My Little Pony FiM Revision Thread (Warning: Season 9 Spoilers)

[Firestorm808]

Apparently, MLPs moon acts as a much weaker sun for some reason.

 

[Firestorm808]

Grubber? Isn't he also foreign?

 

[Lightbuster30]

What? No, I'm talking about Tempest Shadow.

Look, none of this even matters in the end. If the Rings of Schorchero can overpower Celestia then they can overpower her (though I still doubt it). That makes them 4-C. None of this disproves anything I said about judging the artifacts by their individual feats/statements. Meaning a blanket statement from Neighsay doesn't apply to every artifact in existence.

 

[Firestorm808]

Neighsay's statement only applies to pony/unicorn artifacts, not all artifacts.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Like Neighsay said, it only applies to pony/unicorn artifacts, not all artifacts.

Um, no, it only applies to pony/uncorn artifacts that have the feats/statements putting them at that level of power.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ignoring Neighsay, we agree that the Alicorn Amulet is Tier 4 and the Rings are possibly/likely Tier 4.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Right, and the Alicorn Amulet scales to highest level unicorns. The only reason tier 4 is even considered for the Alicorn Amulet is because it grants the wielder power comparable to the "highest level unicorns". Just making that clear. The AA scales to highest level unicorns" not the other way around. Even with Neighsay's statement, the Alicorn Amulet wouldn't even be considered tier 4 without this scaling.

The level of tier 4 can range from strong enough to aid in raising the Sun but still lose magic in the process (which would put them below Starswirl signifigantly but still in the same league), or maybe maybe even on the level of Starlight. That's a big maybe mind you.

 

[Firestorm808]

We also need to downgrade Tempest's Bombs to Low 4-C.

 

[Lightbuster30]

We also need to downgrade Tempest's Bombs to Low 4-C.

Why? The bombs are only 4-C for breaking Cadence's shield. Which only happened because Tempest kicked it and she doesn't have any other non-outlier feats putting her on the level of even the weakest alicorn.

 

[Firestorm808]

Isn't Base Cadence Low 4-C?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yes, but it was agreed scaling Tempest to the other alicorns; even weaker ones like Twilight, was out of the question.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm talking about her bombs. Shouldn't they be Low 4-C, not 4-C?

 

[Firestorm808]

Her profile currently says:

Likely Star level with magical bombs (The bombs broke Princess Cadance's shields)

 

[Lightbuster30]

Short answer: Low 4-C under normal circumstances.

Long answer: They don't scale to either Low 4-C or 4-C.

If they exploded and the explosion broke the barrier, then they'd be Low 4-C becuase that is a feat for the bomb, but they only broke through the barrier and then exploded on Cadence's body.

See, the problem here is the bombs by themselves are just balls that explode and spew a petrifaction mist on the target. The bomb itself as an object didn't break the shield. Rather the kinetic energy propelling the bomb towards Candence broke the shield.

What does this mean? Well, it means the bomb's ability to break Cadence's shield is limited by how hard Tempest can kick it. As Tempest does not scale to the Alicorns and her contending with them is regarded as an outlier, it by proxy means the bombs being Low 4-C are also an outlier. The only reason they can affect tier 4s is because of hax not raw power.

 

[Firestorm808]

So we don't change it?

 

[Lightbuster30]

I think we should change it to whatever tier we give Tempest Shadow. But I guess Low 4-C is fine since they only broke Cadence's shields.

 

[Firestorm808]

OP Updated.

Okay, now with that settled, how should we handle Starswirl's Shield briefly holding back the PoS's attack.

 

[Lightbuster30]

They should not be that high. We equate their shields to their magic blasts, which we equate to their telekinesis. If Starswirl's magic is only Low 4-C in general, then it makes no sense for him to block High 4-C attacks. I'm tempted to call outlier since that would imply his beams are of similar power.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why do magical blasts scale to telekinesis? Also, it's possible, since Starswirl is s highly skilled unicorn, his shields are especially strong or something. Also, it's not like the shield was parituclarly effective. It only blocked one strike. Most shields when attacked by blasts from weaker or comparable opponents, don't even crack. So maybe Starswirl is just 4-C and that's why his shield was barely able to withstand one attack (hint, hint, Starswirl and Twilight and Starlight and Cadance and Tirek and Chrysalis are totally 4-C, and they never should've been downgraded, cough, cough).

 

[Lightbuster30]

Telekinesis is powered by magic energy (and is actually a field of magical energy). It was reasoned that this same energy can be used to attack with in bolts and lasers. I'll respond to the rest later.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Let me re-phrase that (bear with me cause this is long-ish): In essence: The energy that powers their telekinesis is the exact same energy they use to power their spells. This energy is known as magic. Telekinesis blatantly grows stronger with stronger magic as evidenced by Starswirl needing help to TK the Sun while Celestia has such powerful magic she can move it with ease. If the energy powering their telekinesis is the exact same energy used to make laser blasts, then they should logically be able to put the same amount of energy into a laser or shield as there is no difference in the energy used except for application of it. Them having tier 4 magic inside them, yet not being able to use it except for one specific thing is honestly ludicrous.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Let me re-phrase that (bear with me cause this is long-ish): In essence: The energy that powers their telekinesis is the exact same energy they use to power their spells. This energy is known as magic. Telekinesis blatantly grows stronger with stronger magic as evidenced by Starswirl needing help to TK the Sun while Celestia has such powerful magic she can move it with ease. If the energy powering their telekinesis is the exact same energy used to make laser blasts, then they should logically be able to put the same amount of energy into a laser or shield as there is no difference in the energy used except for application of it. Them having tier 4 magic inside them, yet not being able to use it except for one specific thing is honestly ludicrous.

That's not the same. Telekinesis is lifting strength, while blasts is offensive and shields are defensive. They're all different fundamentally, even if they come from the same source. Humans are all powered by their body, yet their strength, durability, and lifting strength are all different. I just don't feel like they can be called the exact same. Also, all the time in fiction, characters have specific abilities at a higher level than they normally are.

 

[Lightbuster30]

That's a false equivalency. We are explicitly shown that the more powerful your magic is the more powerful your telekinesis is. The strength of their telekinesis is entirely dependent on their magical strength as a whole as are every other spell they have.

And to my knowledge, humans are powered mostly by neuro-electric energy commanding their muscles and organs. But again, it's a false equivalency to comapare it to magic.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh, and Twilight's shields tanked getting slammed by Tirek with TK into a mountain and he has the exact same, if not stronger TK than Celestia. So, my assumption is not off the mark.

 

[Lightbuster30]

"Also, all the time in fiction, characters have specific abilities at a higher level than they normally are."

As I've said before: Telekinesis is literally a field of magical energy enveloping the target. For this reason, and for reasons above, this is another false equivalency. There's nothing special about it. What applies to one fiction does not to another.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh, and Twilight's shields tanked getting slammed by Tirek with TK into a mountain and he has the exact same, if not stronger TK than Celestia. So, my assumption is not off the mark.

Yeah, but the telekinesis wasn't what Tirek was trying to use to hurt her, it was the fact that she was thrown at high speed at rock.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Thats not going to change that shes still going to get hit with the same amount of power as the tk. The power and energy slamming her into the mountain isn't going to just dissapear, and it has to go somewhere. She's not getting hurt by being slammed into a rock, it's the power of the TK slamming her thats going to hurt. What Tirek intended to use to hurt her with is irrelevant.

 

[Js250476]

You know how KI works in Dragon Ball?

It's literally the same case here except it's magic.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't think we're talking about attack potency here.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's a false equivalency. We are explicitly shown that the more powerful your magic is the more powerful your telekinesis is. The strength of their telekinesis is entirely dependent on their magical strength as a whole as are every other spell they have.
And to my knowledge, humans are powered mostly by neuro-electric energy commanding their muscles and organs. But again, it's a false equivalency to comapare it to magic.

I have a lot of things I want to say about this, but I'm not sure about some things, and anyways, it's not really relevant. The fact is that magical shields have generally been shown as being able to withstand more damage than that character can output.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Tirek slamming into Twilight reduced the shield in size, so I find that doubtful. No shield in MLP has ever been overhwelmingly powerful compared to their output.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

"Also, all the time in fiction, characters have specific abilities at a higher level than they normally are."
As I've said before: Telekinesis is literally a field of magical energy enveloping the target. For this reason, and for reasons above, this is another false equivalency. There's nothing special about it. What applies to one fiction does not to another.

Actually nevermind, I do have something to say about it: I feel like it's not all completely magic based. There could be some physical strain involved, as Twilight sweated from lifting the Ursa Minor. I guess there are a lot of convoluted arguments you could use for or against this point and telekinesis not being the same as AP and durability in general, but I just think from all the evidence we have, equating lifting strength to AP or durability completely is a slight logical leap.

 

[Firestorm808]

The most basic forces are a push and a pull. Telekinesis and Energy shields both work by pushing back against an opposing force such as the weight of an object or the force of another's attack. The same can be said about the push of a magic attack.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Thats not going to change that shes still going to get hit with the same amount of power as the tk. The power and energy slamming her into the mountain isn't going to just dissapear, and it has to go somewhere. She's not getting hurt by being slammed into a rock, it's the power of the TK slamming her thats going to hurt. What Tirek intended to use to hurt her with is irrelevant.

What? How does that work? I was slightly following your logic until here. How does being lifted hurt someone? Also, it didn't slam her into the mountain. He used it to throw her, then released his magic. You'd see it if you looked closely.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I don't think we're talking about attack potency here.

What is this a response to?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The most basic forces are a push and a pull. Telekinesis and Energy shields both work by pushing back against an opposing force such as the weight of an object or the force of another's attack. The same can be said about the push of a magic attack.

That's not all it comes down to. That's why they're called the basic forces. An attack's power isn't just about how strong of a push there is, there's also things like heat to take into consideration.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Last response, then I'm off to bed. Twilight sweating is not because she's using something other than magic to power her telekinesis. She sweating because she is using so much magic. Overworking your magic can physically affect your health in MLP. Overworking it has caused anything from exhaustion to even outright aging. Horse Play even notes Starswirls exhaustion from constantly moving the Sun. Physical affects on the body like sweating are again, the result of overworking your magic, not some additional force put into the spell.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Last response, then I'm off to bed. Twilight sweating is not because she's using something other than magic to power her telekinesis. She sweating because she is using so much magic. Overworking your magic can physically affect your health in MLP. Overworking it has caused anything from exhaustion to even outright aging. Horse Play even notes Starswirls exhaustion from constantly moving the Sun. Physical affects on the body like sweating are again, the result of overworking your magic, not some additional force put into the spell.

That's one argument I expected, and can't really argue against. But like I said, it's sort of irrelevant because of the other things I said.

 

[Firestorm808]

Standard Durability is how much a character can take without protection; therefore, putting up a shield should be a higher durability than standard.

 

[Firestorm808]

We applied the same logic for Danny Phantom Durability saying: At least Multi-City Block level+, Small Country level+ with Forcefield (His forcefields can withstand attacks from Vortex)