Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

I gotta go now, but my main gripe towards the plain tier is that there is no actual scaling supporting this, in the sense that he doesn't fight anyone we know for a fact is 8-B (he fights TMOF but he's clearly extremely inferior, TMOF straight up one shots him if he gets his hands on VS if I'm not mistaken) and he doesn't have 8-B feats, what he has is the fact that he "fooled" 2 guys, one who was in on the whole thing, the other who's half blind and hadn't seen BB in some time, and probably didn't even know his full strength either way, into thinking that he was someone who's 8-B, and fighting a group of enemies that are, according to one of the 2 characters mentioned before, a threat to the 8-B character, although it's never stated that said threat would be strictly related to AP and not the crazy hax the SKULLS have, or the infective parasite that, for all Miller knew, Big Boss could have been effected by.
I simply don't really like the idea of Venom having a plain 8-B tier without any solid scaling backing him, it's not even a matter of me thinking he's weaker than Big Boss, it's just that the hard, cold scaling is not there.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Anyway something something Venom.

Solid 8-B is fine in my opinion, just change the reason to him being able to physically contend with parasite units.

Being weaker then Big Boss is fine too, but he still scales to that tier flatout.

Very much so.

 

[Chariot190]

>although it's never stated that said threat would be strictly related to AP and not the crazy hax the SKULLS have, or the infective parasite that, for all Miller knew, Big Boss could have been effected by.

It actually is though. Miller had no ******* idea a parasite existed thus him saying that he doubts Big Boss could beat the unit and to get the **** away now aint about that (they primarily attack via archea machete anyway), so that's thrown out the window completely, they don't find out till way later (it starts getting hinted at around Ch.17 I think, they dont actually know something is happening till Ch.20 Voices at the Devil House, and they don't actually learn about the parasite in full and what it is till 27).
And hax? The only hax they have is metallic archea, which Venom can smash through and survive hits from so...
And doesn't matter. Miller thought Big Boss wouldn't be able to beat the SKULLS, yet Venom does, multiple times, even in CQC, even when amped by Archea.

Miller knows how strong the skulls are and Big Boss, he fought both and got his ass kicked, he has experience with both and knows how strong both are, Big Boss especially. Yet he thought Big Boss not only couldn't defeat the SKULLS, but that the SKULLS were a huge threat to him. It should be noted the SKULLS that Miller fought were primarily CQC SKULLS, with some basic weaponry. Nothing that would avoid scaling to Big Boss directly. And Venom goes on to fight even more advanced units.

There is solid backing and scaling, he can fight the SKULLS, skulls that Big Boss would have issue defeating according to his right hand man who knows Big Boss' strength very well (Meaning that they have the durability, speed and the like to make it so Big Boss cant just steam roll them). And Miller makes it clear that the SKULLS are a threat multiple times, in multiple encounters, the first encounter all the way to the last. And he didn't know Venom was Venom till like, after Sahelanthropus if I'm not wrong, aka, after every SKULL encounter, so basically everytime he said that, it was in reference to Big Boss as a benchmark.

Also don't even try and use that "Miller probably didn't know Big Boss' strength", he literally fought him before, that's how they met, Big Boss took Miller's whole unit and then saved Miller from killing himself via frag, they then become close friend and Millar basically built MSF and Diamond Dogs for him, and was in contact with him in almost EVERY SINGLE MISSION he did for years, he's literally Big Boss' Colonel Campbell or, ironically enough, Solid Snake's master, ****, he basically watched him fight ZEKE, which would include shit like benching the thing. Using "Miller doesn't know how strong Big Boss was" is the single most unrealistic assumption I've seen this thread.

Venom=Skulls, who are 8-B for being a threat to Big Boss and Big Boss being stated to have trouble with them. Not really a complex scaling chain.

Also let's not even get into the possibility of him taking hits from Sahelanthropus or how Venom literally took the brunt of an explosion and debris that put Big Boss into a temporary coma, even though Venom took most of it.

>and he doesn't have 8-B feats,

Yeah so? Half the verse is that tier through scaling. Same applies here. Also, Venom's stun arm is High 8-C alone, and it's completely useless against SKULLS (does stamina depletion but not health damage) It can't even hurt them. Yet Venom can smash through metallic archea with his raw strength, and then nearly bisect the skulls or hit them hard enough they reel in pain (he can even outright shatter one's arm, without blowing off his shoulder in the process. Also he one screen overpowers Quiet in CQC with no weapons for either, just raw strength and skill).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Chariot makes the most sense to me.

 

[00potato]

Oof this is a big one.
I guess I gotta throw my hat in with Chariot.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, I've gotta agree, basically nobody has 8-B feats in MGS outside of the ones whose feats we use for scaling, and there's really nothing that counters Venom Snake being comparable to BB. However, I can confirm that the Man on Fire does one-shot you if he gets his hands on you, as I did experience that one or two more times than I'd have wanted in my fight against him. I do also think TMOF is a fair bit stronger than Volgin was in MGS3, though, considering who's powering him up, the stuff he survives, how he's generally treated and the fact that he's, you know, on fire. Being grabbed by someone on fire would hurt.

 

[Twellas]

Yeah so? Half the verse is that tier through scaling

False, all of them scale via actual combat with the person with whom they scale, not via fighting someone who according to someone is a threat to someone who is 8-B, even people who never fought Volgin or BB have fought someone who has fought BB, but that's not the case for Venom, whose only encounter with someone we know for a fact is 8-B ends with him dying in one hit as soon as said character gets his hands on him.

t actually is though. Miller had no ******* idea a parasite existed thus him saying that he doubts Big Boss could beat the unit and to get the **** away now aint about that (they primarily attack via archea machete anyway), so that's thrown out the window completely

Most (if not all) of the SKULLs actually use guns, and that would already be a major threat to BB, and I can already hear you say "then why doesn't Miller tell BB to watch out for all armed soldiers?" because fodder armed soldiers cannon go intangible, invisible, can't outrun horses, can't materialize guns out of thin air and aren't superhuman (in the MG sense of the word at least, they can still tank ridiculous amount of electricity and survive getting ran over, but that's beside the point). The only skulls who fight mainly via machete are the "rock" ones, and at that point there is tangible evidence of the parasite being able to infect others, and they still use guns, if I recall correctly

Using "Miller doesn't know how strong Big Boss was" is the single most unrealistic assumption I've seen this thread.

yeah, and it's because that's not what i said, what I said was "probably didn't even know his full strength", of course Miller would know how strong Big Boss is, but I don't think he ever saw him fully exherted or anything of the sort, even in his fights with the Metal Gears, which would logically be hard for him and show how good he really is, he didn't use AP because he couldn't hit them.

Venom=Skulls, who are 8-B for being a threat to Big Boss and Big Boss being stated to have trouble with them. Not really a complex scaling chain.

It is tho, because th skulls don't have 8-B feats and don't scale to anyone who's 8-B through anything else than a vague statement from someone ("being a threat" to someone is as vague as it gets. ffs someone tells something like this to Snake in every game in regards to the grunts he's gonna fight.)

there's really nothing that counters Venom Snake being comparable to BB

Jesus guys, my problem isn't with Venom being comparable to BB, that's not the point of my argument, the point of my argument is that he doesn't plainly scale to anyone we know FOR A FACT is 8-B, and the only time he fought an 8-B he gets oneshot and can't hurt him in any way; the definition for "likely" here is "to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable". The justification for his tier would be scaling to some characters (skulls) who according to another character "Miller" are "a threat" to an 8-B character; Miller is admittedly knowledgeable, and would be a reliable source, if it wasn't for how vague the idea of "being a threat is" and the Skulls going around with guns, which are consistently portrayed as being able to kill 8-Bs in the verse, are haxed to hell and back (compared to the average MG character, that is) and go around with a mist that can turn people into zombies; add to this the fact that the only encounter with the og 8-B character boils down to an unwinnable (most of the times) bossfight where Venom has to exploit his weakness to put him down and if he gets grabbed he instantly dies. But as I said, the justification for this tier does come from a reliable source, which warrants at least a "likely" instead of "possibly"

 

[Twellas]

Let's be clear: I'm not vehemently against a plain scaling for Venom, but I think it would be kinda misleading

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not necessarily against a likely, quite frankly I don't really care one way or the other, but I think there's enough to put it away.

 

[Chariot190]

>False, all of them scale via actual combat with the person with whom they scale, not via fighting someone who according to someone is a threat to someone who is 8-B, even people who never fought Volgin or BB have fought someone who has fought BB, but that's not the case for Venom, whose only encounter with someone we know for a fact is 8-B ends with him dying in one hit as soon as said character gets his hands on him.


Not false. Dont pull that. Literally half the cast has no 8-B feat. This isnt a matter of debate. Half the cast doesnt even have a tier 8 feat. They scale though. Why? Because they can fight characters that do, or characters that scale to said characters. Which is exactly what happens here. If youre talking about TMOF, TMOF. even in base, could shatter Big Boss' bones like Styrofoam. TMOF can one shot Venom, he can also one shot Big Boss. Not a reason to say they dont scale. Ignoring the fact that TMOF was explicitly a threat to Big Boss as well so...

>Most (if not all) of the SKULLs actually use guns, and that would already be a major threat to BB, and I can already hear you say "then why doesn't Miller tell BB to watch out for all armed soldiers?" because fodder armed soldiers cannon go intangible, invisible, can't outrun horses, can't materialize guns out of thin air and aren't superhuman (in the MG sense of the word at least, they can still tank ridiculous amount of electricity and survive getting ran over, but that's beside the point).

And Venom can overpower every single one of them. Dont strawman, I didnt say that nor was I gonna say that. Ignoring the fact the SKULLS dont go intangible and dont actually materialize shit out of nothing (the mist unit can store things but that's it, there's no intangibility anywhere, it's just camo), None of that is offensive or defensive hax. At all. Miller says Big Boss cant defeat the SKULLS, Venom does. Ergo, it doesnt matter. At the absolute minimum, The SKULLS have durability enough to where Big Boss cant just kick their ass, yet Venom can do it physically. Not to mention rip through Metallic Archea. Actually, so what if the SKULLS can go invisible? If they lacked the AP to harm Big Boss, they wouldnt be able to hurt him, or they lacked the durability, they wouldnt be a issue. Invisibility doesnt change either of those outcomes (and the SKULLS dont even use invisibility while attacking, so that cant be why either). It really doesnt matter if they have some extra abilities, because said abilities dont effect if they could harm Big Boss or if they couldnt, theyre all nonoffensive and defensive hax that doesnt change the outcome of anything, except Archea which is defensive, but, Venom can punch through it so it doesnt matter.

>The only skulls who fight mainly via machete are the "rock" ones, and at that point there is tangible evidence of the parasite being able to infect others, and they still use guns, if I recall correctly

Straight up a lie. Every single SKULL has a machete. Quite literally every single one. And they use it as their main attack. Even the ******* sniper unit uses the machete if you get close.
Guns are used mostly at ranged, and only in slight bursts. They primarily go for attacking with the machete, in fact usually, there's two SKULLS at any given time that are outright scripted to try and attack with a machete while two stay back and fire some shots.

>yeah, and it's because that's not what i said, what I said was "probably didn't even know his full strength", of course Miller would know how strong Big Boss is, but I don't think he ever saw him fully exherted or anything of the sort, even in his fights with the Metal Gears, which would logically be hard for him and show how good he really is, he didn't use AP because he couldn't hit them.

Which is, quite frankly, bullshit. I'm not even going to bother debating with you if youre going to use such a ridiculous claim. Miller knows how strong Big Boss is. Are you really trying to say that Miller, someone who's fought Big Boss directly, was in contact with him for every single mission he had done for years on end. Is his best friend and actively trains with him earlier on. Has done such things like bench giant ******* mecha at their homebase for all to see (unless we say that feat didnt actually happen) and so on and so forth, yet somehow doesnt know how strong Big Boss is? And he's been aware for times when Big Boss had to exert himself, Peace Walker is a game that exists mind you.
Ignoring the fact you have to prefix such a ridiculous claim with "probably", which, like a chunk of your claims so far, tend to be straight up assumptions, should probably imply that if such a claim is only possibly true, it's likely not true at all, this isnt a type of claim that's reasonable enough to where an assumption like that can work, there's literally no reason to say Miller doesnt know how strong Big Boss is, in the slightest. I dont want to hear this point brought up again, it's such a flimsy and outright ludicrous claim to make to try and say Venom doesnt scale, quite frankly, it's ridiculous. Miller knows the extent of Big Boss' strength, this is essentially fact.

>It is tho, because th skulls don't have 8-B feats and don't scale to anyone who's 8-B through anything else than a vague statement from someone ("being a threat" to someone is as vague as it gets. ffs someone tells something like this to Snake in every game in regards to the grunts he's gonna fight.)

Vague? It isnt vague. It is said numerous times that by Miller that the SKULLS are a huge threat, he thinks Big Boss cant defeat them, is absolutely awestruck when he does, are literally called monsters and demons by Miller due to their raw combat ability. Like it or not, the SKULLS are a threat to Big Boss, why are they a threat? Because if given the chance they can kill him in lore, how would they kill him? Doesnt matter, because Venom can tank any hit from them all. And there's also the fact that Big Boss wouldnt be able to beat them, at least according to Miller, what's that mean? It means that Miller thinks Big Boss is incapable of harming them, that, or they're so overwhelmingly strong that they'd tear him apart before he got the chance to retaliate. But they can tank the force of their own attacks so it'd scale to durability anyway. And youre acting like this was only said once, vaguely, no, it's reiterated like a dozen times throughout the game that Miller thinks SKULLS>Big Boss. SKULLS dont need 8-B feats the same way Olga doesnt. An 8-B character, Big Boss can be killed by them and can would have at least some issue killing them back. Venom can tank every single attack from them and not drop dead (Except sniper attacks on extreme, but Miller wasnt talking about those, he didnt know they existed till that very moment).

>Jesus guys, my problem isn't with Venom being comparable to BB, that's not the point of my argument, the point of my argument is that he doesn't plainly scale to anyone we know FOR A FACT is 8-B, and the only time he fought an 8-B he gets oneshot and can't hurt him in any way; t

Said 8-B is also a huge threat to the real Big Boss too. And the SKULLS are 8-B no matter how you slice it, even if just through AP or durability (And if it's only ine facet of that, the other ends up scaling as well), none of their hax is applicable to harming someone so it's a literal moot point.

> the definition for "likely" here is "to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable". The justification for his tier would be scaling to some characters (skulls) who according to another character "Miller" are "a threat" to an 8-B character; Miller is admittedly knowledgeable, and would be a reliable source, if it wasn't for how vague the idea of "being a threat is" and the Skulls going around with guns

It isnt likely. It's flatout. The SKULLS are 8-B, Venom can fight them, ergo, he's 8-B too. Also are you doing that on purpose? Youre acting like the only thing that was said was "Wow these are a threat to Big Boss". even though in reality it's like a dozen different expositions of Miller losing his shit and panicking, It's not vague, you're acting like it is, and put simply, it isnt. It couldnt get anymore explicit unless Miller kicked down your door himself and handed you a ten paragraph essay detailing the attributes of a SKULL and how they compare with Big Boss. And mind you, it isnt just Miller who thinks the SKULLS are an issue, Skullface (who should know how strong Big Boss is) and Ocelot (though you've already made it clear youre going to ignore everything he has to say, even though his hypnotherapy didnt run out till way later) says theyre a issue too.

>and the Skulls going around with guns, which are consistently portrayed as being able to kill 8-Bs in the verse, are haxed to hell and back (compared to the average MG character, that is) and go around with a mist that can turn people into zombies;

Ok so then Venom is 8-B then, he can tank hits from their guns, And with metallic Archea, the skulls are impervious to all but the most powerful weaponry available to Venom (and it takes multiple hits to even break the armor with said weaponry). And yet Venom can physically rip through that shit. The "hax" you speak of is barely hax, it's invisibility and, well that's basically it. The rest dont effect anything, not even that does. And Venom is immune to that mist. So is Miller actually thinking on it. The mist obviously wasnt the issue, and IF for some weird ass reason you want to argue it was a issue and that's why Miller was worried, it would no longer be an issue and the reason he says the shit he does in the following half dozen encounters with the SKULLS as he'd know Venom, ie, Big Boss, was immune to the mist as Venom literally walked through the shit while carrying Millar on his back, wouldnt be about said mist. So again, mist isnt why theyre a threat and if it was guns, even better, Venom can bisect them nearly, even while wearing Archea, which makes them temporary impervious to all weaponry, but not to Venom's CQC and fists.

> and if he gets grabbed he instantly dies. But as I said, the justification for this tier does come from a reliable source, which warrants at least a "likely" instead of "possibly"

Yes, the strongest 8-B in the game can one shot Venom if he gets close enough to him to bearhug him to death. So? Shit would happen with Big Boss too. Saying an 8-B can one shot a 8-B is perfectly fine. It aint like it's a small tier, not to mention said 8-B is now a superpowered version of himself, who was already 8-B, who even while human, could casually shatter Big Boss' bones with his strikes. In fact, that's literally all that's happening when he grabs Venom, he breaks his bones and renders him incapable of fighting, game over. Which if anything just shows how Venom and Big Boss are kinda comparable, took similar damage from Volgin, only difference is one was base and was borderline demonic and superpowered beyond even his former self.

If his tier comes from a reliable source, then it's flat out? It's only "Likely" if we can only guess or estimate, But we arent. The only guess we have to make here is how far into 8-B he is, not that he's 8-B to begin with. Venom can fight SKULLS, he can tank hits from them and harm them physically, even if they wear Archea. The SKULLS can harm Big Boss and Big Boss would have trouble defeating them as per reliable source, no hax is involved in this process because 1. The parasite was never known early on, and when it was known, that still sure as hell wasnt why Miller was panicking, to say that was is completely dishonest. 2. All their hax is completely nonoffensive, it wouldnt help kill or harm Big Boss, or anyone for that matter, best thing it's used for is stealth or going out of sight, but that's all it does, to actually harm the dude they'd still need the AP and the like otherwise it'd just be sneaking up on a dude to do zero damage. And if Big Boss would have trouble fighting them, it means he cant just steamroll their ass, they have some level of durability to prevent that, and with Archea, they become impervious to 99% of weaponry, and Venom can still harm them physically, so, if the reason why Big Boss would have trouble defeating them, assuming it isnt because they'd kill him first through AP and Archea (which would scale back to Venom and make him 8-B), itd be through durability (scales back to Venom and makes him 8-B) or through Archea enhancements making them more durability and thus a issue to deal with by Big Boss, which, of course, scales back to Venom and makes him 8-B.

Also, there's a bunch of other shit to that suggests direct scaling to Big Boss, but youre kinda ignoring it. The profile isnt even wrong when it says he fooled Miller, Miller thought he was Big Boss, and mind you, Miller saw Venom fight directly.

Basically your counterargument is

1. Miller doesnt know Big Boss full strength.

Which is an utterly ridiculous claim.

2. Them being a threat is vague.

It isnt vague, we know it isnt because of hax that doesnt actually help not die or to kill targets, and if it was, which it wasnt, it would stop being the reason after the first encounter where Miller knows things like the mist doesnt effect Venom, ie, Big Boss in his mind, and the only defensive hax they have, Archea hardening, Venom scales too. Also Miller reiterates how dangerous they are like a dozen times, he doesnt literally just say "theyre a threat" and calls it a day. And besides, in order to be a threat, in context, an extreme danger that could resultn in death if you fight them, they'd need a way to actually kill Big Boss, and they only ways they have would scale to Venom.

3. Venom can be one shot by TMOF.

So can Big Boss, even before the supernatural demonic enhancements, he could shatter Big Boss like a piece of stale bread, literally crunches his bones with a smile on his face.

4. Everything else doesnt count, or is ignored.

You cant ignore everything else dude, he fooled Miller, he can beat SKULLS that can kill Big Boss if given the chance, he can arguably take attacks from Sahelantropus, not to mention, and you completely ignored this, Venom body blocked an explosion and debris from hitting Big Boss, that put Big Boss in a coma, and yet Venom still lived. The very fact he lived an attack that put Big Boss into a coma despite the fact he took like 95% of it is reason enough to say he's comparable flatout.

Flatout 8-B is fine and has concrete evidence behind it, nothing you've said has changed my stance on it. The reasoning should be changed, but there's really no reason to say he's only likely 8-B, doing that implies there's also a chance he isnt 8-B, when he is. Only issue is how far into it he is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, if Venom doesn't scale to Big Boss at this point (it's honestly starting to sound like he's physically superior to him in raw stats but not skill) then I don't know what else to bring up. Chariot has my vote of confidence.

 

[Chariot190]

Venom probably is superior to him, at least with his bioarm. Which fyi he can take hits from.
The rest he's likely inferior to, including other physicals, but it sure as hell aint by much. Only real big difference is skill and experience, and I guess cunning? (and by the time of MG1, it may not be much in experience given he continued the legacy for 11 years, doing missions around the globe).
Should also make mention he's probably outright above Frank Jaeger in MG1, who could fight the real Big Boss.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do we actually have any statements that Venom is weaker than BB or worse than him in any way? Not that I'm saying it's the opposite, mind you.

Also the only alive (at that point) people who know BB's strength better than Miller are Ocelot, Big Boss himself, and possibly Zero. There's zero chance Miller doesn't know what Snake can truly do.

He's at the very least comparable to Jaeger, considering Snake fights them both (I think? Haven't played the MG games yet)

 

[Chariot190]

Nothing says he's weaker. If anything contextually he's supposed to be a nearly perfect expy.

indeed. It could also be argued that Skull Face would have at least a general idea, he did extensive research into Big Boss, if he thought skulls and the like would be a good thing to use, there's probably a reason for that.

Snake fights Venom but the fight kinda happened quickly, though, he also beats Frank, in the sequel. Pretty sure it was said Big Boss was the strongest there too, which we now know, was actually Venom, and Gray Fox, a solid 8-B, was captured by Outer Heaven, if Venom was the top dog there, and they had the capability to capture Gray Fox, that implies Venom>Whoever the **** put Gray Fox in a cell assuming he was caught by one of the commandos or simply didnt **** up spectacularly. (Also Miller went out of his way to try and tear down Venom and Outer heaven and Big Boss, Miller, at that point in time, is aware of all of them and their capabilities). Actually, thinking on it, Venom probably trained Snake too, Venom, should be aware of Snake's capabilities, if not through direct contact with Snake previously, at least through Big Boss telling him everything about Solid and Operation Intrude, though, ultimately both Venom and Big Boss underestimated Snake, that was more along the lines of they didnt expect him to gather that much info and the truth, not really underestimating him in power, this is important because Venom thought he could at the very least, take Snake out himself down with him and Outer Heaven, he failed, but he at least thought he could take him so there cant be a huge difference given we know Big Boss and Venom dont tend to under or overestimate opponents. They take them at facevalue and try their best to quickly incap or kill in a optimal manner.
There's definitely reason to say Venom>Frank. And we know Frank could fight Big Boss in his youth as Null so he's 8-B directly.

 

[Twellas]

Not false. Dont pull that. Literally half the cast has no 8-B feat. This isnt a matter of debate. Half the cast doesnt even have a tier 8 feat. They scale though. Why? Because they can fight characters that do, or characters that scale to said characters

Yeah, and they do so directly, not via a statement. There is not ONE character who gets their tier by fighting someone who is STATED to be 8-B, not one

If youre talking about TMOF, TMOF. even in base, could shatter Big Boss' bones like Styrofoam. TMOF can one shot Venom, he can also one shot Big Boss.

this is... are you serious now? Are you genuinely comparing "breaking a bone" to "******* dying"? Are you seriously ignoring that the existence of the torture scene completely invalidates this? And don't even try and say that Volgin held beck, because he literally used all of his charge on Snake. Are you also going to ignore the fact that Snake ultimately beat him in a h2h combat? This is a laughable argument, Volgin CANNOT oneshot Big Boss, period, end of story. Also, care tyo show proof of TMOF being stronger than MGS3 Volgin? Thanks

And Venom can overpower every single one of them. Dont strawman, I didnt say that nor was I gonna say that. Ignoring the fact the SKULLS dont go intangible and dont actually materialize shit out of nothing (the mist unit can store things but that's it, there's no intangibility anywhere, it's just camo), None of that is offensive or defensive hax. At all. Miller says Big Boss cant defeat the SKULLS, Venom does.

When the **** doe Miller EVER say that BB can't beat the Skulls? You are just taking the idea of "being a threat" to a ridiculous extent

The SKULLS have durability enough to where Big Boss cant just kick their ass

Where did you get this? Because Miller said that they "are a threat"? Also define "kicking their ass", you mean "oneshot"? So what?
Are we also just gonna forget that the Skulls HAVE ******* GUNS? And that ALONE makes them a threat?

Straight up a lie. Every single SKULL has a machete. Quite literally every single one. And they use it as their main attack. Even the ******* sniper unit uses the machete if you get close.

Did you read what i wrote? I said "MAINLY use machete", not ONLY use machete. The mist skulls don't use the machete as their main attack and neither do the snipers, only the rock ones do

it's reiterated like a dozen times throughout the game that Miller thinks SKULLS>Big Boss. SKULLS dont need 8-B feats the same way Olga doesnt. An 8-B character, Big Boss can be killed by them and can would have at least some issue killing them back.

I actually went and rewatched all of the Skulls encounters and no, Miller doesn't expressly think that Skulls>Big Boss. The extent of what he says is "do not let them find us" in the first encounter, which is most likely due to Miller's state, Ocelot himself points this out as the main reason for them to escape, along with not knowing what the Skulls even are, i quote: "This is no time to fight, Boss, those things... aren't human, and you've got Miller to worry about on top of that", them being too strong isn't even alluded to by Ocelot, who quite possibly knows Big Boss and his strength even better than Miller, ffs in the second encounter Ocelot actively encourages him to fight. After this the extent of Miller's comments is awe at the fact that he took the Skulls down, that's it, Miller never says that he doesn't think Big Boss can take them down or anything of the sort, all he says is stuff like "You took down the Skulls!? I can't believe it"; it's also worth noting that he makes this kind of remark EVERY TIME SNAKE KILLS THE SKULLS, even after Miller had already seen him kill the Mist Skulls in the first encounter, he says "You took down the Skulls? Boss... you really are a living legend" upon killing them in the second encounter; why would he say this despite knowing for a fact that Snake can actually beat them if, as you say, his surprise comes from him not thinking Big Boss would stand a chance AP-wise? Why would he still be amazed after knowing FOR A FACT that Snake DID stand a chance? Might it be that they are immortal (they easily have immortality type 2, ffs, they don't even die when Snake kills them, they just go to the ground for like 30 seconds and then get up and walk away) superhuman soldiers unlike anything they'd ever seen? And let's not forget the context here, Miller hadn't seen Big Boss in years, and he is convinced that he had just woken up from a 9 years long coma, which would have debilitated him significantly, you can't tell me that Miller just forgot about all of this and expected Big Boss to be at his best

Said 8-B is also a huge threat to the real Big Boss too

I mean, he's as big a threat to him as MGS3 Volgin was, as long as you don't prove that Mantis somehow boosted his power

none of their hax is applicable to harming someone so it's a literal moot point.

THEY HAVE GUNS THAT CAN ONESHOT BIG BOSS (as well as any other 8-B in the verse really), are you just going to ignore this?

It isnt likely. It's flatout. The SKULLS are 8-B, Venom can fight them, ergo, he's 8-B too

They are not tho, you are seriously talking as if you have footage of the Skulls fighting Big Boss, a tier based on a characters surprise upon them being defeated is far from solid. Also, you are talking about Miller's statement as if he were a ******* Dragonball character who can sense people's ki and perfectly gauge their power level, Miller would of course know how strong Big Boss is but not down to the ton-yield. Also, Miller's knowledge of the Skulls comes ONLY from them wiping out his team of fodder D-Dog soldiers away, he would need to be a literal DBZ character to be able to accurately deduce their power level just from this breif encounter.

even though in reality it's like a dozen different expositions of Miller losing his shit and panicking, It's not vague, you're acting like it is, and put simply, it isnt

Miller never panicks once, unless you consider him saying "It's the Skulls, don't let them find us, Boss!" as "panicking". Only thing he actually displays is marvel as they get killed

Ok so then Venom is 8-B then, he can tank hits from their guns

Man come on, are you even trying anymore? I'm talking canonically, Big Boss can also tank bullets in-game, but canonically bullets are consistently shown to be able to kill Snakes

And with metallic Archea, the skulls are impervious to all but the most powerful weaponry available to Venom (and it takes multiple hits to even break the armor with said weaponry). And yet Venom can physically rip through that shit.

? Where? All I see is him piercing it with the machete because the animations are recycled for all of the skulls, I don't recall him ever punching through the Archea

Yes, the strongest 8-B in the game can one shot Venom if he gets close enough to him to bearhug him to death. So? Shit would happen with Big Boss too

No, it WOULDN'T happen to Big Boss too, there's simply no evidence of this, and I've already discussed why your argument of Volgin being able to oneshot Snake is completely ludicrous. Saying that Big Boss would also instantly die from TMOF is a complete assumption

It aint like it's a small tier, not to mention said 8-B is now a superpowered version of himself

Seriosuly, can you show me a single proof of TMOF being a super powered version of Volgin? And don't bring up stuff like him surviving bullets or rockets, because that shit is due to his physiology

In fact, that's literally all that's happening when he grabs Venom, he breaks his bones and renders him incapable of fighting, game over

No, what's happening is that Venom ******* dies, game over, stop trying to strawman your way into comparing broken bones to literal death.

Which if anything just shows how Venom and Big Boss are kinda comparable, took similar damage from Volgin, only difference is one was base and was borderline demonic and superpowered beyond even his former self.

So much wrong with this. No, they DIDN'T take similar damage from Volgin, Naked tanked a beatdown, a torture scene in which he got blasted by all of his charge and then beat him in a fight all without dying, yes, he suffered damage, but nothing that impeded the progress of his mission, let alone permanent. Venom LITERALLY ******* DIES if TMOF grabs him. In what universe is this comparable?
And again, evidence of TMOF being stronger than Volgin other than "he's demonic"? Thaaaaaanks

It's only "Likely" if we can only guess or estimate, But we arent

No, it's likely "for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive", not when we have to guess or estimate; the problem is that you are treating some generic statements as definitive proof, which they aren't

Big Boss would have trouble defeating them as per reliable source

You are extrapolating this, as i've said, Miller never outright says that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them, he merely expresses surprise as they are defeated, surprise as a result of him originally thinking that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them? Maybe, but it's extrapolation

no hax is involved in this process because

And again, forgetting that they go around with goddamn guns that would one-tap BB canonically

The profile isnt even wrong when it says he fooled Miller, Miller thought he was Big Boss, and mind you, Miller saw Venom fight directly.

And Miller also hadn't seen BB in 9 years and thought he had spent all that time in coma.

1. Miller doesnt know Big Boss full strength.

Which is an utterly ridiculous claim.

Bad choice of wording on my par, what i actually meant to say was what i already mentioned before, Miller wouldn't be perfectly capable of gauging Big Boss' strength.

2. Them being a threat is vague.

It isnt vague, we know it isnt because of hax that doesnt actually help not die or to kill targets, and if it was, which it wasnt, it would stop being the reason after the first encounter where Miller knows things like the mist doesnt effect Venom, ie, Big Boss in his mind, and the only defensive hax they have, Archea hardening, Venom scales too. Also Miller reiterates how dangerous they are like a dozen times, he doesnt literally just say "theyre a threat" and calls it a day. And besides, in order to be a threat, in context, an extreme danger that could resultn in death if you fight them, they'd need a way to actually kill Big Boss, and they only ways they have would scale to Venom.

G U N S . Yeah, he "doesn't literally just say "they're a threat" and call it a day", because he never even says "they are a threat" at all, he implies it, yes, but you are talking as if he spends all of his time saying "see those Skulls? They will ******* grind you into mincemeat" over the radio

So can Big Boss, even before the supernatural demonic enhancements, he could shatter Big Boss like a piece of stale bread, literally crunches his bones with a smile on his face.

Won't even comment on this.

You cant ignore everything else dude, he fooled Miller

He fooled a Miller who hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, thought he had spent all that time in coma and is half blind

he can beat SKULLS that can kill Big Boss if given the chance

You've reached the point of just claiming that the Skulls can kill Big Boss as if it's a fact, when there are only statements barely inting at it

he can arguably take attacks from Sahelantropus

... and? Does Sahelanthropus have some 8-B feat or scaling I'm overlooking, or are you saying that he's 8-B just due to being a Metal Gear?

you completely ignored this, Venom body blocked an explosion and debris from hitting Big Boss, that put Big Boss in a coma, and yet Venom still lived. The very fact he lived an attack that put Big Boss into a coma despite the fact he took like 95% of it is reason enough to say he's comparable flatout.

You do know that THAT thing happening is a huge low end for the verse, right? BB (and venom, for that matter) being put into a coma by what looks to be a barely 9-A explosion and an helicopter collision would completely discredit their 8-B rating at the core. You are justifying Venom's rating based on a feat that, if taken into account, would downgrade almost the entirety of the verse

My problems with your arguments are

1) You take Miller's words and conviction as gospel, completely ignoring the fact that he hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, he thought he had spent that time in coma and he had no way of knowing how strong the Skulls REALLY were, because he only encountered them once and got blitzed. You also take Miller's estimation of Big Boss' strength as if he were a DBZ character capable of sensing Ki or some shit, as if he 1, couldn't make a mistake and 2 he would be able to perfectly tell who BB is supposed to be able to beat and who not

2) You either completely ignore the fact that the Skulls have guns or undermine it by bringing up the fact that in-game he can tank them despite it being well established in canon that bullets kill 8-Bs as if they were normal people

3) You reach over Miller's simple amazement to the point where you interpret it as proof of the Skulls being able to kill Big Boss, not even admitting that it's non-definitive as proof

4) You SOMEHOW try and compare Volgin breaking some of Snake's bones after a long torture scene to Venom instantly dying from getting grabbed by TMOF, completely ignoring the fact that Snake ended up beating Volgin in h2h combat and couldn't have possibly done so if Volgin was capable of one-shotting him, regardless of the fact that Volgin doesn't have a single attack that can one-shot him. And btw, I don't even think Volgin broke any of Naked's bones, because after the the torture scene, Snake's healing panel doesn't show any broken bones. You also take for granted that TMOF is stronger than Volgin for no other reason than "he's demonic", when in fact even Ocelot, who knows him well doesn't point out that he's become stronger or anything of the sort.

I am adverse to Venom getting a plain 8-B tier by scaling to the Skulls, but, if there was some other, actually sound scaling I forgot about, then I won't have a problem dropping the "likely", but as of now, I absolutely don't agree with the arguments brought to light

 

[Armorchompy]

Volgin was actively not trying to kill Snake, that's why it's called, you know, torture, and not murder.

Sahelanthropus is commanded by Mantis, who's 8-B, and so is the Man on Fire. Of course, Mantis is 8-B through scaling with Snake in MGS1, but nothing indicates psychic powers grow with age, especially considering Mantis destroyed his village when even younger than he is in MGSV

 

[Twellas]

Volgin actively used all of his charge on Snake, if he was strong enough to oneshot him, Snake would have died there and then, and Snake would have ******* died 3 seconds after the bossfight started, drop it, it's absolutely laughable to even imply that Volgin can oneshot Snake when Snake's tier comes from tanking Volgin's full charge without dying or suffering permanent damage

Sahelanthropus is commanded by Mantis, who's 8-B, and so is the Man on Fire. Of course, Mantis is 8-B through scaling with Snake in MGS1, but nothing indicates psychic powers grow with age, especially considering Mantis destroyed his village when even younger than he is in MGSV

Guess Meryl in MGS1 because 8-B when Mantis mind controlled her uh? Got any proof of Mantis' "control" boosting the target's power? Or are we just going to assume that TMOF is stronger than Volgin because he looks stronger? Or that Sahelanthropus is 8-B because "it's a Metal Gear"?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I actually made some comments on the 8-B calculation with further analysis.

 

[Armorchompy]

If Mantis was stronger than Sal or TMOF he wouldn't have used them for the sake of combat, duh. Besides, he took over Meryl's mind for the sake of threatening to kill her, but he literally took control of Sal with telekinesis, and empowered Volgin. Ocelot is also a lot more scared of TMOF than he is of Volgin, even after TMOF is defeated, in some audio logs, implying that he believes it's stronger. And yes, Volgin creating enormous tornadoes of flame when before all he could pull off was relatively close-range electricity, and having far higher durability, does indeed imply that he is stronger.

There's also the fact that the unfinished part of Sal was the control part, the weaponry was finished, and, considering that it's tech made by the same guy who made Peace Walker and ZEKE, but with more experience and technology, yes, I do think that is also a valid reasoning, thanks for bringing that up.

 

[Twellas]

If Mantis was stronger than Sal or TMOF he wouldn't have used them for the sake of combat, duh

except Mantis doesn't give a crap about killing Big Boss and clearly only acts out of personal fun, if he wanted to effectively take out Venom he would have mind-manipulated his ass and that would have been the end of it

empowered Volgin

Again, proof of Mantis boosting his subjects' power?

Ocelot is also a lot more scared of TMOF than he is of Volgin

Not really, in a cassette tape he states "I was always uncomfortable around him, thought i might get electrocuted just by standing nearby", he was always afraid of Volgin, and nothing implies he's more scared of TMOF, and even if it were, it would be different, TMOF is an immortal, immaterial being, of course it would be more scary than a normal human even with comparable AP

And yes, Volgin creating enormous tornadoes of flame when before all he could pull off was relatively close-range electricity, and having far higher durability, does indeed imply that he is stronger.

Won't even touch this, this is laughable, his tornadoes are barely building sized. We've come to the point where we say that a character is superior to another because "tornadoes are bigger than lightning bolts"?

There's also the fact that the unfinished part of Sal was the control part, the weaponry was finished, and, considering that it's tech made by the same guy who made Peace Walker and ZEKE, but with more experience and technology, yes

Except Sahelantrhopus was expressly made with the idea of it self destructing, which is why it's armor is made of Uranium, not even durable enough to block every type of tank shell, Huey states that Sah's armor can stop "most tank shells", not all of them, which means that it isn't even impervious to average human tech, now compare this to even just Peace Walker, whose inner armor can tank nukes and tell me if it looks like a linear progression to you.
It's a wholly different metal gear made for a completely different purpose that expressly goes against its statistics (Sah's tapes go in legth to explain how uranium is objectively worse than ceramics in almost every noteworthy aspect, but Huey had to use it because Sah' main purpose was self-destruction).

 

[Twellas]

I actually made some comments on the 8-B calculation with further analysis.

What would those be? I missed them

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My comments were in the blog. And my hands are tied ATM, but we have a real in which most heat, cold, and electricity feats use watts as our AP. Joules per second, unless the timeframe is less than one second.

 

[Chariot190]

>Yeah, and they do so directly, not via a statement. There is not ONE character who gets their tier by fighting someone who is STATED to be 8-B, not one

That's a blatant lie and you know it. You know how many characters have 8-B feats in Metal Gear? Ignoring the cyborgs. One, that's right, one single character yet, half the cast is 8-B. Why? Because they scale (and there's supporting tier 8 feats, but something like 8-C or High 8-C aint 8-B) whether it's directly or indirectly it doesnt't matter. Venom ultimately scales to Big Boss, thus he scales to whatever tier Big Boss is.

>this is... are you serious now? Are you genuinely comparing "breaking a bone" to "******* dying"? Are you seriously ignoring that the existence of the torture scene completely invalidates this? And don't even try and say that Volgin held beck, because he literally used all of his charge on Snake. Are you also going to ignore the fact that Snake ultimately beat him in a h2h combat? This is a laughable argument, Volgin CANNOT oneshot Big Boss, period, end of story.

Yes, the torture scene, where every time Volgin hit Snake, it broke his bones, and Volgin was doing it casually at that. And tanking electricity=/=Taking a punch, there's actually revisions about that soon so I wouldnt get to attached to that just in case it changes. Volgin's punches shatter Big Boss' bones like dry wall. If Volgin got Big Boss into a bear hug and then proceeded to go all out crush him, Big Boss would be crushed in the exact same way that Venom is. This isn't even a question, if Volgin can casually shatter his bones with normal punches, he can do far worse if he managed to literally bear hug him. And yes, Big Boss beat him in h2h. How's that change the fact Volgin can break Big Boss like a twig if given the chance and can casually crunch his bones? Because it doesn't, that just means Big Boss' skill can help close the gap (Because that's literally why).
Volgin can one shot Big Boss, hell, if he punched Big Boss in the head in the torture scene instead of some non lethal place like a few broken ribs, he'd probably die from that alone given said punches break his bones to begin with.

>Also, care tyo show proof of TMOF being stronger than MGS3 Volgin? Thanks

Dont even have to, it's blatantly obvious. Hell, TMOF can tank survive things far beyond what Volgin could, add some newton';s third law into that equasion then bam, proof he's above base Volgin. If youre asking for a statement saying TMOF is physically stronger then Volgin, that doesnt exist, but it doesnt need to because we see clear as day that he's stronger than him, and Ocelot also treats him as such. Not that it matters, TMOF could crush Big Boss the same way he does Venom because Volgin can crush Big Boss like TMOF does Venom. I dont think you understand the difference between a full force bear hug and casual strikes, if the latter can shatter the bones of someone, the former would crush them beyond repair.

>When the **** doe Miller EVER say that BB can't beat the Skulls? You are just taking the idea of "being a threat" to a ridiculous extent

When he says to get out of there, you cant beat those things? Also, again, you're acting like literally all that's said is "they're a threat", news flash, there's like five info dumps and expositions all saying how dangerous they are in regards to Big Boss' safety. Plus things like stating theyre beyond human limits physically and all this other shit.

>Where did you get this? Because Miller said that they "are a threat"? Also define "kicking their ass", you mean "oneshot"? So what?
Are we also just gonna forget that the Skulls HAVE ******* GUNS? And that ALONE makes them a threat?

No, I mean casually kick their ass. If Big Boss cant one shot them, then guess what? 8-B. He's high enough into the tier that something canonically being able to tank hits from him would warrant 8-B as their rating. And, ok, they have guns? So what? Their guns arent even the strongest attack, the machetes do much more damage then them, let alone the giant hunk of archea they can telekinetically toss at you with enough force to shatter it. And cool, so they have 8-B guns, you do realize that alone creates a 8-B scaling chain for them right?

>Did you read what i wrote? I said "MAINLY use machete", not ONLY use machete. The mist skulls don't use the machete as their main attack and neither do the snipers, only the rock ones do

I did read it yes. The Mist skulls actually do too, they use them in Episode. 6 Where the Bees sleep. The sniper ones use it too, in fact it's their only attack if you get close enough if memory serves. And then of course the Armor Unit is almost entirely machete. Point is, the SKULL's main method of attack is machete, they have guns sure, but it doesnt matter. All that matters is that they have a way to harm Big Boss, and if they can harm him, at all, in any way whatsoever, it'd create a scaling chain that puts them all and Venom at 8-B.

>Seriosuly, can you show me a single proof of TMOF being a super powered version of Volgin? And don't bring up stuff like him surviving bullets or rockets, because that shit is due to his physiology

Being able to survive getting run over by a Metal Gear? Also surviving rockets, bullets are due to his physiology, rockets though? Nah, he'd still take the kinetic force and the aftermath, he does so with zero physical damage in that regard. Also, >why is the immortal flaming version of a dude amped by a psychic master who has feats that pale his former self a superpowered version of his original body.
I dont even think that's worth the response. You HAVE played the game right? TMOF is above Volgin in basically every regard, rockets dont do anything other then make him flinch for a second or two, he has pyrokinesis, he's borderline immortal now, he has absorption, a new body, etc. Only downside is that water is a weakness (but water was a weakness before too, just not as big of one).

>I actually went and rewatched all of the Skulls encounters and no,

You watched? You mean you didnt pull out the game and check yourself? You do realize there's optional dialogue, not all dialogue regarding this is restricted to the encounters right? Hell, not all dialogue even shows up in the encounters that DO show up, sometime the conversations dont pop.

>Miller doesn't expressly think that Skulls>Big Boss.

Maybe, maybe not. What he does think though is that they're such a huge danger that they shouldn't be faced and instead run away. And he visibly expresses his shock if Venom beats them because, well, he didnt think he could. He aint floored by Venom beating them because he thinks they're just a nuisance, he's in awe because he didnt really think it was feasible because they're borderline monsters.

>The extent of what he says is "do not let them find us" in the first encounter, which is most likely due to Miller's state, Ocelot himself points this out as the main reason for them to escape, along with not knowing what the Skulls even are, i quote: "This is no time to fight, Boss, those things... aren't human, and you've got Miller to worry about on top of that", them being too strong isn't even alluded to by Ocelot

In the first encounter sure, not the rest though. And what do you mean by Millar's state? His state isnt effecting his mental capacity, he's not delusional, he's not making hyperboles, in fact he's astoundingly calm and collected for what he's been through, only thing that comes of it is he becomes a bitter jaded asshole. But it aint like he's talking hyperbolically or anything of the sort. Ocelot had never seen or heard of a SKULL before, why would he be worried about them? Ocelot gives credit where credit is due in some of tapes though, plus Quiet, after he learns of them and the fact they are kinda superpowered as ****.

>, who quite possibly knows Big Boss and his strength even better than Miller, ffs in the second encounter Ocelot actively encourages him to fight. After this the extent of Miller's comments is awe at the fact that he took the Skulls down, that's it, Miller never says that he doesn't think Big Boss can take them down or anything of the sort, all he says is stuff like "You took down the Skulls!? I can't believe it"; it's also worth noting that he makes this kind of remark EVERY TIME SNAKE KILLS THE SKULLS, even after Miller had already seen him kill the Mist Skulls in the first encounter, he says "You took down the Skulls? Boss... you really are a living legend" upon killing them in the second encounter; why would he say this despite knowing for a fact that Snake can actually beat them if, as you say, his surprise comes from him not thinking Big Boss would stand a chance AP-wise?

What? Miller definitely knows Big Boss' strength better then Ocelot, at least at that point in time, later on Ocelot probably does but not in the 70s/early 80s. Did you forget the entirety of Peace Walker, the years before that, and the year after? Miller was the last person to actively engage with Big Boss, he was apart of every single mission he partook in for years. Literally every single thing Big Boss had done over the course of like a decade, Miller knows and was in direct contact while 99% of them happened. Meanwhile Ocelot, well he sure as hell wasnt as closely connected to Big Boss as Miller was. Not even an argument really. If youre gonna say "Ocelot fought Naked Snake directly so he'd know how strong he is at that point", reminder that Millar and his whole unit fought Big Boss directly too. Both lost to him, both seen him in action, except Millar moreso by a few thousand times over. And yeah sure, he's dumbstruck every time because Big Boss defeating the SKULLS every time is a huge achievement in his eyes, it aint something he should just be able to do, yet he does, except Big Boss doesnt beat the SKULLS, Venom does. Miller thinks defeating the SKULLS are a huge wtf how in the shit moment each time, ignoring the fact the SKULLS get progressively more advanced and stronger each time so him being astounded for different units still works regardless. He aint shocked and begins sucking Venom off just because the SKULLS have guns or because theyre a bit more troubling then a normal soldier. "I cant believe it", is said for a reason.
Also you already confirmed yourself the SKULLS have 8-B guns, so yeah, AP wise theyre 8-B. Especially when the machetes do more damage then their guns, and Venom can overpower it. Or, if it's in regards to durability, well, hey that scales too.


>Why would he still be amazed after knowing FOR A FACT that Snake DID stand a chance? Might it be that they are immortal (they easily have immortality type 2, ffs, they don't even die when Snake kills them, they just go to the ground for like 30 seconds and then get up and walk away) superhuman soldiers unlike anything they'd ever seen? And let's not forget the context here, Miller hadn't seen Big Boss in years, and he is convinced that he had just woken up from a 9 years long coma, which would have debilitated him significantly, you can't tell me that Miller just forgot about all of this and expected Big Boss to be at his best

Different units, all of which get more advanced each encounter? To the point the armored unit is literally just the mist unit on roids (they look it too, theyre buff as **** and like a good head taller). And why wouldnt he be amazed? If someone jumps off a building and lands a perfect 10/10 and are fine, you'd be like wtf. And if they do it again youd still be like wtf how.
they have Type 2, sure, and? If they're so much weaker than Big Boss they wouldnt be a threat now would they? Cant be a threat to a dude you cant hurt, but you already admitted their guns can hurt him so that's that. And if their durability was so much less then Big Boss, Type 2 aint gonna do shit when he rips you limb to limb or blows your head clean off with either his raw strength and CQC or his guns, which is what would happen if Venom wasnt solidly 8-B, when he can basically do that himself, the difference you're suggesting here would allow Big Boss to straight up overcome their durability and immortality through raw girth, if Venom can do what he does yet isnt 8-B, when Big Boss is like 2.4x deep into it.
Also, Venom actually was fine, he went through physical therapy and got back into shape after waking up, there's a timeskip between Awakening and Phantom Limbs, forget how long exactly, two weeks or month I think? Miller knew Big Boss was in a coma and... That's it. There's so much Miller didnt know that he couldnt really judge much, he kinda went MIA and did in his own thing. Not to mention, that excuse only works the first time, not the several times after that, because Miller knew damn well Venom, or Big Boss at this point, was back in action. (In fact I'm pretty sure Miller even says at some point that those 9 years didnt slow him down one bit, which funnily enough means he's literally being fooled by Venom and he cant tell a difference between him and Peace Walker Era Big Boss).

>So much wrong with this. No, they DIDN'T take similar damage from Volgin, Naked tanked a beatdown, a torture scene in which he got blasted by all of his charge and then beat him in a fight all without dying, yes, he suffered damage, but nothing that impeded the progress of his mission, let alone permanent. Venom LITERALLY ******* DIES if TMOF grabs him. In what universe is this comparable?

They quite literally did. What, do you need gifs? Volgin can casually shatter Naked Snake's bones and beat him to a bloody pulp with a smile. TMOF can crush Venom. Does one result in a worse aftermath? Of course. But, one also takes more effort and is far above a simple punch, said punches that can break Snake's bones regardless or coat the floor with blood. If Volgin bear hugged Snake, he'd crush him just like Venom, this isnt a difficult concept to grasp Twellas. Nothing impeded Snake's mission because he can heal broken bones in shit within hours apparently (does he have regen for that actually? He canoically is forced to heal broken bones at least twice, I think three times actually), reminder he was brutalized so badly he pissed himself. He was covered in scorch marks, literally lost an eye due to Ocelot, and we can outright hear Volgin shatter his bones. Aint even the first time Snake canonically gets broken bones in that game either, breaks a few after The Boss tosses his ass into a river.
So yes, it's comparable, comparatively. You're only looking at the result of the attacks and saying they cant be comparable, but ignoring the attacks used. Taking in account casual punches shatter bones, would indeed imply, if not confirm, a full body bear hug would crush someone to death. It's quite comparable all things considered.

>No, it's likely "for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive", not when we have to guess or estimate; the problem is that you are treating some generic statements as definitive proof, which they aren't

I'm treating statements that say a character is on another character's level as proof. You're just denying it for some unknown reason. Plus like the other dozen supporting factors.

>You are extrapolating this, as i've said, Miller never outright says that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them, he merely expresses surprise as they are defeated, surprise as a result of him originally thinking that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them? Maybe, but it's extrapolation

No, I'm simply taking what he says at face value and with context, while also not outright ignoring the rest of what was said as well. Miller expressly voices his concern in Big Boss fighting them, he simply doesnt believe defeating them is feasible. Literally says, and I quote "I can't believe it Boss", when theyre defeated. And what? It's not extrapolation, it's common sense and occam's razer, He sure as hell aint saying he cant believe Big Boss, Venom in reality, defeated the SKULLS because he thought he could beat them or for some other trivial matter. At the end of the day, SKULLS can contend with Big Boss, whether it's via durability, strength or even guns, the end result is all the same.

>And again, forgetting that they go around with goddamn guns that would one-tap BB canonically

Cool, so Venom is 8-B then via scaling off their guns. As Metalic Archea makes them impervious to said 8-B guns, and Venom can shatter it.

>And Miller also hadn't seen BB in 9 years and thought he had spent all that time in coma.

The game takes place over the course of months and Miller didnt notice a single discrepancy in output or performance, hell, as said, at one point, Miller even praises him for being just as good as he was in the good ol days, not sure when exactly though, may just be an optional dialogue for doing good on a mission or task. This point is completely irrelevant, and falls apart past Mission 1 though after Miller and Venom become bros again. At least till Ocelot starts undermining him at every turn.

>Bad choice of wording on my par, what i actually meant to say was what i already mentioned before, Miller wouldn't be perfectly capable of gauging Big Boss' strength.

He's literally the best person on the planet at the time to gauge his strength, that's alive anyway. Like, if you're talking down to a literal exact number, sure, why not, knowing someone's strength down to the decimal points is impossible, but Miller still knows an extremely accurate approximation of what Big Boss can do and is capable of in basically every single physical attribute from AP, durability, lifting strength and speed. If Miller thinks the SKULLS are a big threat, is completely fooled by Venom's abilities, and so on. Needless to say, they scale between each other.

>G U N S . Yeah, he "doesn't literally just say "they're a threat" and call it a day", because he never even says "they are a threat" at all, he implies it, yes, but you are talking as if he spends all of his time saying "see those Skulls? They will ******* grind you into mincemeat" over the radio

Ignoring the machete does more damage. And ignoring 8-B bullets would still make them 8-B as theyre impervious to bullets and Venom can still harm them. And actually at one point he basically does say that. Also youre joking right? The guns clearly arent the issue here, the issue is that theyre superpowered soldiers that are vastly superhuman, not the fact they have a gun literally any random ass soldier has. They dont even use special guns, it's the same type a lot of the soldiers in Afgan use, the G44 assault rifle.

>Won't even comment on this.

Why? It's literally true, Like it or not, Volgin shattered Big Boss' bones with his punches. While smiling. Nothing I said there is wrong, it literally happens onscreen for all to see.

>He fooled a Miller who hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, thought he had spent all that time in coma and is half blind

Yeah, fooled him like a half year, Dont be ridiculous and act like fooling Big Boss' best friend for months is actually doable without being basically the same dude. Only way that would be possible is if Miller kinda just forgot everything.

>You've reached the point of just claiming that the Skulls can kill Big Boss as if it's a fact, when there are only statements barely inting at it

Yes. Because they can. Miller believes that the SKULLS are a huge threat, definition of threat.
"a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done."
Ergo, the SKULLS are, of course, able to inflict damage to Big Boss in his mind, but it's not just a "well that can hurt him I guess", contextually it's more along the lines of a life or death situation. So yes, the SKULLS can kill Big Boss, if given the chance. In action, they'd fail, but as we know it's something theyre capable of, it's a true statement. And i wouldnt say "barely hinting it", rather I'd say a basic understanding of the english language and contextual comprehension confirms it.

>... and? Does Sahelanthropus have some 8-B feat or scaling I'm overlooking, or are you saying that he's 8-B just due to being a Metal Gear?

I seriously hope to god you arent claiming the most advanced Metal Gear in history at that point in time isnt 8-B. Even the weakest Metal gear in history is 8-B.

>You do know that THAT thing happening is a huge low end for the verse, right? BB (and venom, for that matter) being put into a coma by what looks to be a barely 9-A explosion and an helicopter collision would completely discredit their 8-B rating at the core. You are justifying Venom's rating based on a feat that, if taken into account, would downgrade almost the entirety of the verse

Nope, that right there is a strawman. I'm not using the "feat" to gauge a tier or to scale them to it, I'm using it to say they're comparable. We're explicitly shown that Venom is comparable to Big Boss in that instant, explicitly so. The feat is a low-end, yes, but that has no bearing on the fact it explicitly shows Venom=Big Boss to some extent. It doesnt matter if the damage they took is a lowend when both of them took said damage from it and both got reduced to the same state. We use things like this? Oh well. It is what it is, Venom bodyblocked an explosion and debris that put Big Boss into a coma, and he lived to become Venom Snake. Ignoring the context and everything about the feat because "the feat is a lowend" doesnt work here. If we did that we'd have to downgrade shit like the Cocoon feat too because it can hurt Big Boss despite it being only 0.8 tons in AP, but we aint gonna throw out the half of the feat just because one facet of it is a lowend.


>1) You take Miller's words and conviction as gospel, completely ignoring the fact that he hadn't seen Big Boss in 9 years, he thought he had spent that time in coma and he had no way of knowing how strong the Skulls REALLY were, because he only encountered them once and got blitzed. You also take Miller's estimation of Big Boss' strength as if he were a DBZ character capable of sensing Ki or some shit, as if he 1, couldn't make a mistake and 2 he would be able to perfectly tell who BB is supposed to be able to beat and who not

I mean, I take his word over yours, that's for sure. Him not seeing Big Boss in 9 years is a moot point, doesnt effect anything at all, he doesnt instantly forget how strong his best friend and boss is after taking part in hundreds of missions as his colonel campbell. He thought he was in coma, he didnt know for certain, and that was never brought up as why. He wouldnt need to know how strong the SKULLS are down to the exact percentage, what he seen is enough for him to be like "yeah idk I dont see Big Boss defeating these things". I take Miller's estimation (it isnt even an estimation, stop trying to say Miller doesnt know how strong Big Boss is, he knows exactly what he's capable of) as truth, because it is. Miller knows exactly how strong Big Boss is, he fought the SKULLS for several minutes. From his few minute long fight he concluded that Big Boss would have trouble defeating them. Yet Venom can defeat them. He didnt get blitzed, that's a blatant lie you just made up, the fight lasted at the very least, several minutes, that isnt a blitz. Not to mention he knew what the SKULLS were capable of explicitly from Venom's following encounters, and treated them as if they were still a big issue each time and is awestruck time and time again when Venom pulls through. Who he thinks is Big Boss.

>You either completely ignore the fact that the Skulls have guns or undermine it by bringing up the fact that in-game he can tank them despite it being well established in canon that bullets kill 8-Bs as if they were normal people

Wouldnt matter dude, Venom can break through Metallic Archea, which is completely bullet proof, even rocket proof. All yuou've really done is say bullets are 8-B. Cool, in that case Venom>Archea>>>>>bullets. Though you should probably stop while you're ahead, you really dont want to argue the verse is canonically harmed by normal bullets and the like as a norm, at least, unless you want, Metal Gear 9-B as a verse. Because that's exactly what you'd get if you go down that route.

>You reach over Miller's simple amazement to the point where you interpret it as proof of the Skulls being able to kill Big Boss, not even admitting that it's non-definitive as proof

"I can't believe you beat those things Boss".

>You SOMEHOW try and compare Volgin breaking some of Snake's bones after a long torture scene to Venom instantly dying from getting grabbed by TMOF, completely ignoring the fact that Snake ended up beating Volgin in h2h combat and couldn't have possibly done so if Volgin was capable of one-shotting him, regardless of the fact that Volgin doesn't have a single attack that can one-shot him. And btw, I don't even think Volgin broke any of Naked's bones, because after the the torture scene, Snake's healing panel doesn't show any broken bones

Long? Dude Volgin just straight up out of nowhere begins hitting Snake and every hit he does breaks his bones. It aint like he stands there and hits Snake multiple times in the same spot to weaken the bone to the point it breaks, Volgin does it on a dime. Base Volgin casually can shatter Big Boss bones to the point it's audible. Snake beating Volgin in h2h doesn't matter, he's a fuckton more skilled, Volgin is still physically above him, not by a ludicrous amount as a gap past a certain point cant be mitigated by raw skill alone, but Volgin is still, at the end of the day, canonically and explicitly above Naked Snake in raw strength and can crush his bones with normal punches. And Volgin doesnt one shot Snake with basic punches, never said, what I did say is if Volgin managed to grab hold of Big Boss and proceed to do a full body bear hug to crush him, he'd do exactly that given his punches can outright knock Snake hard on his ass and make him spray blood and when tortured, break his bones casually.
yeah, could you imagine if the game forced you to deal with broken bones after all your equipment is taken away? Did you even think this through before you typed it.

>I am adverse to Venom getting a plain 8-B tier by scaling to the Skulls, but, if there was some other, actually sound scaling I forgot about, then I won't have a problem dropping the "likely", but as of now, I absolutely don't agree with the arguments brought to light

Good for you. I stand by everything I said. If anything you just added more fuel to the fire by hammering in that bullets are 8-B. If bullets are 8-B, and the Armored SKULLS can become completely impervious to bullets (the normal skulls are heavily resistant to bullets as well mind you), and Venom can smash through Archea with raw strength, said Archea that is completely 8-B bullet proof, well there you go. 8-B according to your own logic. Also Rocket Punch can smash through Archea, as well as when Venom smashes machetes through them, he can even kick their legs out and make the armored skulls reel in pain in some CQC animations. You mentioned earlier that the CQC animation for the SKULLS are all recycled, that isnt actually true, there's like two dozen animations, though a lot are very similar.

Another thing to note is TMOF briefly knocked Ishmael, Big Boss, on his ass.

To summarize.

Miller knows how strong Big Boss is, this is undeniable.
Miller thinks beating the SKULLS isnt feasible, and theyre a threat to Big Boss, how? It doesnt matter because it all comes back to 8-B, even if it's just through guns (which makes no sense in context, Miller sure as **** wasnt worried about the guns in any of those situations but rather the SKULLS themselves, other then the sniper unit).
Miller is always floored when Venom beats the SKULLS because he simply didnt think it doable, given he knows exactly how strong Big Boss is, this means he thinks Big Boss defeating them wasnt feasible.
Miller had a direct run in with the SKULLS that lasted for minutes, from that encounter, he gauged them to be monstrous and not something that can be easily contended with, if at all.
Miller couldnt tell the difference between Venom and Big Boss at all, even at one point pointing out how he's as good as he's always been at some point.
Venom scales above Frank too, in a weird ass roundabout way, but he does.
If bullets are 8-B, then Venom scales due to being able to damage Archea, which takes a shit ton of bullets to break, in the case of the Armored SKULLS, even the strongest weapon in the game bar DLC, cant break it in one hit.
Sahelntropus can smash trough Metalic Archea with raw strength as well, making him 8-B at least too (ignoring the fact he was the most advanced Metal Gear at the time, even specifically designed to be a combat oriented one).
Volgin in base can casually break Big Boss' bones and spray blood, TMOF with a bear hug can crush Venom, the latter may be far more lethal and aint exactly walked off, but that was because it was a full body bear hug, not just a simple punch. If someone who can smash your bones bear hugged you, you'd be crushed as well. What's this mean? It means that Venom being defeated by TMOF via bear hug crush aint a real counterpoint.
Venom explicitly took the brunt of something and shielded Big Boss from it, and Big Boss was out into a coma from it anyway, yet Venom lived too despite taking like 95% of the attack. Low-end feat? Of course, but the context of the feat isnt wrong just because it has small dick numbers instead of unga bunga numbers behind it.

Also the fact Solid Snake later on couldnt tell the difference between Venom and Big Boss (he never learned of venom, he thought it was Big Boss both times), so throw that into the pile of "Venom is such a good copy of Big Boss nobody can pick up on it except super AI and people who literally caused it".

There's way to much shit saying Venom scales to 8-B without a shadow of a doubt.
SKULLS having guns means shit overall, because if those guns are 8-B, then so is Archea, and if Archea is 8-B, so is Venom. This isnt hard to grasp, it's basic A>B>C scaling.
--------------
>Guess Meryl in MGS1 because 8-B when Mantis mind controlled her uh?

Literally used just her because Mantis is a psychopath (half the reason why he's called PSYCHO mantis) and as a hostage because he's a huge ****** at that point and literally just wants to watch the world burn.

>except Mantis doesn't give a crap about killing Big Boss and clearly only acts out of personal fun, if he wanted to effectively take out Venom he would have mind-manipulated his ass and that would have been the end of it

You're implying mind manipulating works. Also, I should make note, Big Boss can harm Psycho Mantis with his weapons, a single shot is enough to stun him and make him flee (Though it's hard to actually hit him because he does exactly what he does to Solid Snake in MGS1).

>Again, proof of Mantis boosting his subjects' power?

Mantis literally made the dude into a revitalized superhuman dude with pyrokinetic powers. It aint even a boost, it's a straight up evolution.

>Not really, in a cassette tape he states "I was always uncomfortable around him, thought i might get electrocuted just by standing nearby", he was always afraid of Volgin, and nothing implies he's more scared of TMOF, and even if it were, it would be different, TMOF is an immortal, immaterial being, of course it would be more scary than a normal human even with comparable AP

TMOF isnt immaterial. We know he's physically there, just that he's, well, on fire, the teleporting is more Mantis' doing. And "it would be different" implies, no, outright states, that, that is 100% why that's the reason. No offense, but you've done that a lot. It's a possibility, at best. Also you're ignoring the fact that why would ANYONE be afraid of TMOF if the TMOF couldnt kick their asses. You did that with the SKULLS too, someone having extra abilities means nothing in the context of harming someone if said abilities arent offensive. How is TMOF being almost immortal matter if he cant harm someone? Also, TMOF is a threat to Ocelot too early on, should clarify than too, most certainly not because Ocelot is "worried about Venom", he's worried for the both of them. If they have comparable AP than venom scales. Should also mention TMOF has some attacks that are identical to Volgin's, which aren't one shots.

>Won't even touch this, this is laughable, his tornadoes are barely building sized. We've come to the point where we say that a character is superior to another because "tornadoes are bigger than lightning bolts"?

No, but we can say it because he is. It's not even being superior to another character. it's being superior to himself when he was human. Which is so blatantly obvious that you arguing it isnt feels entirely like grasping at straws. Also, again, TMOF's awakening caused Big Boss and Ocelot to hasten their plan for a body double in the form of Venom, took about two weeks to pull off but they did it for a reason, the reason being TMOF was a threat to Big Boss' life and they knew he'd come for him, and soon at that.

>>Except Sahelantrhopus was expressly made with the idea of it self destructing, which is why it's armor is made of Uranium, not even durable enough to block every type of tank shell, Huey states that Sah's armor can stop "most tank shells", not all of them, which means that it isn't even impervious to average human tech, now compare this to even just Peace Walker, whose inner armor can tank nukes and tell me if it looks like a linear progression to you.
It's a wholly different metal gear made for a completely different purpose that expressly goes against its statistics (Sah's tapes go in legth to explain how uranium is objectively worse than ceramics in almost every noteworthy aspect, but Huey had to use it because Sah' main purpose was self-destruction).

8-B tank shells my dude according to you. Unless the average bullet > a tank in Metal Gear. Also, it was only the AI Pod that had nuclear defenses, and nothing Big Boss had could dent it, meanwhile moments before he could put peace Walker into disrepair. The AI Pod had to willingly open up for him after he unleashed his entire arsenal onto it. (And Sahel was meant to have an AI Pod too anyway). Sahel' AP and combat wise, is the strongest metal gear up that point, defensive wise, maybe not, but its AP matters more than its durability for literally every point made by everyone here in regards to scaling.

Edit: Also, fyi, gameplay feats count too. Cocoon, Peace Walker, ZEKE, the Ray dodge and more are all feats done in gameplay, we arent going to discredit Venom surviving attacks in gameplay otherwise we'd throw out half the verse.

There's really no point arguing this further. This can be left to majority of opinion if we scale venom flat out or not.

 

[Twellas]

Ah yeah, read it, and honestly, I’m kinda fine with High 8-C MG, it’s ridiculously consistent to the point where even the fodders have High 8-C feats, and as such we wouldn’t even need to debate Venom’s tier.
But I’m completely ignorant when it comes to calcs, I’ll let you guys do your magic

 

[Chariot190]

At this point, there's no point discussing it further. I stand by my stance. The decision can be reached through majority of opinion.
8-B but with clarified reasoning is my take. (Or whatever the **** Big Boss is).

Next is Instinctive Reactions I think. CQC reasoning doesnt work by itself in my opinion, and the sniper wolf thing is probably literally just dodging a bullet (plus it's debatably noncanon, the original he was hit by it in the shoulder) I'm fine with it, just for a different reason, the whole being able to perfectly fight and react while his mind is a literal blank slate against Mantis. That's more explicit, in fact it's basically just Ultra Instinct, it also doubles as making the CQC example more concrete.

Both can be used in conjunction to grant IR, but the sniper wolf example has to go, and CQC by itself is flimsy.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I very much agree with Chariot.

 

[Armorchompy]

Bit late, maybe, but it turns out you can take out TMOF with your stun arm.

(31 minutes in)

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, he's weak to lightning along with water. So I'm not sure how usable it is if it's one of his weaknesses.

Though, if not, hey, direct proof.

 

[Twellas]

I'm honestly not even gonna debate about that Volgin shit, I'm genuinely bumbfounded as to how you can even say that MGS3 Volgin can oneshot Snake, let's just seriously drop this because I'm going to get an aneurism, how can you even fathom that a character who Snake beat in hand to hand combat could oneshot him? And the arguments brought forward to "prove" that TMOF is stronger than Volgin are just... wow, really? Let's just drop this honestly

Either way, It doesn't matter, especially since the 8-B rating might disappear as a whole and then Venom would have feats backing his tier, so...

I'll make an argument about the IR as soon as I have time

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not against 8-B being dropped tbh, I just wanted to bring up that one thing since I didn't see it discussed.

I don't agree that Volgin one-shots Snake in MGS3 (though you can beat up someone who can, if you're skilled enough, and Volgin's definitely physically stronger than Snake)

But if we drop down to High 8-C, none of this matters

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Snake still had that Building level+ calculation on Naruto Forums iirc. And using Watts, Volgin's lightning is High 8-C, but that may be dubious to scale the the amount of blunt force trauma someone can withstand.

 

[Twellas]

the sniper wolf example has to go

just gonna quickly comment on this: Twin Snakes is canon, it's among the games shown in MGS4, and all of the MGS1 soundclips in that game are from Twin Snakes; the wiki itself takes it into account, there is no reason to just ignore this feat

The idea of Volgin being able to oneshot Snake is also made completely moot by how scared he is of The Boss, yeah, she's MASSIVELY more skilled, but why be afraid of someone you can oneshot?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Snake still had that Building level+ calculation on Naruto Forums iirc. And using Watts, Volgin's lightning is High 8-C, but that may be dubious to scale the the amount of blunt force trauma someone can withstand.

Sing as we no longer scale lightning and electricity to general durability its likely that cant be used either

 

[Twellas]

Snake still had that Building level+ calculation on Naruto Forums iirc. And using Watts, Volgin's lightning is High 8-C, but that may be dubious to scale the the amount of blunt force trauma someone can withstand.

There are so many High 8-C feats that Volgin's lightning feat won't even be needed anymore. From the top of my mind: Ocelot denting Outer Haven, Volgin busting Shag's armor, Mantis crashing a Jumbo plane, him burning hiw whole village down, him scaling to natural disasters, The Boss surviving her Spacecraft crashing into the ocean...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Would you be able to post links to those by any chance?

 

[Twellas]

Would you be able to post links to those by any chance?

I'll do it asap

 

[Armorchompy]

You can be scared of someone you can oneshot because you're aware they're more skilled than you and you probably wouldn't get that single hit in. But again, I don't agree that Volgin one-shots Naked Snake.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You both forgot to get me, and to propose a "possibly Low 7-C" for both Khasmin and Blade Wolf.
I agree with everything however!

 

[Twellas]

- Ocelot casually dents Outer Haven which had previously tanked artillery fire from the USS Missouri without even being scratched, Outer Haven is a modified version of Arsenal Gear, which in MGS2 did this without suffering any damage whatsoever

-Volgin casually punches a hole into Shagohod's armor, which had tanked this explosion without any damage

-The Soviet Jumbo pilot Jet in which Psycho Mantis was held RANDOMLY crashed next to where Volgin was being held

-In that very same tape we are told that the facility in which Volgin was being held CASUALLY burned down (it was Psycho Mantis)

-He burned down his whole village as a child

- He scales above the psychics who can cause natural disasters

-The Boss survived her spacecraft crashing into the ocean from orbit

I'm pretty sure there are more feats than these that I'm missing, but still, here are the ones I can think of off the top off my head

 

[Twellas]

You both forgot to get me, and to propose a "possibly Low 7-C" for both Khasmin and Blade Wolf.
I agree with everything however!

Yeah, "possibly Low 7-C" is fine for me, but there are more pressing matters at the moment.
Sorry for not contacting you, I had so many people to call that one slipped out of mi mind