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Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"
- Thread starter Twellas
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Ah, I guess being knowledgeable on something doesn't necessarily mean caring about its state in the wiki. Anyway, what really matters is they're aware of this CRT's existance, wouldn't want them coming in confused after all's concluded.
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- #123
Well, tbf, this CRT was basically a short novel, not everyone is going to have the time to analyze every part of it and also make lengthy arguments about them, but it is true that they have some degree of responsibility towards the verse by virtue of being on the Knowledgeable Members list
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I was thinking more about their authority and less their responsibility- It would be pretty annoying if someone objected to the CRT after it was all done
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It's best if we just do this one thing at a time now. Writing up books of a posts gets tiresome.
Focus on Soliton Radar and EP first, though I've said all I have to say about that already. I vehemently disagree.
>Wait, now that I think of it, there are almost no Knowledgeable Members debating here besides me, would be great if some joined
Literally the only game I havent played fully is Port OP's. I even read a few of the novels, maybe not a few months ago but now I certainly consider myself one.
Focus on Soliton Radar and EP first, though I've said all I have to say about that already. I vehemently disagree.
>Wait, now that I think of it, there are almost no Knowledgeable Members debating here besides me, would be great if some joined
Literally the only game I havent played fully is Port OP's. I even read a few of the novels, maybe not a few months ago but now I certainly consider myself one.
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I should probably add myself finally. The wiki was on lockdown when I started so there wasnt actually a chance, now that I got most under my belt 100%, got that MGSV Platinum last night, should probably do so. Will probably start Port Ops sometime this week. (Given I think we use that as canon? Kojima did say it was integral to MGS4's plot and if it wasnt canon MGS4 would have to be changed as well, plus it was mentioned in both Peace Walker, though with spite, and in 4 explicitly).
Which would probably lead to some Null, ie, Frank, scaling for Rookie Solid but that's beside the point.
Which would probably lead to some Null, ie, Frank, scaling for Rookie Solid but that's beside the point.
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I'm only going to answer to the points regarding Part 1, so that we can clarify these and THEN move on to the others, which will make everything much more precise.
It's not even a matter of "may have killed him", Volgin is basically fine right after the lightning (yeah, he's not really fine, but he had also just spent the last 15 minutes getting shot at by an RPG, so it's understandable that he would already be mostly ****** up), he only starts to display pain when the bullets go off.
There's literally no reference to ESP requiring supernatural methods on its profile, none whatsoever. If it was supernatural "as a concept", and it was ONLY obtainable via supernatural means, it would be at least mentioned somewhere in the page, don't you think? And besides, EMP isn't listed in Enhanced senses, there's nothing about "sensing biological reactions" in Enhanced Senses. What we know for a fact is that the Soliton uses Matter Signature (it literally recognizes a particular type of matter due to its processes) to Detect Life (self explanatory). The fact that it uses EMP to do the Matter Signature doesn't change the fact that 1- "electromagnetic wave detection" is NOT mentioned in the Enhanced Senses page 2- It literally functions just like ESP, so even if we say that EMPs are considered Enhanced Senses (they are not) we would still have an ability that functions exactly like ESP but is ES. And this is ignoring the fact that the Soliton can pick up stuff like Field of View of the enemy, which doesn't even remotely corelate to anything under Enhanced Senses. now, the Soliton would ALSO grant Enhanced Senses due to being able to relay the target's emotions (if they are suspicious or aware of Snake etc).
No need to be pissy about the links, i just posted them to cut you some slack. The problem here is that in the moment when the Lightning discharged its heat on Volgin, he doesn't suffer any burns, which means that he tanked the lightning's heat without suffering heat-related damage, the serious charring only happens after the bullets start going off, before that, there's no blackening other than the one with was already present before.
It's not even a matter of "may have killed him", Volgin is basically fine right after the lightning (yeah, he's not really fine, but he had also just spent the last 15 minutes getting shot at by an RPG, so it's understandable that he would already be mostly ****** up), he only starts to display pain when the bullets go off.
being "fried" by lightning is so vague it hurts, Snake's joke is clearly about the irony of a guy who has electicity powers being (indirectly) done in by a lightning. Anyhow, I take the actual canon over the statements, and the actual canon shows that Volgin didn't suffer any burns right after the lightning struck him, which means that he tanked the heat. This discussion isn't that important tbh, since we agree that he should get Resistance to high temperatures but we just disagree on its level.
No, it's OBJECTIVELY not the same thing, maybe in concept, but that's just because you are literally describing what Instinctive Reactions is as an ability. I don't think I need to tell you that grabbing a glass is SLIGHTLY less impressive than automatically using a martial art.
Do I really need to explain to you that the ACTUAL reason why Snake didn't use CQC before 4 is due to CQC not even existing in Kojima's mind? There was CQB, yes, but it's nowhere near the same thing, of course we don't see Snake use it before 4. The fact is that there is no "CQC punch" and no "CQC throw", which is also why people like Ocelot and Volgin think that CQC is simply Judo, because its throws aren't made up, they aren't new, they are just Judo throws, hell, in the video I linked in the OP the guy straight up names Snake's throws and they are all from existing martial arts. The point about Snake "only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it" is made completely moot by the fact that he also used it against Ocelot when he attacked him, unless you wanna say that Ocelot's CQC was a pale imitation? The truth of the matter is much simpler, and you simply reading way too much into what Snake says: What Snake tells Otacon can be boiled down to "when i get attacked with CQC my body instinctively uses CQC (due to the imprinting from training, he doesn't say it but this is most likely the origin of the Instinctive Reactions)", this is further driven home by Otacon saying "Ah, I get it. An eye for an eye", which means "you use CQC against me, I use CQC against you", simple as this, no inner spite or anything of the sort
But I'm not, I'm not saying that the reason for the resistance comes strictly from this statement, it comes from the fact that Psycho Mantis actually couldn't read his future, the statement is nothing more than the reason PM gives as to why that happened; Mantis could have said "Snake I can't read you future because your ballsack is so incredibly big, just like us FOXHOUND members" and Snake would have STILL gotten resistance to Precog along with the FOXHOUND, because Mantis outright states that the condition which makes it impossible for him to read someone's future applies to them AS WELL AS Snake
You are, again, reading way too much into it, the reason why Snake doesn't have a future is completely irrelevant here, we know that the resistance to precog comes from not having a future and we know that the FOXHOUND members don't have a future, done, the reason behind why they don't have a future is never brought up and as such is irrelevant.
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Ops is kinda weird, many don't consider it canon, and I haven't played it (don't plan on doing it either, if it's anything like Peace Walker I'd be hammering at my balls halfway through the game), but from what I gather, there could be proof of Big Boss resisting precog there since there is an ESP with precog an BB beats him, or something like that, so it's probably worth picking up scaling-wise
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I'm, uh, kinda knowledgeable? Outside of MGSV I'm confident in my knowledge of Solid games and Rising, but nothing outside of that. Anyway, I'm gonna give my piece on Part 1 stuff as well.
Soliton should be Extrasensory Perception. A shark's Ampullae of Lorenzini are classified as that, and those definitely aren't magic.
I don't think Volgin Heat Resist is worth talking about. One way or the other, he has the ability, does the exact potency matter that much?
Grabbing a cup instinctively is an IR, just not a noteworthy one, while immediately switching to a combat style is. Also, it's worth mentioning, about the Judo thing, that's just what people called martial arts in the 70's, due to its popularities through movies. That or Karate, but CQC resembles Judo more.
I'm neutral on precog, the wording still feels a bit weird. Also, would Sniper Wolf also have a huge ballsack?
That said, Ocelot does have a future, maybe not too much of one but he does live another, what, ten years after MGS1? Nevermind that Snake also does. That comment doesn't make much sense in retrospect, does it?
Soliton should be Extrasensory Perception. A shark's Ampullae of Lorenzini are classified as that, and those definitely aren't magic.
I don't think Volgin Heat Resist is worth talking about. One way or the other, he has the ability, does the exact potency matter that much?
Grabbing a cup instinctively is an IR, just not a noteworthy one, while immediately switching to a combat style is. Also, it's worth mentioning, about the Judo thing, that's just what people called martial arts in the 70's, due to its popularities through movies. That or Karate, but CQC resembles Judo more.
I'm neutral on precog, the wording still feels a bit weird. Also, would Sniper Wolf also have a huge ballsack?
That said, Ocelot does have a future, maybe not too much of one but he does live another, what, ten years after MGS1? Nevermind that Snake also does. That comment doesn't make much sense in retrospect, does it?
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I said it before, and I'm saying it again. It isn't ESP, I've told you why, it's electromagnetic manipulation. It senses life, but not in the way the profile means. When it says "senses life and matter signatures", it means like the shit someone like Goku can do, by sensing literal life energy or someone's soul via supernatural method, it's quite literally why a DBZ character is the page's example. Is it mentioned on the page? No, but this is a matter of common sense. I can even go ahead and contact the person who created the page to clarify if you're really going down this route and refusing to listen. Though, ignoring the fact the profile does make mention of it and the terminology by definition refers to supernatural methodology. And the fact EP is relegated almost entirely to abilities that allows one to sense life force in the sense of something like an invisible supernatural force like the soul or chi and not a body's biological chemical processes through EM fields. Yes, EWD isnt mentioned on the Enhanced Senses page, because, as previously clarified, Enhanced Senses is such an overwhelmingly vast category that it's impossible to list every single way one can apply and all types of the ability, there's a limit of what can be done, in some cases you just have to use your head and draw realistic and applicatory conclusions. It picking up the field of view of the enemy is bordering on literal gameplay mechanics, but even then, it's still explained in verse by it simply being EMP pulses responding to those within the AOE's biological reactions within the body and then sending a feedback of the data collected to the user like Solid and Big Boss. I'm not going to argue this point further, I outright disagree with it, not because Soliton Radar can't sense life, create maps, pick up and detect bioforms and all that, but because what it does and is doing is quite literally not what you're proposing, it's simply not, listing it as such would be blatant misinformation and a lie.
>No need to be pissy about the links, i just posted them to cut you some slack. The problem here is that in the moment when the Lightning discharged its heat on Volgin, he doesn't suffer any burns, which means that he tanked the lightning's heat without suffering heat-related damage, the serious charring only happens after the bullets start going off, before that, there's no blackening other than the one with was already present before.
Or, he was burned over time? Hat doesn't instantly ignite surfaces on contact unless it's ******* ridiculous. And even then, not literally instant, it actually depends on things like heat transfer and thermodynamics, I've actually been delving into that a bit recently to help with some heat calc's I have on the backlog, but, put simply, of course he'd be seemingly fine for a bit visually, heat doesn't work instantly, especially a human body which actually has a surprisingly high basic resistance to transfer of heat and insulation. And yes, the serious charring only happens after the bullets start firing, but the charring and the bullet arent correlated at all. Bullets dont cook someone into a hysk of blackened meat, heat does, and Volgin was on fire, and that fire burned him, as well as having the bullets explode. He can be harmed further by the bullets, but it doesnt take away that we visually and explicitly see him be cooked alive by the heat over the course of like 30 seconds.
>It's not even a matter of "may have killed him", Volgin is basically fine right after the lightning (yeah, he's not really fine, but he had also just spent the last 15 minutes getting shot at by an RPG, so it's understandable that he would already be mostly ****** up), he only starts to display pain when the bullets go off.
That's true, he was already harmed and took damage, but it's still true he was cooked by the lightning bolt, as it's outright stated by Big Boss the moment he falls down "Heh, fried by a lightning bolt". Thus we can conclude, the newfound extra charring, was due to, being fried by a lightning bolt as that's what's told to us explicitly. Mind you, I'm fine with heat resistance, just not to the degree being proposed.
>being "fried" by lightning is so vague it hurts, Snake's joke is clearly about the irony of a guy who has electicity powers being (indirectly) done in by a lightning. Anyhow, I take the actual canon over the statements, and the actual canon shows that Volgin didn't suffer any burns right after the lightning struck him, which means that he tanked the heat. This discussion isn't that important tbh, since we agree that he should get Resistance to high temperatures but we just disagree on its level.
Who said it was a joke? Nothing about it was a joke. Volgin gets hit by lightning, gets fried, Snake then finds irony in the fact that Volgin, someone who uses electricity was finished off by a lightning and, as he says, got fried. It's not a joke, it's a simple pointing out of an event that just took place. And "fried" isn't vague. The most common usage of the term refers to cooking something, that's right. Snake essentially says that Volgin got cooked by a lightning bolt, and given we see far mire charring after the scene is done, which of course, couldn't have been done by bullets, it obviously occurred due to the intense heat literally cooking Volgin alive into a comatose state. And no, are you aware that people can interact with full body stove tops? Burning hot coals and even lava without damage? Of course, all that is only for an extremely small timeframe, but the humans dont get damaged because of how heat transfer and insulation works. Volgin not taking any serious damage for like 5 seconds after getting hit isnt him tanking it, when not even a minute later he's basically fully cooked alive. You don't say a steak tanks oven heat for taking awhile to cook do you? Something thing here, except way less time. Yes, we both agree on resistance to heat, but disagree on the level. So either way I guess it's just a matter of semantics.
>No, it's OBJECTIVELY not the same thing, maybe in concept, but that's just because you are literally describing what Instinctive Reactions is as an ability. I don't think I need to tell you that grabbing a glass is SLIGHTLY less impressive than automatically using a martial art.
Of course using a martial arts naturally is above reaching for a glass of water falling, but it doesnt change the fact both are essentially the same thing. My issue here lies in the context of said "instinctive reactions" and not the fact on whether it happened or not. You're kinda taking the event out of context and treating it as the ability full on, when this only happened in response to a hyper specific scenario out of a deep rooted hatred and spite to a particular fighting style and Big Boss. It's far more complicated than you give it credit for, it isnt just "Solid can react automatically on pure instinct to attacks without thinking", it's more like "he automatically uses CQC against others who try and mimic CQC out of pure big dick energy and spite".
>Do I really need to explain to you that the ACTUAL reason why Snake didn't use CQC before 4 is due to CQC not even existing in Kojima's mind? There was CQB, yes, but it's nowhere near the same thing, of course we don't see Snake use it before 4.
And? And in-universe, it's explicitly said and clarified in detail that Snake didnt use CQC in the previous games simply because he hated Big boss and what he did so it didnt feel right using his style. Of course CQC didn't exist yet in a meta sense, but it's outright said Snake always knew and opted out not to use it willingly and stayed true to that for 19 years. Ergo, it not existing doesnt matter because we're given a explicit plain as day explanation that works with zero issue in the very same conversation and CODEC that the thing you're trying to use to implement IR is from, literally seconds apart. Ergo, this point is completely irrelevant, doesnt matter.
>The fact is that there is no "CQC punch" and no "CQC throw", which is also why people like Ocelot and Volgin think that CQC is simply Judo, because its throws aren't made up, they aren't new, they are just Judo throws, hell, in the video I linked in the OP the guy straight up names Snake's throws and they are all from existing martial arts. The point about Snake "only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it" is made completely moot by the fact that he also used it against Ocelot when he attacked him, unless you wanna say that Ocelot's CQC was a pale imitation?
No because Solid Snake literally stopped caring and used it willingly throughout all of 4. Hell, if anything Snake saying "his body just does it naturally", isnt even meant to be taken as literal as youre implying. And you do realize all fighting styles have a similar basis right? But again, plenty of fighting styles have things like throws, grapples, punch's, kicks, etc and various stances. Some nearly if not identical, but it doesn't matter. Snake uses CQC against CQC, he doesn't use CQC against CQB or literally any other fighting style. Volgin and Ocelot thinking that something looked like Judo because when in reality it was a made up martial art that only Big Boss and The Boss knew is completely reasonable on there end, it doesnt change the fact that Soid Snake clearly explains the how, the why and the when his reactions come into play, if those situation doesnt apply, neither does the reactions as it's the only time he ever actually does anything like that, and that's assuming he's even acting instinctively, as it could very well just be muscle memory doing the moves but he himself still willingly fighting.
>The truth of the matter is much simpler, and you simply reading way too much into what Snake says: What Snake tells Otacon can be boiled down to "when i get attacked with CQC my body instinctively uses CQC (due to the imprinting from training, he doesn't say it but this is most likely the origin of the Instinctive Reactions)", this is further driven home by Otacon saying "Ah, I get it. An eye for an eye", which means "you use CQC against me, I use CQC against you", simple as this, no inner spite or anything of the sort
Yes, exactly. CQC for CQC, an eye for an eye. Snake will automatically use CQC if attacked by CQC. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, I'm not reading to much into what Snake says, i'm simply just taking what he says and not ignoring it, he explains the situation, as such, that's why it happens. To ignore it is to ignore the reason entirely. I already said you can give Solid Instinctive Reaction, but it absolutely must be clarified in detail the mechanics and situation in which it is applicable, simply slapping IR on his profile and opting out to not explain the limitations or circumstances is dishonest, if it's explained in full, I can agree with it being put on there.
>mantis snip.
Yeah I got that? I already said I'm neutral on it and I'm fine with it so long as others agree, no need to further debate this point.
>You are, again, reading way too much into it, the reason why Snake doesn't have a future is completely irrelevant here, we know that the resistance to precog comes from not having a future and we know that the FOXHOUND members don't have a future, done, the reason behind why they don't have a future is never brought up and as such is irrelevant.
see above, but yes, I probably am reading to much into it, but as I also said, Mantis as a character is literally video game Deadpool, metafiction kinda applies to him directly. But either way. a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶a̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶e̶p̶l̶y̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶M̶A̶R̶I̶N̶E̶/̶A̶R̶S̶E̶N̶A̶L̶ ̶R̶A̶Y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶R̶E̶X̶/̶R̶A̶Y̶ ̶S̶p̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶r̶e̶p̶a̶n̶c̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶a̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶m̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶e̶p̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶j̶e̶c̶t̶u̶r̶e̶
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To summarize.
Still disagree on EP Soliton.
Volgin has heat resistance, but it's explicitly said and shown that he was cooked alive by a natural lightning bolt, yes bullets may have harmed him more and yes he may have been fine for a moment, but the former doesnt change the fact and the latter is simply realistic and exactly how heat works in general.
Snake not using CQC being a emta reason doesn't matter, it's explained why in detail in verse, he always knew it, and arguably even used it in MG1.
If you want Instinctive Reaction, fine, but actually explain the context on the profile otherwise it's simple dishonesty.
Neutral on precog, if others agree then I'm fine with it.
>No need to be pissy about the links, i just posted them to cut you some slack. The problem here is that in the moment when the Lightning discharged its heat on Volgin, he doesn't suffer any burns, which means that he tanked the lightning's heat without suffering heat-related damage, the serious charring only happens after the bullets start going off, before that, there's no blackening other than the one with was already present before.
Or, he was burned over time? Hat doesn't instantly ignite surfaces on contact unless it's ******* ridiculous. And even then, not literally instant, it actually depends on things like heat transfer and thermodynamics, I've actually been delving into that a bit recently to help with some heat calc's I have on the backlog, but, put simply, of course he'd be seemingly fine for a bit visually, heat doesn't work instantly, especially a human body which actually has a surprisingly high basic resistance to transfer of heat and insulation. And yes, the serious charring only happens after the bullets start firing, but the charring and the bullet arent correlated at all. Bullets dont cook someone into a hysk of blackened meat, heat does, and Volgin was on fire, and that fire burned him, as well as having the bullets explode. He can be harmed further by the bullets, but it doesnt take away that we visually and explicitly see him be cooked alive by the heat over the course of like 30 seconds.
>It's not even a matter of "may have killed him", Volgin is basically fine right after the lightning (yeah, he's not really fine, but he had also just spent the last 15 minutes getting shot at by an RPG, so it's understandable that he would already be mostly ****** up), he only starts to display pain when the bullets go off.
That's true, he was already harmed and took damage, but it's still true he was cooked by the lightning bolt, as it's outright stated by Big Boss the moment he falls down "Heh, fried by a lightning bolt". Thus we can conclude, the newfound extra charring, was due to, being fried by a lightning bolt as that's what's told to us explicitly. Mind you, I'm fine with heat resistance, just not to the degree being proposed.
>being "fried" by lightning is so vague it hurts, Snake's joke is clearly about the irony of a guy who has electicity powers being (indirectly) done in by a lightning. Anyhow, I take the actual canon over the statements, and the actual canon shows that Volgin didn't suffer any burns right after the lightning struck him, which means that he tanked the heat. This discussion isn't that important tbh, since we agree that he should get Resistance to high temperatures but we just disagree on its level.
Who said it was a joke? Nothing about it was a joke. Volgin gets hit by lightning, gets fried, Snake then finds irony in the fact that Volgin, someone who uses electricity was finished off by a lightning and, as he says, got fried. It's not a joke, it's a simple pointing out of an event that just took place. And "fried" isn't vague. The most common usage of the term refers to cooking something, that's right. Snake essentially says that Volgin got cooked by a lightning bolt, and given we see far mire charring after the scene is done, which of course, couldn't have been done by bullets, it obviously occurred due to the intense heat literally cooking Volgin alive into a comatose state. And no, are you aware that people can interact with full body stove tops? Burning hot coals and even lava without damage? Of course, all that is only for an extremely small timeframe, but the humans dont get damaged because of how heat transfer and insulation works. Volgin not taking any serious damage for like 5 seconds after getting hit isnt him tanking it, when not even a minute later he's basically fully cooked alive. You don't say a steak tanks oven heat for taking awhile to cook do you? Something thing here, except way less time. Yes, we both agree on resistance to heat, but disagree on the level. So either way I guess it's just a matter of semantics.
>No, it's OBJECTIVELY not the same thing, maybe in concept, but that's just because you are literally describing what Instinctive Reactions is as an ability. I don't think I need to tell you that grabbing a glass is SLIGHTLY less impressive than automatically using a martial art.
Of course using a martial arts naturally is above reaching for a glass of water falling, but it doesnt change the fact both are essentially the same thing. My issue here lies in the context of said "instinctive reactions" and not the fact on whether it happened or not. You're kinda taking the event out of context and treating it as the ability full on, when this only happened in response to a hyper specific scenario out of a deep rooted hatred and spite to a particular fighting style and Big Boss. It's far more complicated than you give it credit for, it isnt just "Solid can react automatically on pure instinct to attacks without thinking", it's more like "he automatically uses CQC against others who try and mimic CQC out of pure big dick energy and spite".
>Do I really need to explain to you that the ACTUAL reason why Snake didn't use CQC before 4 is due to CQC not even existing in Kojima's mind? There was CQB, yes, but it's nowhere near the same thing, of course we don't see Snake use it before 4.
And? And in-universe, it's explicitly said and clarified in detail that Snake didnt use CQC in the previous games simply because he hated Big boss and what he did so it didnt feel right using his style. Of course CQC didn't exist yet in a meta sense, but it's outright said Snake always knew and opted out not to use it willingly and stayed true to that for 19 years. Ergo, it not existing doesnt matter because we're given a explicit plain as day explanation that works with zero issue in the very same conversation and CODEC that the thing you're trying to use to implement IR is from, literally seconds apart. Ergo, this point is completely irrelevant, doesnt matter.
>The fact is that there is no "CQC punch" and no "CQC throw", which is also why people like Ocelot and Volgin think that CQC is simply Judo, because its throws aren't made up, they aren't new, they are just Judo throws, hell, in the video I linked in the OP the guy straight up names Snake's throws and they are all from existing martial arts. The point about Snake "only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it" is made completely moot by the fact that he also used it against Ocelot when he attacked him, unless you wanna say that Ocelot's CQC was a pale imitation?
No because Solid Snake literally stopped caring and used it willingly throughout all of 4. Hell, if anything Snake saying "his body just does it naturally", isnt even meant to be taken as literal as youre implying. And you do realize all fighting styles have a similar basis right? But again, plenty of fighting styles have things like throws, grapples, punch's, kicks, etc and various stances. Some nearly if not identical, but it doesn't matter. Snake uses CQC against CQC, he doesn't use CQC against CQB or literally any other fighting style. Volgin and Ocelot thinking that something looked like Judo because when in reality it was a made up martial art that only Big Boss and The Boss knew is completely reasonable on there end, it doesnt change the fact that Soid Snake clearly explains the how, the why and the when his reactions come into play, if those situation doesnt apply, neither does the reactions as it's the only time he ever actually does anything like that, and that's assuming he's even acting instinctively, as it could very well just be muscle memory doing the moves but he himself still willingly fighting.
>The truth of the matter is much simpler, and you simply reading way too much into what Snake says: What Snake tells Otacon can be boiled down to "when i get attacked with CQC my body instinctively uses CQC (due to the imprinting from training, he doesn't say it but this is most likely the origin of the Instinctive Reactions)", this is further driven home by Otacon saying "Ah, I get it. An eye for an eye", which means "you use CQC against me, I use CQC against you", simple as this, no inner spite or anything of the sort
Yes, exactly. CQC for CQC, an eye for an eye. Snake will automatically use CQC if attacked by CQC. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, I'm not reading to much into what Snake says, i'm simply just taking what he says and not ignoring it, he explains the situation, as such, that's why it happens. To ignore it is to ignore the reason entirely. I already said you can give Solid Instinctive Reaction, but it absolutely must be clarified in detail the mechanics and situation in which it is applicable, simply slapping IR on his profile and opting out to not explain the limitations or circumstances is dishonest, if it's explained in full, I can agree with it being put on there.
>mantis snip.
Yeah I got that? I already said I'm neutral on it and I'm fine with it so long as others agree, no need to further debate this point.
>You are, again, reading way too much into it, the reason why Snake doesn't have a future is completely irrelevant here, we know that the resistance to precog comes from not having a future and we know that the FOXHOUND members don't have a future, done, the reason behind why they don't have a future is never brought up and as such is irrelevant.
see above, but yes, I probably am reading to much into it, but as I also said, Mantis as a character is literally video game Deadpool, metafiction kinda applies to him directly. But either way. a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶a̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶e̶p̶l̶y̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶M̶A̶R̶I̶N̶E̶/̶A̶R̶S̶E̶N̶A̶L̶ ̶R̶A̶Y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶R̶E̶X̶/̶R̶A̶Y̶ ̶S̶p̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶r̶e̶p̶a̶n̶c̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶a̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶m̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶i̶r̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶e̶p̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶j̶e̶c̶t̶u̶r̶e̶
----------------------
To summarize.
Still disagree on EP Soliton.
Volgin has heat resistance, but it's explicitly said and shown that he was cooked alive by a natural lightning bolt, yes bullets may have harmed him more and yes he may have been fine for a moment, but the former doesnt change the fact and the latter is simply realistic and exactly how heat works in general.
Snake not using CQC being a emta reason doesn't matter, it's explained why in detail in verse, he always knew it, and arguably even used it in MG1.
If you want Instinctive Reaction, fine, but actually explain the context on the profile otherwise it's simple dishonesty.
Neutral on precog, if others agree then I'm fine with it.
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>Soliton should be Extrasensory Perception. A shark's Ampullae of Lorenzini are classified as that, and those definitely aren't magic.
Well it's wrong, that's just enhanced senses, like, literally enhanced senses, a perfect example of it really.
>I don't think Volgin Heat Resist is worth talking about. One way or the other, he has the ability, does the exact potency matter that much?
Depends,
>Grabbing a cup instinctively is an IR, just not a noteworthy one, while immediately switching to a combat style is. Also, it's worth mentioning, about the Judo thing, that's just what people called martial arts in the 70's, due to its popularities through movies. That or Karate, but CQC resembles Judo more.
Exactly my point, they're both examples of IR, but one's not noteworthy at despite being it and Snake's is super hyperspecific, if one wants to have it listed, fine, but actually explain the circumstance and limitations, simply leaving out context is dishonest and this is a case where it slightly matters. And I'd wager that Volgin and Ocelot called it Judo because it's the only thing they could really guess it to be, given CQC was made up by him and the boss and thus nobody else would know it's a thing but that works too I guess.
>I'm neutral on precog, the wording still feels a bit weird. Also, would Sniper Wolf also have a huge ballsack?
Delete this.
>That said, Ocelot does have a future, maybe not too much of one but he does live another, what, ten years after MGS1? Nevermind that Snake also does. That comment doesn't make much sense in retrospect, does it?
As said, I'm neutral on precog resistance for others (and outright disagree with we take into account side canon).
Though thinking on it, if Port Ops is canon, Precog resistance may not actually work as Big Boss and Solid Snake's futures were read. But that's IF it's canon, though I'm pretty sure it is.
Well it's wrong, that's just enhanced senses, like, literally enhanced senses, a perfect example of it really.
>I don't think Volgin Heat Resist is worth talking about. One way or the other, he has the ability, does the exact potency matter that much?
Depends,
>Grabbing a cup instinctively is an IR, just not a noteworthy one, while immediately switching to a combat style is. Also, it's worth mentioning, about the Judo thing, that's just what people called martial arts in the 70's, due to its popularities through movies. That or Karate, but CQC resembles Judo more.
Exactly my point, they're both examples of IR, but one's not noteworthy at despite being it and Snake's is super hyperspecific, if one wants to have it listed, fine, but actually explain the circumstance and limitations, simply leaving out context is dishonest and this is a case where it slightly matters. And I'd wager that Volgin and Ocelot called it Judo because it's the only thing they could really guess it to be, given CQC was made up by him and the boss and thus nobody else would know it's a thing but that works too I guess.
>I'm neutral on precog, the wording still feels a bit weird. Also, would Sniper Wolf also have a huge ballsack?
Delete this.
>That said, Ocelot does have a future, maybe not too much of one but he does live another, what, ten years after MGS1? Nevermind that Snake also does. That comment doesn't make much sense in retrospect, does it?
As said, I'm neutral on precog resistance for others (and outright disagree with we take into account side canon).
Though thinking on it, if Port Ops is canon, Precog resistance may not actually work as Big Boss and Solid Snake's futures were read. But that's IF it's canon, though I'm pretty sure it is.
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>Ops is kinda weird, many don't consider it canon, and I haven't played it (don't plan on doing it either, if it's anything like Peace Walker I'd be hammering at my balls halfway through the game), but from what I gather, there could be proof of Big Boss resisting precog there since there is an ESP with precog an BB beats him, or something like that, so it's probably worth picking up scaling-wise
There's some good feats in Port Ops, Big Boss defeating Null/Frank, who can read muscle movements like Vamp and can predict and react to attacks before they happen due to it. Some psychic shit. Big Boss withstanding and walking off a shit ton of liquid nitrogen which is a explicit huge resistance to extreme cold. Also Peace Walker was great, just not the original due to controls, the port is great though. But, Big Boss explicitly doesnt resist precog, his entire future was read and we even get visuals so we know exactly what it's talking about. Port Ops, giveth, Port Ops taketh away.
There's some good feats in Port Ops, Big Boss defeating Null/Frank, who can read muscle movements like Vamp and can predict and react to attacks before they happen due to it. Some psychic shit. Big Boss withstanding and walking off a shit ton of liquid nitrogen which is a explicit huge resistance to extreme cold. Also Peace Walker was great, just not the original due to controls, the port is great though. But, Big Boss explicitly doesnt resist precog, his entire future was read and we even get visuals so we know exactly what it's talking about. Port Ops, giveth, Port Ops taketh away.
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I don't see how the Ampullae are enhanced senses, they are a completely different thing from any of the traditional senses, as they sense electricity through a series of receptors in the nose area. It's a sixth sense, if you will. And hey, check this out (From the EP page): "Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user."
I do agree that the IR should be explained in the profile
No : )
I do agree that the IR should be explained in the profile
No : )
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Because it's an enhanced natural sense that isn't done via supernatural methods and one that falls under a real sense animals can have. It's a different type of sense, but it isnt a "sixth sense", when the EP profiles says sixth sense, it doesnt mean a sense on top of the five basic ones, it's talking about the sixth sense as its known in psychic and spiritual terminology. I mean, to give you an idea, you watch the movie the sixth sense before?
>"Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user."
And? Soliton does it via EMP, sonar, with the detection of life being simply recording those within AOE's biologicals processes and sending that data back to Solid and Big Boss. It isnt EP, the EP profile could be better defined, but I'm absolutely not joking when I say it isnt EP, it's other things that could result in a function that is close to a facet of what EP can do but it isnt EP. Though, I should remind you, the EP profile hasnt been touched in over 3 years, it's out of date, but how we treat EP as a whole on the wiki now? Is very clearly not what the Soliton constitutes as. Though mind you, " sensing, detection, or a sixth sense", is explicitly talking about sensing and the like through supernatural method, again, when it says sensing, it means in the way someone like Goku can sense others or detect, not in the way a soliton can. Extrasensory Perception is strictly a supernatural iteration of enhanced senses. You and twellax are kinda misinterpreting it, not your fault obviously, it could be worded better, but that's what happens when the last update was in 2017. Either way, it isnt EP, sensing things with em fields is enhanced senses, one of hundreds of types, and magnetic manipulation.
Cool.
>No : )
Idk what this is referring to.
>"Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user."
And? Soliton does it via EMP, sonar, with the detection of life being simply recording those within AOE's biologicals processes and sending that data back to Solid and Big Boss. It isnt EP, the EP profile could be better defined, but I'm absolutely not joking when I say it isnt EP, it's other things that could result in a function that is close to a facet of what EP can do but it isnt EP. Though, I should remind you, the EP profile hasnt been touched in over 3 years, it's out of date, but how we treat EP as a whole on the wiki now? Is very clearly not what the Soliton constitutes as. Though mind you, " sensing, detection, or a sixth sense", is explicitly talking about sensing and the like through supernatural method, again, when it says sensing, it means in the way someone like Goku can sense others or detect, not in the way a soliton can. Extrasensory Perception is strictly a supernatural iteration of enhanced senses. You and twellax are kinda misinterpreting it, not your fault obviously, it could be worded better, but that's what happens when the last update was in 2017. Either way, it isnt EP, sensing things with em fields is enhanced senses, one of hundreds of types, and magnetic manipulation.
Cool.
>No : )
Idk what this is referring to.
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From a glance, I agree with most of the proposals, so I will go with the ones I am critical of.
Big Boss:
Wouldn't this be Body Control instead? He doesn't actually die, but fakes it while being conscious.
Raiden:
This just looks like standard durability being depicted correctly in a cutscene. The Invulnerability ability is more about conceptual invulnerability, and casually tanking weak attacks doesn't qualify.
It is a stretch to call this Attack Reflection. Body Control fits better. Parry blocks/deflects attack but doesn't reflect damage, and would be covered under Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery.
Vamp's paralysis is explained to be a form of hypnosis, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation would fit better.
This is attributed to Raiden's Skull Suit while the justification implies it is pure skill. So the justification should be (His Skull Suit prevented Vamp's analytical prediction of his muscle movements)
The Boss:
A major stretch, since disassembling weapons isn't matter deconstruction, and can fit right in with Weapon Mastery. If we can show that she disassembles weapons in a manner that is physically impossible, we can argue for Limited Phasing.
This is questionable. She attended a nuclear weapon test which made her infertile, and she had a bad atmospheric entry which exposed her to heat and radiation that put her in a 6 month coma. It is questionable if she has particular resistance to radiation, and if she did it is only a minor one. Also, I don't see why this would scale to other characters; the resistance would not be considered a general ability among the Metal Gear cast, and we don't know if the Snake clones' genetic engineering included resistance to radiation.
Solid Snake:
I am fine with this, though some might argue that Twin Snakes is non-canon.
This is resistance to Enhanced Vision.
Volgin:
I mean his body and face is burned from his own electricity, and the lightning put him in a coma. So if he is given this resistance the justification should be 'survived' rather than 'tanked'.
Vamp:
Disagree. He dies and loses consciousness if he gets shot in the head or gets shot too many times. Also, in the linked video it looks like he was stabbed in his upper chest, so in his lung, not his heart.
Big Boss:
Fine by me, since he can ask Miller for equipment.
Volgin:
Disagree. Looks like a head wound with no evidence that a bullet pierced his brain, and he never died; only entered a coma and then developed fire and ghost themed abilities after he was awakened.
Man on Fire:
Disagree since vapor is generated with his physical body in tact, and we don't see his body splitting apart.
Psycho Mantis:
Agree. Canonity of the chapter can be supported by it being referenced in the credits (Eli establishes his "Kingdom of the Flies" in Africa).
Vamp:
Disagree. Snake only says that vaporization will definitely kill him unlike conventional attacks, but this doesn't mean that decapitating Vamp won't work. Vamp's regeneration have been shown working on too much of a small scale to consider him fully regenerating from a small chunk of meat.
Armstrong:
This is iffy considering that this seems exclusive to politicians who are part of The Patriots conspiracy. A strong argument can be made if it can be shown that Armstrong is aware of the existence of mind readers like Psycho Mantis.
Agree with most of the rest, but will have to give it a proper reading later.
Part 1 (yep, the uncontroversial part 
)
Big Boss:Part 1 (yep, the uncontroversial part
)| Minor death manipulation (via the fake death pill, he can fake his own death) |
Raiden:
| Pseudo-Invulnerability (artillery fire bounces off his armour) |
| Attack Reflection (can eject projectiles imbedded in his chest, also via Parry) |
| Resistance to: Paralysis Inducement (can break free from Vamp's paralysis) |
| Resistance to: Analytical Prediction (beat Vamp despite him being able to predict his movements by looking at his muscles) |
The Boss:
| Minor Deconstruction (can disassemble any gun nigh-instantaneously without needing to disharm her opponent first) |
| Resistance to: Radiations (she was the first person to be sent in space, because she could resist the cosmic rays without dying) |
Solid Snake:
| Instinctive Reactions (dodged Sniper Wolf's surprise-bullet [sniper rounds are super-sonic, he couldn't have been warned by the gunshot], instinctively uses CQC when he's getting attacked, despite him actively trying not to use it) |
| Resistance to: Extrasensory Perception (his Octo-camo masks his thermal reading) |
Volgin:
| Resistance: High Temperatures (he can tank his own electricity, tanked a lightning at the end of MGS3) |
Vamp:
| Immortality (Type 2. He survives fatal injuries even before regenerating them, such as getting stabbed through the heart) |
Part 2
Big Boss:Part 2
| He should get Venom's equipment (he was still in contact with the Mother Base crew, so it's not a stretch to say that he would have had access to their weapons and equipment). |
Volgin:
| Immortality (Type 2. He has a gunshot wound in his forehead during his last fight, he also survived his "death" in MGS3 and got turned into The Man on Fire) |
Man on Fire:
| Regeneration (Mid-High. Upon getting sprayed with water, his body is vaporized. The reason why I put it as "controversial" is that it's not made very clear whether this is regeneration or just him teleporting away, however, we can hear him scream in pain as he gets vaporized, so I don't think it's just him teleporting, especially when this effect never happens again despite him teleporting around a whole lot). |
Psycho Mantis:
| Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured) |
Vamp:
| A "Possibly Higher" Key for his Regeneration (Snake implies that anything short of complete physical vaporization won't be enough to surpass Vamp's regeneration. Now, THIS is very iffy, but I decided to still present it just because if it was approved it would be huge. The statement is pretty clear really, it's just a matter of "is it enough to grant Vamp this ability?" |
Armstrong:
| Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (politicians who know secret codes are given surgical implants that allow them to resist Psycho Mantis' mind-probe. Now, does Armstrong know some secret code? Maybe, he's a senator, he might very well be aware of something that would warrant a mental insulation, we simply don't have a canonical statement about it) |
Agree with most of the rest, but will have to give it a proper reading later.
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Deconstruction was already discussed and rejected btw
I kind of agree with some of the stuff you brought up about Part 1 that nobody else mentioned
(also, chariot, the no smiley face was in regards to the "delete this")
I kind of agree with some of the stuff you brought up about Part 1 that nobody else mentioned
(also, chariot, the no smiley face was in regards to the "delete this")
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>and we don't know if the Snake clones genetic engineering included resistance to radiation.
Well, a weakened old Solid Snake did walk through the hall of microwaves for 3 minutes straight. But may be exclusive just for him.
Well, a weakened old Solid Snake did walk through the hall of microwaves for 3 minutes straight. But may be exclusive just for him.
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>Wouldn't this be Body Control instead? He doesn't actually die, but fakes it while being conscious.
Literally a cyanide pill, it's a thing we have irl. As stated before, it's just a pill he has that induces a temporary pseudo state of death to fool others, though if he fails to take the antidot, he really does end up dying.
>This just looks like standard durability being depicted correctly in a cutscene. The Invulnerability ability is more about conceptual invulnerability, and casually tanking weak attacks doesn't qualify.
Yeah, I think we all agree that it's only durability at this point.
>It is a stretch to call this Attack Reflection. Body Control fits better. Parry blocks/deflects attack but doesn't reflect damage, and would be covered under Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery.
That's true.
>Vamp's paralysis is explained to be a form of hypnosis, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation would fit better.
That's half true. It's a mix of a bunch of things, but minor resistance to hypnosis works too, though Otacon just hypothesizes that it's hypnosis, he doesn't actually know for sure because some dude literally binding someone's shadow with a knife is unrealistic, but it's Metal Gear, there's way more wacky things. So both are viable possibilities, we simply dont know for certain which one is true.
>This is attributed to Raiden's Skull Suit while the justification implies it is pure skill. So the justification should be (His Skull Suit prevented Vamp's analytical prediction of his muscle movements)
Isn't that just a guess? Vamp merely says he miscalculated because "your muscles are different". Dont recall it being said it was due to the suit at all unless it was said in a optional CODEC.
>boss deconstruction.
Yeah, it's rejected already.
>Boss Radiation.
That one is actually legit, all it did was render her infertile. Nothing else happened like cancer or extreme radiation poisoning. The coma from the impact wasn't just due to radiation, it was due to, well, re-entry, burning and a bunch of other shit. The radiations actually didnt cause her any extra harm, she didnt get cancer or anything as evidenced by the fact she's mostly healthy in MGS3 it's half the reason why she was picked for it to begin with, she was expendable and could deal with the exposure. Big Boss explicitly has resistance too, he was a test subject in bikini atoll, and he walked with infertility while basically everyone else got cancer then died, he was also close to the Davy Crockett going off at the end of the virtuos mission and was bathed in the shockwave of the blast. The resistance from Big Boss should scale to his clones, they were genetically engineered to have his best physical attributes and genetics and the like, his resistance is a biological physical thing so it should scale, especially to Solidus who's supposed to have a 1:1 genetic structure. Solid Snake also has experience with radiation, he was close by to Outr Heaven's nuclear blast in the MSX games, close enough to where he most certainly would have been effected but wasn't. That really only leaves Liquid Snake as having no concrete reason to scale like Solidus or feats of his own, but given he was supposed to have all of Big Boss' best traits and genes, it's reasonable to assume he got the radiation resistance cooked in.
>I am fine with this, though some might argue that Twin Snakes is non-canon.
I've argued this above. Though Twin Snakes or not, that example there could easily just be him seeing the bullet and moving his head like he does elsewhere in the game or in other games like MGS2 or 4.
>I mean his body and face is burned from his own electricity, and the lightning put him in a coma. So if he is given this resistance the justification should be 'survived' rather than 'tanked'.
This being argued above but it should also be mentioned that he wears a rubber suit so how much of it is his own is hard to say. Resistance to electricity, at least to an extent would exist due to the suit regardless, but it needs to be specified. Though I'm pretty sure we all agree a resistance to heat is fine, it's just the extent of it is what's in contention.
>This is resistance to Enhanced Vision.
Yep, Thermovision. This has been agreed upon as the alternative.
>Disagree. He dies and loses consciousness if he gets shot in the head or gets shot too many times. Also, in the linked video it looks like he was stabbed in his upper chest, so in his lung, not his heart.
Op is actually right here, not the best example but there's other ones as well like Vamp being shot through the head and still being alive for a brief while before going comatose and likely dying temporarily. The immortality type 2 is a low end version of it, he does end up dying half the time, but it's still him surviving attacks that would otherwise instantly kill a human no questions asked. So in my opinion it's fine, it's just a very weak version of the immortalioty and should be clarified as such with the limits and extent detailed on the profile.
>Disagree. Looks like a head wound with no evidence that a bullet pierced his brain, and he never died; only entered a coma and then developed fire and ghost themed abilities after he was awakened.
That's actually probably true. Though, we don't know the extent of it, it could be deep, it could not be deep. It's deep enough to where there's a solid protruding lump so a compromise should be made. Instead of flat out, a "Possibly Type 2; Reason given", would likely be the best route of action.
>Disagree. Snake only says that vaporization will definitely kill him unlike conventional attacks, but this doesn't mean that decapitating Vamp won't work. Vamp's regeneration have been shown working on too much of a small scale to consider him fully regenerating from a small chunk of meat.
I've already said above that I outright disagree with vaporization being needed to kill Vamp, vaporization would kill his ass, and so would shit less than it. Though I personally agreed with a possibly higher as, even though it's most certainly not anything like vaporization tier, it's true we never actually seen the extent of his regeneration, and other nanomachine regenerators like Armstrong have some other feats like being able to reconnect lost limbs and body parts. Possibly higher I feel works, just not for the reason given.
>This is iffy considering that this seems exclusive to politicians into the Patriots conspiracy. A strong argument can be made if it can be shown that Armstrong is aware of the existence of mind readers like Psycho Mantis.
I'm pretty sure every higher up knew about Mantis, Mantis was actively employed and tasked by forces as low as the FBI, he was well known by most. And it was said most high ranking politicians or those that know a lot have them implanted. Armstrong not only knows a lot of ultra top secret info (I'm pretty sure he outright knows about the entirety of the patriot's plans and the like, despite that having been classified, being relevant as Mantis was the commander f The Patriot's lead and most advanced unit, the BB's), but he would be aware of psychics (as they arent actually a secret in verse, and it was more of a rule that they had implants to stop psychic leaks). Though, the only argue against this would be is if they stopped giving implants by the time Rising took place for some reason.
I agree with some of your points though, though some of it has already been discussed and agreed upon like resistance to thermal being enhanced senses and Deconstruction being a huge nope.
Literally a cyanide pill, it's a thing we have irl. As stated before, it's just a pill he has that induces a temporary pseudo state of death to fool others, though if he fails to take the antidot, he really does end up dying.
>This just looks like standard durability being depicted correctly in a cutscene. The Invulnerability ability is more about conceptual invulnerability, and casually tanking weak attacks doesn't qualify.
Yeah, I think we all agree that it's only durability at this point.
>It is a stretch to call this Attack Reflection. Body Control fits better. Parry blocks/deflects attack but doesn't reflect damage, and would be covered under Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery.
That's true.
>Vamp's paralysis is explained to be a form of hypnosis, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation would fit better.
That's half true. It's a mix of a bunch of things, but minor resistance to hypnosis works too, though Otacon just hypothesizes that it's hypnosis, he doesn't actually know for sure because some dude literally binding someone's shadow with a knife is unrealistic, but it's Metal Gear, there's way more wacky things. So both are viable possibilities, we simply dont know for certain which one is true.
>This is attributed to Raiden's Skull Suit while the justification implies it is pure skill. So the justification should be (His Skull Suit prevented Vamp's analytical prediction of his muscle movements)
Isn't that just a guess? Vamp merely says he miscalculated because "your muscles are different". Dont recall it being said it was due to the suit at all unless it was said in a optional CODEC.
>boss deconstruction.
Yeah, it's rejected already.
>Boss Radiation.
That one is actually legit, all it did was render her infertile. Nothing else happened like cancer or extreme radiation poisoning. The coma from the impact wasn't just due to radiation, it was due to, well, re-entry, burning and a bunch of other shit. The radiations actually didnt cause her any extra harm, she didnt get cancer or anything as evidenced by the fact she's mostly healthy in MGS3 it's half the reason why she was picked for it to begin with, she was expendable and could deal with the exposure. Big Boss explicitly has resistance too, he was a test subject in bikini atoll, and he walked with infertility while basically everyone else got cancer then died, he was also close to the Davy Crockett going off at the end of the virtuos mission and was bathed in the shockwave of the blast. The resistance from Big Boss should scale to his clones, they were genetically engineered to have his best physical attributes and genetics and the like, his resistance is a biological physical thing so it should scale, especially to Solidus who's supposed to have a 1:1 genetic structure. Solid Snake also has experience with radiation, he was close by to Outr Heaven's nuclear blast in the MSX games, close enough to where he most certainly would have been effected but wasn't. That really only leaves Liquid Snake as having no concrete reason to scale like Solidus or feats of his own, but given he was supposed to have all of Big Boss' best traits and genes, it's reasonable to assume he got the radiation resistance cooked in.
>I am fine with this, though some might argue that Twin Snakes is non-canon.
I've argued this above. Though Twin Snakes or not, that example there could easily just be him seeing the bullet and moving his head like he does elsewhere in the game or in other games like MGS2 or 4.
>I mean his body and face is burned from his own electricity, and the lightning put him in a coma. So if he is given this resistance the justification should be 'survived' rather than 'tanked'.
This being argued above but it should also be mentioned that he wears a rubber suit so how much of it is his own is hard to say. Resistance to electricity, at least to an extent would exist due to the suit regardless, but it needs to be specified. Though I'm pretty sure we all agree a resistance to heat is fine, it's just the extent of it is what's in contention.
>This is resistance to Enhanced Vision.
Yep, Thermovision. This has been agreed upon as the alternative.
>Disagree. He dies and loses consciousness if he gets shot in the head or gets shot too many times. Also, in the linked video it looks like he was stabbed in his upper chest, so in his lung, not his heart.
Op is actually right here, not the best example but there's other ones as well like Vamp being shot through the head and still being alive for a brief while before going comatose and likely dying temporarily. The immortality type 2 is a low end version of it, he does end up dying half the time, but it's still him surviving attacks that would otherwise instantly kill a human no questions asked. So in my opinion it's fine, it's just a very weak version of the immortalioty and should be clarified as such with the limits and extent detailed on the profile.
>Disagree. Looks like a head wound with no evidence that a bullet pierced his brain, and he never died; only entered a coma and then developed fire and ghost themed abilities after he was awakened.
That's actually probably true. Though, we don't know the extent of it, it could be deep, it could not be deep. It's deep enough to where there's a solid protruding lump so a compromise should be made. Instead of flat out, a "Possibly Type 2; Reason given", would likely be the best route of action.
>Disagree. Snake only says that vaporization will definitely kill him unlike conventional attacks, but this doesn't mean that decapitating Vamp won't work. Vamp's regeneration have been shown working on too much of a small scale to consider him fully regenerating from a small chunk of meat.
I've already said above that I outright disagree with vaporization being needed to kill Vamp, vaporization would kill his ass, and so would shit less than it. Though I personally agreed with a possibly higher as, even though it's most certainly not anything like vaporization tier, it's true we never actually seen the extent of his regeneration, and other nanomachine regenerators like Armstrong have some other feats like being able to reconnect lost limbs and body parts. Possibly higher I feel works, just not for the reason given.
>This is iffy considering that this seems exclusive to politicians into the Patriots conspiracy. A strong argument can be made if it can be shown that Armstrong is aware of the existence of mind readers like Psycho Mantis.
I'm pretty sure every higher up knew about Mantis, Mantis was actively employed and tasked by forces as low as the FBI, he was well known by most. And it was said most high ranking politicians or those that know a lot have them implanted. Armstrong not only knows a lot of ultra top secret info (I'm pretty sure he outright knows about the entirety of the patriot's plans and the like, despite that having been classified, being relevant as Mantis was the commander f The Patriot's lead and most advanced unit, the BB's), but he would be aware of psychics (as they arent actually a secret in verse, and it was more of a rule that they had implants to stop psychic leaks). Though, the only argue against this would be is if they stopped giving implants by the time Rising took place for some reason.
I agree with some of your points though, though some of it has already been discussed and agreed upon like resistance to thermal being enhanced senses and Deconstruction being a huge nope.
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Chariot and ShadowWhoWalks make sense regarding the abilities.
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Raiden: Invulnerability is a no. We do not give people invulnerability for tanking things that logically would have far lower AP than they have Dura. Resistance to Analytical Prediction is also a no. Analytical Prediction isn't a tangible ability like fire manip, it is a developed trait. Saying you resist analytical prediction is like saying you resist a guy's big muscles.
The Boss: How is dismantling a gun deconstruction? Deconstruction has to be supernaturally done, me breaking apart my Lego castle is not deconstruction. Resistance to CQC? Again, you don't get resistance to something that isn't outwardly supernatural. Surviving physical trauma and not getting knocked out is a Dura feat, not resistance.
Solid Snake: The resistance to precog thing I feel is dumb. If you're already giving Snake instinctive reactions, by default he would counter mind reading based precog since the man would not have to think to attack. The feat itself supports instinctive reactions more than anything.
Venom Snake: Minor nitpick but saying a mechanical part of your body gives you body control is a bit disingenuous. Machines were built to be articulate in the tasks they were meant to carry out, so it's not really control so much as it is being designed to do things that are out of the ordinary. My personal take is that Venom should just be left with cyborgization but this isn't a hill I really want to die on.
I'm not savvy on Part 3 stuff so I'll stay out of it for now.
The Boss: How is dismantling a gun deconstruction? Deconstruction has to be supernaturally done, me breaking apart my Lego castle is not deconstruction. Resistance to CQC? Again, you don't get resistance to something that isn't outwardly supernatural. Surviving physical trauma and not getting knocked out is a Dura feat, not resistance.
Solid Snake: The resistance to precog thing I feel is dumb. If you're already giving Snake instinctive reactions, by default he would counter mind reading based precog since the man would not have to think to attack. The feat itself supports instinctive reactions more than anything.
Venom Snake: Minor nitpick but saying a mechanical part of your body gives you body control is a bit disingenuous. Machines were built to be articulate in the tasks they were meant to carry out, so it's not really control so much as it is being designed to do things that are out of the ordinary. My personal take is that Venom should just be left with cyborgization but this isn't a hill I really want to die on.
I'm not savvy on Part 3 stuff so I'll stay out of it for now.
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Agreed.
Agreed.
The whole IR and precog shit is convoluted as is. Though, they aren't actually related, IR had nothing to do with beating Mantis and Precog resistance had nothing to do with IR, it's complicated and personally, I'm done arguing Mantis precog shit, it's not exactly straightforward so I'm at the point if others agree I'm fine with but otherwise I'm indifferent.
Venom Body Control via his arm is a case of technicality, depends where you draw the line between what's his body or not. I've seen some profiles treat things like prosthetics and cybernetic enhancements as body control and others that dont. It's a case of technicality so it's mostly just whatever we decide to list it as, given it could be either, even if the actual ability itself (that is, remote control rocket punch) is legit.
Agreed.
The whole IR and precog shit is convoluted as is. Though, they aren't actually related, IR had nothing to do with beating Mantis and Precog resistance had nothing to do with IR, it's complicated and personally, I'm done arguing Mantis precog shit, it's not exactly straightforward so I'm at the point if others agree I'm fine with but otherwise I'm indifferent.
Venom Body Control via his arm is a case of technicality, depends where you draw the line between what's his body or not. I've seen some profiles treat things like prosthetics and cybernetic enhancements as body control and others that dont. It's a case of technicality so it's mostly just whatever we decide to list it as, given it could be either, even if the actual ability itself (that is, remote control rocket punch) is legit.
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Actually, in regards to Mantis', I checked. In lore (I specify lore and in universe, because the meta reason is he switched ports), the reason why Solid could beat Mantis is that he completely emptied his mind and didnt think about anything, as such, Mantis failed to read his mind and was able to be hit.
That can be used as justification for Instinctive Reactions, at least when he needs to, the reasoning proposed in the OP with a hyper specific spiteful reason for him deciding to use CQC in 4 and him dodging a bullet he probably would've seen coming in a likely noncanon game is kinda flimsy or just hyperspecific. Him explicitly clearing his mind of all thoughts and then fighting and doing complex maneuvers despite having zero cognizant action for those actions is a drastically better example. It also doubles as resistance to mind reading (well, he doesnt resist it, it just becomes completely useless).
That can be used as justification for Instinctive Reactions, at least when he needs to, the reasoning proposed in the OP with a hyper specific spiteful reason for him deciding to use CQC in 4 and him dodging a bullet he probably would've seen coming in a likely noncanon game is kinda flimsy or just hyperspecific. Him explicitly clearing his mind of all thoughts and then fighting and doing complex maneuvers despite having zero cognizant action for those actions is a drastically better example. It also doubles as resistance to mind reading (well, he doesnt resist it, it just becomes completely useless).
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Where did you find that? I'm curious
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CODEC. Colonel is like "You gotta completely empty your mind so Mantis can't read it. You know anyway of doing that?". I'm paraphrasing but that's basically what was said, the way being switching the ports, but at least we know inuniverse Solid cleared his mind of any thoughts so Mantis wouldnt know how to react by mind reading, ergo, all of Solid's actions were done with literally zero thinking. Basically bootleg Ultra Instinct.
Of course this gets into weird ass meta given Snake cleared his mind to "become a blank slate", via switching controller ports so Mantis couldnt read the inputs but, eh, if switching ports turns Solid into a "blank slate" to get around mind reading, ie, his mind is a blank slate, and thus he didnt put any cognitive thought into his moves, as if he did, Mantis would have read them (literally the entire point there). So it still works, though thats the issue with talking about Mantis, in MGS1/4, almost everything he does has a meta twist to it so it's hard to gauge what's usable or not, this should be fine though as the end result was a blank slate Snake, who could act and react as if he was normal.
Of course this gets into weird ass meta given Snake cleared his mind to "become a blank slate", via switching controller ports so Mantis couldnt read the inputs but, eh, if switching ports turns Solid into a "blank slate" to get around mind reading, ie, his mind is a blank slate, and thus he didnt put any cognitive thought into his moves, as if he did, Mantis would have read them (literally the entire point there). So it still works, though thats the issue with talking about Mantis, in MGS1/4, almost everything he does has a meta twist to it so it's hard to gauge what's usable or not, this should be fine though as the end result was a blank slate Snake, who could act and react as if he was normal.
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Huh, that's interesting. And yeah, it does sound like IR, and is honestly kinda badass
Also update on MGSV, I just slammed baby liquid snake on the floor face first 30 times and I think I like this game now
Also update on MGSV, I just slammed baby liquid snake on the floor face first 30 times and I think I like this game now
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I just finished MGSV last night, got that sweet platinum and it only took half of my life. Though in regards to CQC, wait till the Metallic Archea fight, Venom does jedi matrix moves, shit's ******* badass. I'd recommend working on getting The Legendary Gunsmith as well as tranq snipers and the stun arm, all three are helpful (plus the CGM25, it'll be crucial later).
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Would D-Dog and Young Liquid scale to Venom Snake? Random question, but might as well ask it.
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Would they? Venom was explicitly doing his best not to hurt Liquid, killing him, or any kid, is instant game over. Venom was holding back, and even while holding back still put him in his place as evidenced by the Side Op.
DD doesn't actually ever fight Venom or anyone of note, all he does is take out random soldiers. Against stronger enemies like TMOF or the SKULLS he can't do anything, and I'm pretty sure that's literal, I dont think the attack command even works against the Metalic Archea SKULL unit. Plus if you accidently hit DD with CQC he gets knocked clean on his ass. So I wouldn't scale young Liquid or DD to Venom, he's casually above both and actively holds back on the former.
Young Liquid scales above trained Diamond Dogs though, so even at a young age and untrained he's > adult trained soldiers.
DD doesn't actually ever fight Venom or anyone of note, all he does is take out random soldiers. Against stronger enemies like TMOF or the SKULLS he can't do anything, and I'm pretty sure that's literal, I dont think the attack command even works against the Metalic Archea SKULL unit. Plus if you accidently hit DD with CQC he gets knocked clean on his ass. So I wouldn't scale young Liquid or DD to Venom, he's casually above both and actively holds back on the former.
Young Liquid scales above trained Diamond Dogs though, so even at a young age and untrained he's > adult trained soldiers.
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Figured the same, just wanted to be sure, a White Mamba key for Liquid would be fairly interesting.
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What's left for us to discuss?
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More than you'd think.
The two biggest controversial things I think are the speed mech - cast scaling bullshit and RAY unit discrepancies.
Though, the more I look into the both the more I'm almost certain my original beliefs are right, in fact the Arsenal RAY's may even be better upgraded versions of the Marine RAY going by what's said in game. They're most certainly not downgrades that's for sure. And as for the former, that's only actually a issue if we go through with it.
There's also a few random abilities here and there in contention still like Instinctive Reaction, though whenever Twellas comes back on, I'm sure he'd be fine with the alternative justification I proposed, though I can't speak for him. Anyway, I'm fine with Instinctive Reaction now, just for a different reason then the reason proposed in the OP.
Probably some Venom / Big Boss scaling issues as well but I personally have no qualms with scaling them, Venom should have enough of his own feats and showings to place him in the same tier solidly, even if he's a tad weaker, it ain't enough to say he's certainly not on par, especially with his showings against SKULL units. Though the reason for his tier does need to be reiterated and changed.
The two biggest controversial things I think are the speed mech - cast scaling bullshit and RAY unit discrepancies.
Though, the more I look into the both the more I'm almost certain my original beliefs are right, in fact the Arsenal RAY's may even be better upgraded versions of the Marine RAY going by what's said in game. They're most certainly not downgrades that's for sure. And as for the former, that's only actually a issue if we go through with it.
There's also a few random abilities here and there in contention still like Instinctive Reaction, though whenever Twellas comes back on, I'm sure he'd be fine with the alternative justification I proposed, though I can't speak for him. Anyway, I'm fine with Instinctive Reaction now, just for a different reason then the reason proposed in the OP.
Probably some Venom / Big Boss scaling issues as well but I personally have no qualms with scaling them, Venom should have enough of his own feats and showings to place him in the same tier solidly, even if he's a tad weaker, it ain't enough to say he's certainly not on par, especially with his showings against SKULL units. Though the reason for his tier does need to be reiterated and changed.
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Yeah, Venom kinda ***** the skulls in CQC.
As for the RAY thing, I'm honestly on your side here. Same with Snake and Ocelot scaling with RAY because they pilot the damn things.
As for the RAY thing, I'm honestly on your side here. Same with Snake and Ocelot scaling with RAY because they pilot the damn things.
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I mean, it's outright said the Arsenal RAY's specifically use the Marine RAY as a base. For the most part they're exactly the same. The main difference being one's AI and one is manned. There's some other discrepancies, but from what we know, they're likely optimizations, not cutting corners.
Plus the fact they're mass produced doesn't matter, Mass producing Metal Gear's is normal for the verse, not to mention that was always the plan, to mass produce the Marine RAY to kill REX derivatives across the globe, and it was mass produced, but instead of using those models to kill REX, it was used to guard Arsenal, they're still the same models that were planned to kill REX.
Ergo. RAY=?=REX, regardless of which, they can all contend with each other, there's literally no reason to assume otherwise.
And the only way for speed scaling to not work is to make a ludicrous amount of assumptions, some of which dont add up as it was outright stated things like Solid was actively dodging and reacting, twice actually, one in CODEC and one in the middle of the fight. I could go on and into more detail on both but I'm glad you agree. (Plus things like the MKII, all it did was increase the throughput, which if anything makes Solid's reactions faster than REX's, as, ignoring REX doesn't have an AI and it's specifically stated that once the radome is gone, it becomes fully manually with zero computer input due to the cockpit being forced open, the throughput only applies after Snake inputs the commands manually, meaning he has to react fast enough to RAY to then input the commands and then have the inputs be registered by REX and then actually performed by the mecha. If we're saying RAY is Rel+, every single thing REX did was because Solid reacted and controlled REX accordingly).
Plus the fact they're mass produced doesn't matter, Mass producing Metal Gear's is normal for the verse, not to mention that was always the plan, to mass produce the Marine RAY to kill REX derivatives across the globe, and it was mass produced, but instead of using those models to kill REX, it was used to guard Arsenal, they're still the same models that were planned to kill REX.
Ergo. RAY=?=REX, regardless of which, they can all contend with each other, there's literally no reason to assume otherwise.
And the only way for speed scaling to not work is to make a ludicrous amount of assumptions, some of which dont add up as it was outright stated things like Solid was actively dodging and reacting, twice actually, one in CODEC and one in the middle of the fight. I could go on and into more detail on both but I'm glad you agree. (Plus things like the MKII, all it did was increase the throughput, which if anything makes Solid's reactions faster than REX's, as, ignoring REX doesn't have an AI and it's specifically stated that once the radome is gone, it becomes fully manually with zero computer input due to the cockpit being forced open, the throughput only applies after Snake inputs the commands manually, meaning he has to react fast enough to RAY to then input the commands and then have the inputs be registered by REX and then actually performed by the mecha. If we're saying RAY is Rel+, every single thing REX did was because Solid reacted and controlled REX accordingly).
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It's not like Snake doesn't have other bullshit Speed Feats or Scaling.
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To be fair, nothing that comes that close but not my concern if we actually use it. I'm entirely just saying it's both or neither, it cant be one or the other.
But Solid, Ocelot, Raiden, Solidus all have feats of reacting to and fighting RAY's and REX. In some cases like in MGS4 (and I guess MGS1 too), they're literally manually controlled by said characters. RAY's feat is just as much his as it its Ocelot, and same with Solid given that feat happens in the middle of the fight with them both reacting to and fighting each other, that move is no different then the other dozen Snake reacts too, in fact its literally the same move he reacts to a few dozen times. All that calc is is taking the speed RAY moves in comparison to the photon beam.
But Solid, Ocelot, Raiden, Solidus all have feats of reacting to and fighting RAY's and REX. In some cases like in MGS4 (and I guess MGS1 too), they're literally manually controlled by said characters. RAY's feat is just as much his as it its Ocelot, and same with Solid given that feat happens in the middle of the fight with them both reacting to and fighting each other, that move is no different then the other dozen Snake reacts too, in fact its literally the same move he reacts to a few dozen times. All that calc is is taking the speed RAY moves in comparison to the photon beam.
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