saying my vote should be nullified just because I or anyone else didn't make that more explicit isn't very democratic.

 

[Gun_Slave_Unit]

by that line of argument then all the vote can go both ways, the one that disagree with the proposed changes are as exempt to being null as much the one that agree. you said someone has countered the points made by the op, but have you taken into account that the op can still counter those points back. far as i'm reading/skimming the thread, it hasn't necessarily reach an actual conclusion yet.

that said, i'd wait for the op to come here again and give his input on the matter. currently somewhat neutral

 

[TataHakai]

@Xerkser
I understand and sympathize with your concerns, but the way you're wording it makes it come across less as you being worried about people making ill-informed decisions and more as you just trying to get rid of decisions that aren't yours.

Speaking for myself, my comment was pretty much just "agree with OP", but I have read through the thread :/

Saying my vote should be nullified just because I or anyone else didn't make that more explicit isn't very democratic.

I agree, i will take your word that you've read through the thread, thank you for taking your time to vote.

 

[AstralKing7]

HAs anyone actually read Tatas response tho???

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

Tata already pretty much solo'd the post. But to add few cents

• Momoshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Momoshiki had to absorb the Jutsu to get out of it and Shikamaru is 7-C with Shadows.

Making stuff on your own here. Momo shows no discomfort. He absorbed the technique because it is better to amp yourself rather than waste any effort to break through it. I mean, you can actually see he casually lifts his arm to absorb it lmao

• Momoshiki has to dodge an attack from Darui (who is 7-A at the moment).
• Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui. Darui is still 7-A.

This is nitpicking of highest degree. Try this with DBS and see the response

• Post-Kinshiki Absorption Momoshiki no-sells a sword swing from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke Adult Sasuke doesn't have a rating for him without Susano'o).

Its not post-absorption, that is base momo, its clearly visible. He transformed after tanking the attack

• An angered Fusion Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick (Darui is still 7-A).
• Angered Fusion Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara's sand, has to go around the sand to attack Gaara, yet Fusion Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well (Gaara is only 7-A).
• Fusion Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro (Chojuro has no profile, but he's probably 7-A from all the other Kage being 7-A).
• Fusion Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi (Kurotsuchi has no profile, but she's probably 7-A too from all the other Kage being 7-A).

Which are casual feats. I know you are trying to insinuate 7-A Fused momo, but lets not nitpick.

• Adult Base Naruto shifting to Six Paths immediately overwhelms Fusion Momoshiki and Fusion Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Naruto while being in visible pain (Adult Six Paths Naruto is 'Low 5-B' and it should be noted that this Naruto was weakened by Momoshiki earlier).

I dont see how you confirmed he was damaged, because all I see is naruto taking him by surprise and punching him. nothing indicating momo was hurt by it.

• Soon after, Sasuke sends Momoshiki flying back with a punch, although Fusion Momoshiki shows no pain nor surprise like with Naruto (Base Adult Sasuke still has no rating for him physically without Susano'o).

Refer to previous statement.

• Fusion Momoshiki's Lava Golem overpowers Six Paths Kurama (Six Paths Kurama is currently rated as Unknow)

Idk why so tbh, this should be fixed. But moving forward

• Lava Golem is easily defeated by Susano'o Clad Kurama (Sasuke's Susano'o is Low 5-B).

"Easily"

Okaaaaay

• [Weakened:] Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave Fusion Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke (They rate from Unknow to 7-A and no rating for Base Adult Sasuke physically).]
• [Weakened:] A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Fusion Momoshiki but it breaks Momoshiki's Jutsu as well (Boruto is 8-kB).

It does not do any of these things, you are again exaggerating to suit your case. Momo was caught by surprise, due to which when he was hit his body moved. He was not knocked out, he showed no visible pain. Shadow paralysis jutsu breaks if caster's attention is diverted, have you even read Naruto or just skimmed few last chapters to make this post?

• [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:] Kicks Rinnegan Sasuke away (Adult Sasuke doesn't have a rating without Susano'o).
• [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:]Stabbed by Boruto (Boruto is 8-B).
• [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:]Momoshiki has his Bijuudama overpowered and is killed by a Cho Odama Rasengan made by Base Naruto and Boruto (Base Naruto is rated as Unknow).

A very obvious point to note is this momo only restored his power from a ninja tool, which obviously does not have enough power to restore him back. So no he is not "potentially" in the same league as his normal fusion. And even if that was not the case, this would have been PIS


Oh and I disagree with this proposal if that is not obvious already

 

[Damage3245]

I've read through both sides and I also agree with the downgrades. (I noted this earlier in the thread but my vote was seemingly not counted).

 

[AstralKing7]

Oh yeah I forgot Momo has enough power where he can turn genin level attacks into 5B attacks that knocked Naruto out

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Xerkser
I understand and sympathize with your concerns, but the way you're wording it makes it come across less as you being worried about people making ill-informed decisions and more as you just trying to get rid of decisions that aren't yours.

Speaking for myself, my comment was pretty much just "agree with OP", but I have read through the thread :/

Saying my vote should be nullified just because I or anyone else didn't make that more explicit isn't very democratic.

This. So much this.

I've also noticed that this tends happen with these Naruto threads

Just because those who disagree are more vocal than those who support IMade's stance, doesn't mean they hold more weight.

 

[Xerkser500]

HAs anyone actually read Tatas response tho???

This is my literal point here. Because 9 times out of 10, new people who recently comment are not going to take the the time to read the entire thread and all arguments and will simply say "agree with OP" for just reading the OP unlike people like us who consistently participate in the thread. And those new users wont come back to see possible rebuttals, just as Tata pointed out before.

Of course, if you actually looked at both sides and still agree with downgrades, your vote is 100% relevant. But thats if you actually looked at both ends. My point was moreso towards votes that just say "agree with OP" and leave it at that. Because it then just looks like your agreeing to rush a downgrade regardless of the counter arguments.

 

[SinsofMan]

I still agree with the downgrades.

 

[AstralKing7]

THE point that was being made by those who disagreed is that Tata countered Imades point


When u guys say you still agree with him; do u mean u agree with his points about ignoring what was literally stated in the DB which was made by Kishi himself??? Tata showed where the DB proved Imade wrong

These are the reasons why people get asked twice did they seriously read through the thread

Also the reason why there is a long list of knowledgeable Naruto memberss.

We can't just lead with headcanon when we are getting proved wrong by the DB

 

[TataHakai]

Guys let's not derail the post, i have faith that even newcomers will read both sides before making up their minds and make their choices on which point they agree with.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I Still agree with the downgrade to Low 5-B as well. Also why were all the votes for I-Made removed as if there was no support prior?

 

[SinsofMan]

I am a big fan of compromise. So how about we vote for something else? I agree both Tata and IMade have made well done points. So I think the best course of action is for those affected is At Least Small Planet Level, Possibly Planet Level." If no one likes my compromise, I will still be with IMade. I think his points does seem to make more sense to me.

Nothing really gets 'changed', we can make a note for Naruto and Sasuke that scaling them to Kaguya and Hagoromo was discussed in (insert this thread here.)

 

[TataHakai]

Because again, those votes were made when no alternative counter argument was presented by me

Hell some people who VOTED for Imade now agree with me and disagree with him, if those people still agree with him then their votes will be counted as i said, the thread won't be over until everyone who previously voted has reconsidered their vote.

Anyways i will add your vote.

 

[Gun_Slave_Unit]

wondering about that as well. some retract their vote along the way but it seems not all of them did. who made the call about vote count reset around here?

 

[AstralKing7]

People had changed their votes when a good counter argument was presented

 

[TataHakai]

I did

If people choose to STILL agree with Imade then they can do so, but it's not up to us to decide whether they will change their minds or not, if they don't then Imade will get their vote.

This thread isn't ending until everyone who voted prior has voted agai

This means there's literally no difference, it's just easier to confirm their votes once again after counter arguments have been made.

 

[Rocker1189]

I am actually fine with the compromise but the possibly would be a likely for me, though either is fine.

 

[TataHakai]

Also can i just say that the idea of counting votes before the thread is concluded is stupid, why would votes even be counted before counter arguments can be made? that just sets everything in favour of the post maker since most people who vote early on will not return and read the counter arguments to have an opportunity to change their minds, yet their votes will be counted anyways.
The votes should only be counted when the thread is concluded, not whilst it's ongoing, it sets up an unfair advantage in the voting process.

I don't want to sound like i'm moaning but it just seems dumb to me, reading the entire thread and making your mind up after it's done is a better method of deciding if we're going by votes.

Also.

 

[SinsofMan]

Tata? How does the compromise sound to you? (Even though you argued for a solid 5-B) Likely/Possibly are sort of just placeholders atm, I am fine with either one.

 

[BlackeJan]

I heavily disagreed with the downgrade since I've said before that Hagoromo helped them out with the CT since u need both hands for it but he split his powers to Naruto/Sasuke that one each has the symbol for the CT

 

[TataHakai]

I disagree with it, i can see your point but i definitely believe Naruto and Sasuke received half the power from Hagoromo which grants them a solid 5-B status, i don't think the Naruto profiles need to be changed AP wise at all but thank you for the alternative.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Question...

Isn't it very much established that Naruto and Sasuke each got half of Hagamoro's power?

 

[SinsofMan]

Question...

Isn't it very much established that Naruto and Sasuke each got half of Hagamoro's power?

I suppose so? Every Databook and secondary canon does seem to support this premise. This is mostly a debate between Naruto Manga vs Naruto Manga and all other canon.

 

[Rocker1189]

Question...
Isn't it very much established that Naruto and Sasuke each got half of Hagamoro's power?

Exactly. which is my huge problem with this thread.

 

[TataHakai]

Question...
Isn't it very much established that Naruto and Sasuke each got half of Hagamoro's power?

Yes, literally stated dozens of times.

 

[AstralKing7]

Yeah but they also inherited other power from him which is Asura and Indras power. In other words Hags "Body" and "Mind/Eyes"

 

[BMWFanboy]

It is very clearly established, to think otherwise and go with the OP's headcanon is to ignore lore massively

 

[ZERO7772]

I agree with the OP here.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I agree with Imade on this regard, he tends to be knowledgeable when it comes to Naruto.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

THe Chakra given to them is mostly allocated to the hand with the seals which was used to perform the Jutsu, which can clearly be seen in the Kaguya scan above in the OP.

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

Question...
Isn't it very much established that Naruto and Sasuke each got half of Hagamoro's power?

Yes, Tata has posted stuff above but apparantly vote counting can overturn established lore in the series

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vote counting shouldn't go over factual evidence of the series. Personal headcanon and belief and a majority support coming from people who haven't read the series and probably went "TL;DR" on the OP shouldn't count.

The only thing which should count are the factual evidence and the arguments brought over by the people. Anyone can share the thread elsewhere on Discord or Hangouts or Facebook or Google+ (Well, could) groups and go "Hey gang gimme support!!!11"

Few people can actually argue their point.

 

[TataHakai]

The chakra allocated to them is the "power" that Hagoromo previously gave Ashura and neglected from Indra, unless we're going to sit here and say Ashura also got six paths chibaku tensei which makes no sense.

The power also stayed with them beyond the sealing and was never supposed to be solely for the sealing, it's literally the reason why Hagoromo asked them what they would do with their powers AFTER the war.

 

[Rocker1189]

It also makes no sense:

Hags: Okay guys Madara is nearly at my level of power and is trying to get my Mom's, so I've got an idea. I would give you some power but not enough to beat my Mom, just a seal. Deal with it somehow.

Then they still nearly lost to Kaguya and only won because Obito literally came back to life and gave Kakashi super Kamui hax.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Its been like 9 hours since Imade's last response, so presumably he went to sleep or something. Give him some time to post some counter-arguments. Its also not like everyone who agreed with the downgrades are unfamiliar with the series.

 

[Rocker1189]

THe Chakra given to them is mostly allocated to the hand with the seals which was used to perform the Jutsu, which can clearly be seen in the Kaguya scan above in the OP.

Completely wrong, yeah she could see the sun and moon seals, the amount of chakra in them is never stated.