>Yeah, and they do so directly, not via a statement. There is not ONE character who gets their tier by fighting someone who is STATED to be 8-B, not one
That's a blatant lie and you know it. You know how many characters have 8-B feats in Metal Gear? Ignoring the cyborgs.
One, that's right, one
single character yet, half the cast is 8-B. Why? Because they scale (and there's supporting tier 8 feats, but something like 8-C or High 8-C aint 8-B) whether it's directly or indirectly it doesnt't matter. Venom ultimately scales to Big Boss, thus he scales to whatever tier Big Boss is.
>this is... are you serious now? Are you genuinely comparing "breaking a bone" to "******* dying"? Are you seriously ignoring that the existence of the torture scene completely invalidates this? And don't even try and say that Volgin held beck, because he literally used all of his charge on Snake. Are you also going to ignore the fact that Snake ultimately beat him in a h2h combat? This is a laughable argument, Volgin CANNOT oneshot Big Boss, period, end of story.
Yes, the torture scene, where every time Volgin hit Snake, it broke his bones, and Volgin was doing it casually at that. And tanking electricity=/=Taking a punch, there's actually revisions about that soon so I wouldnt get to attached to that just in case it changes. Volgin's punches shatter Big Boss' bones like dry wall. If Volgin got Big Boss into a bear hug and then proceeded to go all out crush him, Big Boss would be crushed in the
exact same way that Venom is. This isn't even a question, if Volgin can casually shatter his bones with normal punches, he can do far worse if he managed to literally bear hug him. And yes, Big Boss beat him in h2h. How's that change the fact Volgin can break Big Boss like a twig if given the chance and can casually crunch his bones? Because it doesn't, that just means Big Boss' skill can help close the gap (Because that's literally why).
Volgin can one shot Big Boss, hell, if he punched Big Boss in the head in the torture scene instead of some non lethal place like a few broken ribs, he'd probably die from that alone given said punches break his bones to begin with.
>Also, care tyo show proof of TMOF being stronger than MGS3 Volgin? Thanks
Dont even have to, it's blatantly obvious. Hell, TMOF can tank survive things far beyond what Volgin could, add some newton';s third law into that equasion then bam, proof he's above base Volgin. If youre asking for a statement saying TMOF is physically stronger then Volgin, that doesnt exist, but it doesnt need to because we see clear as day that he's stronger than him, and Ocelot also treats him as such. Not that it matters, TMOF could crush Big Boss the same way he does Venom because Volgin can crush Big Boss like TMOF does Venom. I dont think you understand the difference between a full force bear hug and casual strikes, if the latter can shatter the bones of someone, the former would crush them beyond repair.
>When the **** doe Miller EVER say that BB can't beat the Skulls? You are just taking the idea of "being a threat" to a ridiculous extent
When he says to get out of there, you cant beat those things? Also, again, you're acting like literally all that's said is "they're a threat", news flash, there's like five info dumps and expositions all saying how dangerous they are in regards to Big Boss' safety. Plus things like stating theyre beyond human limits physically and all this other shit.
>Where did you get this? Because Miller said that they "are a threat"? Also define "kicking their ass", you mean "oneshot"? So what?
Are we also just gonna forget that the Skulls HAVE ******* GUNS? And that ALONE makes them a threat?
No, I mean casually kick their ass. If Big Boss cant one shot them, then guess what? 8-B. He's high enough into the tier that something canonically being able to tank hits from him would warrant 8-B as their rating. And, ok, they have guns? So what? Their guns arent even the strongest attack, the machetes do much more damage then them, let alone the giant hunk of archea they can telekinetically toss at you with enough force to shatter it. And cool, so they have 8-B guns, you do realize that alone creates a 8-B scaling chain for them right?
>Did you read what i wrote? I said "MAINLY use machete", not ONLY use machete. The mist skulls don't use the machete as their main attack and neither do the snipers, only the rock ones do
I did read it yes. The Mist skulls actually do too, they use them in Episode. 6 Where the Bees sleep. The sniper ones use it too, in fact it's their only attack if you get close enough if memory serves. And then of course the Armor Unit is almost entirely machete. Point is, the SKULL's main method of attack is machete, they have guns sure, but it doesnt matter. All that matters is that they have a way to harm Big Boss, and if they can harm him, at all, in any way whatsoever, it'd create a scaling chain that puts them all and Venom at 8-B.
>Seriosuly, can you show me a single proof of TMOF being a super powered version of Volgin? And don't bring up stuff like him surviving bullets or rockets, because that shit is due to his physiology
Being able to survive getting run over by a Metal Gear? Also surviving rockets, bullets are due to his physiology, rockets though? Nah, he'd still take the kinetic force and the aftermath, he does so with zero physical damage in that regard. Also, >why is the immortal flaming version of a dude amped by a psychic master who has feats that pale his former self a superpowered version of his original body.
I dont even think that's worth the response. You HAVE played the game right? TMOF is above Volgin in basically every regard, rockets dont do anything other then make him flinch for a second or two, he has pyrokinesis, he's borderline immortal now, he has absorption, a new body, etc. Only downside is that water is a weakness (but water was a weakness before too, just not as big of one).
>I actually went and rewatched all of the Skulls encounters and no,
You watched? You mean you didnt pull out the game and check yourself? You do realize there's optional dialogue, not all dialogue regarding this is restricted to the encounters right? Hell, not all dialogue even shows up in the encounters that DO show up, sometime the conversations dont pop.
>Miller doesn't expressly think that Skulls>Big Boss.
Maybe, maybe not. What he does think though is that they're such a huge danger that they shouldn't be faced and instead run away. And he visibly expresses his shock if Venom beats them because, well, he didnt think he could. He aint floored by Venom beating them because he thinks they're just a nuisance, he's in awe because he didnt really think it was feasible because they're borderline monsters.
>The extent of what he says is "do not let them find us" in the first encounter, which is most likely due to Miller's state, Ocelot himself points this out as the main reason for them to escape, along with not knowing what the Skulls even are, i quote: "
This is no time to fight, Boss, those things... aren't human, and you've got Miller to worry about on top of that", them being too strong isn't even alluded to by Ocelot
In the first encounter sure, not the rest though. And what do you mean by Millar's state? His state isnt effecting his mental capacity, he's not delusional, he's not making hyperboles, in fact he's astoundingly calm and collected for what he's been through, only thing that comes of it is he becomes a bitter jaded asshole. But it aint like he's talking hyperbolically or anything of the sort. Ocelot had never seen or heard of a SKULL before, why would he be worried about them? Ocelot gives credit where credit is due in some of tapes though, plus Quiet, after he learns of them and the fact they are kinda superpowered as ****.
>, who quite possibly knows Big Boss and his strength even better than Miller, ffs in the second encounter Ocelot actively encourages him to fight. After this the extent of Miller's comments is awe at the fact that he took the Skulls down, that's it, Miller never says that he doesn't think Big Boss can take them down or anything of the sort, all he says is stuff like "You took down the Skulls!? I can't believe it"; it's also worth noting that he makes this kind of remark EVERY TIME SNAKE KILLS THE SKULLS, even after Miller had already seen him kill the Mist Skulls in the first encounter, he says "You took down the Skulls? Boss... you really are a living legend" upon killing them in the second encounter; why would he say this despite knowing for a fact that Snake can actually beat them if, as you say, his surprise comes from him not thinking Big Boss would stand a chance AP-wise?
What? Miller definitely knows Big Boss' strength better then Ocelot, at least at that point in time, later on Ocelot probably does but not in the 70s/early 80s. Did you forget the entirety of Peace Walker, the years before that, and the year after? Miller was the last person to actively engage with Big Boss, he was apart of every single mission he partook in for years. Literally every single thing Big Boss had done over the course of like a decade, Miller knows and was in direct contact while 99% of them happened. Meanwhile Ocelot, well he sure as hell wasnt as closely connected to Big Boss as Miller was. Not even an argument really. If youre gonna say "Ocelot fought Naked Snake directly so he'd know how strong he is at that point", reminder that Millar and his whole unit fought Big Boss directly too. Both lost to him, both seen him in action, except Millar moreso by a few thousand times over. And yeah sure, he's dumbstruck every time because Big Boss defeating the SKULLS every time is a huge achievement in his eyes, it aint something he should just be able to do, yet he does, except Big Boss doesnt beat the SKULLS, Venom does. Miller thinks defeating the SKULLS are a huge wtf how in the shit moment each time, ignoring the fact the SKULLS get progressively more advanced and stronger each time so him being astounded for different units still works regardless. He aint shocked and begins sucking Venom off just because the SKULLS have guns or because theyre a bit more troubling then a normal soldier. "I cant believe it", is said for a reason.
Also you already confirmed yourself the SKULLS have 8-B guns, so yeah, AP wise theyre 8-B. Especially when the machetes do more damage then their guns, and Venom can overpower it. Or, if it's in regards to durability, well, hey that scales too.
>Why would he still be amazed after knowing FOR A FACT that Snake DID stand a chance? Might it be that they are immortal (they easily have immortality type 2, ffs, they don't even die when Snake kills them, they just go to the ground for like 30 seconds and then get up and walk away) superhuman soldiers unlike anything they'd ever seen? And let's not forget the context here, Miller hadn't seen Big Boss in years, and he is convinced that he had just woken up from a 9 years long coma, which would have debilitated him significantly, you can't tell me that Miller just forgot about all of this and expected Big Boss to be at his best
Different units, all of which get more advanced each encounter? To the point the armored unit is literally just the mist unit on roids (they look it too, theyre buff as **** and like a good head taller). And why wouldnt he be amazed? If someone jumps off a building and lands a perfect 10/10 and are fine, you'd be like wtf. And if they do it again youd still be like wtf how.
they have Type 2, sure, and? If they're so much weaker than Big Boss they wouldnt be a threat now would they? Cant be a threat to a dude you cant hurt, but you already admitted their guns can hurt him so that's that. And if their durability was so much less then Big Boss, Type 2 aint gonna do shit when he rips you limb to limb or blows your head clean off with either his raw strength and CQC or his guns, which is what would happen if Venom wasnt solidly 8-B, when he can basically do that himself, the difference you're suggesting here would allow Big Boss to straight up overcome their durability and immortality through raw girth, if Venom can do what he does yet isnt 8-B, when Big Boss is like 2.4x deep into it.
Also, Venom actually was fine, he went through physical therapy and got back into shape after waking up, there's a timeskip between Awakening and Phantom Limbs, forget how long exactly, two weeks or month I think? Miller knew Big Boss was in a coma and... That's it. There's so much Miller didnt know that he couldnt really judge much, he kinda went MIA and did in his own thing. Not to mention, that excuse only works the first time, not the several times after that, because Miller knew damn well Venom, or Big Boss at this point, was back in action. (In fact I'm pretty sure Miller even says at some point that those 9 years didnt slow him down one bit, which funnily enough means he's literally being fooled by Venom and he cant tell a difference between him and Peace Walker Era Big Boss).
>So much wrong with this. No, they DIDN'T take similar damage from Volgin, Naked tanked a beatdown, a torture scene in which he got blasted by all of his charge and then beat him in a fight all without dying, yes, he suffered damage, but nothing that impeded the progress of his mission, let alone permanent. Venom
LITERALLY ******* DIES if TMOF grabs him. In what universe is this comparable?
They quite literally did. What, do you need gifs? Volgin can casually shatter Naked Snake's bones and beat him to a bloody pulp with a smile. TMOF can crush Venom. Does one result in a worse aftermath? Of course. But, one also takes more effort and is far above a simple punch, said punches that can break Snake's bones regardless or coat the floor with blood. If Volgin bear hugged Snake, he'd crush him just like Venom, this isnt a difficult concept to grasp Twellas. Nothing impeded Snake's mission because he can heal broken bones in shit within hours apparently (does he have regen for that actually? He canoically is forced to heal broken bones at least twice, I think three times actually), reminder he was brutalized so badly he pissed himself. He was covered in scorch marks, literally lost an eye due to Ocelot, and we can outright hear Volgin shatter his bones. Aint even the first time Snake canonically gets broken bones in that game either, breaks a few after The Boss tosses his ass into a river.
So yes, it's comparable, comparatively. You're only looking at the result of the attacks and saying they cant be comparable, but ignoring the attacks used. Taking in account casual punches shatter bones, would indeed imply, if not confirm, a full body bear hug would crush someone to death. It's quite comparable all things considered.
>No, it's likely "
for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive", not when we have to guess or estimate; the problem is that you are treating some generic statements as definitive proof, which they aren't
I'm treating statements that say a character is on another character's level as proof. You're just denying it for some unknown reason. Plus like the other dozen supporting factors.
>You are extrapolating this, as i've said, Miller never outright says that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them, he merely expresses surprise as they are defeated, surprise as a result of him originally thinking that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them? Maybe, but it's extrapolation
No, I'm simply taking what he says at face value and with context, while also not outright ignoring the rest of what was said as well. Miller expressly voices his concern in Big Boss fighting them, he simply doesnt believe defeating them is feasible. Literally says, and I quote "I can't believe it Boss", when theyre defeated. And what? It's not extrapolation, it's common sense and occam's razer, He sure as hell aint saying he cant believe Big Boss, Venom in reality, defeated the SKULLS because he thought he
could beat them or for some other trivial matter. At the end of the day, SKULLS can contend with Big Boss, whether it's via durability, strength or even guns, the end result is all the same.
>And again, forgetting that they go around with goddamn guns that would one-tap BB canonically
Cool, so Venom is 8-B then via scaling off their guns. As Metalic Archea makes them impervious to said 8-B guns, and Venom can shatter it.
>And Miller also hadn't seen BB in 9 years and thought he had spent all that time in coma.
The game takes place over the course of months and Miller didnt notice a single discrepancy in output or performance, hell, as said, at one point, Miller even praises him for being just as good as he was in the good ol days, not sure when exactly though, may just be an optional dialogue for doing good on a mission or task. This point is completely irrelevant, and falls apart past Mission 1 though after Miller and Venom become bros again. At least till Ocelot starts undermining him at every turn.
>Bad choice of wording on my par, what i actually meant to say was what i already mentioned before, Miller wouldn't be perfectly capable of gauging Big Boss' strength.
He's literally the best person on the planet at the time to gauge his strength, that's alive anyway. Like, if you're talking down to a literal exact number, sure, why not, knowing someone's strength down to the decimal points is impossible, but Miller still knows an extremely accurate approximation of what Big Boss can do and is capable of in basically every single physical attribute from AP, durability, lifting strength and speed. If Miller thinks the SKULLS are a big threat, is completely fooled by Venom's abilities, and so on. Needless to say, they scale between each other.
>G U N S . Yeah, he "doesn't literally just say "they're a threat" and call it a day", because he never even says "they are a threat" at all, he implies it, yes, but you are talking as if he spends all of his time saying "see those Skulls? They will ******* grind you into mincemeat" over the radio
Ignoring the machete does more damage. And ignoring 8-B bullets would still make them 8-B as theyre impervious to bullets and Venom can still harm them. And actually at one point he basically does say that. Also youre joking right? The guns clearly arent the issue here, the issue is that theyre superpowered soldiers that are vastly superhuman, not the fact they have a gun literally any random ass soldier has. They dont even use special guns, it's the same type a lot of the soldiers in Afgan use, the G44 assault rifle.
>Won't even comment on this.
Why? It's literally true, Like it or not, Volgin shattered Big Boss' bones with his punches. While smiling. Nothing I said there is wrong, it literally happens onscreen for all to see.
>He fooled a Miller who hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, thought he had spent all that time in coma and is half blind
Yeah, fooled him like a half year, Dont be ridiculous and act like fooling Big Boss' best friend for months is actually doable without being basically the same dude. Only way that would be possible is if Miller kinda just forgot everything.
>You've reached the point of just claiming that the Skulls can kill Big Boss as if it's a fact, when there are only statements barely inting at it
Yes. Because they can. Miller believes that the SKULLS are a huge threat, definition of threat.
"a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done."
Ergo, the SKULLS are, of course, able to inflict damage to Big Boss in his mind, but it's not just a "well that can hurt him I guess", contextually it's more along the lines of a life or death situation. So yes, the SKULLS can kill Big Boss, if given the chance. In action, they'd fail, but as we know it's something theyre capable of, it's a true statement. And i wouldnt say "barely hinting it", rather I'd say a basic understanding of the english language and contextual comprehension confirms it.
>... and? Does Sahelanthropus have some 8-B feat or scaling I'm overlooking, or are you saying that he's 8-B just due to being a Metal Gear?
I seriously hope to god you arent claiming the most advanced Metal Gear in history at that point in time isnt 8-B. Even the weakest Metal gear in history is 8-B.
>You do know that THAT thing happening is a huge low end for the verse, right? BB (and venom, for that matter) being put into a coma by what looks to be a barely 9-A explosion and an helicopter collision would completely discredit their 8-B rating at the core. You are justifying Venom's rating based on a feat that, if taken into account, would downgrade almost the entirety of the verse
Nope, that right there is a strawman. I'm not using the "feat" to gauge a tier or to scale them to it, I'm using it to say they're comparable. We're explicitly shown that Venom is comparable to Big Boss in that instant, explicitly so. The feat is a low-end, yes, but that has no bearing on the fact it explicitly shows Venom=Big Boss to some extent. It doesnt matter if the damage they took is a lowend when both of them took said damage from it and both got reduced to the same state. We use things like this? Oh well. It is what it is, Venom bodyblocked an explosion and debris that put Big Boss into a coma, and he lived to become Venom Snake. Ignoring the context and everything about the feat because "the feat is a lowend" doesnt work here. If we did that we'd have to downgrade shit like the Cocoon feat too because it can hurt Big Boss despite it being only 0.8 tons in AP, but we aint gonna throw out the half of the feat just because one facet of it is a lowend.
>1) You take Miller's words and conviction as gospel, completely ignoring the fact that he hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, he thought he had spent that time in coma and he had no way of knowing how strong the Skulls REALLY were, because he only encountered them once and got blitzed. You also take Miller's estimation of Big Boss' strength as if he were a DBZ character capable of sensing Ki or some shit, as if he 1, couldn't make a mistake and 2 he would be able to perfectly tell who BB is supposed to be able to beat and who not
I mean, I take his word over yours, that's for sure. Him not seeing Big Boss in 9 years is a moot point, doesnt effect anything at all, he doesnt instantly forget how strong his best friend and boss is after taking part in hundreds of missions as his colonel campbell. He
thought he was in coma, he didnt know for certain, and that was never brought up as why. He wouldnt need to know how strong the SKULLS are down to the exact percentage, what he seen is enough for him to be like "yeah idk I dont see Big Boss defeating these things". I take Miller's estimation (it isnt even an estimation, stop trying to say Miller doesnt know how strong Big Boss is, he knows exactly what he's capable of) as truth, because it is. Miller knows exactly how strong Big Boss is, he fought the SKULLS for several minutes. From his few minute long fight he concluded that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them. Yet Venom can defeat them. He didnt get blitzed, that's a blatant lie you just made up, the fight lasted at the very least, several minutes, that isnt a blitz. Not to mention he knew what the SKULLS were capable of explicitly from Venom's following encounters, and treated them as if they were still a big issue each time and is awestruck time and time again when Venom pulls through. Who he thinks is Big Boss.
>You either completely ignore the fact that the Skulls have guns or undermine it by bringing up the fact that in-game he can tank them despite it being well established in canon that bullets kill 8-Bs as if they were normal people
Wouldnt matter dude, Venom can break through Metallic Archea, which is completely bullet proof, even rocket proof. All yuou've really done is say bullets are 8-B. Cool, in that case Venom>Archea>>>>>bullets. Though you should probably stop while you're ahead, you really dont want to argue the verse is canonically harmed by normal bullets and the like as a norm, at least, unless you want, Metal Gear 9-B as a verse. Because that's exactly what you'd get if you go down that route.
>You reach over Miller's simple amazement to the point where you interpret it as proof of the Skulls being able to kill Big Boss, not even admitting that it's non-definitive as proof
"I can't believe you beat those things Boss".
>You SOMEHOW try and compare Volgin breaking some of Snake's bones after a long torture scene to Venom instantly dying from getting grabbed by TMOF, completely ignoring the fact that Snake ended up beating Volgin in h2h combat and couldn't have possibly done so if Volgin was capable of one-shotting him, regardless of the fact that Volgin doesn't have a single attack that can one-shot him. And btw, I don't even think Volgin broke any of Naked's bones, because after the the torture scene, Snake's healing panel doesn't show any broken bones
Long? Dude Volgin just straight up out of nowhere begins hitting Snake and every hit he does breaks his bones. It aint like he stands there and hits Snake multiple times in the same spot to weaken the bone to the point it breaks, Volgin does it on a dime. Base Volgin casually can shatter Big Boss bones to the point it's audible. Snake beating Volgin in h2h doesn't matter, he's a fuckton more skilled, Volgin is still physically above him, not by a ludicrous amount as a gap past a certain point cant be mitigated by raw skill alone, but Volgin is still, at the end of the day, canonically and explicitly above Naked Snake in raw strength and can crush his bones with normal punches. And Volgin doesnt one shot Snake with basic punches, never said, what I did say is if Volgin managed to grab hold of Big Boss and proceed to do a full body bear hug to crush him, he'd do exactly that given his punches can outright knock Snake hard on his ass and make him spray blood and when tortured, break his bones casually.
yeah, could you imagine if the game forced you to deal with broken bones after all your equipment is taken away? Did you even think this through before you typed it.
>I am adverse to Venom getting a plain 8-B tier by scaling to the Skulls, but, if there was some other, actually sound scaling I forgot about, then I won't have a problem dropping the "likely", but as of now, I absolutely don't agree with the arguments brought to light
Good for you. I stand by everything I said. If anything you just added more fuel to the fire by hammering in that bullets are 8-B. If bullets are 8-B, and the Armored SKULLS can become completely impervious to bullets (the normal skulls are heavily resistant to bullets as well mind you), and Venom can smash through Archea with raw strength, said Archea that is completely 8-B bullet proof, well there you go. 8-B according to your own logic. Also Rocket Punch can smash through Archea, as well as when Venom smashes machetes through them, he can even kick their legs out and make the armored skulls reel in pain in some CQC animations. You mentioned earlier that the CQC animation for the SKULLS are all recycled, that isnt actually true, there's like two dozen animations, though a lot are very similar.
Another thing to note is TMOF briefly knocked Ishmael, Big Boss, on his ass.
To summarize.
Miller knows how strong Big Boss is, this is undeniable.
Miller thinks beating the SKULLS isnt feasible, and theyre a threat to Big Boss, how? It doesnt matter because it all comes back to 8-B, even if it's just through guns (which makes no sense in context, Miller sure as **** wasnt worried about the guns in any of those situations but rather the SKULLS themselves, other then the sniper unit).
Miller is always floored when Venom beats the SKULLS because he simply didnt think it doable, given he knows exactly how strong Big Boss is, this means he thinks Big Boss defeating them wasnt feasible.
Miller had a direct run in with the SKULLS that lasted for minutes, from that encounter, he gauged them to be monstrous and not something that can be easily contended with, if at all.
Miller couldnt tell the difference between Venom and Big Boss at all, even at one point pointing out how he's as good as he's always been at some point.
Venom scales above Frank too, in a weird ass roundabout way, but he does.
If bullets are 8-B, then Venom scales due to being able to damage Archea, which takes a shit ton of bullets to break, in the case of the Armored SKULLS, even the strongest weapon in the game bar DLC, cant break it in one hit.
Sahelntropus can smash trough Metalic Archea with raw strength as well, making him 8-B at least too (ignoring the fact he was the most advanced Metal Gear at the time, even specifically designed to be a combat oriented one).
Volgin in base can casually break Big Boss' bones and spray blood, TMOF with a bear hug can crush Venom, the latter may be far more lethal and aint exactly walked off, but that was because it was a full body bear hug, not just a simple punch. If someone who can smash your bones bear hugged you, you'd be crushed as well. What's this mean? It means that Venom being defeated by TMOF via bear hug crush aint a real counterpoint.
Venom explicitly took the brunt of something and shielded Big Boss from it, and Big Boss was out into a coma from it anyway, yet Venom lived too despite taking like 95% of the attack. Low-end feat? Of course, but the context of the feat isnt wrong just because it has small dick numbers instead of unga bunga numbers behind it.
Also the fact Solid Snake later on couldnt tell the difference between Venom and Big Boss (he never learned of venom, he thought it was Big Boss both times), so throw that into the pile of "Venom is such a good copy of Big Boss nobody can pick up on it except super AI and people who literally caused it".
There's way to much shit saying Venom scales to 8-B without a shadow of a doubt.
SKULLS having guns means shit overall, because if those guns are 8-B, then so is Archea, and if Archea is 8-B, so is Venom. This isnt hard to grasp, it's basic A>B>C scaling.
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>Guess Meryl in MGS1 because 8-B when Mantis mind controlled her uh?
Literally used just her because Mantis is a psychopath (half the reason why he's called PSYCHO mantis) and as a hostage because he's a huge ****** at that point and literally just wants to watch the world burn.
>except Mantis doesn't give a crap about killing Big Boss and clearly only acts out of personal fun, if he wanted to effectively take out Venom he would have mind-manipulated his ass and that would have been the end of it
You're implying mind manipulating works. Also, I should make note, Big Boss can harm Psycho Mantis with his weapons, a single shot is enough to stun him and make him flee (Though it's hard to actually hit him because he does exactly what he does to Solid Snake in MGS1).
>Again, proof of Mantis boosting his subjects' power?
Mantis literally made the dude into a revitalized superhuman dude with pyrokinetic powers. It aint even a boost, it's a straight up evolution.
>Not really, in a cassette tape he states "I was always uncomfortable around him, thought i might get electrocuted just by standing nearby", he was always afraid of Volgin, and nothing implies he's more scared of TMOF, and even if it were, it would be different, TMOF is an immortal, immaterial being, of course it would be more scary than a normal human even with comparable AP
TMOF isnt immaterial. We know he's physically there, just that he's, well, on fire, the teleporting is more Mantis' doing. And "it would be different" implies, no, outright states, that, that is 100% why that's the reason. No offense, but you've done that a lot. It's a possibility, at best. Also you're ignoring the fact that why would ANYONE be afraid of TMOF if the TMOF couldnt kick their asses. You did that with the SKULLS too, someone having extra abilities means nothing in the context of harming someone if said abilities arent offensive. How is TMOF being almost immortal matter if he cant harm someone? Also, TMOF is a threat to Ocelot too early on, should clarify than too, most certainly not because Ocelot is "worried about Venom", he's worried for the both of them. If they have comparable AP than venom scales. Should also mention TMOF has some attacks that are identical to Volgin's, which aren't one shots.
>Won't even touch this, this is laughable, his tornadoes are barely building sized. We've come to the point where we say that a character is superior to another because "tornadoes are bigger than lightning bolts"?
No, but we can say it because he is. It's not even being superior to another character. it's being superior to himself when he was human. Which is so blatantly obvious that you arguing it isnt feels entirely like grasping at straws. Also, again, TMOF's awakening caused Big Boss and Ocelot to hasten their plan for a body double in the form of Venom, took about two weeks to pull off but they did it for a reason, the reason being TMOF was a threat to Big Boss' life and they knew he'd come for him, and soon at that.
>>Except Sahelantrhopus was expressly made with the idea of it self destructing, which is why it's armor is made of Uranium, not even durable enough to
block every type of tank shell, Huey states that Sah's armor can stop "most tank shells", not all of them, which means that it isn't even impervious to average human tech, now compare this to even just Peace Walker, whose inner armor can tank nukes and tell me if it looks like a linear progression to you.
It's a wholly different metal gear made for a completely different purpose that expressly goes against its statistics (Sah's tapes go in legth to explain how uranium is objectively worse than ceramics in almost every noteworthy aspect, but Huey had to use it because Sah' main purpose was self-destruction).
8-B tank shells my dude according to you. Unless the average bullet > a tank in Metal Gear. Also, it was only the AI Pod that had nuclear defenses, and nothing Big Boss had could dent it, meanwhile moments before he could put peace Walker into disrepair. The AI Pod had to willingly open up for him after he unleashed his entire arsenal onto it. (And Sahel was meant to have an AI Pod too anyway). Sahel' AP and combat wise, is the strongest metal gear up that point, defensive wise, maybe not, but its AP matters more than its durability for literally every point made by everyone here in regards to scaling.
Edit: Also, fyi, gameplay feats count too. Cocoon, Peace Walker, ZEKE, the Ray dodge and more are all feats done in gameplay, we arent going to discredit Venom surviving attacks in gameplay otherwise we'd throw out half the verse.
There's really no point arguing this further. This can be left to majority of opinion if we scale venom flat out or not.
