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My Little Pony FiM Revision Thread (Warning: Season 9 Spoilers)

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"What? How does that work? I was slightly following your logic until here. How does being lifted hurt someone? Also, it didn't slam her into the mountain. He used it to throw her, then released his magic. You'd see it if you looked closely. "

It's not being lifted thats hurting Twilight. Tirek's telekinesis is 4-C correct? Therefore when he uses his telekinesis on someone or something, he should be able to exert 4-C amounts of force when he throws or holds them down or throws them yes? Do you honestly think that force is going to just dissapear? When he throws you, his telekinesis has already exerted its 4-C force to throw you. A force must be exerted to throw her, and since Twilight is pretty clearly a powerhouse in this state, being thrown with normal amounts of force won't do jack. We can assume Tirek was using all the force he could telekinetically muster to throw her, and there's no logical reason for him to hold back, so we can say she was being launched by 4-C force. That force is still there because force and energy (kinetically speaking) doesn't randomly dissapear. Apologies if I can't explain this first part better, I'm not good with words.

Also, that fact that he couldn't just hold her down the way he did literally everyone else suggests Twilight is too powerful to be held down by his telekinesis. He did briefly in their fight, but the fact that he chose to throw her when it's in character to just succ (in these exact circumstances no less) tells me he couldn't do it for long, and that means Twilight's strength is  Tirek's telekinesis.
 
And don't try arguing "Oh, well Tirek was in a fight that time." because that's stupid. Tirek's goal was not to have a fight, his goal was stealing the alicorn magic from Twilight. The only reason he was in a fight was because he wasn't strong enough to hold her down and force steal her magic like he did everyone else. If he could do that, then he wouldn't even be fighting with her. Almost every single time he uses his telekinesis it's been for the purpose of holding down his targets so he could drain them easier. Yet when given a prime opportunity to hold her down with his telekinesis and drain her, he opts to throw her with it instead.

TL;DR: Saying he only didn't try because he was in a fight goes against his characterization, motivation and the entire reason he was fighting instead of draining to begin with.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
"What? How does that work? I was slightly following your logic until here. How does being lifted hurt someone? Also, it didn't slam her into the mountain. He used it to throw her, then released his magic. You'd see it if you looked closely. "
It's not being lifted thats hurting Twilight. Tirek's telekinesis is 4-C correct? Therefore when he uses his telekinesis on someone or something, he should be able to exert 4-C amounts of force when he throws or holds them down or throws them yes? Do you honestly think that force is going to just dissapear? When he throws you, his telekinesis has already exerted its 4-C force to throw you. A force must be exerted to throw her, and since Twilight is pretty clearly a powerhouse in this state, being thrown with normal amounts of force won't do jack. We can assume Tirek was using all the force he could telekinetically muster to throw her, and there's no logical reason for him to hold back, so we can say she was being launched by 4-C force. That force is still there because force and energy (kinetically speaking) doesn't randomly dissapear. Apologies if I can't explain this first part better, I'm not good with words.

Also, that fact that he couldn't just hold her down the way he did literally everyone else suggests Twilight is too powerful to be held down by his telekinesis. He did briefly in their fight, but the fact that he chose to throw her when it's in character to just succ (in these exact circumstances no less) tells me he couldn't do it for long, and that means Twilight's strength is  Tirek's telekinesis.
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Um, no. It can lift things up to stellar in weight, but that's all it is. It pulls someone from the ground. A force has to be exerted to throw her, yes, but it wasn't exactly a push. I feel like it's similar to Shinra Tensei, or Almghty Push. You're pushed away, and you can't control your own movements, but the actual pushing doesn't hurt. It's what you hit. There's no evidence anywhere in the show to suggest that being held in place or just being thrown hurts you. No, she wasn't thrown with 4-C force, she was thrown at Relativistic+ speed or however fast she was thrown.

He didn't suck because he couldn't due to Twilight being comparable and unwilling, so he just tried to hurt her instead. Maybe he thought she would teleport. That's not strength.
 
Ok, if it can lift an object stellar in weight, then it can exert that much force in general. It doesn't suddenly lose the ability to exert and throw with that much force just because the object isn't stellar in scale.

Thats nitpicking and doesn't change my point. You can't prove he took that into consideration. I on the other hand can provide evidence he simply couldn't hold her down based on what happened in the episode.
 
As I've said before, telekinesis scales from magical strength, not the other way around. You'd have a point if telekinesis was just something influenced by skill or had some external factor independent of magical strength powering it's lifting/throwing limits but it doesn't. Instead it:

A: Has been shown to get stronger as your magic gets stronger. As evidenced with Starswirl being unable to lift the sun and moon, while Celestia can with a small amount of hers.

B: Is a field of magical energy that holds the target in the air. This further reinforces the idea of telekinesis being influenced by magical strength since it's nothing but magic energy.

C: It is not a logical leap to equate lifting strength. Exactly what do you think makes their lifting strength so strong in the first place? The lifting strength by itself is not 4-C, the energy powering it is, otherwise any fodder unicorn could raise the sun and moon, but no, instead you need to have strong magic for that. Twilight even says she doesn't have the sisters magic in the movie, and considering a small portion of their magic can do what Twilight can't, she's almost positively talking in terms of strength.

She doesn't say: "I don't have your telekinesis." just "I don't have your magic." Which yet again reinforces my arguments that telekinesis is influenced heavily by magic strength.

Look, I'm not gonna say that the arguments for their strength are flawless, but you treating it like a "slight logical leap" is unfair.
 
No real agreement in regards to the shields, we just got sidetracked. Anyways, I call outlier, and shields in MLP can be damaged by equals. Evidence? Lord Tirek body slamming Twilight's shield to the point where it shrunk in size implying Tirek > The shield (again, he and Twilight are equals).
 
What's your take on my earlier message?

Standard Durability is how much a character can take without protection; therefore, putting up a shield should be a higher durability than standard.

We applied the same logic for Danny Phantom Durability saying: At least Multi-City Block level+, Small Country level+ with Forcefield (His forcefields can withstand attacks from Vortex)
 
If other series have forcefields well above the characters standard output, then thats a + for them. I've never seen a forcefield in MLP tank or even at least survive something far beyond the league of it's caster Starswirl is the only one off the top of my head.
 
Ok, I would respond to the rest, but I just have one question. How can telekinesis by itself possibly hurt someone? It's literally just keeping someone in a certain position.

Also as for the shield thing, Tirek didn't shrink it, it was just the angle that made it look that way. And even if it did shrink, it obiously wasn't a full shield, as it was just a faint glow. An actual barrier would probably be stronger than an aura.
 
I'm not saying that telekinesis by itself can hurt someone. My argument was being thrown with it is going to hurt. I've argued that if Tirek scales to people who can move stellar objects, then his telekinesis can exert that much force when he throws something not holding it in the air. Them throwing the sun shows he can generate tier 4 force and energy. If he's throwing with tier 4 force then when Twilight hits something that force is going to transfer into her. Also, telekinesis can be used for kinetic energy as well as force.

We clearly see that Twilight's shield was bigger than her own body, a lot bigger. When Tirek body slams her through a mountain we see the shield has shrunk to the point where it outlines the edges of her body and already disappearing. There's no camaera angle magic here.
 
To respond to something else said earlier: No. It's on you to prove there is something else involved in telekinesis or shields. If you want to argue for external factors like heat or otherwise then you have to prove it, otherwise we assume push and pull and nothing else, because there's no logical reason to assume there are other forces at work.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
I'm not saying that telekinesis by itself can hurt someone. My argument was being thrown with it is going to hurt. I've argued that if Tirek scales to people who can move stellar objects, then his telekinesis can exert that much force when he throws something not holding it in the air. Them throwing the sun shows he can generate tier 4 force and energy. If he's throwing with tier 4 force then when Twilight hits something that force is going to transfer into her. Also, telekinesis can be used for kinetic energy as well as force.
We clearly see that Twilight's shield was bigger than her own body, a lot bigger. When Tirek body slams her through a mountain we see the shield has shrunk to the point where it outlines the edges of her body and already disappearing. There's no camaera angle magic here.
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That's basically what I was thinking.

I still don't think it was intentionally smaller to how that Tirek broke it. I'm pretty sure she just releasd the spell after she was hit.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
To respond to something else said earlier: No. It's on you to prove there is something else involved in telekinesis or shields. If you want to argue for external factors like heat or otherwise then you have to prove it, otherwise we assume push and pull and nothing else, because there's no logical reason to assume there are other forces at work.
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What exactly are you responding to?
 
GokuSparkle said:
Firestorm808 said:
The most basic forces are a push and a pull. Telekinesis and Energy shields both work by pushing back against an opposing force such as the weight of an object or the force of another's attack. The same can be said about the push of a magic attack.
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That's not all it comes down to. That's why they're called the basic forces. An attack's power isn't just about how strong of a push there is, there's also things like heat to take into consideration.
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This is a conversation you had with Firestorm. He aid the most basic forces were push and pull and you refuted that there could be other forces at work such as heat. I attempted to refute this by claiming that additional factors such as heat, need to be proven as there sheilds and telekinesis do not display either of these things and thus there is no reason to assume they are involved.

In regards to your other comment: She certainly released the spell, that's for sure. However, upon releasing the spell it merely dissapeared into nothing, it didn't shrink as a result of being turned off, and there's certainly nothing implying she began releasing it as Tirek was plowing her through a mountain. And there's certainly nothing implying the shield would shrink from being released. Seriously, why would she do that and make the spell weaker as she's being attacked, thus risking injury? It makes more sense to assume Tirek's charge simply damaged the shield and then Twilight released it.
 
To further explain my second paragraph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoowtoEle14&feature=youtu.be&t=113 If you pay attention to Twilight before Tirek hits her (the scene where they plow through a mountain) we can clearly see Twilight's aura shield off the side of the mountain. When they emerge from the other side, Twilight's aura is gone (gone in the sense that it is too small to be seen as it is now wrapped tightly around Twilight's body). This means that if Twilight began lowering her shield, she'd have to do it as she's being plowed through a mountai which would obviously weaken her shield and put her at risk of injury since she was still being attacked. Again, Tirek damaging the shield to the point of shrinking it makes more sense based on this observation.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
This is a conversation you had with Firestorm. He aid the most basic forces were push and pull and you refuted that there could be other forces at work such as heat. I attempted to refute this by claiming that additional factors such as heat, need to be proven as there sheilds and telekinesis do not display either of these things and thus there is no reason to assume they are involved.

In regards to your other comment: She certainly released the spell, that's for sure. However, upon releasing the spell it merely dissapeared into nothing, it didn't shrink as a result of being turned off, and there's certainly nothing implying she began releasing it as Tirek was plowing her through a mountain. And there's certainly nothing implying the shield would shrink from being released. Seriously, why would she do that and make the spell weaker as she's being attacked, thus risking injury? It makes more sense to assume Tirek's charge simply damaged the shield and then Twilight released it.
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For shields and telekinesis, sure, they just push against force, but it's very hard to deny that literal laser beams don't attack at least partially with extreme heat.

Maybe it was an unfocused shield before and she made the shield denser by packing it tightly around her.
 
Lasers in MLP usually just blast the target to pieces or dust. I can't think of any instances of vaporization (which would imply heat), which is something that can be done if you hit with a high enough power difference anyways.

That would be pointless as she already got hit, the force has already transfered from Tirek to Twilight. Also, there's no way for you to prove this. This is speculation at best. Occam's Razor is in favor of my argument.
 
Should Twilight get the Staff od Sacanas as optional equipment? She showed in Spring Breakdown she can summon it whenever she wants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSiVcf7I2Nw&list=PLLBTzjTXe_WyH2fJYlJYueGXo06X5u2jj&index=35&t=44

Celestia put an enchantment on the elements so not even Discord could take them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldnqW80Ltss&t=2m18s

The girls also used the Elements to Summon Discord https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umk1MEYyqvA&t=20

And resistance to Mind manip with Elements considering they used them to break Sombra's Mind control and it made Twilight resist the sirens in EQG.
 
Pending.

What ability would that be?

If the Elements summon Discord through a normal spell is that inherent summoning or just using magic?

They already have Resistance to Mind Manip.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Pending.
What ability would that be?

If the Elements summon Discord through a normal spell is that inherent summoning or just using magic?

They already have Resistance to Mind Manip.
Click to expand...
Summoning

A spell powered by the EoH. So, either a mix of both or the latter.

Yeah, but Sombra's mind manipulation is obviously way stronger, so they'd get a stronger resistance.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
Lasers in MLP usually just blast the target to pieces or dust. I can't think of any instances of vaporization (which would imply heat), which is something that can be done if you hit with a high enough power difference anyways.

That would be pointless as she already got hit, the force has already transfered from Tirek to Twilight. Also, there's no way for you to prove this. This is speculation at best. Occam's Razor is in favor of my argument.
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Well there was that time when Sombra was vaporized.

That's true, I suppose I can't prove my case. But anyways, this whole argument about Tirek slamming was to debate whether or not shields are stronger than comparable characters right? But that was clearly not a focused, highly powered shield. It was just an aura. It's clearly different from conventional shields. Especially since shields in mlp have never been affected before by one attack from a comparable character.
 
Debatable. He could've been banished back to the Aether like last time. Whatever the heck that place is. Considering how near nonexistent vaporization is with magical attacks, it's probably a safe assumption that heat is not the main source of damage, and little more than a mere side affect.

We don't know how effective it is compared to her other shields. It's not "clearly" anything. She clearly saw fit to use it over her standard shields, which would've offered much better protection under your assumptions. There's no reason to assume it is less effective.
 
I'm pretty sure banished to the aether is just a kids show way of saying died. And like you said, it's debatable.

Maybe she couldn't do that kind of shield in the air. And we've seen before that shields can't be broken by comparable characters. Starlight's blasts never hurt any of Twilight's magical shields, and vise versa. And that explains very well why Starswirl's shields could hold back the PoS's blast.
 
That doesn't really refute my point. He was banished, not killed.

Twilight put up a bubble shield in the air when Starlight exploded her library, so they can definitely do aerial shields. Ok, no shield has ever defended from blasts far more powerful than the caster. It took Twilight and Starlight working together to overcome a weakened version of his blasts, then all of a sudden Starswirl comes in and blocks two shots with the same shield? From a PoS strong enough that he needed two sets of EoH to overpower him and free Stygian? That sounds like a crazy outlier for shields. No shield has ever defended that well.
 
I'm saying he was killed, but the show just didn't want to say that. How can you say having the pieces of your body being shattered isn't killing, or having your body atomized.

Sure, but that example proves my point. Starlight basically did a huge explosion of power which did nothing to Twilight's shield. I feel like the Tirek example is the outlier in this situation. Also, like I said, AP and shield durability are different. Also, what do you mean the same shield?
 
Inverse square law is in effect here. If Twilight was at the epicenter of the explosion and her shield tanked it, you'd have a point, but she was halfway across the library from it. I mean the same shield what else? The same shield blocked two hits from the PoS before going down.
 
I'd also like to point out that Sombra absolutely shattered Twilight's shield and nearly knocked her over with a casual blast. He also broke her second shield too and pushed her back, though not as much. We aren't going to argue that Sombra is stronger than the PoS now are we? Because he destroyed the shield of someone comparable to Starswirl, while the PoS needed two bloodlusted shots. And if we still feel like arguing Twilight is comparable to Sombra, then this only makes the argument that shields are massively above lasers look worse.

And Twilight, while not able to break Tirek's shield, was able to shove him backwards with her beam, showing the shield wasn't completely foolproof. and that is more than what happens normally.
 
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