XSOULOFCINDERX
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Exactly! It's really not that difficult to comprehend.
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Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"
- Thread starter Twellas
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Oh, also, in regards to Ocelot knowing that Venom wasnt Big Boss and that somehow ******* with scaling.
Kaz didnt. And kaz was adamant that the SKULLs were a huge get the **** out of there now thing.
He very explicitly thought The Skulls were a huge threat to Venom, to the point every time Venom defeats them he's awestruck, at some points he voices his concern that Venom needs to get the **** out of there now because he doubts he could win.
Why's this matter? Because for the majority of the game, Kaz didnt know Venom wasnt Big Boss. When Kaz said all those things, he was saying it to Big Boss in his mind, what's that mean? It means that Kaz thought Big Boss would have extreme trouble defeating the skulls and was in danger. And yet Venom managed to defeat them all, in some cases in some extreme CQC.
If Kaz thinks the Skulls are a threat to Big Boss, and Venom could defeat them, that alone should be enough to say that, even while Venom is weaker than Big Boss and Solid, he's still strong enough to at least contend with Big Boss level opponents, such as The SKULL unit. The only way this wouldnt work is if Kaz somehow didnt know how strong Big Boss was, but that's such a ridiculous assumption, that I'm going to say plain as day that it's factually wrong, Kaz knows how strong Big Boss is more or less.
Kaz didnt. And kaz was adamant that the SKULLs were a huge get the **** out of there now thing.
He very explicitly thought The Skulls were a huge threat to Venom, to the point every time Venom defeats them he's awestruck, at some points he voices his concern that Venom needs to get the **** out of there now because he doubts he could win.
Why's this matter? Because for the majority of the game, Kaz didnt know Venom wasnt Big Boss. When Kaz said all those things, he was saying it to Big Boss in his mind, what's that mean? It means that Kaz thought Big Boss would have extreme trouble defeating the skulls and was in danger. And yet Venom managed to defeat them all, in some cases in some extreme CQC.
If Kaz thinks the Skulls are a threat to Big Boss, and Venom could defeat them, that alone should be enough to say that, even while Venom is weaker than Big Boss and Solid, he's still strong enough to at least contend with Big Boss level opponents, such as The SKULL unit. The only way this wouldnt work is if Kaz somehow didnt know how strong Big Boss was, but that's such a ridiculous assumption, that I'm going to say plain as day that it's factually wrong, Kaz knows how strong Big Boss is more or less.
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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He can also do that shit to the SKULLs that can amp their Durability with the Rock Armor Shit.
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For those who wants to know what Venom Snake is capable against the Skull Unit.
I pretty sure that robotic arm is helping him alot, hmm i can see two skill feats for him:
1- Venom snake can fight equally or better against the Skulls without even knowing how they fight (so he can adapt and create a counter really fast).
2- Venom Snake without training or experience knows how to use is robotic arm to his advantage and to is fullest even against the skulls.
Since Venom is going to lose his 8-B key, what tier he gets ? 9-A to 8-C ?
I pretty sure that robotic arm is helping him alot, hmm i can see two skill feats for him:
1- Venom snake can fight equally or better against the Skulls without even knowing how they fight (so he can adapt and create a counter really fast).
2- Venom Snake without training or experience knows how to use is robotic arm to his advantage and to is fullest even against the skulls.
Since Venom is going to lose his 8-B key, what tier he gets ? 9-A to 8-C ?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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He isn't losing his 8-B Rating.
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>I pretty sure that robotic arm is helping him alot
Except he can smash his blade through them with his normal hand too, and takes attacks from them. And he can outright overwhelm and defeat Quiet, who's also a SKULL in direct 1v1 cqc, casually at that. Having a robot arm aint helping him take hits from Skulls or physically defeat them in hand to hand casually, he can even sweep them over and knock them back, even to SKULLs covered in Archea.
The second animation alone in the linked video has him kicking one in the gut which has the skull fall to his knees which allows him to further stab the blade into them, and that's only the second one, among the numerous others that has him doing some fancy direct scaling moves and tech. (At one point he even breaks one of their arms while taking the blade out).
Except he can smash his blade through them with his normal hand too, and takes attacks from them. And he can outright overwhelm and defeat Quiet, who's also a SKULL in direct 1v1 cqc, casually at that. Having a robot arm aint helping him take hits from Skulls or physically defeat them in hand to hand casually, he can even sweep them over and knock them back, even to SKULLs covered in Archea.
The second animation alone in the linked video has him kicking one in the gut which has the skull fall to his knees which allows him to further stab the blade into them, and that's only the second one, among the numerous others that has him doing some fancy direct scaling moves and tech. (At one point he even breaks one of their arms while taking the blade out).
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I mean, the justification for 8-B AP is wrong (i should have made clear i meant for the justification).
Hmm arguing the arm is making the disarms way easier, majority of the disarms (i believe one or two disarms happens with normal hand) happens with him stopping the machete or by grapping the arm or wrist all by the mechanic arm and sometimes disarming by twisting the robotic wrist, i not denying he can hurt physically the skulls, i just arguing he is having easier time because of the arm (still a skill feat noneless like i said above). Anyway i just wanted to point out some two skill feats.
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>Hmm arguing the arm is making the disarms way easier, majority of the disarms (i believe one or two disarms happens with normal hand) happens with him stopping the machete or by grapping the arm or wrist all by the mechanic arm and sometimes disarming by twisting the robotic wrist, i not denying he can hurt physically the skulls, i just arguing he is having easier time because of the arm (still a skill feat noneless like i said above). Anyway i just wanted to point out some two skill feats.
Some disarms, not all disarms involve the arm, there's like two dozen, when like half are just him grabbing it and smashing it through them then that's that. And the robot arm doesnt give him increased strength, that's still all him, the only thing it would really do is maybe make that arm in particular more durable, but as far as strength goes, that's all him. And if he can physically hurt the skulls then this conversation is completely moot and doesnt do anything.
>Venom actually kicked the skull knee, knees cant really move horizontally, making easier to someone fall into his knees and broke the skull's elbow with the robotic arm
What? Venom kicks out their knees (even while covered in Archea), he also does things like shatter their arms, stab them with blades and then physically takes said blade and rips it upward through their body nearly bisecting them, he also des things like kicking them in the gut hard enough they proceed to fall over in pain. Venom scales to the SKULLS directly arm or not, the arm can help in a few cases but in some cases it's completely irrelevant. Plus we see him physically outmatch Quiet in a cinematic.
Some disarms, not all disarms involve the arm, there's like two dozen, when like half are just him grabbing it and smashing it through them then that's that. And the robot arm doesnt give him increased strength, that's still all him, the only thing it would really do is maybe make that arm in particular more durable, but as far as strength goes, that's all him. And if he can physically hurt the skulls then this conversation is completely moot and doesnt do anything.
What? Venom kicks out their knees (even while covered in Archea), he also does things like shatter their arms, stab them with blades and then physically takes said blade and rips it upward through their body nearly bisecting them, he also des things like kicking them in the gut hard enough they proceed to fall over in pain. Venom scales to the SKULLS directly arm or not, the arm can help in a few cases but in some cases it's completely irrelevant. Plus we see him physically outmatch Quiet in a cinematic.
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You could just like, pick a singular topic and reply to that. Instead of replying to like three dozen things. That way we can actually solve the issues at hand faster and in a more cohesive manner.
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>esp
I'm saying it again. Soliton isnt ESP. You're heavily misinterpreting the page for it and saying because it has a similar effect it's ESP. Ill ******* go make a thread right now to have the page get updated and specified further if I must but I'm hoping I dont have to explain further why emp pulses and satellite resonance and sonar isnt a supernatural psychic or spiritual perception, which is literally what ESP is. ESP is completely fine for other reasons, both Big Boss and Solid have it for being able to see ghosts and souls, like on 5 different occasions, but it sure as hell aint because of Soliton. I'm not compromising on this, literally a blatant lie to say it is. Having a similar function doesnt mean it's the same, especially when it sensing life and matter signatures isnt the same as what the page means (life as in like ki sensing from DBZ not biological chemical reactions like heartbeats) and matter signatures as well, given Soliton does it by literally just using sonar and waves that bounce off objects to create a pseudo 3D map via ricochet and satellite, it's tantamount to saying echolocation is ESP. Similar effect=/=Same ability. We arent listing it as such unless you can give an actual reason why it would be, none of which you've given would count. The closest reason given was given by me, that being it can sense ghosts, though that's because ghosts in MGS have EM fields that the radar picks up on.
Move onto the next topic, I'm not arguing ESP for the soliton further, if need be I'll even make a separate thread to update the ESP page to avoid further confusion given it hasn't been updated in 3+ years so it's out of date.
I'm saying it again. Soliton isnt ESP. You're heavily misinterpreting the page for it and saying because it has a similar effect it's ESP. Ill ******* go make a thread right now to have the page get updated and specified further if I must but I'm hoping I dont have to explain further why emp pulses and satellite resonance and sonar isnt a supernatural psychic or spiritual perception, which is literally what ESP is. ESP is completely fine for other reasons, both Big Boss and Solid have it for being able to see ghosts and souls, like on 5 different occasions, but it sure as hell aint because of Soliton. I'm not compromising on this, literally a blatant lie to say it is. Having a similar function doesnt mean it's the same, especially when it sensing life and matter signatures isnt the same as what the page means (life as in like ki sensing from DBZ not biological chemical reactions like heartbeats) and matter signatures as well, given Soliton does it by literally just using sonar and waves that bounce off objects to create a pseudo 3D map via ricochet and satellite, it's tantamount to saying echolocation is ESP. Similar effect=/=Same ability. We arent listing it as such unless you can give an actual reason why it would be, none of which you've given would count. The closest reason given was given by me, that being it can sense ghosts, though that's because ghosts in MGS have EM fields that the radar picks up on.
Move onto the next topic, I'm not arguing ESP for the soliton further, if need be I'll even make a separate thread to update the ESP page to avoid further confusion given it hasn't been updated in 3+ years so it's out of date.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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**** the ESP thing, there are far more pressing topics to cover.
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After ESP, in order the next is Volgin heat resistance potency shit. Though, I think we all agreed he should have, just the potency of which is the point of contention. If we skip that as well. The next matter that hasnt been fully agreed on is...
Venom scaling and be solidly 8-B.
I think is the Ocelot Venom TMOF scaling shit. But as it's been established and discussed above. The SKULLS and Big Boss are at least comparable. And Venom can fight the SKULLS physically in both gameplay and cinematics so his 8-B should be fine based on that. The reasoning on the profile can be changed to that instead.
Venom scaling and be solidly 8-B.
I think is the Ocelot Venom TMOF scaling shit. But as it's been established and discussed above. The SKULLS and Big Boss are at least comparable. And Venom can fight the SKULLS physically in both gameplay and cinematics so his 8-B should be fine based on that. The reasoning on the profile can be changed to that instead.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I agree, Kaz thinks they're a threat to Big Boss himself and he didn't know Venom wasn't BB at first, so he at least is somewhere in BB's Physical League right?
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The SKULLS were explicitly stated to be dangerous and a threat to Big Boss in Kaz's mind.
The SKULLS also were intended to be used to kill Big Boss by people like Skullface.
Both Skullface and Kaz think the SKULL unit is a threat to Big Boss, in the case of Kaz he makes it very clear that he thinks Big Boss, Venom in realty, would have trouble defeating them, and is awestruck when he does.
As such, if SKULL units can contend with Big Boss and are a big enough threat to where his best decades long friend thinks it's a huge issue in direct fighting, and Venom can contend with Skull units. by virtue, they're all solidly around the same tier. Big Boss being the strongest is fine, I agree he's above Venom and the skulls, but it aint by a ridiculous amount, it's not enough to say that 8-B flat out isnt fine, Big Boss is like, at least, 2x baseline. Being comparable is reason enough to flat out scale, even if the scaling is via SKULL units not Big Boss himself.
The SKULLS also were intended to be used to kill Big Boss by people like Skullface.
Both Skullface and Kaz think the SKULL unit is a threat to Big Boss, in the case of Kaz he makes it very clear that he thinks Big Boss, Venom in realty, would have trouble defeating them, and is awestruck when he does.
As such, if SKULL units can contend with Big Boss and are a big enough threat to where his best decades long friend thinks it's a huge issue in direct fighting, and Venom can contend with Skull units. by virtue, they're all solidly around the same tier. Big Boss being the strongest is fine, I agree he's above Venom and the skulls, but it aint by a ridiculous amount, it's not enough to say that 8-B flat out isnt fine, Big Boss is like, at least, 2x baseline. Being comparable is reason enough to flat out scale, even if the scaling is via SKULL units not Big Boss himself.
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So yeah, let's stop debating about the ESP, because neither one of us is going to be able to convince the other, and it isn't even relevant at all, since we're just discussing what name to give to an ability, not what it does.
I'll go on on to Volgin's resistance, tho there's little to debate about that, finding common ground should be easy
I'll go on on to Volgin's resistance, tho there's little to debate about that, finding common ground should be easy
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I already said what I think on that.
Heat resistance is fine. But the level of which being proposed, is not.
To say again, it doesnt matter if he was fine for like five seconds after getting hit. The way heat works as a whole would have him be fine anyway, heat transfer and thermodynamics exist, and it's something we as a wiki certainly take into account, that's how we calc heat feats to begin with. All that matters is that, after the scene was said and done, he went from being beaten up and scoffed up to a charred blackened husk, and it most certainly wasnt because of the bullets unless you want to argue that bullets can somehow cook someone. Yes the bullets hurt him, but him being hurt by the bullets doesnt mean he wasnt fried, theyre two seperate things happening at the same time.
Put simply, he was struck by a lightning bolt, the heat from the ignition then proceeded to quickly cook him alive in the course of like a minute, by the end of the scene he is charred. This is confirmed, as Big Boss makes note of the irony in that despite using electricity to attack, he was ultimately fried by a lightning bolt. Fried, in most cases, and this case as well, refers to and is defined by cooking something. As such, Volgin was cooked by a lightning bolt, which is what we see happen and is confirmed by Big Boss.
Resistance to heat is fine, earlier in the game he catches on fire and stays ablaze for a bit and is completely fine and takes no visual damage from it, but the heat of a natural lightning bolt is a bit much for him.
Now, I'll wait for your reply, but I'm fine with it, just not the potency.
Heat resistance is fine. But the level of which being proposed, is not.
To say again, it doesnt matter if he was fine for like five seconds after getting hit. The way heat works as a whole would have him be fine anyway, heat transfer and thermodynamics exist, and it's something we as a wiki certainly take into account, that's how we calc heat feats to begin with. All that matters is that, after the scene was said and done, he went from being beaten up and scoffed up to a charred blackened husk, and it most certainly wasnt because of the bullets unless you want to argue that bullets can somehow cook someone. Yes the bullets hurt him, but him being hurt by the bullets doesnt mean he wasnt fried, theyre two seperate things happening at the same time.
Put simply, he was struck by a lightning bolt, the heat from the ignition then proceeded to quickly cook him alive in the course of like a minute, by the end of the scene he is charred. This is confirmed, as Big Boss makes note of the irony in that despite using electricity to attack, he was ultimately fried by a lightning bolt. Fried, in most cases, and this case as well, refers to and is defined by cooking something. As such, Volgin was cooked by a lightning bolt, which is what we see happen and is confirmed by Big Boss.
Resistance to heat is fine, earlier in the game he catches on fire and stays ablaze for a bit and is completely fine and takes no visual damage from it, but the heat of a natural lightning bolt is a bit much for him.
Now, I'll wait for your reply, but I'm fine with it, just not the potency.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Yeah, I agree with Chariot.
I'm gonna end up saying that a lot in this thread, aren't I?
I'm gonna end up saying that a lot in this thread, aren't I?
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I agree with basically everything, only thing of note that I didn't agree with was minor death manipulation for Big Boss via Fake Death Pill, which is more like Body Control since he's manipulating his vitals to appear dead
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It ain't, and he ain't manipulating anything. He's taking a potassium cyanide pill that slows down his vitals to put him in a near death like state and will literally kill him if he doesn't take an antidote within like, 30 seconds.
All it is is limited poison manipulation that only applies to himself.
Also just to make sure, you did read the whole thread right? Before saying you agree with everything bar just the pill. Because things like deconstruction and the like have been hard rejected.
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He was actually completely fine for over 20 seconds, it's not much, but I'm fairly sure that being able to tank a certain temperature for 20 seconds straight without repercussions would at least warrant a minor resistance to said heat.
Actually, now that I check, it's not even very clear if Volgin was a "blackened husk" at all at the end, because if you look here you can clearly see that all the skin on his left arm and on his neck is barely charred (coming from the previous battle) and here you can see that his face is completely fine and he still has his hair (here you can see that both his arm and face are not blackened any more significantly than they were before). What really makes him look completely charred is the black smoke coming from his """corpse""", which is most likely due to the gunpowder from his bullets, and even then, in the panning shot you can still see that his face is just as it was before.
Overall I think that even if you dan't want his resistance to plainly scale to lightning, a "possibly higher" would work
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Honestly the ESP thing matters more on the definition of the abilities than the ability itself, we should probably ask for it to be clarified somewhere else.
I think a possibly higher would be a fine compromise, of course we'd have to explain that too in the profile. Either way this isn't really worth discussing about.
I think a possibly higher would be a fine compromise, of course we'd have to explain that too in the profile. Either way this isn't really worth discussing about.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I honestly think the most pressing matter we should really focus on is RAY.
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I think RAY should be left at the end, actually, cause we may talk about it for a looooot
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Also for the ESP, I do agree a separate thread should be made
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>He was actually completely fine for over 20 seconds, it's not much, but I'm fairly sure that being able to tank a certain temperature for 20 seconds straight without repercussions would at least warrant a minor resistance to said heat.
It doesn't, at all. If said heat literally cooked him alive and turned him to a black husk, he doesn't scale to it, at all. Saying he does, even implying he does, is outright lying. 20 seconds doesn't matter when 10 seconds later he isn't fine. At all. Matter of the fact is lightning literally fried him and essentially killed him, saying it didn't or doing mental gymnastics to say otherwise is wrong.
>Actually, now that I check, it's not even very clear if Volgin was a "blackened husk" at all at the end, because if you look here you can clearly see that all the skin on his left arm and on his neck is barely charred (coming from the previous battle) and here you can see that his face is completely fine and he still has his hair (here you can see that both his arm and face are not blackened any more significantly than they were before). What really makes him look completely charred is the black smoke coming from his """corpse""", which is most likely due to the gunpowder from his bullets, and even then, in the panning shot you can still see that his face is just as it was before.
He's visually more blackened then he was before, how much? Doesn't matter, point is he clearly took damage and was burned by the heat. He didn't resist anything. And the smoke isn't from his bullets, maybe? Sure maybe you could say it is. But what's more likely. The visible smoke coming from the bullets (the smoke wouldn't even last for more than a second or two if it was from the bullets mind you) or from the body currently on fire? And, I don't know why, but youre ignoring the fact it's literally confirmed that the lightning bolt cooked him alive. This entire conversation is pointless, there's nothing to argue, because we're told it cooked him alive. You can argue semantics all you want, at the end of the day it's outright said that he was fried by a bolt of lightning, and we don't give resistances to things that FRY the character in question. And that's without getting into the whole can of worms that is The Man on Fire, don't think I need to remind you that the man on fire is on fire for a reason, said reason being it represents his "death" of being burned alive.
>Overall I think that even if you dan't want his resistance to plainly scale to lightning, a "possibly higher" would work
No. Saying there's a "possibly higher", implies there's actually a possibility of a tier in question. His best showing pales to what is being proposed, and we don't give ratings or add onto things like that unless we have good reason to do so. We have no reason to do so. He has two feats, tanking fire, and being fried by a lightning bolt. Nothing else. What's that mean? It means we just use the lower one and call it a day, we don't do shit like add "possibly higher" without substantial evidence to back it up, the only way we'd add that is if we randomly picked a value between fire and lightning and say "it's possibly around here", but we don't do shit like that, a random arbitrary value is a solid no go for anything on this wiki.
Point is, he can withstand heat, ok. But can he withstand lightning? No.
Look, Volgin was hit by a lightning bolt, the lightning bolt fried him. That's it, no more, no less. To argue that it didn't fry him is blatantly false as it was outright said it did, and then comes back later in the phantom pain. No offense, but I'm not keen on putting blatant half truth's on the profiles. Volgin is in no way scaling to a lightning bolt that fried his ass, and that's without getting into the fact he's forced to wear a rubber suit to even go all out lest he be damaged by his own. Those scars all over his body didn't come from nowhere, it's from his own lighting ripping through his body and creating Lichtenberg scars.
Heat resistance is fine. Resistance to lightning based heat isn't, it fried him explicitly and comes back as his later self as a blazing demon man.
It doesn't, at all. If said heat literally cooked him alive and turned him to a black husk, he doesn't scale to it, at all. Saying he does, even implying he does, is outright lying. 20 seconds doesn't matter when 10 seconds later he isn't fine. At all. Matter of the fact is lightning literally fried him and essentially killed him, saying it didn't or doing mental gymnastics to say otherwise is wrong.
>Actually, now that I check, it's not even very clear if Volgin was a "blackened husk" at all at the end, because if you look here you can clearly see that all the skin on his left arm and on his neck is barely charred (coming from the previous battle) and here you can see that his face is completely fine and he still has his hair (here you can see that both his arm and face are not blackened any more significantly than they were before). What really makes him look completely charred is the black smoke coming from his """corpse""", which is most likely due to the gunpowder from his bullets, and even then, in the panning shot you can still see that his face is just as it was before.
He's visually more blackened then he was before, how much? Doesn't matter, point is he clearly took damage and was burned by the heat. He didn't resist anything. And the smoke isn't from his bullets, maybe? Sure maybe you could say it is. But what's more likely. The visible smoke coming from the bullets (the smoke wouldn't even last for more than a second or two if it was from the bullets mind you) or from the body currently on fire? And, I don't know why, but youre ignoring the fact it's literally confirmed that the lightning bolt cooked him alive. This entire conversation is pointless, there's nothing to argue, because we're told it cooked him alive. You can argue semantics all you want, at the end of the day it's outright said that he was fried by a bolt of lightning, and we don't give resistances to things that FRY the character in question. And that's without getting into the whole can of worms that is The Man on Fire, don't think I need to remind you that the man on fire is on fire for a reason, said reason being it represents his "death" of being burned alive.
>Overall I think that even if you dan't want his resistance to plainly scale to lightning, a "possibly higher" would work
No. Saying there's a "possibly higher", implies there's actually a possibility of a tier in question. His best showing pales to what is being proposed, and we don't give ratings or add onto things like that unless we have good reason to do so. We have no reason to do so. He has two feats, tanking fire, and being fried by a lightning bolt. Nothing else. What's that mean? It means we just use the lower one and call it a day, we don't do shit like add "possibly higher" without substantial evidence to back it up, the only way we'd add that is if we randomly picked a value between fire and lightning and say "it's possibly around here", but we don't do shit like that, a random arbitrary value is a solid no go for anything on this wiki.
Point is, he can withstand heat, ok. But can he withstand lightning? No.
Look, Volgin was hit by a lightning bolt, the lightning bolt fried him. That's it, no more, no less. To argue that it didn't fry him is blatantly false as it was outright said it did, and then comes back later in the phantom pain. No offense, but I'm not keen on putting blatant half truth's on the profiles. Volgin is in no way scaling to a lightning bolt that fried his ass, and that's without getting into the fact he's forced to wear a rubber suit to even go all out lest he be damaged by his own. Those scars all over his body didn't come from nowhere, it's from his own lighting ripping through his body and creating Lichtenberg scars.
Heat resistance is fine. Resistance to lightning based heat isn't, it fried him explicitly and comes back as his later self as a blazing demon man.
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ok, let's just also drop this, because it's gonna be me saying "the bullets killed him, he was fine up until the bullets started going off" and you answering "Snake says he got fried, so he died from the heat of the lightning" over and over with no end in sight, let's not forget that there are other people here, sho let's see what they think.
Honestly, what I think is that we see NO progressive burning whatsoever, he's baraly any more blackened than he was before getting struck at the end of the whole ordeal, and he only displays pain when the bullets start going off. In my view, no matter what snarky remark Snake made, Volgin died from the bullets going off, not the lightning cooking him, there's absolutely no reason to show the bullets going off and Volgin only expressly showing damage when this happens if the intent was to show that Volgin died from being burnt alive by the lightning.
Honestly, what I think is that we see NO progressive burning whatsoever, he's baraly any more blackened than he was before getting struck at the end of the whole ordeal, and he only displays pain when the bullets start going off. In my view, no matter what snarky remark Snake made, Volgin died from the bullets going off, not the lightning cooking him, there's absolutely no reason to show the bullets going off and Volgin only expressly showing damage when this happens if the intent was to show that Volgin died from being burnt alive by the lightning.
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Kuwabara Kuwabara is a saying meant to ward off thunder, which means Volgin is afraid of it. I guess it could be because he's afraid it'll trigger his bullets but that's really a bit of a stretch. Also, he begins to scream as the first bullet goes off, but logically there'd be a diny delay before the screaming. I think he was just in shock at having been hit by thunder right after he mocked it for the first time, which is why he didn't immediately show pain.
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? Kuwabara Kuwabara? When did he ever say this? And it's not really a stretch, he always goes around with bullets on himself and getting struck by lightning would make them go off, killing him, it wouldn't be a direct fear, but still very conrete. It would be a ridiculous coincidence if the lightning started to hurt him JUST AS the first bullet started exploding, it's far more likely that he simply screamed immediately because he's not a real character and doesn't necessarily follow the rule of having to process pain before screaming, you know? Also there is a slight delay between the explosion and the scream
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What? It doesn't matter what killed him, I don't think I even said the lightning was what killed him and if I did, oh well, doesn't change any of my points or the end result, I said was that he was fried and cooked alive by it. All that matters is that he didn't resist the lightning. Even if he wasn't KILLED by it, he was still burned and harmed by it.
He was struck by lightning, Big Boss explicitly points out the lightning fried him. Conversation over, it should have ended there.
Saying Snake made a snarky remark is just a dishonest way to hide the fact that he in reality was burned by it. It wasn't even snarky or smug, he's literally just pointing out what happened.
Also you ignored the very concept of the man on fire, I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure it was outright said that he manifests as a, well, a man in fire because of the fact he was burned alive. Does it mean it killed him? No. But not dying to something doesn't give you a resistance, that'd be like trying to give Meruem a few threads down resistance to nuclear heat for surviving a nuke, even though he became a literal potato from it. Of course that's an extreme example but my point remains.
He was struck by lightning, Big Boss explicitly points out the lightning fried him. Conversation over, it should have ended there.
Saying Snake made a snarky remark is just a dishonest way to hide the fact that he in reality was burned by it. It wasn't even snarky or smug, he's literally just pointing out what happened.
Also you ignored the very concept of the man on fire, I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure it was outright said that he manifests as a, well, a man in fire because of the fact he was burned alive. Does it mean it killed him? No. But not dying to something doesn't give you a resistance, that'd be like trying to give Meruem a few threads down resistance to nuclear heat for surviving a nuke, even though he became a literal potato from it. Of course that's an extreme example but my point remains.
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Kuwabara is litterally Volgin's catchphrase.
You also ignored the fact he has to wear a rubber suit to even use his lightning at a high output and the fact his body is COVERED in Lichtenberg scars proving he doesn't even resist his OWN lightning.
Couple that with Big Boss confirmation that he was fried, and the whole man on fire being on fire for a reason.
You're to focused on bullets hurting that you're ignoring everything else, it ain't mutually exclusive, it ain't like being stabbed in the neck means having your arms broken ain't a issue either. Also fire tends to burn nerve endings at a certain heat, heat of a ridiculous caliber isn't painful because it ***** with the nerves.
You also ignored the fact he has to wear a rubber suit to even use his lightning at a high output and the fact his body is COVERED in Lichtenberg scars proving he doesn't even resist his OWN lightning.
Couple that with Big Boss confirmation that he was fried, and the whole man on fire being on fire for a reason.
You're to focused on bullets hurting that you're ignoring everything else, it ain't mutually exclusive, it ain't like being stabbed in the neck means having your arms broken ain't a issue either. Also fire tends to burn nerve endings at a certain heat, heat of a ridiculous caliber isn't painful because it ***** with the nerves.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Twellas, you're making this far more difficult than it needs to be.
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Yeah, those scars couldn't have come from nothing. He definitely does resist his lightning, otherwise he'd kill himself the second he used it, rubber or not, just not perfectly, so of course far stronger electricity would kill him.
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Which is the same as saying that the lightning killed him, but if it wasn't the lightning (ergo, the lightning's heat) that killed him, then the point is moot, so yeah, it does matter what killed him
But not burnt to a lethal degree, and since he doesn't show significant physical damage, if he didn't die from the heat, then he would scale to it
And i seem to recall that it was actually something about his "burning hatred" of Big Boss, which makes a lot more sense, since the very reason Mantis was attracted to him was his negative emotions
ah yeah now i remember, on the bridge, at the end of the virtuous mission. to be honest, there's no indication that he actually uses it as a protective ward, knowing him, it's far more likely that he's just being a **** and using it as a way to "warn his opponents of the impending lightning" or some shit like this. It's not even like Volgin displays some deep interest towards japanese folklore.
Lichtenberg scars are caused by the rapture of the capillars within the skin, they have little to do with heat. Also, electrically speaking, i have no idea how a rubber suit would protect him, since it would merely make it impossible for his lightning to discharge to the ground, making it more intense if anything, but whatever.
And mate, if we say that the scarring was from the heat, Volgin resists it with the rubber suit, he always wears it, which means that he should get the resistance
oh so, the lightning fried his nerve endings, which is why he... screamed... in pain... 5 seconds later... for the bullets?
Seriously, I'm going to take what we are shown in cutscenes over a backhanded comment by Snake, now if it was actually stated in regards to TMOF that he was... on fire because of his cause of death then ok, but I won't take Snake's comment over what's clearly shown in the cutscene
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>Which is the same as saying that the lightning killed him, but if it wasn't the lightning (ergo, the lightning's heat) that killed him, then the point is moot, so yeah, it does matter what killed him
No it doesn't? Don't pull that. He was cooked alive. We were told this. Does this mean that's what killed him? Maybe, but if it did or didn't that doesn't change the fact he was cooked alive, being cooked alive doesn't mean cooked to death, it just means he took major burning. We see it happen, and it was said to have happened. Ergo, it happened, or are your u really going to say that him not being killed by it means it's a resistance? If so, go touch a stovetop burner right now and tell me that you resist it because you didn't die from it.
>But not burnt to a lethal degree, and since he doesn't show significant physical damage, if he didn't die from the heat, then he would scale to it
Yeah, maybe AP wise in regards to the joules. But heat wise? No, because he didn't resist being burned. Not DYING doesn't mean you resist something, if he was burned he doesn't resist heat of that calibur. This is kinda straightforward.
>And i seem to recall that it was actually something about his "burning hatred" of Big Boss, which makes a lot more sense, since the very reason Mantis was attracted to him was his negative emotions
His hatred is what kept him alive. Somehow? Doesn't change that he manifested as the thing that did him in. Mantis was attracted to Big Boss' hatred too, and Skullface's, and Eli's. Hell Big Boss' hatred made him go nuclear, metaphorically, and Eli's hatred was so strong that he literally ditched everyone else and even allowed TMOF to nearly die. Yet, when Mantis takes control of them and takes on their attributes, fire isn't involved. Skull Face his mask changes, Venom he gets a horn, Eli a armband. But TMOF? He catches on fire too. Mantis was attracted to a bunch of people due to negativity. So that ain't why he manifested the way he did. Not an actual reason, like, at all. And doesn't change WHY he manifested ablaze over the alternative, just how he "survived" as long as he did, through raw big dick energy essentially.
>.ah yeah now i remember, on the bridge, at the end of the virtuous mission. to be honest, there's no indication that he actually uses it as a protective ward, knowing him, it's far more likely that he's just being a **** and using it as a way to "warn his opponents of the impending lightning" or some shit like this. It's not even like Volgin displays some deep interest towards japanese folklore.
Didn't say it was. You said when did he say it, I pointed out how it's literally his catchphrase. Nothing more, nothing less, I personally think he uses it as a catchphrase to warn others too. But that don't change what happened to he himself.
>Lichtenberg scars are caused by the rapture of the capillars within the skin, they have little to do with heat.
That right there is a blatant falsehood. It's a mix of a bunch of things, not just heat, but heat is sure involved.
>Also, electrically speaking, i have no idea how a rubber suit would protect him, since it would merely make it impossible for his lightning to discharge to the ground, making it more intense if anything, but whatever.
Don't blame me, I'm fully aware how bullshit that is, it shouldn't even work. But it does. His rubber suit protects him from his own lightning and he can't use higher outputs of it without damage. That's what we're told, and we can see the consequences of it regardless so we know it's true. It is what it is, fiction be fiction sometimes, but we aren't going to act like that isn't exactly how it works in lore just because it makes no sense irl.
>And mate, if we say that the scarring was from the heat, Volgin resists it with the rubber suit, he always wears it, which means that he should get the resistance
Except, Volgin doesn't use lightning, he uses electricity. We don't actually know how hot his version is, especially given his rubber suit failed to insulate a natural lightning strike. If you can find a heat for his electricity, fine, but we ain't scaling it to something it ain't.
>oh so, the lightning fried his nerve endings, which is why he... screamed... in pain... 5 seconds later... for the bullets?
Yeah sure, fire would burn and fry surface level nerves and would take time to spread further in. Bullets? Well I don't think I have to explain why being pumped full of bullets would hurt regardless of some epidermis nerve damage.
>Seriously, I'm going to take what we are shown in cutscenes over a backhanded comment by Snake, Now if it was actually stated in regards to TMOF that he was... on fire because of his cause of death then ok, but I won't take Snake's comment over what's clearly shown in the cutscene
You keep saying it's a backhanded remark. No offense, but that's blatant bullshit. You're making that up, complete conjecture.
Volgin gets hit by lightning, he catches fire, gets burned, gets pumped full of lead, falls over.
Snake, says, and I quote. "Fried by a bolt if lightning... A fitting end".
Snake doesnt say this as a joke, he doesn't say it to be smug. Hell he's basically deadpan.
Volgin got hit by lightning and was fried, this is what we see, this is what we're told immediately after. The issue with all your arguments is that they're ASSUMPTIONS. It could be the smoke was from the gunpowder, it could be that the bullets are what killed him, it could be a lot of things, and you would have a point.
IF, it wasn't confirmed by Snake and in MGSV that the lightning actually did cook his ass, that alone makes your assumptions and alternative interpretation fall apart, because we're told that something happened and it did.
You outright ignoring a confirmation of what we see ain't gonna change that it happened.
>ok, in a MGS5 Tape Ocelot says "Volgin was burned alive with the Shagohod (...) despite suffering severe burns, he still clung to life".
I mean, like, that's what I've been saying this whole time? It was made pretty clear in the game itself. Don't know why we had to debate this when Big Boss outright confirms it. It may not have killed him, but it hurt him, and if it burned him, that ain't resistance.
>He doesn't resist lightning, case closed, on to the next point, which is...?
Venom being flatout 8-B instead of just likely or possibly.
>Oh, and in the same tape Ocelot states that "modern medicine couldn't explain why he was still alive", so, further supporting evidence for Type 2 Immortality
I never disagreed with Type 2 for him, that was someone else. But cool, that helps support it.
No it doesn't? Don't pull that. He was cooked alive. We were told this. Does this mean that's what killed him? Maybe, but if it did or didn't that doesn't change the fact he was cooked alive, being cooked alive doesn't mean cooked to death, it just means he took major burning. We see it happen, and it was said to have happened. Ergo, it happened, or are your u really going to say that him not being killed by it means it's a resistance? If so, go touch a stovetop burner right now and tell me that you resist it because you didn't die from it.
>But not burnt to a lethal degree, and since he doesn't show significant physical damage, if he didn't die from the heat, then he would scale to it
Yeah, maybe AP wise in regards to the joules. But heat wise? No, because he didn't resist being burned. Not DYING doesn't mean you resist something, if he was burned he doesn't resist heat of that calibur. This is kinda straightforward.
>And i seem to recall that it was actually something about his "burning hatred" of Big Boss, which makes a lot more sense, since the very reason Mantis was attracted to him was his negative emotions
His hatred is what kept him alive. Somehow? Doesn't change that he manifested as the thing that did him in. Mantis was attracted to Big Boss' hatred too, and Skullface's, and Eli's. Hell Big Boss' hatred made him go nuclear, metaphorically, and Eli's hatred was so strong that he literally ditched everyone else and even allowed TMOF to nearly die. Yet, when Mantis takes control of them and takes on their attributes, fire isn't involved. Skull Face his mask changes, Venom he gets a horn, Eli a armband. But TMOF? He catches on fire too. Mantis was attracted to a bunch of people due to negativity. So that ain't why he manifested the way he did. Not an actual reason, like, at all. And doesn't change WHY he manifested ablaze over the alternative, just how he "survived" as long as he did, through raw big dick energy essentially.
>.ah yeah now i remember, on the bridge, at the end of the virtuous mission. to be honest, there's no indication that he actually uses it as a protective ward, knowing him, it's far more likely that he's just being a **** and using it as a way to "warn his opponents of the impending lightning" or some shit like this. It's not even like Volgin displays some deep interest towards japanese folklore.
Didn't say it was. You said when did he say it, I pointed out how it's literally his catchphrase. Nothing more, nothing less, I personally think he uses it as a catchphrase to warn others too. But that don't change what happened to he himself.
>Lichtenberg scars are caused by the rapture of the capillars within the skin, they have little to do with heat.
That right there is a blatant falsehood. It's a mix of a bunch of things, not just heat, but heat is sure involved.
>Also, electrically speaking, i have no idea how a rubber suit would protect him, since it would merely make it impossible for his lightning to discharge to the ground, making it more intense if anything, but whatever.
Don't blame me, I'm fully aware how bullshit that is, it shouldn't even work. But it does. His rubber suit protects him from his own lightning and he can't use higher outputs of it without damage. That's what we're told, and we can see the consequences of it regardless so we know it's true. It is what it is, fiction be fiction sometimes, but we aren't going to act like that isn't exactly how it works in lore just because it makes no sense irl.
>And mate, if we say that the scarring was from the heat, Volgin resists it with the rubber suit, he always wears it, which means that he should get the resistance
Except, Volgin doesn't use lightning, he uses electricity. We don't actually know how hot his version is, especially given his rubber suit failed to insulate a natural lightning strike. If you can find a heat for his electricity, fine, but we ain't scaling it to something it ain't.
>oh so, the lightning fried his nerve endings, which is why he... screamed... in pain... 5 seconds later... for the bullets?
Yeah sure, fire would burn and fry surface level nerves and would take time to spread further in. Bullets? Well I don't think I have to explain why being pumped full of bullets would hurt regardless of some epidermis nerve damage.
>Seriously, I'm going to take what we are shown in cutscenes over a backhanded comment by Snake, Now if it was actually stated in regards to TMOF that he was... on fire because of his cause of death then ok, but I won't take Snake's comment over what's clearly shown in the cutscene
You keep saying it's a backhanded remark. No offense, but that's blatant bullshit. You're making that up, complete conjecture.
Volgin gets hit by lightning, he catches fire, gets burned, gets pumped full of lead, falls over.
Snake, says, and I quote. "Fried by a bolt if lightning... A fitting end".
Snake doesnt say this as a joke, he doesn't say it to be smug. Hell he's basically deadpan.
Volgin got hit by lightning and was fried, this is what we see, this is what we're told immediately after. The issue with all your arguments is that they're ASSUMPTIONS. It could be the smoke was from the gunpowder, it could be that the bullets are what killed him, it could be a lot of things, and you would have a point.
IF, it wasn't confirmed by Snake and in MGSV that the lightning actually did cook his ass, that alone makes your assumptions and alternative interpretation fall apart, because we're told that something happened and it did.
You outright ignoring a confirmation of what we see ain't gonna change that it happened.
>ok, in a MGS5 Tape Ocelot says "Volgin was burned alive with the Shagohod (...) despite suffering severe burns, he still clung to life".
I mean, like, that's what I've been saying this whole time? It was made pretty clear in the game itself. Don't know why we had to debate this when Big Boss outright confirms it. It may not have killed him, but it hurt him, and if it burned him, that ain't resistance.
>He doesn't resist lightning, case closed, on to the next point, which is...?
Venom being flatout 8-B instead of just likely or possibly.
>Oh, and in the same tape Ocelot states that "modern medicine couldn't explain why he was still alive", so, further supporting evidence for Type 2 Immortality
I never disagreed with Type 2 for him, that was someone else. But cool, that helps support it.
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Anyway something something Venom.
Solid 8-B is fine in my opinion, just change the reason to him being able to physically contend with parasite units.
Being weaker then Big Boss is fine too, but he still scales to that tier flatout.
Solid 8-B is fine in my opinion, just change the reason to him being able to physically contend with parasite units.
Being weaker then Big Boss is fine too, but he still scales to that tier flatout.
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