Remember, we were only allowed 100 comments. My comment will be #92.
@TFO
As neither of us have access to the raws, I guess the point of the discussion is moot.
However, that doesn't deny the actual events that occur.
And the Lightning Style Arrow one shot Naruto's single clone which Naruto used a clone to avoid taking a direct hit.
A Karma Boruto one shot a Base Naruto clone, thus being more evidence that Base Naruto is not 5-B.
Since there are only 8 comments left, here was my last full comment towards you that you have yet to respond to.
Since there are only 8 comments left and I may wake up tomorrow to the limit having been reached, I will make a summation of my stance:
Sasuke is Not Physically 5-B as a Teenager With Rinne-Sharinga
The two scenes trying to justify Sasuke's proposed key are being thrown by Kaguya and interacting with Momoshiki/Kinshiki.
Sasuke Being Thrown by Kaguya Isn't a Feat:
In this scan, we see Sage of Six Paths Naruto and Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke being thrown by Kaguya's hair with both emmitting an audible groan of pain.
This is being used to justify Teenage Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke's durability is equal to Sage of Six Paths Naruto's 5-B Durability. I will retort with Kepekley23's own words as they are more concise than my own:
I'll reiterate Kep's words since he and I basically agree on this:
Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.
Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly,as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.
Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.
Sasuke Wasn't Hit By Limbo
The assumption that the positioning of Sasuke during the page in which he interacts with Limbo is proof he was physically hit by Limbo is fallacious.
Sasuke is shown with his blade raised over his shoulder and in the panel of impact the blade is brought down. It's foolproof evidence that he did complete the swing since it did come down. The idea that Sasuke didn't complete the swing, thus the blade didn't block the hit is asinine, we literally see the blade is down after the raised swing, so it was a complete swing.
Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out.
The anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.
Sasuke swung up and then brought it down to finish the swing. The Limbo hit the swing, not Sasuke.
If we were to invoke Occam's Razor, your position would be denied due to the assumptions you must take being higher than the stance of Sasuke making contact through the Blade.
Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out.
The anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.
Just like in the manga, Sasuke has the Chidori Blade raised over his right shoulder.(Manga for reference)
The moment of the clash between Sasuke's swung Chidori Blade and the Limbo. (Manga for reference)
Sasuke has the Chidori Blade hanging low on his right side after the clash. (Manga for reference)
There's no way this is a feat of Sasuke being hit, nothing implies that.
Limbo Not Being Injured By the Swing Is Not Counter-Evidence
It is true that Sasuke could cut through Six Paths Sage Madara, yet
the Limbo Sasuke would have hit is not injured.
However, Six Paths Sage Madara is not listed as 5-B in Durability:
At least Moon level, likely far higher (Was able to survive Naruto's Rasenshurike)
The Limbo that Sasuke interacted with was of
Six Paths Sage Madara (Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan) whose Durability is
Planet Level.
This is not my main rebuttal though. The Limbo are practically clones of Madara, this Madara has
Low-Mid Regenerationn.
Madara himself regenerated from this bifurcation by Sasuke.
The Limbo clone could have easily done so as well.
This isn't counter proof of the feat.
Sasuke wasn't hit by the Limbo physically, it was an interaction of the Limbo with Sasuke's Chidori.
Sasuke With the Kusanagi Blade Isn't 5-B Neither:
Althought not mentioned in the OP, the Kusanagi Blade that Sasuke uses is for some reason being incorrectly labeled as 5-B by those in support of this upgrade since it pierced a 5-B Madara and Adult Sage of Six Paths Naruto. There are several blatant issues with this:
1) The Kusanagi in the War Arc is not the same Kusanagi in Boruto.
They are different blades.
2) Sasuke doesn't physically pierce a 5-B Madara with the Kusanagi Blade.
Sasuke used Amenotejikara to switch places with his Kusanagi Blade and
Madara flew into it.
3) The Kusanagi Blade alone cannot be 5-B unless we now scale everyone that interacted with it to 5-B:
There are a lot more instances, but it's quite clear that the Kusanagi Blade is not 5-B, it would make absolutely no sense if it were, especially that somehow Sasuke had access to 5-B metals to make his blade in the late chapter 200's of Naruto.
Anyways, it does not matter since TheFinalOrder doesn't agree that the sword is 5-B neither:
TheFinalOrder wrote: The sword piercing Madara and Naruto is an outlier. Same sword, enhanced by Sasuke's chakra can't even cut through Raikage's V1 Chakra Cloak.
Sasuke Isn't 5-B From Base Momoshiki, Base Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki
Mainly because the scaling doesn't make sense as I'll explain in the next section, but for a quick recap of the OP's scaling:
Base Naruto is 5-B because Sasuke is 5-B. Sasuke is 5-B from Kaguya, Madara, Momoshiki and Kinshiki... but the OP is also claiming that Sasuke is 5-B from interacting with Base Naruto....and what is worse is the OP is claiming that Base Naruto is also 5-B from Fused Momoshiki... and that Fused Momoshiki is 5-B from Sasuke. I'll even copy paste his own words from the OP:
Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.
Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights
Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki
And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes
It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z is 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules.
The 10.4 Zettaton Calc Isn't Applicable to Sasuke Neither
The 10.4zt is not applicable to Base Sasuke nor his casual AP. We're talking about physical Base Sasuke in this thread. This calc result is Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke with a Jutsu that isn't anywhere near his regular arsenal, especially since the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was not made of Sasuke's own Chakra, it was made of Hagoromo's Chakra.
Hagoromo literally states that he gave away his Chakra which we know was to Naruto and Sasuke and
it was explicitly for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei Jutsu as Kaguya points out. Sasuke already used that Chakra up.
Not applicable.
Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki Aren't 5-B
This is pretty cut and dry, Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki literally have a huge majority of feats being below Tier 5. They have almost no 5-B feats.
Base Momoshiki's Feats Are All Pathetically Below 5-B:
So a completely Base Momoshiki has no actual solid 5-B feats. The only one for contention is kicking Adult Base Naruto; however, Adult Base Naruto being 5-B is what we are currently discussing, it can't be used as evidence for Momoshiki since Momoshiki is supposed to be evidence for Adult Base Naruto, otherwise that's even more circular scaling. So there is no feat for Base Momoshiki being 5-B and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for Base Momoshiki being Tier 7-A to possibly 6-C.
Base Kinshiki's Feats Are Almost All Pathetically Below 5-B
Base Kinshiki has an overwhelming amount of feats that are Tier 7-A, a severe amount as well. He has only one 5-B feat for AP and Durability while the rest are literally entirely 7-A feats. By definition, the singular 5-B feat would be an outlier, Kinshiki is consistently below that. Note: Kinshiki had a planet splitting statement from a Guidebook, but there are a couple issues with that:
1) The Guidebook is about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.
2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.
Fused Momoshiki is Kinda 5-B:
Fused Momoshiki is the only one who actually displays some 5-B feats, but not in all stats.
The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since
Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.
So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.
Kinshiki's Planet Splitting Statement Isn't Cano
1) The Guidebook is about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.
2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.
3) We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once in a non-canon guidebook and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being This Weak Is Not WIS/PIS/CIS
These are straight up anti-feats and the 5-B feats are straight up outliers. Here is the definition of outlier:
A person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.
Outliers can be a super high-end feat or an extremely low-end feat that is not consistent with the majority of a character's feat. The 5-B feat for Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki are an outlier, they are a singular feat that differs from the rest of their consistent majority feats.
WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Bourot.
PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.
CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being a Greater Threat Than Kaguya Isn't an AP Statement
There are two blatant reasons the statement isn't translatable to AP:
- We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
- Being a threat is not translatable to AP or Durability. I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.
For Some Reason OP is Stating that Sage of Six Paths Naruto is Not an AP Increase and Solely a "State of Mind"
Per OP's own words:
SPSM: There is a Misconception that SPSM is Massively Stronger than Base Naruto, when that is not the case as the proof shows us. SPSM Naruto is simply a Supernatural State of Mind that Hagoromko gifted Naruto in addition to SPC.
This is completely incorrect and baseless. I will now go back to the feat I said to remember earlier of Base Momoshiki and Base Naruto:
Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto.
This feat means Base Momoshiki's AP is around the level of Adult Base Naruto's Durability. For simplicity, let's say Base Momoshiki's AP = Adult Base Naruto's Durability.
OP is currently trying to say that Naruto's AP and Durability is the same in Base and with Sage of Six Paths Mode. What he doesn't realize is he is straight up contradicting himself with this.
Fusion Momoshiki trades blows with Adult Base Naruto,
outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle. This makes sense since Fusion Momoshiki is stronger than before when he fought Adult Base Naruto at his base... yet immediately after this panel
Adult Base Naruto shifts to Sage of Six Paths to immediately overwhelm Fusion Momoshiki.
Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Sage of Six Paths Naruto that sends him flying while being in visible pain.
If Naruto's AP and Durability is equal in Base and Sage of Six Paths Mode, it absolutely makes no sense for Naruto to have overpowered Fusion Momoshiki with Sage of Six Paths Mode, it is literal proof that Naruto's AP increases. Naruto literally sends Fusion Momoshiki flying with a simple kick and an elbow literally rock's his world. If Naruto's AP was always the same then he would have done the same when he crossed arms with Fusion Momoshiki since he literally overpowers Fusion Momoshiki so easily with Sage of Six Paths.
Also, the ratings listed for the SPSM Chakra Mode literally states it provides Offensive, Defensive and Supplementary boost per it's Databook page. That already disproves the OP's theory. Naruto being significantly physically stronger upon activating his Cloak proves it as well.
Naruto and Sasuke's Individual Performances Against Kaguya and Madara Disprove This As Well:
Madara:
Sasuke:
Naruto:
So in the fight with Madara, Naruto without Kurama was outperforming Sasuke with his perfect Susano'o. Not comparable, except in speed perhaps.
Kaguya:
Sasuke:
Naruto:
Not even close, Sasuke was pathetic against Kaguya and Naruto was the only one who tagged her, injured her and was keeping up with her speed wise. As we can see in both fights, Sasuke is using Rinne-Sharingan and Perfect Susano'o while Naruto is literally only using Sage of Six Paths Mode (no Kurama summoned once).
Kaguya with Chakra Punches was able to destroy Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o with 4 hits and with an unknown attack she one-shot it as well.
SPSM Naruto not only matches Kaguya's Chakra Punches, he overpowers her at one time even.
By feats, SPSM Naruto > Perfect Susano'o which is massively superior to Sasuke's physicals.
As the OP himself agrees to, Base Naruto and Sasuke are physically similar in AP and Durability. So SPSM Naruto is superior to his Base given he is superior to Perfect Susano'o which is superior to Sasuke's physicals.
The only way to claim SPSM Naruto is similar to Sasuke's physicals would be you claiming Sasuke is physically similar to his Susano'o which is entirely fallacious and downright incorrect.
Thus by feats, Naruto with Sage of Six Paths could also 1-4 shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o and Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is explicitly more durable than himself, it's literally armor over his person.
OP is trying to say Base Naruto is equal in AP and Durability to his Sage of Six Paths Mode though and that Sasuke scales to Sage of Six Paths Mode... when Sage of Six Paths Mode literally outperformed Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o in their fight against Kaguya.
This is honestly ignorance and fallacious extrapolation to upgrade a character, it makes literally no sense.
Naruto Didn't Need Kurama Against Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o
It is true that Naruto resolved to pulling out Kurama against Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o; however, this is proof that Naruto needs Kurama to combat Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.
Naruto was purposefully going easy on Sasuke. Even towards the end of their fight,
Naruto still admits he wishes to win fair and square against Sasuke,
but not the current Sasuke.
As shown through their fight with Kaguya,
Kaguya herself one shot and four shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o while
Naruto physically matched her and
overpowered her. SPSM Naruto is more than capable of one-shotting Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o armor.
The 7-A Rating is a Placeholder
I've only been saying 7-A because that is the current highest rated Kage that Momoshiki and Kinshiki fought (Gaara at 7-A since Naruto's Base is still currently tiered as Unknown. Darui's last key was 7-C while Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have no profiles). If we somehow prove Gaara to be above 7-A or do decide that Base Naruto is above 7-A and perhaps 6-B through his unapplied 6-B calc, then we could put Base Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, Kage Gaara, Kage Darui, Kage Chojuro and Kage Kurotsuchi at 6-B as well since they are consistent in fighting each other.
Using the Boruto Anime Over the Boruto Manga is Dishonest
On VS Wiki, we are allowed to use an anime adapation if we need to see how a feat played out for clarity, otherwise we are not allowed to use an anime over the canon source material. An anime is simply an adaption of the source material with added "filler" to pad out the episode to 21 minutes and turn a profit.
The Boruto anime is supporting canon, not the main canon. There is a difference between the two and it should be understand to avoid future confusions such as this one. The manga is the main canon with the anime being an adaption.
I also have yet to see this proof of Kodachi's interview, although Kodachi isn't the WoG of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto is. Kishimoto directly edits the Boruto manga himself.
Kepekley23 Disagrees With the Upgrade
I do not understand why those in favor of the upgrade keep citing Kep's agreement with the anime as "supporting canon" as proof that Kep agrees with the upgrade. Kep made it very clear he fully disagrees with this upgrade:
Kepekley23 wrote: That it might be secondary canon, due to Kodachi's interview. I massively agree with, like, 99% of what IMade said.
Kepekley23 wrote: I don't think we can treat Sasuke's sword as 5-B, actually. It has numerous upon numerous feats of not even slicing through 7-As or being blocked by them. So far I agree with IMade on everything relating to 5-B Base Naruto, I've already made all my arguments in the previous thread and this one as well.
Kepekley23 wrote: Literally never played both sides, at least not in what is relevant to this thread. I always completely agreed with Base Naruto not being 5-B, which is the whole point of the thread.
Kepekley23 wrote: And I don't think Base Momoshiki is 7-A, but I don't think using out of context or one off scans where the characters are shown getting stomped to argue 5-B is a good practice. I have literally always said and heavily reinforced this, why you're all acting like I'm "suddenly" "playing both sides", I have no idea.
So using Kep's words on the anime does not prove a point when Kep himself said that even with the anime in his opinion being supporting canon, he does not agree with the upgrade.
Striking =/= Durability in Naruto
Fiction doesn't abide by our real laws of physics. We have characters more durable than they are strong or stronger than they are durable.
For example, Might Guy with the Eighth Gate. He's listed as 5-C in AP while Unknown in durability since he is solely offense and no defense with the Eighth Gate.
The same for Perfect Susano'o, Perfect Susano'o users are Low 6-B in Striking while High 6-A in Durability.
This is Circular Scaling
Using the words of the OP in the previous thread:
Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.
Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights
Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki
And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes
These are TheFinalOrder's own words that are in the OP of his previous thread on this subject.
It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z iz 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules. He believes it to not be 5-B because:
- Base Naruto Scales from Sasuke
- Kinshiki scales from Sasuke
- Fused Momoshiki Scales from Sasuke and is Consistently portrayed as Physically Equal to SPSM Naruto.
- Sasuke is consistently portrayed as physically equal to SPSM Naruto in the Fight with Fused Momoshiki
However, he fails to realize this is circular scaling. The scaling begins with Naruto and Sasuke while ending with Naruto and Sasuke.
Conclusion
Base Naruto is not 5-B.
Sasuke is not physically 5-B.
Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki aren't 5-B.
Fusion Momoshiki is not 5-B in all stats, only in Durability and with the Lava Golem.
