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Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

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Solid, Liquid, Solidus, Big Boss, Venom. Raiden that one time, the two Snakes from AC!D but we don't talk about those. And idk, you could argue maybe Liquid Ocelot but that's a stretch.
That's a lot of Snakes.
 
Chariot190 said:
The reason better not be an argument out of disbelief, because there's very little opposing reason why he wouldn't be what he says. Multiple Mecha lifting feats, multiple feats of being uneffected by hundreds of tons of force, etc. There's to many feats of an extreme caliber to say his lifting strength isn't ridiculous. Supplemented by extremely casual lower end superhumans that the characters don't even flinch at or treat as even being a feat. There's only two anti-feats I can think of and both are kinda blatant PIS, and one isnt even a anti-feat because he ends up doing it anyway and the other he didn't even try. If you wanna argue this you best come with some damn good solid and consistent alternatives that exceed these feats in number and consistency.


Gonna be real with you chief, that snarky attitude is already putting me off.
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I mean, there is Snake explicitly going to be crushed underneath a Metal Gear and needing Gray Fox to stop it, which makes it very clear that these kind of feats shouldn't be considered as legitimate if it destroys a crucial plot point.

I won't turn this into an argument of behavior, but I wasn't being snarky in any sort. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, but one could also very easily interpret Shadow's comment as rude.
 
CRT: Kept ya waiting huh?

Doe Chariot makes the most sense on the points for this CRT. But bravo on the effort it took to make it
 
Nice thread You pretty good

You almost made me agree 100% (i pretty much will follow what is decided), i only disagree on Venom Snake being that low on skill.
Ocelot makes clear Venom Snake gained all Big Boss's experiences and knowledge (time stamp: 1:13) + being their best soldier (which can be said to be alot for Big Boss standards and likely higher compared to Special Forces).
While Liquid himself states the Genome Soldiers had the best genetics for killing and strategic thinking (its good to remember they didnt use Big Boss genetic code, but used what they did know about human genome based on big boss genes, time stamp: 5:08) and used for special forces. They still somewhat failed and Venom Snake would scale higher by reasons above.

While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

Venom lost to Rookie Solid likely because of being older and not being on his prime anymore. Venom still created a huge legacy of Big Boss meaning he still keep having new experiences, Rookie Snake would very well be better than venom on his prime, only if Solid already had experience.

Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ? (I wont really use act 3 cutscene where Ocelot beats Snake, since both on the end of the game fights equally, even on CQC, and its weird how Ocelot getting older didnt really affect much).
 
>While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

This is true, it was actually Snake who had the bad genes, but ended up being the Snake to surpass Big Boss himself. Gene's lay the foundation, but they don;t decide everything, Liquid Vs. solid proves that, in fact that's the whole point of MGS1.

>Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ?

Snake in MGS4 was the first time he ever actually used CQC after Big Boss betrayed his unit, in MG2 and MGS1/2, Solid refused to use CQC, effectively handicapping his best skill. In 4, he proceeds to use it because Big Boss' files came to light and everyone began using CQC, but it was all a cheap imitation, only Solid and Ocelot at the time had real CQC, the rest of the soldiers were using a bad copy of it, which is why Solid uses it in the first place in 4, there's no reason not to anymore and seeing all those cheap imitations makes him want to use the real thing that he learnt from Big Boss directly. Also Ocelot beat Solid in that cutscene because he was more adept at CQC, Solid refusing to use it for like 20 years while Liquid/Ocelot had zero issue abusing it would do that to ya. Though by the end I guess Solid got use to using it again or straight up improved enough with it to where he could fight Ocelot on equal ground and barely edge out a win.
 
I'll need to check this later once I read through my 50+ notifications. Half of the abilities seem fine, but skeptical on some of the others or sounds like its being mixed up with other abilities.
 
Chariot190 said:
>While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

This is true, it was actually Snake who had the bad genes, but ended up being the Snake to surpass Big Boss himself. Gene's lay the foundation, but they don;t decide everything, Liquid Vs. solid proves that, in fact that's the whole point of MGS1.

>Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ?

Snake in MGS4 was the first time he ever actually used CQC after Big Boss betrayed his unit, in MG2 and MGS1/2, Solid refused to use CQC, effectively handicapping his best skill. In 4, he proceeds to use it because Big Boss' files came to light and everyone began using CQC, but it was all a cheap imitation, only Solid and Ocelot at the time had real CQC, the rest of the soldiers were using a bad copy of it, which is why Solid uses it in the first place in 4, there's no reason not to anymore and seeing all those cheap imitations makes him want to use the real thing that he learnt from Big Boss directly. Also Ocelot beat Solid in that cutscene because he was more adept at CQC, Solid refusing to use it for like 20 years while Liquid/Ocelot had zero issue abusing it would do that to ya. Though by the end I guess Solid got use to using it again or straight up improved enough with it to where he could fight Ocelot on equal ground and barely edge out a win.
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Oh, if they lay the foundations i fine with (and i did forgot about this exactly plot point on genes in MGS1, thanks for explaning).

I have no ideia why i believed Snake used a better CQC, but Snake's CQC being rusty but still better than ''pale imitations'' (yes he say that on this codec) and later getting ass kicked by liquid makes a alot of sense.

Nice jojo avatar you got here
 
  • Death Manipulation sounds more like paralysis inducement or sleep inducement.
  • Perception Manipulation via Reflex mode how is that explained? Perception manipulation is like advanced illusion creation that messes with all senses
  • Sound manipulation looks more like Stealth Mastery
  • That does not sound like instinctive reactions or more like fast reaction speed. Instinctive reaction is like being able to fight in your sleep.
  • And it sounds more like he has resistance to Mind reading or a Telepathic barrier. I'm not sure if the Acausality statements are takin in context.
There may be a lot more stuff to go other, but these are at the top of my mind.
 
>Death Manipulation sounds more like paralysis inducement or sleep inducement.

Youre right, it's just snake taking a pill that induces a temporary death, we have things like that irl, in fact the thing Naked has is literally a real thing.

>Perception Manipulation via Reflex mode how is that explained? Perception manipulation is like advanced illusion creation that messes with all senses

Right on this too, Reflex Mode is just a gameplay mechanic to represent Big boss' insane lightning fast reflexes, it doesnt effect his or anyone else's perception, it's just things slowing down in comparison to him allowing him to react at insane speeds. Reflex Mode is canon though and actually a thing, its even scripted to happen at points even when turned off (against Sahelanthropus for example, when it leaps at you, reflex mode always activates, or against Quiet in a cutscene), but lore it's just him being super fast.

>Sound manipulation looks more like Stealth Mastery

If talking about the spirit camo, that one actually is sound manip, in the sense it outright removes the sound of the wearer, it completely removes any and all sound the wearer makes, as an ability of the camo itself, not via stealth, as this is stated in game in its description. Though, unlike the sneaking suit which does it via a particular material and insulation, this camo does it just because through supernatural esque means likely, given it comes from The Sorrow.

>That does not sound like instinctive reactions or more like fast reaction speed. Instinctive reaction is like being able to fight in your sleep.

I kinda agree here, Snake can react instinctively through muscle memory and the like and super fast, but not in the sense of something like Ultra Instinct.

>And it sounds more like he has resistance to Mind reading or a Telepathic barrier. I'm not sure if the Acausality statements are takin in context.

If talking about Psycho Mantis and his precog in regards to others. I don't think OP was trying to imply acausality in anyway but, you're half right. The Boss' statements about no past and future is basically saying Big Boss has no future, he's gonna be bound to eternal hell and the battlefield till the day he dies, she's speaking with flowery language, on purpose as well. But Mantis saying Solid doesnt have a future on the other hand is likely literal in context, as he's saying that to explain why he tried and failed to read his future, because he doesnt really have one set in stone so he cant see it.

Edit: The spirit camo also gives Big Boss more stamina if he physically drains the stamina of others (if he chokes someone out for example, it drains their stamina, but fills his back up). On top the aforementioned making it so others simply cant hear his movements (like walking and running) and removing his footprints.
 
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I suppose sound manipulation is fine if it's like a magical kind of force that nulls all his sounds. And oh yeah, precognition in general is being able to have knowledge of the future via various means though it's usually via visions. But, if Psycho Mantis' precognition simply comes through mind reading, I'm not sure how someone who just has visions or Cosmic awareness would be resisted by Snake though.
 
In regards to Mantis' precog, the meta reason being there's multiple endings to the game so Mantis couldn't just read the future as the action that decides the ending happens afterwards, he couldn't tell what happens with Solid and Meryl because in one ending, she ******* dies, but in the other, she and Solid ride out into the sunset. But in-universe he couldn't see his future because, well, because he simply hasn't had his set in stone yet, there's talk about carving your own future despite your heritage later on in the game and it being a thematic part of the story but that's mostly flowery language, even if it coincides with Mantis. Either way, Mantis cant read Solid's future with his precog, nothing more, nothing less. I think Solid having resistance to psychic precognition is fair, though I'm not 100% on applying that to literally every single Snake and clone due to sharing genetics, the reason Mantis failed has absolutely zero to do with genetics and DNA so it cant really be scaled to the rest, technically speaking, the reason he couldn't is a meta 4th wall break reason, though, that's kinda Mantis' whole schtick is being a 4th wall breaking meme character, at least in 1 and 4.
A bit complicated but what I'm trying to say should come across fine.

I guess in function, this would grant Solid the ability to resists precogs that only see the future on one timeline (if the precog can see multiple futures and possibilities it should be fine and work as intended) or 4th wall precog done by looking forward into a plot or something. Kinda specific but eh, it is what it is. It's a resistance, but one that can be overcome by nonlinear precog.
 
Hoooly shit, so much stuff to respond to, time zones are a bitch. I’ll try and respond to everything asap
 
idk, just precog talk I guess, that's the only thing of actual note that hasn't been fully clarified. Maybe some soldier venom gene talk.
 
Im personally fine with it, and giving Solid resistance to it. Though scaling it to literally anyone who has his DNA is sus, given the reason why Mantis couldn't read the future had nothing to do with genetics or physical traits. That ain't something that can be scaled without direct evidence for all that scale in question.
 
Same lol

I agree with the death pill talk, and with Venom being higher on the skill tier than he already is.

I'm not sure if this would change anything about it, but there's an item in TPP that allows you to use reflex mode at any time.

As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I'm also not too sure about gene scaling, a lot of the abilities of these characters don't really seem to be based on their genetics, such as, for example, the immunity to precog. There's also the fact that BB, SS and LS are all pretty different from each other, as far as clones go, especially Solid and Liquid, with that whole thing about the dominant and recessive genes.

(By the way, I did actually enjoy TPP, it's just kinda ran dry for me, since I'm mostly into the story and the bosses of these games and it's a bit lacking in both, I do think I'll have more fun playing it if I pause for a while rn so I might pick it up again in a while)
 
>As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I actually wrote up a reply to that but opted not to post it to prevent derailing. But to give a quick summary, The only way that REX going to crush Solid would be a anti-feat is if we use Twin Snake's version of that scene. In Solid 1 the claim falls apart and doesn't actually prove or imply anything against the lifting tier that is listed at this time.

>I'm mostly into the story and the bosses of these games

MgsV's story would probably have blown my dick off if I didn't know about the Venom twist and all the other neat little things like the usual Ocelot galaxy brain bullshit tendencies. Though, even if I went in blind, probably would have been tipped off by the random dude who somehow has more experience and skill then you, "Big Boss", somehow carrying your ass through that whole event, voiced by the same VA, like that's some pretty big red flags (plus the fact you dont know russian, even though Big Boss was fluent in it). Plus the revelation that Huey is actually a schizophrenic ******* psycopath opposed to the wholesome as **** Hal is a cool discrepancy, though that was kinda hinted at since like, MGS1, and confirmed outright in 2, but seeing how bad it really was was cool. The story though is serviceable, plus I like the cast. Not as good as the others though, but a chunk of the story is straight up missing and a lot of it is unfinished but that's more on Konami and time restraints but I still enjoy it quite a bit.

And yeah, I'm not keen on scaling precog resistance to basically the whole cast when the reason being has literally nothing to do with any shared traits. Plus the reason for Big Boss, The Boss' statements, are in reality, flowery language, talking about how Big Boss will be hellbound to fight for the rest of his life, only made worse if he kills her and becomes Big Boss, which he does. Also yeah, it's explicitly said that Venom was hypnotized to have experienced every single mission and event that Big Boss had went through on record and probably the MGS3 missions too given Ocelot was there first hand so he'd know about them. Basically VR training before VR training was a thing, and we all know how well that worked, which is to say, better then Solid gave it credit for even if it aint ideal.
 
Armorchompy said:
As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.
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I'd say that doesn't really matter, the issue isn't that of it being stronger and that of still being able to lift it, which he logically couldn't because he needed Gray Fox to save him.

These lifting feats for Big Boss only come from Peace Walker and no other game in the series, they are one-off feats that should be discarded as outliers.

Chariot190 said:
>As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I actually wrote up a reply to that but opted not to post it to prevent derailing. But to give a quick summary, The only way that REX going to crush Solid would be a anti-feat is if we use Twin Snake's version of that scene. In Solid 1 the claim falls apart and doesn't actually prove or imply anything against the lifting tier that is listed at this time.
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You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.
 
I think I'd have hated it, honestly, though I can't really know right now. Though the "I came to save you... and to save the legend, Big Boss!" also would have tipped me off. As for Huey, it makes sense, but I think it's kind of annoying that almost everyone introduced in Peace Walker is killed off like that, especially Strangelove who I quite liked. Skullface is also cool, and the fact that I'm not gonna get to fight him sure do be givin' me some phantom pain, genius kojumbo did it again

Also uh, worth mentioning, I'm not sure if I agree with Big Boss getting Venom Snake's equipment. It makes sense that he could have it, but IDK if that's enough. Also obviously he wouldn't have the abilities that come from Venom's prosthetic arm, speaking of which does Body Control apply to prosthetics? I'm not sure about that.
 
Also, Solid Snake physically beat up Fox before, so even if Fox is physically stronger, they can't be worlds apart.
 
>You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.

You're right, I haven't, but then again, neither have you. All you've said basically amounts to it being to high, and then proceeded to ignore the fact it happens not once, not twice, not even tree times, but four times. Supplemented by a metric **** ton of other blatant superhuman lifting feats. And your example of "REX was going to crush Solid and Solid needed Gray Fox to save him and it's a crucial plot point", is, put bluntly, false. The only way that would work is if we use the Twin Snakes over the original, and I'm 90% sure the wiki has MGS1 take precedence. And it's also most certainly not a crucial plot point (And if it was, and if was actually a thing and happening like you're implying, which it isn't or does, it'd be PIS, as it only existed to be a plot point and nothing more). It'd only be an outlier if it happened one single time, but it doesn't, it's actually, statistically speaking, the most common lifting feat in the verse. And saying something is egregiously, ie, bad and misleading just because you disagree is a bad habit to get into. But why did I opt not to respond? Because nothing in this thread or the OP is about the lifting strength of the characters, ergo bringing it up is derailment, you're an admin so you should be aware that derailing threads with off topic points is frowned upon, you're free to make your own CRT after this one is done discussing that, but this thread isn't the place for it as the only lifting feat discussion here is about the Advanced Cyborgs, not the snakes and cast.
 
>speaking of which does Body Control apply to prosthetics?

I'm pretty sure it's talking about Rocket Punch (and maybe the spinning stun arm). It's technically not body control, as it aint really apart of his body, but at the same time, it is? This one is entirely based on semantics and interpretation on if you do or do not consider the arm to be apart of Venom. I'm fine with Rocket Punch being considered body control to an extent, as that's usually what we consider that type of thing as for androids and robots like Android 16 or Megaman.

>I'm not sure if I agree with Big Boss getting Venom Snake's equipment.

This one is weird. I think a better word would be, that Big Boss has access to all of it, because he obviously does. Other than the arm, but that's more along the lines of he simply cant use it. Now if he would use it or have it on him at all times? Well that's another question. This should be fine if he has prep time (speaking of which, Big Boss should probably get prep time, given the fact he uh, preps for missions and changes his loudouts accordingly, and with some prep can even pull off convoluted plans to help further his goals). But obviously Venom's shit aint something he has on hand at all times, it's just something he has access to by virtue of literally owning it all, in the same vain how he has access to ZEKE if he really wanted. I think the best solution would be to add an optional equipment tab for Big Boss Post mgsv, with a link to Venom's equipment, as well as Big Boss' ZEKE for 1970's Big Boss. And then OP's of future threads can decide if they wanna grant him access to his optional timeframe specific weaponary but strictly keep it all optional and not within his standard as apart his default arsenal.
 
Armorchompy said:
Also, Solid Snake physically beat up Fox before, so even if Fox is physically stronger, they can't be worlds apart.
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LS =/= AP.

Chariot190 said:
>You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.

You're right, I haven't, but then again, neither have you. All you've said basically amounts to it being to high, and then proceeded to ignore the fact it happens not once, not twice, not even tree times, but four times. Supplemented by a metric **** ton of other blatant superhuman lifting feats. And your example of "REX was going to crush Solid and Solid needed Gray Fox to save him and it's a crucial plot point", is, put bluntly, false. The only way that would work is if we use the Twin Snakes over the original, and I'm 90% sure the wiki has MGS1 take precedence. And it's also most certainly not a crucial plot point (And if it was, and if was actually a thing and happening like you're implying, which it isn't or does, it'd be PIS, as it only existed to be a plot point and nothing more). It'd only be an outlier if it happened one single time, but it doesn't, it's actually, statistically speaking, the most common lifting feat in the verse. And saying something is egregiously, ie, bad and misleading just because you disagree is a bad habit to get into. But why did I opt not to respond? Because nothing in this thread or the OP is about the lifting strength of the characters, ergo bringing it up is derailment, you're an admin so you should be aware that derailing threads with off topic points is frowned upon, you're free to make your own CRT after this one is done discussing that, but this thread isn't the place for it as the only lifting feat discussion here is about the Advanced Cyborgs, not the snakes and cast.
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There's Big Boss lifting Cocoon and the Metal Gear leg, yes, but those are clear outliers for human level characters in Metal Gear if it was considered a task for someone like Gray Fox, who is cybernetically enhanced.

You argument is one of canon sure but it doesn't actually tackle what I'm saying, if it was false it wouldn't be there.

I disagree with the idea that my choice of words was misleading, what could be considered misleading is you saying "metric **** ton of blatant superhuman lifting feats" but not specifying for who, that is misleading.

I was under the impression that Metal Gear stuff could be discussed here because this is quite a large CRT and thought it had room to cover more information, my intention was never to derail but I thought it was important thing to comment about.

I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.
 
There's Big Boss lifting Cocoon and the Metal Gear leg, yes, but those are clear outliers for human level characters in Metal Gear if it was considered a task for someone like Gray Fox, who is cybernetically enhanced.

You do know what outlier means yes? It's only an outlier if it happens a single time, or such a minimal amount of times comparatively to a vast amount of other feats that required maximum exertion. But, that isn't the case, it's the most common feat in the verse in regards to lifting and the only anti feats that actually exist, as said are 1. PIS, or 2. Wasnt even an attempt. Which isnt enough to invalidate the other higher showings ranging from things like Class 10-50, K and M, and the example you're giving isnt either. It, by definition, can't be an outlier if we go by raw numbers. And Gray Fox may be cybernetically enhanced, but he was physically bested by Solid in direct hand to hand combat. Ergo, Solid and Gray aren't really all that far apart. You said AP=/=LS, and that's true, but that doesn't mean there isn't a direct correlation, saying AP and Lifting Strength arent the same is true, but saying AP and LS based on physical aptitude with a direct corroboration between two not existing is a lie. This is a verse where such arbitrary discrepancies don't exist, if two characters are physically on par, that means they're physically on par in all accounts, just not one arbitrary attribute. If Gray Fox and Solid are physically about the same, they're physically about the same on all accounts, just not one specific factor, there's zero reason to assume that to be the case, other than you simply wanting it to be, it's not actually supported in verse by any statements, and the scene you're talking about doesn't actually happen the way you're suggesting.

>You argument is one of canon sure but it doesn't actually tackle what I'm saying, if it was false it wouldn't be there.

Canon actually does matter greatly, if it was noncanon only, then it's not relevant, we dont use noncanon information or scenes to scale to canon, as rule, for all verses. Yes, because it isnt in there, only in Twin Snakes was it shown that Solid was actually in danger of being crushed, the original? Literally nothing actually happened, Solid never even got the chance to do anything or show if he could or couldn't because Gray Fox hopped in before Rex even reached him, actually, he was like a good 15ft away still And don't say "if it was false it wouldnt be there", in the same vain I can say all of the high end lifting feats cant be false otherwise they wouldnt be there. You see how that as a basis of an argument doesn't function? It goes both ways.

>I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.

>I disagree with the idea that my choice of words was misleading, what could be considered misleading is you saying "metric **** ton of blatant superhuman lifting feats" but not specifying for who, that is misleading.

I didn't say that, you said the feat was egregiously higher than what it should be. The definition of that word is misleading and false, I wasnt saying you're being misleading, but was referring to the definition of the word you used. And what? How is me saying that there's a metric fuckton of superhuman feats misleading when there is? And you saying I didn't specify for who is a blatant lie on your part, I gave several examples earlier in the thread, and even said what a few were and who they were done by, like Solid or Volgin. No offense, but you're literally saying "no u", and saying I failed to do something when I actually had done so earlier. I'd appreciate it if you didn't spread blatant falsehoods like that, or, if you didn't see me saying that, actually read the thread.

>I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.

I'm not shunning, I'm straight up telling you to not derail the thread with unrelated topics to the proposed changes, you know how this works, you just said so yourself, you're free to make a thread detailing this specifically, but this thread isn't the place for it. You just said you know the rules, so please have some decency and not derail. To give an example, one doesnt go into a Superman ability CRT and then try and derail the thread into a CRT for his speed, same applies here, keep it relevant to the changes being discussed, there's enough here already to go over as is.
 
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Armorchompy said:
I don't disagree, Chariot, you're being a bit aggressive.
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I wouldn't say aggressive, there's no insulting or demeaning going on here, in fact I'm vehemently opposed to that sort of behavior in threads, definitely not my intention, but I am being blunt and speaking matter of factly, If it comes off as aggressive that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to twist my words. Saying things bluntly without risk of misinterpretation is usually the best way to go about things.
 
It happens in a singular game in the series and never again, so yes, it would be considered an outlier,

If we didn't accept Twin Snakes whatsoever Gray Fox would not have feats from it on his profile.

The games tend to make clear how much stronger someone cybernetically enhanced is compared to people like Snake, it's why Raiden stopped Outer Haven and not him. To suggest Snake scales to Gray Fox in LS when they never actually contended in that fashion directly isn't correct.

You didn't post any lifting feat involving Volgin and I already commented on the Peace Walker feats, if I comment on Peace Walker making no sense you cannot affirm your claims that they are okay with more feats from the same game, I'm not lying about anything you said and would discourage you saying so.

EDIT: Now, I'll stop commenting on this directly and save it for the future thread because I now know we don't want to discuss it here.
 
Gary Fox' body is a lot weaker than Raiden's, even the MGS4 one. Like, it's comparable to the random enemies you mow down, except a bit worse.

EDIT: I meant to say Gray Fox, but **** it, his name is now Gary
 
>It happens in a singular game in the series and never again, so yes, it would be considered an outlier,

3 times in the same game actually, it isnt a stand alone feat, also an oulier needs to be consistently contradicted, and only be treated as such as a last resort, as stated by the wiki itself, not really the case here. Not how outliers work, just because it only happens in one game doesnt mean it's an outlier, when it happens multiple times in that game (and others akin to it happen in other games).

>The games tend to make clear how much stronger someone cybernetically enhanced is compared to people like Snake, it's why Raiden stopped Outer Haven and not him. To suggest Snake scales to Gray Fox in LS when they never actually contended in that fashion directly isn't correct.

Yes, Raiden is hilariously above Big Boss and Solid Snake in strength, in every single regard though, AP, LS, durability, even speed, Gray Fox though? Not really. Raiden's Lifting strength is literally 10000x that of what a peak Solid and Snake can do and Outer Haven is close to 10000 of times above Big Boss' feats (and even Gray Fox's, that's right, Raiden's dying feat is close to ten thousand times that of what Gray Fox did, making it clear that Raiden and Gray Fox aren't comparable) Raiden needed to save Snake from Outer Haven, because Outer Haven is vastly above his limit and he was literally dying, and Raiden had the ability to do this, because his body is far more advanced then the old exoskeleton Gray Fox (and mind you, Gray Fox was a exoskeleton, Raiden was a full on robot at that point with tech that humiliates Gray Fox). You're saying because a drastically more advanced and stronger Cyborg being stronger than Snake means Gray Fox is too, but that's untrue, because he's thousands of times stronger than Gray Fox as well and Gray Fox and Snake were explicitly shown to be on par in physical prowess with zero weapons and outside interference.

>You didn't post any lifting feat involving Volgin

Volgin swinging around a Davy Crocket like a wet tissue with one hand, I mentioned that above. As well as The Boss doing it too, not a superhigh feat, but it makes it explicit these characters are hilariously above human standards when it comes to lifting things to the point Olympian class feats are treated as literally nothing.

>if I comment on Peace Walker making no sense you cannot affirm your claims that they are okay with more feats from the same game, I'm not lying about anything you said and would discourage you saying so.

Who said anything about the feats being from Peace Walker? The only notable LS feats in Peace Walker are the 3 mecha benches, though, that's the only feats in that game, and they're all functionally the same, happening mid, late and end game respectively, all across. The other feat I mentioned was 4, with an Old ass Snake who's explicitly far weaker than he was his prime being able to handle weapons that have tank like recoil without budging an inch. Which if memory serves, is something like a Class 50+ feat, done by Snake at his weakest with no effort. You said I didn't give any other feats and specified who they belonged too, but that's false, so I stand by my statement, maybe you missed when I said but, that if that's the case, simply don't make claims with absolute certainty like that.

>Now, I'll stop commenting on this directly and save it for the future thread because I now know we don't want to discuss it here.

That'd be best, or at the very least, save it for when the rest of the thread gets resolved first.
 
>In regards to the radiation resistance, it should be mentioned it's not a complete one, it renders them infertile, though other than that it did nothing at all, Big Boss even points out how most who were there with him are dying or already killed.

We are considering post-nuclear test Snake, who is shown to be completely unscathed by radiations multiple times. The fact that the first time he got hit by radiations he was rendered infertile doesn't change the fact that as of the Virtuous mission he is completely uneffected by them

>That's still not Extrasensory Perception, it's still just a different category of enhanced senses, which is super broad and can cover quite literally hundreds of types of perceptions and the like

Fine, I underestimated the extent of Enhanced senses as an ability

>Nobody else in that room could see him, unless the sorrow can selectively choose exactly who can and cant see him at the same time, it should warrant EP, plus Solid could see Mantis' ghost as well

Yeah fine

>Because he had to break out of it, he was effected, just not for long, it's a resistance, but not a full one, a minor one, he could break out, but not before being effected, hence why it should be minor, or limited, you pick, either way

The problem with Raiden's feat is that it's not just plain Paralysis he resisted, it was also hypnosis. I honestly don't see the need to add "minor" to this resistance, as manay characters such as Goku get a full resistance by initially being effected and then breaking out, it would just be a lower-tier plain resistance, "minor" would imply that it's situational, or something like that.
I agree with the Invulnerability stuff

>It wouldn't, and one sentence later the Deconstruction page says "It differs from traditional Matter Manipulation or other abilities like them by only allowing the user to break things down, not manipulate them.". Deconstruction is a subset of matter manipulation, Deconstruction is what you see Thanos do in the movie (even the main example used), Cream from JoJo when it eats something or Beerus from DBZ early on when the material around him start to get reduced to basic components like dust, being able to take a gun apart quickly isn't deconstruction, it's literally just her disassembling it, real life soldiers are trained to learn that as well.

Agree, tho i disagree with the idea that if a real human being can acquire it then it can't be an ability, but that's beside the point.

>Soliton Rader isn't though, it's just another example of enhanced senses, of course an extremely high end version that creates a map of the area and a target's location via electromagnetic waves and biological reactions.

But in the end, it's still Life Detection. The means through which it's achieved aren't really relevant, especially when the ability page lists stuff like "matter signatures", which could easily be considered to be the Soliton's reading of the target's biological reactions. Snake also doesn't have all the abilities that make up the Soliton, so putting those on his profile would require some tedious explaining.

>What? I didn't disagree with anything proposed in that section, and when I was talking about Meta reasoning, I was referring to him having no future and Mantis not being able to see the future with him and Meryl being a tongue and check reference to alternate endings

yeah yeah i know you agreed, i was just clarifying, because many still think that the controller thing is canon

>I agreed with the proposal in the end. Though Spooky brought up a better alternative so I'd rather we go with that

But Electricity Manipulation is not an alternative, it's just another thing that needs to be added. And I mean, you LITERALLY see Volgin get engulfed in flames and not suffer a single burn after the lightning bolt, if this isn't Heat Resistance then i don't know what it is. It's also worth noting that Volgin only really started to suffer after the bullets started going off, so it's not even entirely true that the lightning bolt knocked him out

>I was thinking maybe teleportation? Or telekinsis+phasing.

But he still would have had to separate the vocal cord from the parasite, which is impossible on a biological level since they are almost one in the same. Also, how would teleport work in this case? Would it be like "i target the parasite" despite PM not possibly knowing anything about the parasite? It's just complex tbh

>It isn't really fair to say that Venom being weaker then the man on fire means he's guaranteed vastly weaker than Big Boss, as Big Boss could just as well be weaker too

I never said this, what I did was debunk the idea presented on his profile that Venom scales to TMOF, that's all, I'm not saying that him being weaker automatically makes him far weaker than Big Boss, what I'm saying is that Venom is clearly shown to be nowhere near comparable to TMOF unlike what his profile states. Is TMOF also stronger than Big Boss? Possibly, but that's beside the point. Also, if Ocelot actually knew the whole thing and was just faking it, as he says in the truth tapes, then what he though "on the surface" is irrelevant, because it was informed by his subconscious. Either way, Venom never even fought Ocelot.
I NEVER said that VS would be lower than Big Boss tho. What I said is that we don't have enough proof to DEFINITIVELY say that he's equal to him, hence the "likely" rating.

>We need far more evidence than possibly it being that big. All we have to go on is that there's a huge gap between MGS4 and MGR Raiden, but a gap of like 300x? That needs sufficient evidence to suggest that, at least doesn't work here because we basically have to assume the gap is 300x when that's just conjecture

You are putting way too high of a standard for "At least". The wiki itself defines the usage of "At least" as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate", what you are referring to is "likely". I we had conclusive proof of Raiden's custom body being 300x his MGS4 one, then we wouldn't put "at least", we'd just give him T, don't you think? I don't think anyone would argue that the MGS4 feat constitutes a lower cap compared to MGR

>That isn't a difference in functionality, that's a different in intent. The Marine was intended to kill REX copies, the Arsenal ones were intended to protect Arsenal Gear. That's true, but it's never actually said they differ in statistics at all, that's an extrapolation based on what they were going to be used for, not something that was actually said

It's not just a difference in intent, the two models are literally physically different. It wasn't actually said, yes, but the deal is that MGS2 RAY's rating would already be a "likely" or "possibly", because it's just a statement and could very well be referring to outmaneuvering and not overpowering or something like that, if we put on top of this the fact that now RAY's purpose isn't even to kill MGs anymore, what are we left with? Is the fact that a wholly different model, made with a completely different purpose was stated to be capable of killing REX enough to warrant a "likely", or even just a "possibly? "possibly" we could agree on, but "likely" is just not realistic tbh

>In MGS4 Snake is piloting it, and actively reacting to Ray and his attacks, we see this on screen and Ocelot the same with him reacting and fighting Rex while in manual control. It isn't entirely computer automated, some parts may be, that's true, but it's not to the extent you're suggesting to where they wouldn't scale at all

Actually we see that the Mak III is plugged into REX, allowing Otacon to remotely control REX along with Snake, which is how Snake managed to pilot it despite not possibly knowing how to do it (and you can't even say that he would have experience, since from MGS2 we know that he can't drive helicopters). So Snake definitely doesn't scale to REX' movement, because along with the automation, he also had remote help (as to how Otacon would be able to pilot REX to that level of speed, i have no clue, but we could say that it was due to the Mk III, which is technically a Metal Gear itself an MIGHT be fast enough, I have no idea). What I'm saying is that the automation could very well cover the gap between their Massively Hypersonic reactions and the Rel+ laser, this would solve every scaling problem, because let's be honest, this feat would be an outlier if we applied it to the Snakes and Ocelot. And as I said previously, Ocelot's RAY has the same legs as the unmanned Units from MGS2, so it's highly likely that Ocelot integrated part of the unmanned "algorithm" or whatever it is that allowed those units to move autonomously.
TL;DR: Snake was aided by both the MKIII and Otacon while piloting the REX, so it doesn't scale to him; Ocelot's RAY has piece of the unmanned model on it, which implies that Ocelot modified it to have some sort of unmanned function; RAY's automated functions can cover the gap between Ocelot's Massively Hypersonic reactions and the laser

>Soldier Genes help, but Genes aren't everything, that was kinda the theme of MGS1 actually. Take Solid for example, he's actually the weakest clone, yet, somehow, he's the best, even beating his superior in Liquid in direct hand to hand. Or Raiden defeating Solidus, despite Raiden having no genes himself, and that's not even getting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes
etting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes

Solid was a lot more well trained than Liquid tho, having been trained by Big Boss, and Liquid being convinced of being the inferior clone must have played a part. Raiden is the exception that proves the rule, and Ocelot is quite possibly the only character to be more genetically gifted than Snake. Other than that, as I said, I'm neutral on Venom scaling above the Genome soldiers, if others agree, i can get on board.

>Ok so he decides not to slam them hard enough to knock them out. CQC isn't status effect inducement, it is quite literally just hitting someone hard enough to stun them, that isn't an ability

agree
 
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Armorchompy said:
There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?

I was thinking of playing the MG games after V, but I'm really not enjoying it so I might just skip it. Is it your first time playing them?

Yeah I don't think it's worth a change in class, since it gets kinda nebulous that way.
Click to expand...
But the point is that VS cannot tank attacks from TMOF
 
The idea of characters in MG being portrayed as only average or peak humans is absolutely hilarious to me, like, did you miss the part where The Boss and Volgin bring around the 300kgs Davy Crocket like it's a random bag? Or did you miss the part where Volgin punches a hole into the Shagohood, which survived the destruction of half of the base unscathed? Or did you miss the part where Ocelot dents Outer Heaven, which demolished multiple buildings and tanked artillery fire without even flinching? Did you miss the part where Psycho Mantis has at least 3 tier 8 feats and one could go up to tier 6?

And it's also very much clear that Gray Fox is not much stronger than Snake, be it AP or LS
 
And about the instinctive reactions, in MGS4 Snake's body naturally uses CQC despite him actively not wanting to, this isn't a matter of him reacting fast, it's a matter of his body literally going on its own to assure hi survival regardless of his conscious choices. If your own body doing something automatically despite your wishes doesn't categorize as instinctive reactions then I don't know what does.
And you could say that it's just muscle memory, but so what? If his muscle memory leads to something like this, why not categorize it as IR? Muscle memory is merely the means through which he gets the ability. This isn't even about him moving his arm or anything of the sort, it's literally a whole ass martial art that his body autonomously uses. Of course it's not the same as Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't have to be
 
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And about the Precog thing: I'm not scaling to genes when I give it to Liquid, but due to Psycho Mantis' statement of the FOXHOUND being like Snake, and I quote: "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment". Psycho Mantis clearly states here that the FOXHOUND share the same characteristic as Snake, and it also makes sense, because if Mantis could read the future of the FOXHOUND members, he would have known that Ocelot was going to kill the DARPA chief intentionally etc (and don't say that it wouldn't be in character for him to read his team mates' future, because he' 100% an asshole and would do it)
 
Great job on such a massive effort!
OP looks good to me at first glance, but I'm not enough of an expert to comment on the controversial stuff.
 
Jesus christ, timezones are evil, I'll end up beinng ignored all throughout the day and then receive an avalanche of comments during the night
 
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