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After months, MONTHS in the works, the CRT is finally here.

Some of you may already know what this is going to be, but for those who haven't heard, here's a quick breakdown: The Metal Gear profiles are extremely lackluster, and I decided it was time to take a closer look at the whole verse, adding missing abilities, fixing scaling etc. It's going to be a LONG CRT, so bear with me.

For the sake of semplicity, I am going to devide the CRT in parts:
Part 1 will be dedicated to adding some non-controversial abilities. This will be the easiest part, since these abilities are either outright stated or shown to be present in the verse, so there won't be much to argue about.
Part 2 will be dedicated to controversial abilities, abilities that are either iffy, weird or require some consensus to be added. Both part 1 and 2 will be devided by character, since
Part 3 will cover some corrections to the existing profiles, such as fixing some justifications for abilities or weaknesses and adding weaponry.
Part 4 will be dedicated to 1 new feat that is going to severely impact the verse and needs to be debated.
Part 5 will be dedicated to proposing the creation of 2 new profiles for the verse.
Part 6 will be dedicated to a list of skill-feats i compiled, along with a skill-scaling-chain for most of the major characters in the verse.

Without further ado, let's do this.

PART 1

Big Boss: Minor death manipulation
(via the fake death pill, he can fake his own death), Status Effect Inducement (via equip and CQC, he stuns his opponents), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, healing is a whole mechanic in MGS3, no need to explain this), Accelerated Development (Skill and Statistics; went from being severely less skilled than The Boss to being at least comparable to her in a short timeframe, with The Boss herself confirming that he had gotten both stronger and more skilled since their last fight), Perception Manipulation (via Reflex Mode), Camouflage (Don't think i need to explain this), Sound Manipulation (The Spirit camo makes his steps completely silent and the Sneaking Suit dampens sound all around), Extrasensory Perception (via Sonic Eye and much of his equipment), Non Physical Interaction (can harm The Sorrow's ghosts throughout the bossfight). Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid Snake), Precognition (scaling from Solid Snake, I'll go into further detail about this ability when i talk about Snake's changes), Radiations (just like The Boss, he was an atomic-test subject, and as such, resistant to radiations), Sleep Inducement (resists The End's sleeping darts, which are even more powerful than his own, which are themselves capable of instantly putting people to sleep), Extrasensory Perception (the sneaking suit prevents him from being seen via thermal scanner).


Raiden: Accelerated Development (Skill, he became proficient with the HF Blade after a few minutes of using it, and we know from one of his Codec calls in MGR that he had never used a sword before), Air Manipulation (via Thunder Strike), Pseudo-Invulnerability (artillery fire bounces off his armour), Attack Reflection (can eject projectiles imbedded in his chest, also via Parry). Resistance to: Paralysis Inducement (can break free from Vamp's paralysis), Analytical Prediction (beat Vamp despite him being able to predict his movements by looking at his muscles)

The Boss: Minor Deconstruction (can disassemble any gun nigh-instantaneously without needing to disharm her opponent first), Resistance to: Radiations (she was the first person to be sent in space, because she could resist the cosmic rays without dying), Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), Status Effect Inducement (doesn't get stunned by Naked's CQC)

Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions (dodged Sniper Wolf's surprise-bullet [sniper rounds are super-sonic, he couldn't have been warned by the gunshot], instinctively uses CQC when he's getting attacked, despite him actively trying not to use it), Status Effect Inducement (just like Big Boss, from CQC and much of his equipment such as the Stun Knife), Camouflage (self explanatory), Accelerated Development (Skill, scaling from Big Boss, went from being skill-stomped by Ocelot to being able to contend with him), Superhuman Willpower (Naomi states that Snake shouldn't even be able to stand due to the state of his body, his strength of will keeps him together), Fouth-Wall Awareness (displayed countless times throughout the series, such as when he nods at the player in Twin Snakes, or when he recalls his game-overs in MGS4), Self Sustenance (Type 2, Limited Type 3, Snake's nanomachines replenish adrenaline, nutrition and sugar in his bloodstream. He was also injected with benzedrine, which keep him operational without needing to sleep for at leas 12 hours), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Extrasensory Perception (his Octo-camo masks his thermal reading), Precognition (It's made quite clear through the fight that Psycho Mantis CAN read Snake's mind, he outright does it here, but he couldn't read his future. His explaination for why this happens is that "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment", so from this we gather that Psycho Mantis can't read the future for someone who "lost his future", during her bossfight in MGS3, The Boss states "we're both slowly being eaten away by the karma of others, we'll never have the chance to die peacefully of old age, we have no tomorrow", which sounds ominously like what Psycho Mantis tells Snake, so Naked has this going for him beyond just scaling. Psycho Mantis saying "you are the same as us" also tells us that all the members of FOXHOUND would resist precognition)

Ocelot: Accelerated Development (Skill, became comparable to EG Naked skill-wise, though it's unclear whether this development accured during the Snake Eater Mission or if it began after tthe Virtuous Mission, a week before Snake Eater), Mind and Memory Manipulation (not combat applicable, but he can use it either on himself or others, as seen with Venom), Resistance to: Precognition (justified above).

Volgin: Danmaku (can shoot out many bullets simultaneously all around him), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), Status Effect Inducement (doesn't get stunned by Naked's CQC), High Temperatures (he can tank his own electricity, tanked a lightning at the end of MGS3).

Psycho Mantis: Immortality (Type 6. His ghost can posses inanimate objects, possessed Screaming Mantis after his death), Intangibility (displayed many times throughout MGS5), Resistance to: High Temperatures (can stai right next to The Man on Fire without ripercussions), Precognition (justified above).

Vamp: Immortality (Type 2. He survives fatal injuries even before regenerating them, such as getting stabbed through the heart), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Raiden's tranq-gun in MGS2).

Venom Snake: Minor Body Control (due to his arm, which he can shoot out and move in unnatural ways), Status Effect Inducement (via CQC and equipment), BFR (via Fulton-portals), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, via various means), Extrasensory Perception (via sonar).

Liquid: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Precognition (justified above).

Solidus:
Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss)

Gray Fox: Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (will be justified below, but here it is )

All Modern-Nanomachines Users (MGS4-MGR): Resistance to: Empathic and Pain Manipulation (nanomachines can suppress hormones in order to suppress emotions, along with neutralizing pain), Self Sustenance (Type 2, limited 3; should scale above Snake's first-gen nanomachines), Nanotechnology (self explanatory I think).
The characters to get these abilities would be Vamp, Ocelot, and All MGR characters.

All MGR Characters (Cyborgs): Martial Arts Mastery
(self explanatory), Immortality (Type 2. We are told by Raiden that the Gemini, 2 very low-tier cyborgs, survived their encounter with Sundowner, which left both of them cut into pieces, with one of the 2 being decapitated. Dok states that the Winds of Destruction can even survive complete physical destruction as long as the brain stays intact, which allows them to inhabit a spare body), Self Sustenance (Type 1. Cyborgs can operate for short periods of time without breathing, but in case they are unable to breathe for whatever reason, they are equipped with a supply of liquid oxygen in their bloodstream to keep them going. Likely Type 2 and Limited Type 3, their nanomachines should scale vastly above Snake's), At Least Partial Inorganic Physiology (Raiden, along with all of the WODs have a completely cybernetic body, whose only organic part is the brain. Blade Wolf should get fully inorganic physiology due to not having any organic parts).

This is it for Part 1, 5 more to go. Told ya this would be long


PART 2

Big Boss: BFR (with normal Fulton, it takes the opponent about 500 feet into the air, this could be considered a BFR, but it would be reinforced if my second "controversial ability" gets approved), He should get Venom's equipment (he was still in contact with the Mother Base crew, so it's not a stretch to say that he would have had access to their weapons and equipment).

Volgin: Immortality (Type 2. He has a gunshot wound in his forehead during his last fight, he also survived his "death" in MGS3 and got turned into The Man on Fire)

Man on Fire: Regeneration (Mid-High. Upon getting sprayed with water, his body is vaporized. The reason why I put it as "controversial" is that it's not made very clear whether this is regeneration or just him teleporting away, however, we can hear him scream in pain as he gets vaporized, so I don't think it's just him teleporting, especially when this effect never happens again despite him teleporting around a whole lot).

Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)

Vamp: A "Possibly Higher" Key for his Regeneration (Snake implies that anything short of complete physical vaporization won't be enough to surpass Vamp's regeneration. Now, THIS is very iffy, but I decided to still present it just because if it was approved it would be huge. The statement is pretty clear really, it's just a matter of "is it enough to grant Vamp this ability?"

Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (politicians who know secret codes are given surgical implants that allow them to resist Psycho Mantis' mind-probe. Now, does Armstrong know some secret code? Maybe, he's a senator, he might very well be aware of something that would warrant a mental insulation, we simply don't have a canonical statement about it)

And part 2 is done, 4 more to go


PART 3

Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect: the justification for Extraordinary Genius on the wiki is "At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers", as his profile itself states, Ocelot basically orchestrated most of the MGS plot, an unimmaginably complex plan, with an unbelievable amount of variables, that ended up working exactly as he had planned. He also outsmarted the Shadow Patriots, a group of Super AIs responsible for basically running every aspect of the modern world, along with being at least 2 steps ahead of every world government at any point in time. Along with this, he's also just about as skilled as Big Boss in h2h combat, he's quite possibly the best sharpshooter in the verse if we only consider skill and ignore physiological advantages; he's an expert in hypnosis, psychotherapy, drugs, espionage and interrogation, capable of doublethinking.
This same profile-change can be argued for The Boss. The Boss' leadership, good judgment and will were deemed sharp enough for her consciousness to be taken as model for an AI charged of singlehandedly managing the world's nuke deterrance. Big Boss could be argued aswell, but from what i know, he doesn't really have this kind of feat.
His justification for his enhanced senses is off: The ability is actually allright, it's just that he didn't smell that Tatyana was a spy, he just smelt the gasoline on her clothes

Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off: I have no idea where "he tends to underestimate others" and "he's not academically smart" come from. If anything. both Big Boss and Venom, I'll talk about his weakness section being off later, have a tendency to NOT underestimate others, such as Naked being very much weary of EVA even after she helped him multiple times, or Venom dislocating Eli's arm, someone who was objectively not even close to being a threat to him, just to be sure that he wouldn't mess around anymore. I guess this concept of Big Boss "underestimating people" comes from him underestimating Snake in MG1, but for one, that's not enough to warrant a whole ass weakness, it only happened once and doesn't present itself as a negative trend he has, and 2, it wasn't even him who underestimated Snake, it was Venom, so this weakness makes absolutely no sense. Him not being academically smart just baffles me, most if not all of these scenes are for comic relief, and we have instances of him referencing Descartes, along with his creating and supervising multiple successfull military nations. At most he's not knowledgeable about pop culture, not knowing about any movie, and thinking that Strangelove had actually starred in the Strangelove movie.

Venom: His tier should be "Likely 8-B", not plain 8-B: The justification for his tiering right now is that he "briefly matched volgin and is a convincing doppelganger of Big Boss", there are a few problems here: 1- when did he "briefly match Volgin"? Because if you look at the game, The Man on Fire is mostly presented as an unwinnable bossfight, and he can insta-kill Venom if he gets to him, and they might be referring to this scene, but if that's the case, when did he "breifly match" him? All I see is Volgin pushing him to the ground and Venom getting overpowered, the only reason Volgin got off him is because he had realized that Venom was not Naked Snake. So no, there's no instance of Venom "matching" Volgin. Problem number 2 lies in "is a convincing doppelgange of Big Boss", the problem is that he's not convincing to anyone who's close enough to Big Boss to notice the difference, Ocelot was in on the whole thing and we are told in the Truth Tapes that so was Miller, nobody else in the crew would be close enough to Big Boss to notice the difference; he's convincing to normal soldiers, yes, but normal soldiers don't really know what Big Boss is fully capable of. This is at best a justification for a "Likely" rating, which is what i propose here, since he doesn't plainly scale to anyone we know for a fact is 8-B.
His weaknesses are completely off: He has the same weaknesses as Big Boss, which I've already debunked, but ironically enough, Venom's profile doesn't have ANY of Venom's huge, glaring and unique weaknesses: the Ground Zeroes accident left him filled with metallic shards near his heart and brain, the big shard on his forehead may cause permanent brain damage if moved. He suffered enough brain damage that he forgot how to speak russian and has hallucinations due to the shard pressing on his optic nerve. The current weakness section should be changed to reflect all of these elements, which would be extremely relevant in VS threads btw, since anyone who has metal manip can just instantly kill him by messing with his brain or heart shards.

Quiet: She should also get a "Likely 8-B" rating: Now let's look at Quiet, shall we? Her justification is "Overpowered Big Boss before she even received her Parasite, Revolver Ocelot stated that if Quiet wanted, she could have easily killed him, Venom Snake, and everyone on Mother Base", and i have issues with every one of these arguments: First off: She never overpowered Big Boss, this is the full extent of their battle, and at most, she threw him off her back, which doesn't classify as "overpowering" since it's not even like she broke his grip, she just torque her whole body and threw him away, that's it; Then, since I already went over Venom's "Likely" status, her scaling to him is not enough for a full blown tier. Ocelot's statement also has its problems, since he NEVER specifies that she's going to kill them via AP and not guns or even her hax, this is just too vague to be a justification for a full tier. She should get a "Likely 8-B" tier just like Venom.

Psycho Mantis: He actually can break the 4th wall on PS3: Very simple: Psycho Mantis' profile states that "his ability to break the fourth wall only works on the first generation Playstation's hardware", but this is simply incorrect, he CAN break the 4th wall in MGS4 (he talksa bout memory cards, controllers and hardware, which are all clearly 4th-wall-breaking elements), it's simply that he cannot EFFECT the 4th wall anymore, his weakness section should be updated accordingly.
Genius Level Intellect: The FOXHOUND unit along with the Genome Army is wholly composed of geniuses with IQs over 180, this would obviously include Psycho Mantis. This statement isn't the only supporting evidence for such a tier; he was the one who concucted the entirety of the Shadow Moses plot, which ended up working even after his death and the FOXDIE virus.

Vamp: Missing weakness: Vamp's profile should list the fact that he has a deathwish and seeks someone capable of ending his life for good. This is kind of the whole point of his character in MGS2 and 4, I have no idea how this was not already included

Liquid: His durability justification is completely off: The tiering is completely fine of course, but his justification is "Survived his Hind D crashing, multiple Stinger missiles to REX's cockpit, its subsequent destruction, which knocked out Snake, without issue, and similarly tanked a fall from the top of REX that would've killed Snake, making him more durable"; the part about the Hind D and Stinger missiles is fine (although I have a bone to pick with the concept of Snake's weaponry scaling to REX, but i'll get to that later), but the part about REX' destruction kncking Snake out is simply inaccurate, since we see that he got knocked out due to violently hitting his head, there were no signs of him getting knocked-out before that. The part about the fall is just dumb. We have no proof other than his word that Snake would die to that fall, and if he actually did, it would be complete and utter PIS, it's far more likely that Liquid's statement is simply a way to give the player a reason why Snake can't just jump down and run away. Liquid already has more than enough reasons to have that level of durability, these justifications are both inaccurate and superfluous.

Armstrong: His weakness is off:
I'll cut straight to the chase: "His nanomachines can run out of power" should be removed. The aforementioned Kojima interview is nowhere to be found, it's never mentioned neither in-game nor on the strategy books and the concept of "nanomachines running out of power" was never a thing, since even obsolete Gen 1 nanomachines recharge via body-heat and don't run out of power; one could argue that Armstrong's nanomachines are more active than Snake's, but I could say that Vamp's are even more active (I think anyone would agree with me that regenerating a splattered brain is a much more complex a task than just "hardening"), and they were never even remotely implied to run out of power. This notion goes against every know property nanomachines have, is not present in any canon source and the interview can't be found anywhere, and even if it were, by virtue of contradicting the established canon of the verse, it couldn't be taken as valid.

The MGR Cast: An "At least Class G" Lifting strength instead of plain Class G: Raiden's Class G feat was performed by a fodder body with only one arm, his Patriots and Customized bodies scale massively above that, massively enough to warrant an "At Least" rating.
Their speed scaling is a mess: I'm responsible for this, and I'm sorry, but I don't know what I was thinking while I made those changes. The WODS scale to Raiden's Sub-Rel rating, which comes from Armstrong, who got this tier by blocking an attack from Raiden that is 10 times faster than base Raiden, which means that Base Raiden's current speed scales to an attack which is canonically ten times faster than Raiden by its very nature; this makes absolutely no sense, especially when we consider that Armstrong is supposed to be slower than Raiden and there is no canonical proof of Raiden going Ripper Mode in that fight. I propose that we at least revert their speed to "At least Missevely Hypersonic+" and then add the various keys for BM's multipliers. Now, since this CRT is going to propose a new speed-feat, this "Massively Hypersonic+" could become something else, but that's an argument for a later time.

Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key: Why would this be needed? because MGS4 REX is faster than his MGS1 version, fast enough to match RAY. But RAY is just as fast as MGS1 REX, right? Why would that be needed? Well, I'll talk about that later, but i think you can get a hint from the next change to REX' profile.
Missing Weaponry: Free Electron Laser: Otacon states that REX has a Free Electron Laser mounted on his belly, which is what it uses here, btw. Now, according to this, this laser's speed is 0.9999998c, which i don't know if we can round up to LS or we gotta keep at Relativistic+. The addition of this weapon also influences REX' combat speed, obviously, which would become "Likely Subsonic, Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed with Rail Gun, Relativistic+ (or LS, we'll see) with FEL".

Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY: I realize this is a big thing to say, but hear me out: Otacon outright states that none of Snake's weapons (this would include the Stinger, since he already had the at that point, he had used it to take down the Hind D) can pierce REX' armor. What Otacon proposes is too destroy the Radome, so that Liquid has to open the cockpit, and Snake can bypass the armor. But doesn't this mean that the Stinger can actually damage REX? Not really, Otacon himself admits that he had willingly given REX a weak spot (the Radome) as a way to make it "complete". Pretty lousy excuse, but that's what it is, and it makes sense, because if the Stinger can damage REX, and Liquid can canonically tank Stinger missiles in that same fight, it would mean that Liquid is just as durable as REX, which is stupid. So no, the Stinger doesn't scale to 8-A, and MGS1 Snake's weaponry doesn't quite reach that level of power. What about Raiden though? After all, he outright destroys several RAY units, right? Yeah, that's true, and my issue is not with the way in which he takes them down, my issue is that the RAY units Raiden fought don't really have a reason to be 8-A. The justification on the profile is that it's "Designed to destroy REX units and is comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden", let's analyze this piece by piece. "Designed to destroy REX units"; this is true, but there's a huge but: this is only true of the original Marines model, which was stolen by Ocelot and later used in MGS4, the RAY units Raiden fought were yes based on the Marine's concept, but it was redesigned to guard Arsenal Gear, instead of fighting other Metal Gears; this means that they were redesigned with the idea of fighting normal human tech such as tanks, jets etc, the Patriots had no reason to optimize RAY against other Metal Gears, since there were no other operationa Metal Gears around during MGS2. TL;DR: There's no way to be certain that the version of RAY Raiden fought scales to REX. The problem with "comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden" is quite evident: this is MGS2, MGS4 Raiden wasn't even a thing at that time. Add to all of this the fact that the Patriots had organized the whole thing so that Raiden would win, and you can easily see how it's not really possible to have those RAYs scale to REX.
So to sum this argument up: Snake only damaged REX via a weak spot, and the RAY units Raiden took down don't scale to 8-A.

Metal Gear RAY: New Keys:
In light of the aforementioned changes, it's quite clear that some changes have to be made to RAY's keys. My proposal is that we remove the MGS2 key and only leave the MGS4 and MGR ones, with a note down below that specifies how the models that Raiden fought in MGS2 can't be properly tiered and that the unit that was stated to be made as an anti-REX weapon was the one used in MGS4.

This should be it for part 3, now let's get to the really saucy part.


PART 4

Metal Gear RAY dodges REX' Free Electron Laser:
The feat doesn't happen in a cutscene, but in gameplay, you can see it happen right here. If we go frame-by-frame, which I did, we see that RAY only starts to move AFTER the beam is fired. I got this feat calc'd, but it still needs to be evaluated, here is the calc, and the result is 0,72c, Relativistic+.
Honestly, it kinda makes sense that RAY, which is designed to outmaneuver REX, would be able to dodge REX' most advanced and lethal weapon.
Now, I don't think this is considerable an outlier, for one, this is the ONLY speed feat we have for RAY, and we know for a fact that it's a speed-based Metal Gear, far faster than REX (that is, before Otacon came up with some bullshit mumbo jumbo to make REX faster, but tbh, this in itself is proof that REX wouldn't stand a change speed-wise without a significant boost). Secondly, it's worth noting that this feat doesn't hinder the scaling in any way, since only MGR characters (who are consistently shown to be bafflingly faster than anything else in the verse already, hell, even fodder cyborgs such as Gray Fox can completely FTE the fastest humans and be basically invisible to them. I'm not saying that Gray Fox scales to this feat, obviously, I'm just pointing out the fact that even fodder Cyborgs can run circles around the "Massively Hypersonic"s of the verse) and MGS4 REX scale to it, so the jump from Massively Hypersonic to Relativistic makes sense, especially when Raiden's speed rating comes from a feat he performed extremely casually, and even by taking that casual feat, he would be able to reac Sub-Relativistic speeds with Blade Mode (via its canon multipliers). Raiden's (and all of the MGR Cast's really) speed tier doesn't fully reflect what they are actually capable of, this feat would give us a tier to which Patriots Raiden scales equally, not casually.

If this feat is approved, it will scale to MGS4 and MGR RAY (MGR RAY is outright stated to be a superior model to the MGS4 one), MGS4 REX, Raiden in his Patriots and Custom Body (Patriots Body can fight RAY, Custom Body can fight Sam), Blade Wolf (scales to Raiden), Jetstream Sam (scales massively above the Patriots Body and fought RAY) , Sundowner (scales to Raiden), Mistral (scales to Raiden), Monsoon (scales to Raiden), Armstrong (scales to Raiden) and EXCELSUS (somewhat scales to Raiden).

This is it for part 4, i originally wanted to include another "feat", but then i realized that it involved way too much speculation involved and removed it.


PART 5

Peace Walker:

Abilities: Large size (type 0, it's 25 meters tall in his bipedal mode and around 16 meters when in its quadrupedal mode), Inorganic Physiology, Genius Intelligence (has an expert AI based on The Boss), Fire Manipulation (has a flamethrower), Explosion Manipulation (via missiles, rockets and mines), Electromagnetism Manipulation (it has a EM pulse field), Acrobatics (can jump very high), Sound Manipulation (can let out high pitched screams capable of stunning its opponents), Paralysis Inducement (has a paralysing beam), Self Destruction (Has a self-destruct function).
AP: At Least 8-B physically (can harm Big Boss with its leg-swipes), At Least Low 7-B with Intercontinental Missiles (Peace Walker's missiles have one-Megaton warheads, Missiles usually have more than 1 warhead on them, up to 14, hence the "at least" rating), At Least 7-B with Self-Destruction, likely far higher (Peace Walker has a Self-Destruct function with a massive Hydrogen Bomb that's more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, Real Life Hydrogen Bombs could pack anywhere from 100 Megatons all the way up to several Gigatons, hence the "likely far higher", especially since PW's Hydrogen Bomb is noted to be "massive").
Speed: Peak Human Travel Speed (Can reach 25 mph in running speed) With High Hypersonic+ Combat speed and Massively Hypersonic Reactions (Scaling from Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Class 1 (Can support its own weight, which is 500 short tons).
Striking Strength: At Least City Block class (Can harm Big Boss)
Durability: At Least 8-B (Completely impervious to anything but Big Boss' best weaponry), Possibly 7-B for its Inner Barrier (Huey was extremely unsure whether a nuke could breach the inner barrier or not, stating that it was designed to be "as strong as a bomb shelter" and to "withstand a nuclear war", since MG is a more scientifically advanced setting, it would be fair to assume that nukes in MG woud be equivalent to our high-tier nukes).
Stamina: Unknown, possibly Infinite (It's completely mechanical and doesn't seem to need any fuel to operate).
Range: Tens of meters with melee attacks, hundreds of meters with rockets and weaponry, at least tens of kilometers with Hydrogen Bomb, hundreds of kilometers with Intercontinental missiles.
Standard Equipment: Missiles, S-mines, Flamethrower, EM pulse-field, Paralysis beam, Intercontinental Missiles, Hydrogen Bomb
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius (PW is an Expert AI based on The Boss).
Weaknesses: Can only launch a nuclear missile or attack as self defense, shutting down the Mammal Pod will greatly hinder its thought pattern and combat capabilities



The Sorrow:

Abilities: Intangibility (Immaterial; he is a ghost), Invisibility (only visible by those he wishes to be seen by), Self Sustenance (1,2 and 3 due to being a ghost), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 7 and 6 scaling from Psycho Mantis), Death and Life Manipulation (Kills upon making contact with his corpse, brough Naked Snake back to life),BFR (Can take people into the "other side", the world of the dead), Summoning (He summons the ghosts of those killed by the target, but he can also summon his own ghosts), Power Absorption (Can channel the spirits of the dead and utilize their skills), Minor Reality Warping (Can crack and repair his glasses, as well as crying blood from his left eye and materializing flying clocks), True Flight (he flies around), Teleportation (He regularly appears from thin air), Weather Manipulation (It rains whenever he appears), Energy Projection (displayed here), Possession (Scaling from Psycho Mantis), 4th Wall Breaking (Displayed continuously throughout MGS3, such as him remarking "back again?" after the player dies and loads the game), Soul Manipulation (Vanquished Psycho Mantis' soul), Precognition (foretold Big Boss' fate of being killed by his son, scaling to Psucho Mantis).
AP: Likely 8-B (can harm Big Boss with his Energy Projection), bypasses durability with many of his abilities.
Speed: Likely Supersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reactions (likely scales to Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Unknown.
Striking Strength: Unknown.
Durability: Unknown (Intangibility makes him hard to hit).
Stamina: Likely Infinite (His stamina bar is completely empty, just like his health bar).
Range: Extended melee range with Energy Projection.
Standard Equipment: His own corpse.
Intelligence: Genius
(As a member of the Cobra Unit in life, he was an incredibly skilled soldier, capable of predicting the course of any battle by talking to the dead beforehand), in death, he seems to have acquired a sort of Omniscience, showing knowledge on things he would have no true way of knowing, such as perfectly knowing (down to the tens of seconds) the time it would take the C3 to detonate, or knowing the combination to Snake's cell-door before Snake had even been assigned to said cell.
Weaknesses: Consumed by sorrow, doesn't usually interfere with the material world.

Why should these profiles be added? Well, peace Walker has a whole game named after it, The Sorrow is just a very powerful and unique character that would bring a lot of value to the verse.

Now on to the last part (finally, jesus christ this took me a week to write down), unfortunately, the last one migh just be the longest.


PART 6

Skill Feats

- Naked Snake fodderized the Ocelot Unit along with Ocelot himself, the Ocelot unit being an elite group composed of the very best among the Spetznaz rank, with EVA stating that their skills with weapons is the stuff of legends and Ocelot of course being superior to them. This same Naked Snake would then go on to get absolutely stomped by The Boss
- Liquid Snake joined the SAS as an 18 year-old, the youngest in history, and excelled in everything
- Even as a 12 year-old, Liquid managed to organize a group of child soldiers into a fierce army capable of taking over settlements. Eli could even outmaneuver and overpower fully grown Diamond Dogs soldiers without any formal training, requiring the intervention of Ocelot in order to stop him.
- According to the official MGS' website's "Versus Battle" (which are now basically impossible to find, but are all listed in the MGS wiki) The Cobra Unit could have singlehandedly won WW2, their missions being so top secret that not even their corpse could be left
- The Boss is usually referred to as "The Mother of Special Forces", this is due to the fact that she either directly or indirectly laid the foundation for every form of special unit in the world, with Zero outright stating that she was the one who put together Rayforce and L Detachment, which laid the groundwork for today's SAS
- Volgin was a boxing champion as a young adult, despite this, he gets completely skill-stomped by Naked and he's terrified of The Boss' combat prowess

- The End invented sniping as a whole and all of its techniques, passing his knowledge onto The Boss. Naked Snake managed to outsnipe him while having a physiological (due to The End's parasite, he was naturally gifted as a sniper) and locational (The End could speak to the forest itself, Snake had never sniped in a forest before) disadvantage
- Venom Snake is merely the best MSF soldier, nothing implies that he's as skilled as Big Boss, as he was only hypnotized into thinking he had done what Big Boss had done. We know from Naomi that genes are the most important factor to a soldier's skill and Venom was only a normal human, as such automatically less skilled than those with Big Boss' genes. This is demonstrated by Eli being capable of outskilling and overpowering fully grown soldiers despite having no training and a rookie Solid Snake being able to beat Venom himself
- Venom Snake outsniped Quiet despite her having a physiological advantage over him and an advantage position
- Raiden had a record-breaking killcount at age 10, he became the leader of a personal unit at that same age. His effectiveness and ruthlessness got him the nickname "Ripper"
- Sundowner invented his own fighting style and is experienced in Chinese swordfighting
- CQC is composed of many martial arts, like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Kali, this video goes into detail into every martial art that CQC is shown to contain; on top of them, CQC would also include all of the martial arts used in the army and special forces, as most of them were created by The Boss, the co-creator of CQC.

Scaling Chain

Venom Snake<Rookie Solid<=Genome Soldiers<Solidus<Raiden<Liquid=FOXHOUND<=MGS1,2,Solid<MGS4 Solid<<MGS4 Ocelot=End of MGS3 Ocelot<=End of MGS4 Solid <The Boss<Big Boss

There are some points that are worth explaining here. First off, why did i put Venom at the bottom? Well, the first thing we gotta set is that Venom is not equal to Big Boss in terms of skills, nowhere is this stated in MGS5, Venom was merely the best MSF soldier and he was only hypnotized into thinking he had the same experiences as Big Boss, I don't think I need to tell you how being hypnotized into thinking you experienced something is not comparable to actually experiencing it. There's also the matter of the "soldier genes", which automatically make the "user" exponentially more skilled than anyone else, as displayed with Eli and a Rookie Solid Snake, who actually beat Venom Snake.
Why don't i automatically put Snake above Big Boss? After all, Snake beat him in MG2, right? Yeah, kinda, but let's keep in mind that in MG2 Snake fought a very old and washed Big Boss. The idea of MG2 Solid Snake being better than Big Boss is also pretty much completely debunked by what happens in MGS4.
Why the Genome Soldiers above rookie Snake? To be honest, they aren't really listed as "above" him, merely "possibly slightly better", mainly due to the Genome Soldiers having more training than Snake along with the Soldier Gene.
MGS4 Solid is listed as above MGS1,2 Solid because of the fact that in MGS1 and 2 he was willingly "nerfing" himself by not using CQC, which is a HUGE part of his combat arsenal, so despite being physically weaker, MGS4 Snake is significantly more skilled than his MGS1 and 2 self.
Ocelot skill-stomped Snake into the ground, and no, it wasn't due to Snake being weaker or anything of the sorts, because Ocelot had the same physical age as Snake, Snake had the muscle suit to boost his attributes and Ocelot straight up states "But when it comes to CQC, I've got the upper hand", so no, AP had nothing to do with it.
Why do I list MGS4 Ocelot as equal to EOMGS3 Ocelot? Well, it's because neither would really be "peak" Ocelot: In MGS4 Ocelot hadn't fought h2h in at least 20 years, so saying he was rusty is an understatement, whereas in MGS3 Ocelot had just learnt CQC, which means that he wouldn't logically be as good as his, let's say, MGS5 self. So yeah, I think it's reasonable to say that MGS4 Ocelot would be AT BEST equal to MGS3 Ocelot if not weaker; yeah, it's a speculation on my part, but an oculated one, I think.
Why do I put EOMGS4 Snake below The Boss and Big Boss? Due to Big Boss' substantially better performance against Ocelot. As I've said, I consider MGS3 and MGS4 Ocelot to be equal skill-wise, which, conveniently, is quite handy when it comes to comparing Snake and Big Boss. Snake Barely beat Ocelot, with their fight ending in a slug-fest and mainly due to Ocelot being effected by FOXDIE; while yes, this shows that Snake has become superior to Ocelot, it demonstrates that the gap isn't that big, they are more comparable than anything else. Big Boss on the other hand cleanly beat Ocelot, and he wasn't even fighting seriously, while yes, Ocelot does kinda hold his own, it's mostly due to Big Boss beng surprised by his usage of CQC, and even then, it's quite clear that Snake had the upper hand.
The Boss is above MGS4 Snake due to scaling to a serious Big Boss, making her scale significantly above MGS3 Ocelot and so on and so forth.
There are a few things I'd like to point out about some of the characters I left out: The Cobras would be above FOXHOUD IMO due to better statements and feats overall, whereas the WODs are a bit more tricky, since they are blade focussed and not h2h like every other quantifiable MG character, but I'll try nontheless. The starting point in regards to swordsmanship in MG is Solidus. We don't know much about his skills, what we know is that he was in the CIA, that he's the perfect clone of Big Boss and that he's very fond of blades; this is enough to place him around the level of the best swordsmen in the world, due to the Soldier Gene. MGS2 Raiden beat him quite cleanly. Now, MGS4 Raiden scales way, WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY above MGS2 Raiden in terms of swordsmanship, which is not only pretty evident from his fight scenes, but also by the fact that he had traveled all around the world to hone his skills. Patriots Body Raiden would be at least equal to that, if not superior. Sam absolutely fodderized him, and the WODs would be less skilled than Sam, but still comparable to him, which means that the WODs in general scale massively above Patriots Body Raiden. MGR Raiden then scales to Sam, and this closes the skill chain.


Solidus<MGS2 Raiden<MGS4 Raiden<=Patriots Raiden<<WODs<Sam<=MGR Raiden

Now, this scaling chain is not a gospel, there could be something wrong, and make your proposals if you want to.


Finally done.
I don't even know if anyone will be willing to read through ALL of this, but still, hope someone does.


In case you have any doubts or you don't agree with something, we can debate this.
 
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It's quite straight forward really, in MG, "losing" your future, be it via suffering great trauma or losing everything you love, makes you resistant to having your future read
 
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To be fair, I've been working on this since before the Forum move had even begun.
What about the controversial abilities? Anything to say about those?
 
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Lots of this look good but, status effect inducement via CQC isn't a thing, he's just knocking them out cold, literally every profile on the wiki bar a few would have that if simply hitting someone hard to knock them out qualifies, it doesn't though. Maybe via his electrical stun weapons though could work.

Extrasensory Perception via some of his equipment doesn't work, because that's not what it is. Though, they'd still be abilities, just that it would fall under a subcategory of Enhanced Senses, not Extrasensory Perception. Though Big Boss can see the sorrow and the like anyway, so extrasensory perception for him and Solid (could see Mantis' ghost) works anyway, just for a different reason.

Resistance to extrasensory perception via thermal isn't a thing, it'd be resistance to, well, thermal vision, which is under enhanced senses, so it'd be resistance to that instead.

The rest for Big Boss is fine, though technically all are, just gotta tweak the reasons a bit as mentioned.
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Change resistance to paralysis to minor resistance and remove invulnerability and it's good to go. (Invulnerability isn't given for durability anymore, even if it's drastic, you need an actual ability or something like Veemon to qualify).
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For the Boss minor deconstruction doesn't qualify, she's not using deconstruction in the way the wiki uses it as an ability, which is basically a subset of matter manipulation.
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Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions
This one is iffy, neutral on it, I'll think on it.

Status Effect Inducement
For CQC, nah, but for his stun knife? It'd work, so it can be listed on the profile, just not via CQC.

Extrasensory Perception
as said above, that falls under enhanced senses, so it'd be a resistance, just not to that category.
Precognition
That's actually a meta 4th wall break as to why he couldn't, but, it works, so yeah, Solid and Big Boss would resist psychokinetic precognitive abilities.

The rest is fine.
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Ocelot is all fine.
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Volgin is mostly fine, though said lightning bolt kinda fried his ass and Mantis had to reanimate him. He is fine being near his own lightning most of the time so I guess?
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Mantis is fine, i'd say his possession would be limited though, but in MGS5 he does it like a dozen times on the fly so it's all good.
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Vamp is good.
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For Venom, as usual, CQC aint status effect inducement, but he has a bunch of other shit that qualifies so it'd still be listed. Extrasensory Perception via sonars aint a thing, it'd be enhanced senses and in a few cases, Sound/Air manip due to how some sonars function. Rest is fine though.
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For nanomachines, yeah that's all fine, though it'd be strictly biological empath and pain manip, it's still resistance though so all that is good to add.
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For Cyborgs, that's all fine.
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Big Boss 2, BFR is fine, though it obviously should be explained in detail. And yeah, he obviously has all of Venom's equipment, maybe not on hand at all times, but he has access to all of it.
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Volgin 2, The Man on Fire was due to Psycho Mantis being a thing, not by his own power, but, the gunshot wound to the head is probably good enough.
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Indifferent to regen, kinda vague, but it may or may not be wrong, not enough to go on.
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Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)

Yeah, he did remove it, that's something he absolutely canonically did. My only issue lies in it being biomanip, could be something else, hard to say given, as said, the cutscene itself was not finished, we know generally what happened though, I think likely biomanip works though.
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Vamp
Possibly higher regen works, even if it aint complete vaporization, it's clear that we never seen his upper limit.
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Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation
I think a likely/possibly resistance works better. He likely does, but it aint confirmed, so just say it as it is, a likely resistance.
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Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect.
Maybe? He's definitely above genius level, but I don't quite think he's extraordinary. He's like in some weird ass middle ground, though his planning and all that fun stuff definitely hits extraordinary, it's not even fucking funny, Ocelot is one of the most galaxy brained motherfuckers I've ever seen when it comes to planning and trickery and convoluted shit.

For the Boss and Big Boss, I'm unsure if extraordinary works, yeah she was used as a base for Peace Walker, but that was for a highly specific reason, her judgmental skills and empathy to make the right choice. Though this absolutely needs a mention on the profile regardless.

Yeah, him having enhanced senses is fine, just needs a justification tweak.
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Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off:
This all is true. I agree completely.
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Venom: His tier should be "Likely 8-B", not plain 8-B:
I suppose this fine, though it shoudl be mentioned that while Ocelot was in on the whole thing, for awhile he made himself believe Venom was Big Boss through hypnotherapy, and Miller didn't know till way later, which kinda pissed him right the fuck off. Though, there's still him fighting Sahelantropus and TMOF, don't know how exactly you'd scale that. But Likely is a good compromise so I'm fine with it.

As for his weaknesses, yeah, agree entirely with that. I mean it's bad to the point he accidentally shot Eli in the fucking chest because of he mixed up his colors. And the debunk reasoning is good too, especially when he's shown to almost always take foes seriously.

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Quiet: She should also get a "Likely 8-B" rating:
I agree with most points, though she probably still works as a 8-B due to the parasite amping, though I'm fine with that either way.
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Psycho Mantis:
Yeah Psycho Mantis can break the 4th wall in MGS4, hell, depending on the controller you have, he can even vibrate it still (though he gets pissed if you have a controller that lacks it, which is still a 4th wall break).
Also genius also works fine, he has enough feats on that tier to confirm a rating.
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Vamp: Missing weakness:
That's fine.
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Liquid: His durability justification is completely off:
Agree, this is fine.
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Armstrong: His weakness is off:
If a source can't be found then this is fine.
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The MGR Cast: An "At least Class G" Lifting strength instead of plain Class G:
I'm not so sure, Raiden's feat was around 3 billion tons, which obviously he did while weak and with one arm, but At least would imply there's a possibility for them to be higher than Class G, which is where the issue lies, the next Class up is over 300x Raiden's feat, yeah he was weak but I don't think the gap between him and the higher end MGR entities is 300x in lifting strength. I'm pretty sure they're all just really high Class G. Though I'm open to discussion on this point, clarification on the profile on how much they upscale could be added though.
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Their speed scaling is a mess: etc
That is Fine.
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Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key:
I mean, that doesn't make much sense, yeah Rex matched Ray, but MS1 Rex is literally just MGS4 Rex but not a beaten torn apart pile of shit. Anything MGS4 Rex can do should apply to MGS1 so idk about that. Yeah Rel+-SoL attack speed is fine.
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Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY.
I agree with most of this, other than that the Arsenal Gears Ray units don't scale to the Marine Ray. While they had different purposes, there exists virtually no difference from what I can tell in functionality. At the very least, Likely 8-A for the Ray units at arsenal would be better then straight up saying nah they dont even hold a candle to Ocelot's.
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Metal Gear RAY: New Keys:


I agree on the front that three keys like that could be redundant, but I still think the Arsenal Units should at the very least be comparable.
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Metal Gear RAY dodges REX' Free Electron Laser:
Idk, the laser being that fast is definitely legit, it's just that, well, Ocelot's Ray and REX were piloted by Ocelot and Liquid, manually. Everything those mecha did apply to their reactions to an extent. If REX began moving after the laser was fired, that's only because Liquid began moving him after it was fired, or Solid or Ocelot in the case of 4 and Ray. And then we have Snake and Liquid actively fighting the mecha together , manually, and then there's Gray Fox, if he does scale, even if slightly, it'd apply to Snake anyway, who can CQC his ass and beat him in a fist fight. So like, take of that as you will, if we scale that feat to the mecha, it ultimately scales to the top tiers like Solid as well.
Scaling to the MGR cast is obviously fine, if we actually use the feat. If used, it scales to more than just them so like, unless you wanna argue an upgrade like that for characters like Solid/Liquid/Solidus/Raiden/Ocelot/Big Boss/The Boss as well then eh. Though, I'm not entirely against that if there's no blatant contradictions and if this happens enough times.
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Most of Peace Walker is fine but, Acrobatics wouldnt qualify, it can jump high but for acrobatics you gotta be doing some fancy shit as well with great mobility and maneuverability. For lifting strength, Class 1 is absolutely a ludicrous lowend. it's a 25m tall giant mecha, 1 ton lifting strength is nothing to it, by virtue of size it should be at least Class 10, likely drastically higher given even normal ass commercial vehicles can tow around shit like that. Class 50+ as a low end is likely reasonable to if you cross scale with earlier models like the Shago being able to move tanks. Range would actually be thousands of kilometers at minimum, likely lowend Planetary, given Peace Walker was said to be able to launch a retaliation strike against any place on the planet. Rest is good.
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The Sorrow looks mostly good but, he'd be Non-Corporal as well, given he's well, a ghost. Anything scaling off Mantis should be listed as likely instead of flat out. The rest is fine, but in regards to knowing exactly when the bomb will explode, that could be chalked up to his precog, though it wouldn't change anything given he's still genius and has supernatural clairvoyant abilities.
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Skill Feats

>Venom Snake is merely the best MSF soldier
, nothing implies that he's as skilled as Big Boss, as he was only hypnotized into thinking he had done what Big Boss had done. We know from Naomi that genes are the most important factor to a soldier's skill and Venom was only a normal human, as such automatically less skilled than those with Big Boss' genes. This is demonstrated by Eli being capable of outskilling and overpowering fully grown soldiers despite having no training and a rookie Solid Snake being able to beat Venom himself

This is all true, he's probably not as skilled as Big Boss, but him being hypnotized to have his experiences probably helped a lot. And being beaten by a rookie Solid isn't a huge detriment, give this Rookie Solid could also fight Frank, who in turn could fight Big Boss. I mean, not as skilled as Big Boss? Sure, but there's a huge amount of credit to be given to hm.

>CQC is composed of many martial arts,

Should also make a mention of how CQC is a hard counter to almost any fighting style imaginable, if it isn't already mentioned on the profile.

The rest of the skill things are obviously true and I have nothing to add onto it.
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For the scaling chain, I disagree with Venom being that low, given Rookie Solid is fucking insane in his own right with his match with Gray Fox, at the very least, put Venom above the genome soldiers, the rest I'm fine with. There also comes into the play the offscreen feats of Venom, it's hard to say where Venom and Big Boss' feats begin and end post MGS5, a lot of the things attributed to Big Boss can now be given to Venom. Even things like training a rookie Solid, off and on, or recruiting Foxhound like Sniper Wolf, we simply don't know who actually did what, we know a few things on who did what exactly, but overall it's hard to gauge.

Genome Soldiers<=Venom Snake<Rookie Solid<Solidus<Raiden<Liquid=FOXHOUND<=MGS1,2,Solid<MGS4 Solid<<MGS4 Ocelot=End of MGS3 Ocelot<=End of MGS4 Solid <The Boss<Big Boss

> whereas in MGS3 Ocelot had just learnt CQC,

That should actually be mentioned on his profile, possibly minor mimicry or mentioned in his accelerated development, he literally learned a super advanced fighting style just by seeing Big Boss and The Boss do it a few times.

Everything else is fine.

Though because it's the end now, anyone who gains resistance to status effect via CQC from Big Boss ain't viable, they can gain it from other things like resisting his stun weapons, but not from CQC, given all it is is knocking someone on their ass, which we dont give the ability for.
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I'm fine with like 90% of this, just a few minor wording tweaking on most and the few things that I do have issue with I'm sure we can agree on like Peace Walker's range with ICBM's and the rest I'm open to discussion on.
 
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Just to start: Some of the characters have some of the abilities in OP (just for different reasons, like MGR characters having resistance to empathic manipulation), so we will have to add it all to each profile carefully and just provide the further justifications from the OP if the ability is there already

Part 1:


Yeah I agree with almost everything, though Volgin's resistance wouldn't be to "High Temperatures", but rather "Electricity Manipulation" itself. Also Raiden wouldn't really have Pseudo-Invulnerability, it's a durability thing, he can easily shrug off bullets because he's so tough.


Part 2:


Volgin/Man on Fire
: I'm not very sure. Seems like teleportation but also looks like he can regen. I also suggest Inorganic Physiology, for obvious reasons, he's literally fire.

Vamp: High-Mid for Vamp seems good, but I'm neutral on this.

Rest is good for me.


Part 3:


Ocelot
: I wholeheartedly support Ocelot having Extraordinary Genius intellect

Big Boss: Agree

Venom: Agree, Venom is definitely weaker than BB and rest after further research, but he still should be in this tiering

Quiet: Like above

Psycho Mantis: Agree

Vamp
: Agree

LIQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID: Agree

Armstrong: Absolutely agree, where does that weakness come from anyway lmao

The MGR Cast: I agree, they are definitely far higher than performed feat, but wouldn't grant them Class T. Still they are definitely much stronger than that.

MG Rex: Agree, though I'm not a calc guy so can't judge the laser feat.

Solid Snake and Raiden: Neutral on this, but mostly agree with not scaling


Part 4:


Not for me to judge as stated above


Part 5:


Yeah the profiles are good for my eye, just gotta make them. Peace Walker doesn't have Class 1 lifting strength though. 500 tons is Class 50/Class 100 IIRC.


Part 6:


We discussed this already but I'll think about this and give my thoughts later.
 
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>500 tons is Class 50/Class 100 IIRC.

It's actually exactly Class K+.

>though Volgin's resistance wouldn't be to "High Temperatures", but rather "Electricity Manipulation" itself. Volgin/Man on Fire: I also suggest Inorganic Physiology, for obvious reasons, he's literally fire.

Put me down on those too actually, the former seems to be a better alternative and the latter is kinda true, he's actually part corpse/part literal fire so a limited inorganic physiology would work.
 
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But is it really. I'm not against status effect inducement for them, but in 90% of the cases with CQC, I don't think Big Boss smashing a dude's head off a wall or pimp slapping a dude so hard he gets put into a coma qualifies, that's just knocking a dude out cold.
If Solid, Venom, Big Boss, etc can induce stunning via pressure points then that's cool, that can be added as reasoning. They would get this ability anyway via things like stun knives and the stun arm and all the fun gadgets that they have, I'm just against Big Boss pimping a dude being used as a justification.
 
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Yeah that's right. I think Pressure Points for any skilled CQC user is fine. In MGS3 it's stated several times that CQC utilizes mainly judo and jiu-jitsu, which is mainly based on pressure points, aside grappling and throwing.
 
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I mean as long as we ain't giving Staus effect for knocking a dude on his ass with a strong fist to the face I'm fine with it.
 
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Extrasensory perception would actually work for stuff like Venom's sonar, since it's straight up not enhanced senses, it's something completely external, same goes for stuff like the Sonic Eye and the Soliton, those are not enhanced senses, it's literally stuff that he couldn't have gotten with his senses.

Big Boss getting EP because he could see The Sorrow is iffy, The Sorrow could have very well just chosen to appear to him.

Fine with the thermal stuff, if it falls under enhanced senses it should be categorized as resistance to enhanced senses

Why should it be tweaked to "minor" resistance tho? He broke out of a paralysis, it's plain resistance. And I mean, Invulnerability is listed as "the power to be immune to conventional harm", it's not a Dura thing because humans in MG should also be able to tank bullets no problem but can't, so bullets bouncing off Raiden would fall under Invulnerability if we take that into account (also, that's why I put it as "pseudo" invulnerability)

The wiki defines deconstruction as "the ability to break something down into smaller parts", not specifying that this has to be done via matter manipulation, The Boss almost instantly disassembling guns would fall at least under "minor" deconstruction.

Same thing for Solid, Soliton is straight up extrasensory perception.

The 4th-wall-break thing is the GAMEPLAY reason as to why Psycho Mantis couldn't read Solid, but the stuff about him having "no future" is the CANON reason why he could. believe it or not, Snake didn't canonically beat Psycho mantis by telling the extradimensional guy controlling him to unplug the little tech-thingy said being was using to control him.

The lighting bolt only really sent him into coma, and he wasn't even burnt superficially. Let's not forget that most if not all of the damage Volgin suffered from that lightning was due to all of his bullets going off inside him.

yeah, of course The Man on Fire's regen was due to Psycho Mantis, but let's be real, ALL of The Man on Fire is ALWAYS due to Psycho Mantis, so it's useless to even point out.

It couldn't be anything other than biomanip tho, what he did was perfectly separate the parasite from the vocal cords, and said parasite perfectly attaches to the vocal cords to the point where it's impossible to remove them normally.

Ocelot specifies that he would always know the truth deep down via double thinking. As I said, Venom gets one-tapped by TMOF consistently, he NEVER matches him in power, hell, the whole gimmick of ALL of TMOF's fights is to absolutely avoid him and try to abuse his weakness

Actually it's entirely possible that the gap is that big. MGS4 Raiden wasn't even remotely close to even being at his average strangth, and we know that that body was completely unusable and obsolete even compared to the Patriots one, which is nowhere near as good as the Custom one.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but Otacon outright states that he made REX faster than it was in MGS1, as such, it doesn't scale to MGS1 REX

There were differences functionally, and huge at that. The Marines' one was designed to kill Metal Gears, the Arsenal ones were designed to beat normal human tech. The difference was big enough that it was pointed out.

No, they weren't piloted manually, or at least, not wholly. In REX' case Otacon outright talks about "running an emulator" of its CPU in order for IT to ridistribute its output, and other tech mumbo jumbo, which implies that the Metal Gear has some degree of control over its own functions, especially when Ocelot's RAY was modified and has the legs of the un-manned versions of RAY.

Peace Walker weights 454 tonnes (500 short tons), Class 1 was probably a typo on my end.

Yeah, I mean, he's only at the bottom compared to the others, doesn't mean he isn't skilled, he's still eons better than the best real life fighter/soldier in every aspect.

I kinda agree with Venom being above the Genome Soldiers tbh, the problem is that the Genome Soldiers have the Soldier Gene, which, as shown multiple times throughout the series, makes the "user" far superior to any camparatively-trained human. I guess it's up to interpretation here.
 
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Volgin's is resistance to High Temperatures because what he tanked at the end of MGS3 was a normal lightning, which is about 50k Fahrenheit and would have burned him alive if he didn't have a resistance to high temperatures. And he should ALSO get resistance to electricity manip.
As I've already said, it's not a matter of dura in MGS. the Snakes can also shrug off bullets dura-wise, but they still get hurt by them.

eehhhh dunno about inorganic physiology for TMOF, we see that he still has Volgin's body under the fire
 
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Aight, so Pressure Points are fine I guess

I'll wait for more input, I'm open for any discussions, though @Twellas What do you think about MGR characters scaling to Peace Walker durability (7-B)? We talked about it earlier but I'm curious if it's up to debate right there
I actually realized that saying that Metal Gears after PW scaled to its inner armor required some big assumptions, as it's NEVER even implied that Metal Gears are capable of tanking nukes. Also, both Raiden and Sam only even hit RAY with HF blades, and as such there's no way of knowing if they would even scale to that feat. The only ones who would scale are EOG Raiden and Armstrong via demolishing EXCELSUS, but again, it would be a big assumption to say that EXCELSUS' armor is on the level of PW's
 
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and Status Effect CQC comes from the fact that Snake has a choice to slam the enemy to the ground WITHOUT stunning him
 
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As a matter of fact, Soliton Radar falls squarely into the "Life Detection" subseries of Extrasensory Perception
 
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Actually, you know what? Let's quantify the gap in power between MGS4 Raiden and MGR Raiden.

The description of the MGS4 body in MGR is "functionally obsolete" and "its battlefield potential is extremely limited". This is all compared to the Standard Cyborg Body, which is in turn "good forbodyguard work and missions that don't involve serious combat", so this body isn't simply old, it isn't even combat oriented, and still the MGS4 body is "functionally obsolete" compared to it. The Custom Body on the other hand, we know for a fact is the absolute best technologically speaking, and entirely geared towards combat, to the point where even the self-repair units were removed in an attempt to optimize it.

so, this is how the scaling goes

3 billion tons= a completely busted version of MGS4 Raiden who had just been stabbed multiple times by Vamp, was actively being poisoned by his own blood and was missing an arm<<<(functionally obsolete, extremely limited combat potential)<<<Standard Cyborg Body<<(old, not even combat oriented)<< Custom Body (peak body possible technologically speaking, entirely optimazed for combat)
 

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Bit hard to answer to everything so I'll limit myself for now.

I agree that CQC shouldn't be status effects inducement- it's definitely a martial art designed to knock people out, and that should be noted, but I don't think the way it does is- slamming someone's face against a wall hard enough will indeed knock them out. Slamming someone without knocking them out is probably just hitting them a bit less hard.

I totally agree with EG Ocelot, but I dunno if I do about the Boss, for Chariot's reasons, and because the person doing the choosing definitely had one hell of a bias towards The Boss. Being used as a base for an EG AI also doesn't necessarily imply EG.

I also absolutely disagree with deconstruction. If we counted that as deconstruction, then we'd have to do the same for anyone with a pulverization feat, since they do be breaking something into smaller pieces doe.

I do agree with the skill levels in general, though I'm not too sure on some things (such as The End being worse at sniping than Naked Snake- the only way to get his camo is to sneak up behind it, wouldn't that hint at stealth being the way Snake did it?) and some of the scaling (poor twellas knows this far too well), but regardless, the whole thing looks more or less fine to me. Wouldn't having BB's memories give Venom all of the knowledge of his training with The Boss, though? It would still be lower due to lack of muscle memory, but still.

I haven't finished MGSV (Nor will I ever, odds are, so feel free to spoil me), but wasn't Ocelot also hella scared of the Man on Fire?

I absolutely agree with the weakness changes, it's kind of embarassing everyone missed Venom's in particular. Also, should we add "Believes Santa Claus is real" as a weakness? lol

Also, should Rex' weak spot's durability be mentioned in the right section?

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with Raiden's LS being a lot higher than the MGS4 feat.
 
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In regards to the radiation resistance, it should be mentioned it's not a complete one, it renders them infertile, though other than that it did nothing at all, Big Boss even points out how most who were there with him are dying or already killed.

>Extrasensory perception would actually work for stuff like Venom's sonar, since it's straight up not enhanced senses, it's something completely external, same goes for stuff like the Sonic Eye and the Soliton, those are not enhanced senses, it's literally stuff that he couldn't have gotten with his senses.

That's still not Extrasensory Perception, it's still just a different category of enhanced senses, which is super broad and can cover quite literally hundreds of types of perceptions and the like. If you're talking about the Bionic Arm in regards to Venom, that's actually just sonar/sound manipulation and enhanced senses combined. I even have MGSV open right now, I can check in a second. "Enables the use of echolocation to locate enemies, prisoners, and animals. Emits sound waves, so there is a risk of enemies noticing when used". Venom's sonar would fall under sound manip and enhanced senses. Sonic Eye is basically the same, it pinpoints sound and visualizes it as symbols and numbers. Soliton is way more complex but we know exactly how it performs the things it does, not through Ep but other means.

>Big Boss getting EP because he could see The Sorrow is iffy, The Sorrow could have very well just chosen to appear to him.

Nobody else in that room could see him, unless the sorrow can selectively choose exactly who can and cant see him at the same time, it should warrant EP, plus Solid could see Mantis' ghost as well. If you disagree with than Extrasensory Perception wouldn't really happen as none of the radars actually qualify, though Big Boss can see ghosts in Peace Walker as well, as long as he's close enough to them, so either way, there's 3 ghost seeing feats, I think EP is fine for that, but none of the sonars qualify for EP, just a mix of different types of enhanced senses and other sub abilities in conjunction to perform a certain display.

>Fine with the thermal stuff, if it falls under enhanced senses it should be categorized as resistance to enhanced senses

Nice, ok.

>Why should it be tweaked to "minor" resistance tho? He broke out of a paralysis, it's plain resistance. And I mean, Invulnerability is listed as "the power to be immune to conventional harm", it's not a Dura thing because humans in MG should also be able to tank bullets no problem but can't, so bullets bouncing off Raiden would fall under Invulnerability if we take that into account (also, that's why I put it as "pseudo" invulnerability)

Because he had to break out of it, he was effected, just not for long, it's a resistance, but not a full one, a minor one, he could break out, but not before being effected, hence why it should be minor, or limited, you pick, either way. I could compromise and go with a full on resistance, as long as it's specified he is effected by it, at least for a brief moment before he can break out but it's a fact that he was effected by it for at least a brief time. No, Raiden is bulletproof literally just because he's super durable, he's not immune to conventional harm, he's immune to things that simply lack the power to harm him, something with the required AP would harm him, thus, it is him being durable, not invulnerability. Humans in MGS not being able to tank bullets means either the bullets have good AP or the humans lack the durability, or it's a video game and it's just game mechanics or PIS, matter of the fact is Raiden isn't harmed simply because he's bulletproof through durability, nothing more, nothing less.

>The wiki defines deconstruction as "the ability to break something down into smaller parts", not specifying that this has to be done via matter manipulation, The Boss almost instantly disassembling guns would fall at least under "minor" deconstruction.

It wouldn't, and one sentence later the Deconstruction page says "It differs from traditional Matter Manipulation or other abilities like them by only allowing the user to break things down, not manipulate them.". Deconstruction is a subset of matter manipulation, Deconstruction is what you see Thanos do in the movie (even the main example used), Cream from JoJo when it eats something or Beerus from DBZ early on when the material around him start to get reduced to basic components like dust, being able to take a gun apart quickly isn't deconstruction, it's literally just her disassembling it, real life soldiers are trained to learn that as well. You're basically arguing that if someone quickly took apart a puzzle, they'd have deconstruction, when in reality, they wouldn't, because taking something apart with your bare hands when that something is made up of components meant to come part and be put together, is literally just basic assembly, anybody can do it, the only difference is she's skilled enough to do it in like a second. I'm sorry but this isn't an example of deconstruction or even a minor one, it's just basic human hand coordination and a mechanical ingenuity.

>Same thing for Solid, Soliton is straight up extrasensory perception.

Soliton Rader isn't though, it's just another example of enhanced senses, of course an extremely high end version that creates a map of the area and a target's location via electromagnetic waves and biological reactions. This isn't EP, it's just super highend Enhanced Senses, with a bit of vibration/sound/electric/magnetic manip thrown in. It can sense ghosts though, but that's explained with the ghosts having their own EM field. So it's in a weird spot, you'd have to figure out if the sensing ghosts thing is a weakness on the ghosts' parts or a boon to the radar, though given it's explained exactly how it can do it, I'd say that's just due to MGS ghosts have a EM field that the radar can pick up.

>The 4th-wall-break thing is the GAMEPLAY reason as to why Psycho Mantis couldn't read Solid, but the stuff about him having "no future" is the CANON reason why he could. believe it or not, Snake didn't canonically beat Psycho mantis by telling the extradimensional guy controlling him to unplug the little tech-thingy said being was using to control him.

What? I didn't disagree with anything proposed in that section, and when I was talking about Meta reasoning, I was referring to him having no future and Mantis not being able to see the future with him and Meryl being a tongue and check reference to alternate endings, Of course, it being a meta jab at alternate endings doesn't invalidate that, in universe, it actually happened and Mantis couldn't read the future, so it still applies. I never said it couldn't be added, in fact I said it was fine. Resistance to psychic precog and futuresight is 100% fine.

>The lighting bolt only really sent him into coma, and he wasn't even burnt superficially. Let's not forget that most if not all of the damage Volgin suffered from that lightning was due to all of his bullets going off inside him.

I suppose that's true, but it still put him on his ass, though that's just semantics, I agreed with the proposal in the end. Though Spooky brought up a better alternative so I'd rather we go with that.

>yeah, of course The Man on Fire's regen was due to Psycho Mantis, but let's be real, ALL of The Man on Fire is ALWAYS due to Psycho Mantis, so it's useless to even point out.

I mean, you aren't wrong so fair on that point.

>It couldn't be anything other than biomanip tho, what he did was perfectly separate the parasite from the vocal cords, and said parasite perfectly attaches to the vocal cords to the point where it's impossible to remove them normally.

I was thinking maybe teleportation? Or telekinsis+phasing. Given when he removes the things there's no incisions, they just kinda, come out. And we know Mantis can phase and teleport others, given he does it with the man on fire. Which is why I'm iffy on it, it could be biomanip, but it could be other things. It's absolutely something though, so I'm fine with it being said he likely has biomanip as it very well could be that.

>Ocelot specifies that he would always know the truth deep down via double thinking. As I said, Venom gets one-tapped by TMOF consistently, he NEVER matches him in power, hell, the whole gimmick of ALL of TMOF's fights is to absolutely avoid him and try to abuse his weakness

That's true, but in regards to the man on fire, we don't actually know how he stacks up to big boss in the first place. It isn't really fair to say that Venom being weaker then the man on fire means he's guaranteed vastly weaker than Big Boss, as Big Boss could just as well be weaker too. We simply do not know enough about that scaling to make a hard judgement on it. And yeah, Ocelot point is true, but I'm speaking outwardly here, subconsciously he may have known but the context here is what he thought on the surface, at least for the time before it began to wear off. Though, I'm fine with Venom being lower than Big Boss, because he is, I just dont think it's a huge difference to the point it's not even comparable. At least, I'm assuming that's what we're talking about here, hard to keep track.

>Actually it's entirely possible that the gap is that big. MGS4 Raiden wasn't even remotely close to even being at his average strangth, and we know that that body was completely unusable and obsolete even compared to the Patriots one, which is nowhere near as good as the Custom one.

We need far more evidence than possibly it being that big. All we have to go on is that there's a huge gap between MGS4 and MGR Raiden, but a gap of like 300x? That needs sufficient evidence to suggest that, at least doesn't work here because we basically have to assume the gap is 300x when that's just conjecture. If others think it's reasonable that's fine, I'm not entirely against it, but generally speaking we don't give things like at least or other prefixes based on scaling alone unless they were already close to the upper limit of the tier, which Raiden wasn't.

>Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but Otacon outright states that he made REX faster than it was in MGS1, as such, it doesn't scale to MGS1 REX

Eh, that sounds like some sus as fuck reasoning from Otacon, but fine.

>There were differences functionally, and huge at that. The Marines' one was designed to kill Metal Gears, the Arsenal ones were designed to beat normal human tech. The difference was big enough that it was pointed out.

That isn't a difference in functionality, that's a different in intent. The Marine was intended to kill REX copies, the Arsenal ones were intended to protect Arsenal Gear. That's true, but it's never actually said they differ in statistics at all, that's an extrapolation based on what they were going to be used for, not something that was actually said. I can see why you may think that's an educated guess and I can get behind it, but the opposite is also true, it's more of an assumption than a hard fact, which is why Likely/Possibly should tell come into play here.

>No, they weren't piloted manually, or at least, not wholly. In REX' case Otacon outright talks about "running an emulator" of its CPU in order for IT to ridistribute its output, and other tech mumbo jumbo, which implies that the Metal Gear has some degree of control over its own functions, especially when Ocelot's RAY was modified and has the legs of the un-manned versions of RAY.

But they literally were, in MGS1 Liquid pilots it entirely, you outright see him do it and even make remarks in reference to his attacks he performs, we even see him pilot it in the cockpit. In MGS4 Snake is piloting it, and actively reacting to Ray and his attacks, we see this on screen and Ocelot the same with him reacting and fighting Rex while in manual control. It isn't entirely computer automated, some parts may be, that's true, but it's not to the extent you're suggesting to where they wouldn't scale at all. If MGS4 Ray is rel+, that's because Ocelot reacted, not because the Ray unit reacted automatically by itself with no input, and if Ray only reacted after the laser was fired then Ocelot must have reacted after as well, if they could do that then Solid having to learn how to pilot it on the fly and Ocelot piloting it in that entire exchange with no mention of any type of helpful AI for that unit. If REX or RAY end up being rel+, that ends up scaling to characters like Ocelot and Solid, it's completely unrealistic to assume that they had no part in reacting or fighting in that fight, because they explicitly were, the only way it wouldnt scale is if it was entirely automated, and besides when Otacon says that he isn't actually talking about REX's movements or anything like that, that's all Snake. I'm not saying they are rel+, but what I am saying is if you upgrade the mecha, then characters like Ocelot must scale as well, because it's just as much their feat as it was the Metal Gear. It's up to you if you want to implement this feat though, if you want to go along with it though you'd need evidence that it isn't an outlier, that should be simple enough though, if it happens reasonably often enough and there isn't any contradictions outside of PIS, it could work but that's not really my place to say.

>Peace Walker weights 454 tonnes (500 short tons), Class 1 was probably a typo on my end.

I think Likely Class K would work, it can support most of it's body weight while spread out, and it's also a giant mecha which kinda speaks for itself.

>Yeah, I mean, he's only at the bottom compared to the others, doesn't mean he isn't skilled, he's still eons better than the best real life fighter/soldier in every aspect.

That's fair, I don't think he's above most of the big names, in fact I think he's outright not above them. But he still super skilled given his showings against the skulls (even being skilled enough to outright rip their blades from them and shove it through their head on a dime).

>I kinda agree with Venom being above the Genome Soldiers tbh, the problem is that the Genome Soldiers have the Soldier Gene, which, as shown multiple times throughout the series, makes the "user" far superior to any camparatively-trained human. I guess it's up to interpretation here.

Soldier Genes help, but Genes aren't everything, that was kinda the theme of MGS1 actually. Take Solid for example, he's actually the weakest clone, yet, somehow, he's the best, even beating his superior in Liquid in direct hand to hand. Or Raiden defeating Solidus, despite Raiden having no genes himself, and that's not even getting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes (although, The Sorrow and The Boss genes are probably just as good). Well, you get my point, Venom's showings against The Skulls, enhanced superhumans, being Big Boss' right hand man and all this other stuff imply and in some cases directly show insane showings. Though, he's still below young Solid, but young Solid is above even Gray Fox. Though I'm going on a bit. either way, through feats alone I'd say Venom > Genomes but Solid > Venom.

>and Status Effect CQC comes from the fact that Snake has a choice to slam the enemy to the ground WITHOUT stunning him

Ok so he decides not to slam them hard enough to knock them out. CQC isn't status effect inducement, it is quite literally just hitting someone hard enough to stun them, that isn't an ability. Pressure points, stun knives, eletro arm, etc, there's plenty of reasons why they'd have stun listed so the ability being listed is fine, but slamming a dude or bitch slapping someone hard enough to knock them unconscious simply isn't one and we're not going to treat it as such.

>As a matter of fact, Soliton Radar falls squarely into the "Life Detection" subseries of Extrasensory Perception

It doesn't though, when the EP page says that, it's talking about life detection in the way someone like Goku can sense living things or Magician's Red can detect life forms and spiritual energy with flames. The soliton radar on the other hand explicitly detects life, not through means that would qualify, but via electromagnetic waves and pinpointing and registering biological reactions in a target's body through EM fields. It's life detection, but in a way that doesn't qualify. We have abilities that the soliton radar falls under, we can list those instead as that's what it is.

>3 billion tons= a completely busted version of MGS4 Raiden who had just been stabbed multiple times by Vamp, was actively being poisoned by his own blood and was missing an arm<<<(functionally obsolete, extremely limited combat potential)<<<Standard Cyborg Body<<(old, not even combat oriented)<< Custom Body (peak body possible technologically speaking, entirely optimazed for combat)

Yes, but that just confirms it's a huge gap, not 300x, we actually need proof for such a claim. We simply don't do this, in fact Zelda just got downgraded in lifting strength for similar reasons as upscaling super large amounts doesn't work even with large scaling chains unless we have statements or feats closer to the upper limit that would warrant that. They are just really high Class G, nothing more, nothing less. Class G to Class T is a 1000x gap, this isn't a small tier.
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To summarize.
I still think Venom is above the genomes but below the rest of the notable cast.
The radars don't qualify for Extrasensory Perception, Soliton comes close, but we know how it functions and the reason it does what it does doesn't fall to that category.
Extrasensory I feel is still doable though as Big Boss can see The Sorrow when nobody else could, he can see a bunch of random ghosts in Peace Walker side ops like Deadman's Treasure, and he could also see The Boss' soul leave her body and meet The Sorrow after he killed her in MGS3 (if you go into first person after shooting her and look to the side, you can see her soul standing in the flowers). And Solid could see Mantis' ghost and The Sorrow as well if you go into first person and look at the balcony (the sorrow comes and kicks mantis' ghost back to the afterlife, probably the single coolest easter egg in that game). That's 4 ghost seeing feats, with The Boss' soul and the ghosts in Peace Walker being kinda blatant.
For the Rel+ Mecha's, if we say they're Rel+, it's almost impossible to say characters like Ocelot aren't as well, whether or not we use that feat, not my concern, I'm just saying by proxy they'd scale.
The gap between Raiden and MGR Raiden, while large, isn't enough to change the tier or add a prefix.
Status Effect inducement is fine, just not for slapping dudes out cold, other reasoning exists and plenty of it, that can be used instead.
Raiden resisting para inducement is fine, but it's undeniable that it's not a full on resistance as he was explicitly frozen and must break free, if it was a full one, he wouldnt have been effected, which leaves two options, say it's a minor or limited one, or make clear that he does get frozen for a bit before he can break free.
Deconstruction for taking a part a gun by hand isn't deconstruction, not even a minor one, it's simply not the ability being proposed.
The rest either I agree on or it doesn't ultimately matter.
 
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Well, Chariot kinda summed up every point i could bring better than i could lol.

Though i'll say, the fake death pill is just poison manipulation. It's a potassium cianyde pill which is countered by a antidote. Not exactly death manipulation.
 
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>I haven't finished MGSV (Nor will I ever, odds are, so feel free to spoil me), but wasn't Ocelot also hella scared of the Man on Fire?

He was (well depends on what you mean by hella, but he wasn't exactly nonchalant), and, I've actually been on a huge MGS binge, since I think August 22nd to now, I've played, Solid 1, 2, 3, 4, MSX 1, 2, Twin Snakes, Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and I'm playing Phantom Pain right now, in fact I'm almost done it, 92%, should have the Platinum Trophy by tomorrow or the next day, and I can confirm, Ocelot was like oh shit oh fuck when the man on fire appeared. I should also mention that the man on fire was a threat to Big Boss, Ishmael, to what extent it's hard to say, but Ishmael was put into some dangerous situations as well and made it a priority to get the fuck away from him at all costs.

>"Believes Santa Claus is real" as a weakness? lol

I mean, Big Boss is afraid of Dracula too, Joking aside, I think Big Boss has seen enough weird shit to be unfazed by most things at this point.

>Oh, and I agree with Raiden's LS being a lot higher than the MGS4 feat.

I absolutely agree that MGR humiliates MGS4 Raiden. And the description on his lifting strength should be changed to make it clear that the twi aren't even comparable, I just think that the gap isn't big enough without direct proof to warrant any type of change in Class or prefix, we simply do not to that as wiki anymore unless the feat in question was closer to the higher end of the tier.
 

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There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?

I was thinking of playing the MG games after V, but I'm really not enjoying it so I might just skip it. Is it your first time playing them?

Yeah I don't think it's worth a change in class, since it gets kinda nebulous that way.
 
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>There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?
Hmm, maybe? If we say The Man on Fire is 8-B, then if we say Venom got hit by him, he'd of course scale.

>but I'm really not enjoying it
Unfortunate, I really like V, it starts off kinda slow though but once you get into it it's actually super fucking good, the amount of tech, gadgets and ways you can go about doing shit is insane, you can pick and play style you want and it'd work, though given I'm trying to 100% it, my play style was forced into a "being fucking good at the game" style to get all those S Ranks. I'd say keep with it a bit longer, the first 10 chapters are more like filler and ease of play. But once you get DD, Quiet and find your play style and a nice selection of weaponry to have fun with, it gets quite fun. I've had lots of good moments with it, though sadly it's an unfinished product because fuck Konami, that doesn't take away from what is there.
> Is it your first time playing them?
Played Solid 1 at like launch, and I played Rising at launch, other then that, yeah my first time, though I knew a lot of the things ahead of time, I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of things.
 
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Why every single character is scaled to the 8-B feat by Volgin? When literally Solid Snake and company are still very much human with just advanced combat training and still being hurt weaponry.

Is this tier even remotely consistent with their usual power output through out all the games? Or just is just one throw away feat that is an outlier?

Same goes to Big Boss bench pressing the cocoon.
 
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Why every single character is scaled to the 8-B feat by Volgin? When literally Solid Snake and company are still very much human with just advanced combat training and still being hurt weaponry.

Is this tier even remotely consistent with their usual power output through out all the games? Or just is just one throw away feat that is an outlier?

Same goes to Big Boss bench pressing the cocoon.
there's multiple Tier 8 feats, hell I randomly calced a throwaway bit feat done by a rookie solid not even a week ago and it came out to be like Tier 8-C. then we have shit like Solid physically beating Gray Fox in CQC, a superhuman cyborg, or Snake at his worst being able to casually withstand the force of his railgun without even flinching (has recoil comparable to a tank) or old Ocelot denting Outer Haven's hull (a modified arsenal gear that wasn't even scratched by tomahawks). Also they're human, yes, but they're superhuman. Being human doesn't invalidate feats above 10-C, Krillin and mario are human, but they're superpowered, same here. The degree can vary though depending on the game but overall, they're all blatantly superhuman more or less. Yes, they can be hurt by weapons, but these weapons have some nice feats that implies a discrepancy with reality, at least to an extent. (Plus Big Boss himself has stun weapons that are like 1/8th Volgin's output, like his 1.2mil volt stun).

Big Boss benches 3 mechas in that game, not just Cocoon, even then, the cast is blatantly superhuman in lifting strength, like The Boss in MGS3 holding a several hundred KG suitcase like it weighs as much as a wet tissue, with one hand, or as mentioned above, Old Solid being able to withstand a weapon that packs the power of a tank and not even move a inch from recoil.

Of course it isn't 100% consistent, but that's to be expected, it's a video game, but luckily, it's actually more consistent then most surprisingly enough.
 
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Them being humans doesn't change anything. There are verses full of humans that are ranging from Tier 7 to even Tier 2.

Also it's quite consistent, Metal Gear Solid has quite many, ehh, fantasy elements? I don't know how to name it. Solid Snake, Raiden and Big Boss are all superhuman supersoldiers, there's nothing outlierish in the series.
 

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Reading through this and will give an in-depth response later, but I'm telling you right now that I completely disagree with the current lifting strength ratings for characters like Snake.
 
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>for characters like Snake.

There are 5 Snakes

 
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Reading through this and will give an in-depth response later, but I'm telling you right now that I completely disagree with the current lifting strength ratings for characters like Snake.
The reason better not be an argument out of disbelief, because there's very little opposing reason why he wouldn't be what he says. Multiple Mecha lifting feats (and not just by Big Boss in Peace Walker), multiple feats of being uneffected by hundreds of tons of force, etc. There's to many feats of an extreme caliber to say his lifting strength isn't ridiculous. Supplemented by extremely casual lower end superhumans that the characters don't even flinch at or treat as even being a feat (casually flipping around nuclear warheads with one hand with a smile as if it weighs literal nothing for example) There's only two anti-feats I can think of and both are kinda blatant PIS, and one isnt even a anti-feat because he ends up doing it anyway and the other he didn't even try. If you wanna argue this you best come with some damn good solid and consistent alternatives that exceed these feats in number and consistency.

>There are 5 Snakes

There's actually 7 if you wanna get real in depth. Maybe 8. But we don't talk about those.

>So you understand that I mean all of them, awesome!

Gonna be real with you chief, that snarky attitude is already putting me off.
 
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>There's actually 7 if you wanna get real in depth. Maybe 8. But we don't talk about those.

Well, 5 REAL Snakes. Jack could barely be classified because it was his nickname for a short time but I get you. What are the other 2 though?
 
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Solid, Liquid, Solidus, Big Boss, Venom. Raiden that one time, the two Snakes from AC!D but we don't talk about those. And idk, you could argue maybe Liquid Ocelot but that's a stretch.
That's a lot of Snakes.
 

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The reason better not be an argument out of disbelief, because there's very little opposing reason why he wouldn't be what he says. Multiple Mecha lifting feats, multiple feats of being uneffected by hundreds of tons of force, etc. There's to many feats of an extreme caliber to say his lifting strength isn't ridiculous. Supplemented by extremely casual lower end superhumans that the characters don't even flinch at or treat as even being a feat. There's only two anti-feats I can think of and both are kinda blatant PIS, and one isnt even a anti-feat because he ends up doing it anyway and the other he didn't even try. If you wanna argue this you best come with some damn good solid and consistent alternatives that exceed these feats in number and consistency.


Gonna be real with you chief, that snarky attitude is already putting me off.
I mean, there is Snake explicitly going to be crushed underneath a Metal Gear and needing Gray Fox to stop it, which makes it very clear that these kind of feats shouldn't be considered as legitimate if it destroys a crucial plot point.

I won't turn this into an argument of behavior, but I wasn't being snarky in any sort. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, but one could also very easily interpret Shadow's comment as rude.
 

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CRT: Kept ya waiting huh?

Doe Chariot makes the most sense on the points for this CRT. But bravo on the effort it took to make it
 
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Nice thread You pretty good

You almost made me agree 100% (i pretty much will follow what is decided), i only disagree on Venom Snake being that low on skill.
Ocelot makes clear Venom Snake gained all Big Boss's experiences and knowledge (time stamp: 1:13) + being their best soldier (which can be said to be alot for Big Boss standards and likely higher compared to Special Forces).
While Liquid himself states the Genome Soldiers had the best genetics for killing and strategic thinking (its good to remember they didnt use Big Boss genetic code, but used what they did know about human genome based on big boss genes, time stamp: 5:08) and used for special forces. They still somewhat failed and Venom Snake would scale higher by reasons above.

While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

Venom lost to Rookie Solid likely because of being older and not being on his prime anymore. Venom still created a huge legacy of Big Boss meaning he still keep having new experiences, Rookie Snake would very well be better than venom on his prime, only if Solid already had experience.

Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ? (I wont really use act 3 cutscene where Ocelot beats Snake, since both on the end of the game fights equally, even on CQC, and its weird how Ocelot getting older didnt really affect much).
 
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>While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

This is true, it was actually Snake who had the bad genes, but ended up being the Snake to surpass Big Boss himself. Gene's lay the foundation, but they don;t decide everything, Liquid Vs. solid proves that, in fact that's the whole point of MGS1.

>Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ?

Snake in MGS4 was the first time he ever actually used CQC after Big Boss betrayed his unit, in MG2 and MGS1/2, Solid refused to use CQC, effectively handicapping his best skill. In 4, he proceeds to use it because Big Boss' files came to light and everyone began using CQC, but it was all a cheap imitation, only Solid and Ocelot at the time had real CQC, the rest of the soldiers were using a bad copy of it, which is why Solid uses it in the first place in 4, there's no reason not to anymore and seeing all those cheap imitations makes him want to use the real thing that he learnt from Big Boss directly. Also Ocelot beat Solid in that cutscene because he was more adept at CQC, Solid refusing to use it for like 20 years while Liquid/Ocelot had zero issue abusing it would do that to ya. Though by the end I guess Solid got use to using it again or straight up improved enough with it to where he could fight Ocelot on equal ground and barely edge out a win.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I'll need to check this later once I read through my 50+ notifications. Half of the abilities seem fine, but skeptical on some of the others or sounds like its being mixed up with other abilities.
 
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>While its true genes have a strong influence on a soldier's skill, i wouldnt take way to literally what Naomi said, if i not mistaken Liquid had the better genes, while Snake the recessive ones (Liquid believed he had the recessive ones in game), by Naomi's logic Liquid would have won Solid.

This is true, it was actually Snake who had the bad genes, but ended up being the Snake to surpass Big Boss himself. Gene's lay the foundation, but they don;t decide everything, Liquid Vs. solid proves that, in fact that's the whole point of MGS1.

>Snake on MGS4 used a better version of CQC right ?

Snake in MGS4 was the first time he ever actually used CQC after Big Boss betrayed his unit, in MG2 and MGS1/2, Solid refused to use CQC, effectively handicapping his best skill. In 4, he proceeds to use it because Big Boss' files came to light and everyone began using CQC, but it was all a cheap imitation, only Solid and Ocelot at the time had real CQC, the rest of the soldiers were using a bad copy of it, which is why Solid uses it in the first place in 4, there's no reason not to anymore and seeing all those cheap imitations makes him want to use the real thing that he learnt from Big Boss directly. Also Ocelot beat Solid in that cutscene because he was more adept at CQC, Solid refusing to use it for like 20 years while Liquid/Ocelot had zero issue abusing it would do that to ya. Though by the end I guess Solid got use to using it again or straight up improved enough with it to where he could fight Ocelot on equal ground and barely edge out a win.
Oh, if they lay the foundations i fine with (and i did forgot about this exactly plot point on genes in MGS1, thanks for explaning).

I have no ideia why i believed Snake used a better CQC, but Snake's CQC being rusty but still better than ''pale imitations'' (yes he say that on this codec) and later getting ass kicked by liquid makes a alot of sense.

Nice jojo avatar you got here
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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  • Death Manipulation sounds more like paralysis inducement or sleep inducement.
  • Perception Manipulation via Reflex mode how is that explained? Perception manipulation is like advanced illusion creation that messes with all senses
  • Sound manipulation looks more like Stealth Mastery
  • That does not sound like instinctive reactions or more like fast reaction speed. Instinctive reaction is like being able to fight in your sleep.
  • And it sounds more like he has resistance to Mind reading or a Telepathic barrier. I'm not sure if the Acausality statements are takin in context.
There may be a lot more stuff to go other, but these are at the top of my mind.
 
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>Death Manipulation sounds more like paralysis inducement or sleep inducement.

Youre right, it's just snake taking a pill that induces a temporary death, we have things like that irl, in fact the thing Naked has is literally a real thing.

>Perception Manipulation via Reflex mode how is that explained? Perception manipulation is like advanced illusion creation that messes with all senses

Right on this too, Reflex Mode is just a gameplay mechanic to represent Big boss' insane lightning fast reflexes, it doesnt effect his or anyone else's perception, it's just things slowing down in comparison to him allowing him to react at insane speeds. Reflex Mode is canon though and actually a thing, its even scripted to happen at points even when turned off (against Sahelanthropus for example, when it leaps at you, reflex mode always activates, or against Quiet in a cutscene), but lore it's just him being super fast.

>Sound manipulation looks more like Stealth Mastery

If talking about the spirit camo, that one actually is sound manip, in the sense it outright removes the sound of the wearer, it completely removes any and all sound the wearer makes, as an ability of the camo itself, not via stealth, as this is stated in game in its description. Though, unlike the sneaking suit which does it via a particular material and insulation, this camo does it just because through supernatural esque means likely, given it comes from The Sorrow.

>That does not sound like instinctive reactions or more like fast reaction speed. Instinctive reaction is like being able to fight in your sleep.

I kinda agree here, Snake can react instinctively through muscle memory and the like and super fast, but not in the sense of something like Ultra Instinct.

>And it sounds more like he has resistance to Mind reading or a Telepathic barrier. I'm not sure if the Acausality statements are takin in context.

If talking about Psycho Mantis and his precog in regards to others. I don't think OP was trying to imply acausality in anyway but, you're half right. The Boss' statements about no past and future is basically saying Big Boss has no future, he's gonna be bound to eternal hell and the battlefield till the day he dies, she's speaking with flowery language, on purpose as well. But Mantis saying Solid doesnt have a future on the other hand is likely literal in context, as he's saying that to explain why he tried and failed to read his future, because he doesnt really have one set in stone so he cant see it.

Edit: The spirit camo also gives Big Boss more stamina if he physically drains the stamina of others (if he chokes someone out for example, it drains their stamina, but fills his back up). On top the aforementioned making it so others simply cant hear his movements (like walking and running) and removing his footprints.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus

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I suppose sound manipulation is fine if it's like a magical kind of force that nulls all his sounds. And oh yeah, precognition in general is being able to have knowledge of the future via various means though it's usually via visions. But, if Psycho Mantis' precognition simply comes through mind reading, I'm not sure how someone who just has visions or Cosmic awareness would be resisted by Snake though.
 
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In regards to Mantis' precog, the meta reason being there's multiple endings to the game so Mantis couldn't just read the future as the action that decides the ending happens afterwards, he couldn't tell what happens with Solid and Meryl because in one ending, she fucking dies, but in the other, she and Solid ride out into the sunset. But in-universe he couldn't see his future because, well, because he simply hasn't had his set in stone yet, there's talk about carving your own future despite your heritage later on in the game and it being a thematic part of the story but that's mostly flowery language, even if it coincides with Mantis. Either way, Mantis cant read Solid's future with his precog, nothing more, nothing less. I think Solid having resistance to psychic precognition is fair, though I'm not 100% on applying that to literally every single Snake and clone due to sharing genetics, the reason Mantis failed has absolutely zero to do with genetics and DNA so it cant really be scaled to the rest, technically speaking, the reason he couldn't is a meta 4th wall break reason, though, that's kinda Mantis' whole schtick is being a 4th wall breaking meme character, at least in 1 and 4.
A bit complicated but what I'm trying to say should come across fine.

I guess in function, this would grant Solid the ability to resists precogs that only see the future on one timeline (if the precog can see multiple futures and possibilities it should be fine and work as intended) or 4th wall precog done by looking forward into a plot or something. Kinda specific but eh, it is what it is. It's a resistance, but one that can be overcome by nonlinear precog.
 
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Hoooly shit, so much stuff to respond to, time zones are a bitch. I’ll try and respond to everything asap
 
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idk, just precog talk I guess, that's the only thing of actual note that hasn't been fully clarified. Maybe some soldier venom gene talk.
 
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Im personally fine with it, and giving Solid resistance to it. Though scaling it to literally anyone who has his DNA is sus, given the reason why Mantis couldn't read the future had nothing to do with genetics or physical traits. That ain't something that can be scaled without direct evidence for all that scale in question.
 

Armorchompy

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Same lol

I agree with the death pill talk, and with Venom being higher on the skill tier than he already is.

I'm not sure if this would change anything about it, but there's an item in TPP that allows you to use reflex mode at any time.

As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I'm also not too sure about gene scaling, a lot of the abilities of these characters don't really seem to be based on their genetics, such as, for example, the immunity to precog. There's also the fact that BB, SS and LS are all pretty different from each other, as far as clones go, especially Solid and Liquid, with that whole thing about the dominant and recessive genes.

(By the way, I did actually enjoy TPP, it's just kinda ran dry for me, since I'm mostly into the story and the bosses of these games and it's a bit lacking in both, I do think I'll have more fun playing it if I pause for a while rn so I might pick it up again in a while)
 
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>As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I actually wrote up a reply to that but opted not to post it to prevent derailing. But to give a quick summary, The only way that REX going to crush Solid would be a anti-feat is if we use Twin Snake's version of that scene. In Solid 1 the claim falls apart and doesn't actually prove or imply anything against the lifting tier that is listed at this time.

>I'm mostly into the story and the bosses of these games

MgsV's story would probably have blown my dick off if I didn't know about the Venom twist and all the other neat little things like the usual Ocelot galaxy brain bullshit tendencies. Though, even if I went in blind, probably would have been tipped off by the random dude who somehow has more experience and skill then you, "Big Boss", somehow carrying your ass through that whole event, voiced by the same VA, like that's some pretty big red flags (plus the fact you dont know russian, even though Big Boss was fluent in it). Plus the revelation that Huey is actually a schizophrenic fucking psycopath opposed to the wholesome as fuck Hal is a cool discrepancy, though that was kinda hinted at since like, MGS1, and confirmed outright in 2, but seeing how bad it really was was cool. The story though is serviceable, plus I like the cast. Not as good as the others though, but a chunk of the story is straight up missing and a lot of it is unfinished but that's more on Konami and time restraints but I still enjoy it quite a bit.

And yeah, I'm not keen on scaling precog resistance to basically the whole cast when the reason being has literally nothing to do with any shared traits. Plus the reason for Big Boss, The Boss' statements, are in reality, flowery language, talking about how Big Boss will be hellbound to fight for the rest of his life, only made worse if he kills her and becomes Big Boss, which he does. Also yeah, it's explicitly said that Venom was hypnotized to have experienced every single mission and event that Big Boss had went through on record and probably the MGS3 missions too given Ocelot was there first hand so he'd know about them. Basically VR training before VR training was a thing, and we all know how well that worked, which is to say, better then Solid gave it credit for even if it aint ideal.
 

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As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.
I'd say that doesn't really matter, the issue isn't that of it being stronger and that of still being able to lift it, which he logically couldn't because he needed Gray Fox to save him.

These lifting feats for Big Boss only come from Peace Walker and no other game in the series, they are one-off feats that should be discarded as outliers.

>As for Snake almost being crushed, it's worth pointing out that not only is REX a stronger machine than the Peace Walker ones, Kojima is famous for his retconnning tendencies.

I actually wrote up a reply to that but opted not to post it to prevent derailing. But to give a quick summary, The only way that REX going to crush Solid would be a anti-feat is if we use Twin Snake's version of that scene. In Solid 1 the claim falls apart and doesn't actually prove or imply anything against the lifting tier that is listed at this time.
You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.
 

Armorchompy

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I think I'd have hated it, honestly, though I can't really know right now. Though the "I came to save you... and to save the legend, Big Boss!" also would have tipped me off. As for Huey, it makes sense, but I think it's kind of annoying that almost everyone introduced in Peace Walker is killed off like that, especially Strangelove who I quite liked. Skullface is also cool, and the fact that I'm not gonna get to fight him sure do be givin' me some phantom pain, genius kojumbo did it again

Also uh, worth mentioning, I'm not sure if I agree with Big Boss getting Venom Snake's equipment. It makes sense that he could have it, but IDK if that's enough. Also obviously he wouldn't have the abilities that come from Venom's prosthetic arm, speaking of which does Body Control apply to prosthetics? I'm not sure about that.
 

Armorchompy

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Also, Solid Snake physically beat up Fox before, so even if Fox is physically stronger, they can't be worlds apart.
 
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>You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.

You're right, I haven't, but then again, neither have you. All you've said basically amounts to it being to high, and then proceeded to ignore the fact it happens not once, not twice, not even tree times, but four times. Supplemented by a metric fuck ton of other blatant superhuman lifting feats. And your example of "REX was going to crush Solid and Solid needed Gray Fox to save him and it's a crucial plot point", is, put bluntly, false. The only way that would work is if we use the Twin Snakes over the original, and I'm 90% sure the wiki has MGS1 take precedence. And it's also most certainly not a crucial plot point (And if it was, and if was actually a thing and happening like you're implying, which it isn't or does, it'd be PIS, as it only existed to be a plot point and nothing more). It'd only be an outlier if it happened one single time, but it doesn't, it's actually, statistically speaking, the most common lifting feat in the verse. And saying something is egregiously, ie, bad and misleading just because you disagree is a bad habit to get into. But why did I opt not to respond? Because nothing in this thread or the OP is about the lifting strength of the characters, ergo bringing it up is derailment, you're an admin so you should be aware that derailing threads with off topic points is frowned upon, you're free to make your own CRT after this one is done discussing that, but this thread isn't the place for it as the only lifting feat discussion here is about the Advanced Cyborgs, not the snakes and cast.
 
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>speaking of which does Body Control apply to prosthetics?

I'm pretty sure it's talking about Rocket Punch (and maybe the spinning stun arm). It's technically not body control, as it aint really apart of his body, but at the same time, it is? This one is entirely based on semantics and interpretation on if you do or do not consider the arm to be apart of Venom. I'm fine with Rocket Punch being considered body control to an extent, as that's usually what we consider that type of thing as for androids and robots like Android 16 or Megaman.

>I'm not sure if I agree with Big Boss getting Venom Snake's equipment.

This one is weird. I think a better word would be, that Big Boss has access to all of it, because he obviously does. Other than the arm, but that's more along the lines of he simply cant use it. Now if he would use it or have it on him at all times? Well that's another question. This should be fine if he has prep time (speaking of which, Big Boss should probably get prep time, given the fact he uh, preps for missions and changes his loudouts accordingly, and with some prep can even pull off convoluted plans to help further his goals). But obviously Venom's shit aint something he has on hand at all times, it's just something he has access to by virtue of literally owning it all, in the same vain how he has access to ZEKE if he really wanted. I think the best solution would be to add an optional equipment tab for Big Boss Post mgsv, with a link to Venom's equipment, as well as Big Boss' ZEKE for 1970's Big Boss. And then OP's of future threads can decide if they wanna grant him access to his optional timeframe specific weaponary but strictly keep it all optional and not within his standard as apart his default arsenal.
 

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Also, Solid Snake physically beat up Fox before, so even if Fox is physically stronger, they can't be worlds apart.
LS =/= AP.

>You haven't properly explained why the egregiously higher lifting strength isn't an outlier and why we should discount a legitimate plot point for it.

You're right, I haven't, but then again, neither have you. All you've said basically amounts to it being to high, and then proceeded to ignore the fact it happens not once, not twice, not even tree times, but four times. Supplemented by a metric fuck ton of other blatant superhuman lifting feats. And your example of "REX was going to crush Solid and Solid needed Gray Fox to save him and it's a crucial plot point", is, put bluntly, false. The only way that would work is if we use the Twin Snakes over the original, and I'm 90% sure the wiki has MGS1 take precedence. And it's also most certainly not a crucial plot point (And if it was, and if was actually a thing and happening like you're implying, which it isn't or does, it'd be PIS, as it only existed to be a plot point and nothing more). It'd only be an outlier if it happened one single time, but it doesn't, it's actually, statistically speaking, the most common lifting feat in the verse. And saying something is egregiously, ie, bad and misleading just because you disagree is a bad habit to get into. But why did I opt not to respond? Because nothing in this thread or the OP is about the lifting strength of the characters, ergo bringing it up is derailment, you're an admin so you should be aware that derailing threads with off topic points is frowned upon, you're free to make your own CRT after this one is done discussing that, but this thread isn't the place for it as the only lifting feat discussion here is about the Advanced Cyborgs, not the snakes and cast.
There's Big Boss lifting Cocoon and the Metal Gear leg, yes, but those are clear outliers for human level characters in Metal Gear if it was considered a task for someone like Gray Fox, who is cybernetically enhanced.

You argument is one of canon sure but it doesn't actually tackle what I'm saying, if it was false it wouldn't be there.

I disagree with the idea that my choice of words was misleading, what could be considered misleading is you saying "metric fuck ton of blatant superhuman lifting feats" but not specifying for who, that is misleading.

I was under the impression that Metal Gear stuff could be discussed here because this is quite a large CRT and thought it had room to cover more information, my intention was never to derail but I thought it was important thing to comment about.

I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.
 
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There's Big Boss lifting Cocoon and the Metal Gear leg, yes, but those are clear outliers for human level characters in Metal Gear if it was considered a task for someone like Gray Fox, who is cybernetically enhanced.

You do know what outlier means yes? It's only an outlier if it happens a single time, or such a minimal amount of times comparatively to a vast amount of other feats that required maximum exertion. But, that isn't the case, it's the most common feat in the verse in regards to lifting and the only anti feats that actually exist, as said are 1. PIS, or 2. Wasnt even an attempt. Which isnt enough to invalidate the other higher showings ranging from things like Class 10-50, K and M, and the example you're giving isnt either. It, by definition, can't be an outlier if we go by raw numbers. And Gray Fox may be cybernetically enhanced, but he was physically bested by Solid in direct hand to hand combat. Ergo, Solid and Gray aren't really all that far apart. You said AP=/=LS, and that's true, but that doesn't mean there isn't a direct correlation, saying AP and Lifting Strength arent the same is true, but saying AP and LS based on physical aptitude with a direct corroboration between two not existing is a lie. This is a verse where such arbitrary discrepancies don't exist, if two characters are physically on par, that means they're physically on par in all accounts, just not one arbitrary attribute. If Gray Fox and Solid are physically about the same, they're physically about the same on all accounts, just not one specific factor, there's zero reason to assume that to be the case, other than you simply wanting it to be, it's not actually supported in verse by any statements, and the scene you're talking about doesn't actually happen the way you're suggesting.

>You argument is one of canon sure but it doesn't actually tackle what I'm saying, if it was false it wouldn't be there.

Canon actually does matter greatly, if it was noncanon only, then it's not relevant, we dont use noncanon information or scenes to scale to canon, as rule, for all verses. Yes, because it isnt in there, only in Twin Snakes was it shown that Solid was actually in danger of being crushed, the original? Literally nothing actually happened, Solid never even got the chance to do anything or show if he could or couldn't because Gray Fox hopped in before Rex even reached him, actually, he was like a good 15ft away still And don't say "if it was false it wouldnt be there", in the same vain I can say all of the high end lifting feats cant be false otherwise they wouldnt be there. You see how that as a basis of an argument doesn't function? It goes both ways.

>I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.

>I disagree with the idea that my choice of words was misleading, what could be considered misleading is you saying "metric fuck ton of blatant superhuman lifting feats" but not specifying for who, that is misleading.

I didn't say that, you said the feat was egregiously higher than what it should be. The definition of that word is misleading and false, I wasnt saying you're being misleading, but was referring to the definition of the word you used. And what? How is me saying that there's a metric fuckton of superhuman feats misleading when there is? And you saying I didn't specify for who is a blatant lie on your part, I gave several examples earlier in the thread, and even said what a few were and who they were done by, like Solid or Volgin. No offense, but you're literally saying "no u", and saying I failed to do something when I actually had done so earlier. I'd appreciate it if you didn't spread blatant falsehoods like that, or, if you didn't see me saying that, actually read the thread.

>I however do not need you commenting on my position as staff because I am well aware of the rules, but you attempting to shun me over something lost in translation isn't exactly fair or respectful.

I'm not shunning, I'm straight up telling you to not derail the thread with unrelated topics to the proposed changes, you know how this works, you just said so yourself, you're free to make a thread detailing this specifically, but this thread isn't the place for it. You just said you know the rules, so please have some decency and not derail. To give an example, one doesnt go into a Superman ability CRT and then try and derail the thread into a CRT for his speed, same applies here, keep it relevant to the changes being discussed, there's enough here already to go over as is.
 
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I don't disagree, Chariot, you're being a bit aggressive.
I wouldn't say aggressive, there's no insulting or demeaning going on here, in fact I'm vehemently opposed to that sort of behavior in threads, definitely not my intention, but I am being blunt and speaking matter of factly, If it comes off as aggressive that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to twist my words. Saying things bluntly without risk of misinterpretation is usually the best way to go about things.
 

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It happens in a singular game in the series and never again, so yes, it would be considered an outlier,

If we didn't accept Twin Snakes whatsoever Gray Fox would not have feats from it on his profile.

The games tend to make clear how much stronger someone cybernetically enhanced is compared to people like Snake, it's why Raiden stopped Outer Haven and not him. To suggest Snake scales to Gray Fox in LS when they never actually contended in that fashion directly isn't correct.

You didn't post any lifting feat involving Volgin and I already commented on the Peace Walker feats, if I comment on Peace Walker making no sense you cannot affirm your claims that they are okay with more feats from the same game, I'm not lying about anything you said and would discourage you saying so.

EDIT: Now, I'll stop commenting on this directly and save it for the future thread because I now know we don't want to discuss it here.
 

Armorchompy

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Gary Fox' body is a lot weaker than Raiden's, even the MGS4 one. Like, it's comparable to the random enemies you mow down, except a bit worse.

EDIT: I meant to say Gray Fox, but fuck it, his name is now Gary
 
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>It happens in a singular game in the series and never again, so yes, it would be considered an outlier,

3 times in the same game actually, it isnt a stand alone feat, also an oulier needs to be consistently contradicted, and only be treated as such as a last resort, as stated by the wiki itself, not really the case here. Not how outliers work, just because it only happens in one game doesnt mean it's an outlier, when it happens multiple times in that game (and others akin to it happen in other games).

>The games tend to make clear how much stronger someone cybernetically enhanced is compared to people like Snake, it's why Raiden stopped Outer Haven and not him. To suggest Snake scales to Gray Fox in LS when they never actually contended in that fashion directly isn't correct.

Yes, Raiden is hilariously above Big Boss and Solid Snake in strength, in every single regard though, AP, LS, durability, even speed, Gray Fox though? Not really. Raiden's Lifting strength is literally 10000x that of what a peak Solid and Snake can do and Outer Haven is close to 10000 of times above Big Boss' feats (and even Gray Fox's, that's right, Raiden's dying feat is close to ten thousand times that of what Gray Fox did, making it clear that Raiden and Gray Fox aren't comparable) Raiden needed to save Snake from Outer Haven, because Outer Haven is vastly above his limit and he was literally dying, and Raiden had the ability to do this, because his body is far more advanced then the old exoskeleton Gray Fox (and mind you, Gray Fox was a exoskeleton, Raiden was a full on robot at that point with tech that humiliates Gray Fox). You're saying because a drastically more advanced and stronger Cyborg being stronger than Snake means Gray Fox is too, but that's untrue, because he's thousands of times stronger than Gray Fox as well and Gray Fox and Snake were explicitly shown to be on par in physical prowess with zero weapons and outside interference.

>You didn't post any lifting feat involving Volgin

Volgin swinging around a Davy Crocket like a wet tissue with one hand, I mentioned that above. As well as The Boss doing it too, not a superhigh feat, but it makes it explicit these characters are hilariously above human standards when it comes to lifting things to the point Olympian class feats are treated as literally nothing.

>if I comment on Peace Walker making no sense you cannot affirm your claims that they are okay with more feats from the same game, I'm not lying about anything you said and would discourage you saying so.

Who said anything about the feats being from Peace Walker? The only notable LS feats in Peace Walker are the 3 mecha benches, though, that's the only feats in that game, and they're all functionally the same, happening mid, late and end game respectively, all across. The other feat I mentioned was 4, with an Old ass Snake who's explicitly far weaker than he was his prime being able to handle weapons that have tank like recoil without budging an inch. Which if memory serves, is something like a Class 50+ feat, done by Snake at his weakest with no effort. You said I didn't give any other feats and specified who they belonged too, but that's false, so I stand by my statement, maybe you missed when I said but, that if that's the case, simply don't make claims with absolute certainty like that.

>Now, I'll stop commenting on this directly and save it for the future thread because I now know we don't want to discuss it here.

That'd be best, or at the very least, save it for when the rest of the thread gets resolved first.
 
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>In regards to the radiation resistance, it should be mentioned it's not a complete one, it renders them infertile, though other than that it did nothing at all, Big Boss even points out how most who were there with him are dying or already killed.

We are considering post-nuclear test Snake, who is shown to be completely unscathed by radiations multiple times. The fact that the first time he got hit by radiations he was rendered infertile doesn't change the fact that as of the Virtuous mission he is completely uneffected by them

>That's still not Extrasensory Perception, it's still just a different category of enhanced senses, which is super broad and can cover quite literally hundreds of types of perceptions and the like

Fine, I underestimated the extent of Enhanced senses as an ability

>Nobody else in that room could see him, unless the sorrow can selectively choose exactly who can and cant see him at the same time, it should warrant EP, plus Solid could see Mantis' ghost as well

Yeah fine

>Because he had to break out of it, he was effected, just not for long, it's a resistance, but not a full one, a minor one, he could break out, but not before being effected, hence why it should be minor, or limited, you pick, either way

The problem with Raiden's feat is that it's not just plain Paralysis he resisted, it was also hypnosis. I honestly don't see the need to add "minor" to this resistance, as manay characters such as Goku get a full resistance by initially being effected and then breaking out, it would just be a lower-tier plain resistance, "minor" would imply that it's situational, or something like that.
I agree with the Invulnerability stuff

>It wouldn't, and one sentence later the Deconstruction page says "It differs from traditional Matter Manipulation or other abilities like them by only allowing the user to break things down, not manipulate them.". Deconstruction is a subset of matter manipulation, Deconstruction is what you see Thanos do in the movie (even the main example used), Cream from JoJo when it eats something or Beerus from DBZ early on when the material around him start to get reduced to basic components like dust, being able to take a gun apart quickly isn't deconstruction, it's literally just her disassembling it, real life soldiers are trained to learn that as well.

Agree, tho i disagree with the idea that if a real human being can acquire it then it can't be an ability, but that's beside the point.

>Soliton Rader isn't though, it's just another example of enhanced senses, of course an extremely high end version that creates a map of the area and a target's location via electromagnetic waves and biological reactions.

But in the end, it's still Life Detection. The means through which it's achieved aren't really relevant, especially when the ability page lists stuff like "matter signatures", which could easily be considered to be the Soliton's reading of the target's biological reactions. Snake also doesn't have all the abilities that make up the Soliton, so putting those on his profile would require some tedious explaining.

>What? I didn't disagree with anything proposed in that section, and when I was talking about Meta reasoning, I was referring to him having no future and Mantis not being able to see the future with him and Meryl being a tongue and check reference to alternate endings

yeah yeah i know you agreed, i was just clarifying, because many still think that the controller thing is canon

>I agreed with the proposal in the end. Though Spooky brought up a better alternative so I'd rather we go with that

But Electricity Manipulation is not an alternative, it's just another thing that needs to be added. And I mean, you LITERALLY see Volgin get engulfed in flames and not suffer a single burn after the lightning bolt, if this isn't Heat Resistance then i don't know what it is. It's also worth noting that Volgin only really started to suffer after the bullets started going off, so it's not even entirely true that the lightning bolt knocked him out

>I was thinking maybe teleportation? Or telekinsis+phasing.

But he still would have had to separate the vocal cord from the parasite, which is impossible on a biological level since they are almost one in the same. Also, how would teleport work in this case? Would it be like "i target the parasite" despite PM not possibly knowing anything about the parasite? It's just complex tbh

>It isn't really fair to say that Venom being weaker then the man on fire means he's guaranteed vastly weaker than Big Boss, as Big Boss could just as well be weaker too

I never said this, what I did was debunk the idea presented on his profile that Venom scales to TMOF, that's all, I'm not saying that him being weaker automatically makes him far weaker than Big Boss, what I'm saying is that Venom is clearly shown to be nowhere near comparable to TMOF unlike what his profile states. Is TMOF also stronger than Big Boss? Possibly, but that's beside the point. Also, if Ocelot actually knew the whole thing and was just faking it, as he says in the truth tapes, then what he though "on the surface" is irrelevant, because it was informed by his subconscious. Either way, Venom never even fought Ocelot.
I NEVER said that VS would be lower than Big Boss tho. What I said is that we don't have enough proof to DEFINITIVELY say that he's equal to him, hence the "likely" rating.

>We need far more evidence than possibly it being that big. All we have to go on is that there's a huge gap between MGS4 and MGR Raiden, but a gap of like 300x? That needs sufficient evidence to suggest that, at least doesn't work here because we basically have to assume the gap is 300x when that's just conjecture

You are putting way too high of a standard for "At least". The wiki itself defines the usage of "At least" as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate", what you are referring to is "likely". I we had conclusive proof of Raiden's custom body being 300x his MGS4 one, then we wouldn't put "at least", we'd just give him T, don't you think? I don't think anyone would argue that the MGS4 feat constitutes a lower cap compared to MGR

>That isn't a difference in functionality, that's a different in intent. The Marine was intended to kill REX copies, the Arsenal ones were intended to protect Arsenal Gear. That's true, but it's never actually said they differ in statistics at all, that's an extrapolation based on what they were going to be used for, not something that was actually said

It's not just a difference in intent, the two models are literally physically different. It wasn't actually said, yes, but the deal is that MGS2 RAY's rating would already be a "likely" or "possibly", because it's just a statement and could very well be referring to outmaneuvering and not overpowering or something like that, if we put on top of this the fact that now RAY's purpose isn't even to kill MGs anymore, what are we left with? Is the fact that a wholly different model, made with a completely different purpose was stated to be capable of killing REX enough to warrant a "likely", or even just a "possibly? "possibly" we could agree on, but "likely" is just not realistic tbh

>In MGS4 Snake is piloting it, and actively reacting to Ray and his attacks, we see this on screen and Ocelot the same with him reacting and fighting Rex while in manual control. It isn't entirely computer automated, some parts may be, that's true, but it's not to the extent you're suggesting to where they wouldn't scale at all

Actually we see that the Mak III is plugged into REX, allowing Otacon to remotely control REX along with Snake, which is how Snake managed to pilot it despite not possibly knowing how to do it (and you can't even say that he would have experience, since from MGS2 we know that he can't drive helicopters). So Snake definitely doesn't scale to REX' movement, because along with the automation, he also had remote help (as to how Otacon would be able to pilot REX to that level of speed, i have no clue, but we could say that it was due to the Mk III, which is technically a Metal Gear itself an MIGHT be fast enough, I have no idea). What I'm saying is that the automation could very well cover the gap between their Massively Hypersonic reactions and the Rel+ laser, this would solve every scaling problem, because let's be honest, this feat would be an outlier if we applied it to the Snakes and Ocelot. And as I said previously, Ocelot's RAY has the same legs as the unmanned Units from MGS2, so it's highly likely that Ocelot integrated part of the unmanned "algorithm" or whatever it is that allowed those units to move autonomously.
TL;DR: Snake was aided by both the MKIII and Otacon while piloting the REX, so it doesn't scale to him; Ocelot's RAY has piece of the unmanned model on it, which implies that Ocelot modified it to have some sort of unmanned function; RAY's automated functions can cover the gap between Ocelot's Massively Hypersonic reactions and the laser

>Soldier Genes help, but Genes aren't everything, that was kinda the theme of MGS1 actually. Take Solid for example, he's actually the weakest clone, yet, somehow, he's the best, even beating his superior in Liquid in direct hand to hand. Or Raiden defeating Solidus, despite Raiden having no genes himself, and that's not even getting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes
etting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes


Solid was a lot more well trained than Liquid tho, having been trained by Big Boss, and Liquid being convinced of being the inferior clone must have played a part. Raiden is the exception that proves the rule, and Ocelot is quite possibly the only character to be more genetically gifted than Snake. Other than that, as I said, I'm neutral on Venom scaling above the Genome soldiers, if others agree, i can get on board.

>Ok so he decides not to slam them hard enough to knock them out. CQC isn't status effect inducement, it is quite literally just hitting someone hard enough to stun them, that isn't an ability

agree
 
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There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?

I was thinking of playing the MG games after V, but I'm really not enjoying it so I might just skip it. Is it your first time playing them?

Yeah I don't think it's worth a change in class, since it gets kinda nebulous that way.
But the point is that VS cannot tank attacks from TMOF
 
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The idea of characters in MG being portrayed as only average or peak humans is absolutely hilarious to me, like, did you miss the part where The Boss and Volgin bring around the 300kgs Davy Crocket like it's a random bag? Or did you miss the part where Volgin punches a hole into the Shagohood, which survived the destruction of half of the base unscathed? Or did you miss the part where Ocelot dents Outer Heaven, which demolished multiple buildings and tanked artillery fire without even flinching? Did you miss the part where Psycho Mantis has at least 3 tier 8 feats and one could go up to tier 6?

And it's also very much clear that Gray Fox is not much stronger than Snake, be it AP or LS
 
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And about the instinctive reactions, in MGS4 Snake's body naturally uses CQC despite him actively not wanting to, this isn't a matter of him reacting fast, it's a matter of his body literally going on its own to assure hi survival regardless of his conscious choices. If your own body doing something automatically despite your wishes doesn't categorize as instinctive reactions then I don't know what does.
And you could say that it's just muscle memory, but so what? If his muscle memory leads to something like this, why not categorize it as IR? Muscle memory is merely the means through which he gets the ability. This isn't even about him moving his arm or anything of the sort, it's literally a whole ass martial art that his body autonomously uses. Of course it's not the same as Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't have to be
 
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And about the Precog thing: I'm not scaling to genes when I give it to Liquid, but due to Psycho Mantis' statement of the FOXHOUND being like Snake, and I quote: "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment". Psycho Mantis clearly states here that the FOXHOUND share the same characteristic as Snake, and it also makes sense, because if Mantis could read the future of the FOXHOUND members, he would have known that Ocelot was going to kill the DARPA chief intentionally etc (and don't say that it wouldn't be in character for him to read his team mates' future, because he' 100% an asshole and would do it)
 
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Great job on such a massive effort!
OP looks good to me at first glance, but I'm not enough of an expert to comment on the controversial stuff.
 
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Jesus christ, timezones are evil, I'll end up beinng ignored all throughout the day and then receive an avalanche of comments during the night
 
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>Ocelot was like oh shit oh fuck when the man on fire appeared. I should also mention that the man on fire was a threat to Big Boss, Ishmael, to what extent it's hard to say, but Ishmael was put into some dangerous situations as well and made it a priority to get the fuck away from him at all costs.

But nothing necessarily implies that Ocelot is scared due to AP, it's more likely due to TMOF being a big, unstoppable fire man who can summon whales and unicorns as well as teleporting around. The fear could also be due to the very tangible possibility of Venom dying. The problem with Ishmael was that Big Boss was going out of his way to seem like a normal human, to the point where he didn't even use CQC on Quiet, it wouldn't be completely ludicrous to say that BB just pretended to not be able to stop him, because if the guy who was supposed to be an average Joe just punches the fire-man's teeth in then the whole thing just crumbles.

But I do agree that things are not quite clear cut with Venom, that's why I'm opting for a "likely" and not "possibly".
 
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>We are considering post-nuclear test Snake, who is shown to be completely unscathed by radiations multiple times. The fact that the first time he got hit by radiations he was rendered infertile doesn't change the fact that as of the Virtuous mission he is completely uneffected by them

Yes, but it's true that we was indeed effected by radiations, just to a trivial degree, though, the first time around, he became infertile. He aint getting sick or cancer from radiation, but it's been shown radiation does effect him, just not to a big degree. Though, other than infertility, nothing really happened. Mind you, I never said they shouldnt have a resistance, or that it can't be flat out. It's good enough to where I agree a simple flat out resistance is sufficient and fair, all I ask is that a mention be made that it rendered both Big Boss and The Boss infertile, that's all.

>Fine, I underestimated the extent of Enhanced senses as an ability

Cool.

>Yeah fine

I mentioned two more examples later on, with The Boss' soul and Solid being able to see The Sorrow in MGS4 too, but ok glad we agree on that front.

>The problem with Raiden's feat is that it's not just plain Paralysis he resisted, it was also hypnosis. I honestly don't see the need to add "minor" to this resistance, as manay characters such as Goku get a full resistance by initially being effected and then breaking out.

I thought it was also a bit of shadow manipulation as well, as Vamp pins their shadow with a knife. Though in the case of Big Boss and the freeze beam and Raiden with Vamp, both cases had them be effected by it, but had to struggle to break free, of course they did it, but the fact that they were effected and had to struggle suggests not a full on resistance. Though, Minor does sound harsh, so I propose just say it's a limited resistance, that or, as said, make it perfectly clear in the justification that they were effected and had to struggle to break free first.

>Agree, tho i disagree with the idea that if a real human being can acquire it then it can't be an ability, but that's beside the point.

I guess I wasn't clear on that front, saying a human can do it irl wasn't meant to imply it cant be a real ability, but rather that the thing showcased was a real skill people have that is evidently not deconstruction. And that what she did was just said skill on roids.

>But in the end, it's still Life Detection. The means through which it's achieved aren't really relevant, especially when the ability page lists stuff like "matter signatures", which could easily be considered to be the Soliton's reading of the target's biological reactions. Snake also doesn't have all the abilities that make up the Soliton, so putting those on his profile would require some tedious explaining.

It's life detection, but the means actually do matter. It can detect life yes, but we know how it detects life, and it isnt via extrasensory perception. It's through electromagnetic manipulation. Simply being able to sense life isnt extrasensory perception, even though extrasensory perception can be life detection and vice versa. It's like how All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Simply sensing life isnt extrasensory, even if some times it is. We know how the radar does it, and it doesnt qualify. It's a different ability altogether. And tedious or not, our goal is to be accurate. But it really wouldnt be that hard, linking through text is a thing we can do and often do anyway, simply explain how it works, and when the relevant wording comes up, have that line of text link to the ability. And in regards to matter signatures, yes, it may be able to pinpoint things like that, but it isnt through extrasensory perception, it's through electromagnetic waves bouncing off things like a sonar and registering and recording biological targets that it hits and sends them back to the user in the form of a map, it's not extrasensory in anyway, it can even be recorded like normal sonar and have 3D maps be created out of the pings as shown in MGS4 with Naomi and Sunny.

>But Electricity Manipulation is not an alternative, it's just another thing that needs to be added. And I mean, you LITERALLY see Volgin get engulfed in flames and not suffer a single burn after the lightning bolt, if this isn't Heat Resistance then i don't know what it is. It's also worth noting that Volgin only really started to suffer after the bullets started going off, so it's not even entirely true that the lightning bolt knocked him out

Ok so, I went back and watched the two scenes were this is relevant. In scene 1, when Snake fights Volgin as the C4 is about to explode, he does catch fire, and is completely fine. So, resistance at least on the caliber of basic fire is fine. But, the second time, where he gets struck by light and the bullets start firing and he gets engulfed in flames, I'm sorry to disagree here, but in this example he very clearly gets overwhelmed, and isnt fine, his body after the fact is completely scorched and blackened, which is something the bullets simply wouldnt do. So resistance to heat is indeed fine, just not on the caliber of a natural lightning bolt, as he was ultimately defeated by one and reduced to a charred corpse with it even being pointed out the irony in a lightning bolt doing him in.

>But he still would have had to separate the vocal cord from the parasite, which is impossible on a biological level since they are almost one in the same. Also, how would teleport work in this case? Would it be like "i target the parasite" despite PM not possibly knowing anything about the parasite? It's just complex tbh

Psycho Mantis was aware of the parasites though and knew all about them? He even stole the english strain from Skull Face and gave it to Liquid to use against MB. Plus he worked closely with Skull Face, let alone he could read minds so if he wanted he'd know everything about them from Skull Face and Eli, which he probably did anyway. But yeah, simply teleporting them out and just them could be a possibility, or phasing, it's honestly hard to say. Biological Manip, as said, could be a very real possibility, it's just hard to say for certain because other explanations can exist using what we already know and the fact the cutscene itself isnt finished makes it hard to tell with certainty what happened. But I'm fine with bio manip, as long as it's prefixed with a Likely/Possibility.

>I never said this, what I did was debunk the idea presented on his profile that Venom scales to TMOF, that's all, I'm not saying that him being weaker automatically makes him far weaker than Big Boss, what I'm saying is that Venom is clearly shown to be nowhere near comparable to TMOF unlike what his profile states. Is TMOF also stronger than Big Boss? Possibly, but that's beside the point.

I do agree that the wording must be changed, physically TMOF and Venom never actually fought, and the few physical encounters we have seen is just Venom being knocked back and TMOF not actively following through on anything so that reasoning should indeed go. Though, I still think a case can be made to scale Venom's durability to TMOF's projectiles.

>Also, if Ocelot actually knew the whole thing and was just faking it, as he says in the truth tapes, then what he though "on the surface" is irrelevant, because it was informed by his subconscious. Either way, Venom never even fought Ocelot.

That's partially right, Ocelot knew the truth, but for a chunk of the game, he didn't, kinda. Like Venom, he subjugated himself to Hypnotherapy to make him think Venom was the real Big Boss too, the hyponotherapy eventually wore off for him though later in the game behind the scenes, but for the time period where Ocelot forced himself to forget about the real Big Boss, he didnt notice anything off at all from what we can gather.

>I NEVER said that VS would be lower than Big Boss tho. What I said is that we don't have enough proof to DEFINITIVELY say that he's equal to him, hence the "likely" rating.

Ok, that's fair. I'm fine with that as a base. Though I'm pretty sure he'd still be solidly 8-B for scaling to characters like Quiet and The Skulls in physicals, given he can outright overwhelm and physically restrain them like with Quiet.

>You are putting way too high of a standard for "At least". The wiki itself defines the usage of "At least" as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate", what you are referring to is "likely". I we had conclusive proof of Raiden's custom body being 300x his MGS4 one, then we wouldn't put "at least", we'd just give him T, don't you think? I don't think anyone would argue that the MGS4 feat constitutes a lower cap compared to MGR

I'm not putting to high a standard, I'm just not keen on superficially given prefixes that arent warranted. And yes, that's true, but that only really applies to tiers and gaps where said value is actually indeterminate. The value isnt indeterminate though, it's Class G, not any higher, not any lower. We don't add At least ____ to something when the value, no matter how you slice, is still solidly with that tier. MGS4 Raiden is Class G, MGR Raiden, despite being hilariously above MGS4, is still Class G, just a way higher degree, ergo, the rating is still just flat out Class G.

>It's not just a difference in intent, the two models are literally physically different.

They're barely different though, not nearly enough of a difference to suggest any drastic difference with stats. Especially when no such thing is implied, the differences we do know of aren't even about stats, it's mostly just manned and unmanned utility.

> It wasn't actually said, yes, but the deal is that MGS2 RAY's rating would already be a "likely" or "possibly", because it's just a statement and could very well be referring to outmaneuvering and not overpowering or something like that,

Are you talking about how RAY is meant to defeat the REX units? And it could just be talking about having better mobility? That's actually true, RAY does have better mobility, but, that's a half truth. RAY is explicitly stated to be able to kill REX's, if memory serves, it's outright said to be a "REX killer" and made to combat Metal Gears. If RAY lacked the AP to defeat REX's, then it'd be useless, mobility or not, being incapable of harming your target makes you kinda useless as a killer. And for durability, well we see that RAY from MGS2, just with a few adjustments and a nice paintjob can take a huge beating from REX in MGS4, being stomped, slammed, missile'd, laser'd, crunched, etc before going down, and even then, it was mostly intact.

>if we put on top of this the fact that now RAY's purpose isn't even to kill MGs anymore, what are we left with? Is the fact that a wholly different model, made with a completely different purpose was stated to be capable of killing REX enough to warrant a "likely", or even just a "possibly? "possibly" we could agree on, but "likely" is just not realistic tbh

As explained above, the Marine RAY is definitely comparable to REX, maybe not exact, but enough to fight it and kill copies. I can agree with possibly, I understand where you're coming from, possibly is a fair enough compromise between both interpretations.

>Actually we see that the Mak III is plugged into REX, allowing Otacon to remotely control REX along with Snake, which is how Snake managed to pilot it despite not possibly knowing how to do it (and you can't even say that he would have experience, since from MGS2 we know that he can't drive helicopters).

Yeah, the MKII helped him pilot it, Otacon says himself, he'd help Snake learn and get use to it fast. He was helped to learn and pick up on it quickly, but that's it. Him not having experience with helicopters years prior doesn't really change anything said. Snake in MGS2 simply didnt ever interact with a helicopter before in a attempt to pilot it, and in the context of the game, he didnt have time to fuck around and get use to it due to hostages and being busy, thus, it was better to just have Otacon, someone who already knew how, deal with all that shit. Couple that with Solid being a clone of Big Boss, he'd be able to learn how to pilot things extremely fast if he bothered. judging by the aerial combat prodigy that is Liquid, which is kinda what happens in MGS4, he picks up on how to pilot REX very fast to the point he's actually not half bad and can fight Ocelot.

>So Snake definitely doesn't scale to REX' movement, because along with the automation, he also had remote help (as to how Otacon would be able to pilot REX to that level of speed, i have no clue, but we could say that it was due to the Mk III, which is technically a Metal Gear itself an MIGHT be fast enough, I have no idea).

Actually, in the case of just plain movement, Solid is 100% the person who's controlling that manually, we see him do in cutscenes, and we see him move in gameplay. MKII being the reason why doesn't change anything either, as MKII had been blitzed at points before (and the fact Otacon controls it).

>What I'm saying is that the automation could very well cover the gap between their Massively Hypersonic reactions and the Rel+ laser, this would solve every scaling problem, because let's be honest, this feat would be an outlier if we applied it to the Snakes and Ocelot. And as I said previously, Ocelot's RAY has the same legs as the unmanned Units from MGS2, so it's highly likely that Ocelot integrated part of the unmanned "algorithm" or whatever it is that allowed those units to move autonomously.

Except in zero circumstance is that ever implied or said. Ocelot is also shown to be piloting Ray himself in the cutscene, along with Snake. It doesn't scale every scaling problem because there's a lot more reasons why it would scale back to the main cast too, I'll add a few examples in a bit. Ocelot's unit was modified but it was a manned unit, not a AI controlled one, nothing says or implies that, and we're explicitly shown that he's 100% the person in control of it. It isn't likely, it's never said anywhere or implied, and if it did it wouldnt matter due to reasons I'll get to in a second.

>Snake was aided by both the MKIII and Otacon while piloting the REX, so it doesn't scale to him; Ocelot's RAY has piece of the unmanned model on it, which implies that Ocelot modified it to have some sort of unmanned function; RAY's automated functions can cover the gap between Ocelot's Massively Hypersonic reactions and the laser

That's true Snake was aided, but not enough to discredit scaling, we know for a fact he's the person in control, controlling the attacks, where to move, when to move, reacting to Ray and so on. We know it's almost entirely him due to CODEC and Otacon's statements through the fight. One such example is Otacon yelling at Snake to dodge, ergo, Snake is dodging, not an AI and not MKII, Otacon is specifically telling Snake to keep up the good job on dodging RAY's attacks, said RAY the performs that Rel+ feat (which was likely entirely Ocelot). And even if it was due to an AI, wouldnt matter, because Solidus could blitz AI controlled RAY units in MGS2, unless you want to argue that even the AI used between RAY's in MGS2 and the hypothetical AI Ocelot may of implemented aren't at all comparable either. But at that point that's going a bit to far into complete conjecture and guessing for my liking as it's not supported by any claim in game. Also, another note, if you're saying Ocelot's MGR was modified to have Unmanned unit's body parts, that would actually support the two RAY models being not that different if at all, as the RAY parts taken from the Arsenal Units faired just as well against REX's attacks as the Marine RAY body parts did. But regardless, I see no feasible way for the mecha's to scale to Rel+ without it effecting scaling of the Solid tier characters, there's far to many showings that would scale them to the mecha, and the worst part is, the Rel+ feat is likely just straight up Ocelot's, at least in perception. If it's an outlier, that's fine, I'm not arguing for this to be implemented, that was never my intent, by point this whole time was if the mecha are Rel+, the so are the main cast. If we treat the feat as an outlier, that's fine as well.

>Solid was a lot more well trained than Liquid tho, having been trained by Big Boss, and Liquid being convinced of being the inferior clone must have played a part. Raiden is the exception that proves the rule, and Ocelot is quite possibly the only character to be more genetically gifted than Snake. Other than that, as I said, I'm neutral on Venom scaling above the Genome soldiers, if others agree, i can get on board.

I'm not entirely sure on the Solid being more well trained than Liquid thing, yeah Solid was trained by Big Boss, by Eli had more experience and fucked around with Venom and the Diamond Dogs in his youth. Plus, as we know, the Snakes can pick up on skills with very little exposure, and unlike Solid, he had no issue using CQC or handicapping himself. Honestly, absolutely everything pointed to Liquid winning that fight, but he didn't because Gene's arent everything, which is the whole point of the game. Him being convinced of being inferior would actually help him win, he was absolutely deadset on proving his inferior genetics wrong and wanted be better then his better half and Big Boss, he was going all out with a explicit goal, when in reality, he was already the better, Basically just motivated him to do better. Raiden isn't really the exception though, half the point was anyone could be Snake, Raiden is notable and extraordinary though, but not anymore than Venom would be in this event. And yeah, Ocelot has some fucking super genes, so not disagreement there. Well, I stand by Venom scaling above the Genomes, he has better feats, showings, even hype and lore, and it aint like Venom losing to Solid is any reason against him being above, as the genomes get fodderized by Snake too, and characters that basically are Genomes but on crack like Frank, were bested by rookie Solid too, actually based on that alone I'd say Solid Young>Venom>?Frank>Genomes.

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>But nothing necessarily implies that Ocelot is scared due to AP

Then why be afraid at all? If TMOF lacked the AP, then Ocelot was in literally zero danger there. No reason to worry, hell, why not just go beat the shit out of him yourself? It'd prevent Venom from risk and cease TMOF from being a issue if Ocelot could just facetank his attacks. Though I'll check tomorrow, I'll open up the mission and let TMOF attack Ocelot and see if Ocelot is actually hurt by it or what happens if TMOF catches up to you and Ocelot.

>The problem with Ishmael was that Big Boss was going out of his way to seem like a normal human, to the point where he didn't even use CQC on Quiet, it wouldn't be completely ludicrous to say that BB just pretended to not be able to stop him, because if the guy who was supposed to be an average Joe just punches the fire-man's teeth in then the whole thing just crumbles.

Was he though? I don't recall him actively trying to seem normal, in fact him effortlessly putting bullets in heads in a fraction of a second, knowing exactly what to do, and all this other stuff kinda implies he wasnt trying really hard (plus he did kinda panic when he was set on fire briefly). Was he trying not to be Big Boss? Sure. But was he actively pretending to be normal? If he was he failed completely and barely tried. Also apparently TMOF was a threat to Big Boss, a pretty big one actually, it's one of the reasons why Ocelot and Big Boss wanted a body double then and there, that being Vemon, as they caught wind of TMOF being a thing and knew it posed a risk to Big Boss, so they hastened their eventual plan for a double.

>But I do agree that things are not quite clear cut with Venom, that's why I'm opting for a "likely" and not "possibly".

Eh, I'm unsure, if worst comes to worst I can agree with this but, I still flat out 8-B is fine, just to a lesser degree than Big Boss, but given Big Boss is 2x into 8-B to begin with, Venom being 8-B as well should be sufficient, it's not exactly reasonable to say he's over 2x as weak as Big Boss or any of the snakes. Plus, he can take hits from TMOF for what it's worth in game and as stated above TMOF was a threat to Big Boss enough to where he needed a body double sooner than later.
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To summarize
Radiation Manip is obviously fine, no need to give it limited or minor, just make a note that it rendered them infertile.
Resistance to Para inducement is fine, but I still stand by it being minor, limited or heavily specified that the resistance isnt perfect and they still get effected by the ability for a brief while. Either one, it doesn't matter, but one has to be chosen.
soliton Rader still aint Extrasensory Perception, we know exactly what it does and how it works and none of what it does qualifies, simply being able to sense life isn't enough when the mechanics of the ability are explicitly something else and he's not actually sensing "life", in the sense of something like life force, he's sensing a body's biological reactions via EMP, not the same thing.
Resistance to heat for Volgin is fine, but to the extent of fire and the like, extreme heat like from direct lightning bolts is above him, as it did in fact burn him alive and turn him to charcoal layered corpse as we see in MGS3.
Psycho Mantis having Biomanip is fine as long as it is listed as likely or possibly, it isn't 100% certain it's biomanip so we should reflect that in the profile.
The reasoning for Venom's stats and scaling to TMOF needs a overhaul, the reason given right now is faulty, so I agree.
I still whole heartily believe that if RAY is Rel+ so is Ocelot and Solid and those that scale, there's to many feats and scaling between them and the mecha, and it's explicitly said Solid was controlling REX, even being the entity who was dodging RAY's attacks as stated by Otacon and there isn't any evidence for RAY being AI controlled, even if a bit, and if it was, it'd just end up scaling to Solidus instead via blitzing the AI Ray Units. If the feat is a outlier and not implemented, that's fine, but I'm not arguing for it to be used, just that by proxy, both are Rel+, or neither are.
The rest is basically just back and forth TMOF, Venom, Ocelot and Big Boss scaling. I literally lost track of what I was saying a few times and pretty sure I said the same things a few times, it's late so it's probably best if I get some sleep so I can make a better post detailing this without repetition and double check the game tomorrow and look through it for statements and scaling, but, if nothing can be found, worse case scenario, I can get behind Likely 8-B, but at the moment, I'm of the belief that Venom is weaker than Big Boss, but not enough to where he's not at least comparable, possibly supported by him physically overpowering SKULL units in cinematics and CQC events as well as maybe taking hits from TMOF, though that's only in gameplay so further corroboration will be needed, as such I'll make an effort to look for statements and better feats tomorrow.
everything else we either agree on or it's fine and not worth detailing further.

Anyway thanks for reading my book.
 
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>And about the instinctive reactions, in MGS4 Snake's body naturally uses CQC despite him actively not wanting to, this isn't a matter of him reacting fast, it's a matter of his body literally going on its own to assure hi survival regardless of his conscious choices. If your own body doing something automatically despite your wishes doesn't categorize as instinctive reactions then I don't know what does.
And you could say that it's just muscle memory, but so what? If his muscle memory leads to something like this, why not categorize it as IR? Muscle memory is merely the means through which he gets the ability. This isn't even about him moving his arm or anything of the sort, it's literally a whole ass martial art that his body autonomously uses. Of course it's not the same as Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't have to be

Because it IR as we define it. What Snakes does is no different than what someone does when they drop a cup, they instinctively go and grab it without really thinking. That's essentially what Snake does. He reacts because he's used to being in situations like that, but looking further, that isn't even the case or what happens. Though, he actually willingly does use CQC in 4, kinda, he doesnt want to yes, but he still chose to do it anyway out of hatred, while in MG2 and MGS 1 and 2, he refused, and as such, he simply didnt. I guess you could say he has Instinctive Reactions in MGS4, but it's so hyper specific and limited it's not even funny, his body only reacts instinctively when he's attacked with a specific fighting style, that being CQC, and his body reacts by using the real version of that fighting style out of spite. Other than that, Solid doesn't got Instinctive Reactions, it only ever occurred in response to bad CQC out of spite and some sort of deep heated hatred for Big Boss and what the world has done to him. For anyone following the thread, here's the source for that one and the context. Ultra Instinct was a bit of an extreme example but you get my point.

So if you really want him to have IR, it'd be a case of Limited IR and only in extremely specific circumstances as Solid himself explains. For dodging Sniper Wolf's bullet, that's Twin Snakes, but even if we use that, he could have just saw the bullet and moved his head, as it was heading straight for within his line of sight, compare it to Olga's bullet feat, where he dodges the bullet by moving his head and in MGS1, he actually gets hit in the shoulder because he doesnt notice it coming.

But, I think there may actually be reason for Solid and Big Boss to have IR despite that, I'll have to look into it.
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>And about the Precog thing: I'm not scaling to genes when I give it to Liquid, but due to Psycho Mantis' statement of the FOXHOUND being like Snake, and I quote: "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment". Psycho Mantis clearly states here that the FOXHOUND share the same characteristic as Snake, and it also makes sense, because if Mantis could read the future of the FOXHOUND members, he would have known that Ocelot was going to kill the DARPA chief intentionally etc (and don't say that it wouldn't be in character for him to read his team mates' future, because he' 100% an asshole and would do it)

Maybe, I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally in the event of Liquid and Ocelot, didnt Mantis literally look into Liquid's future at one point off screen? And no, I full believe Mantis would read his team mates mind, but when it comes to Ocelot, I dont think reading his mind actually helps to know what the fuck he's planning given half the time even he himself doesnt know. Though I'm actually more inclined to say that's just an example of "dont think to hard about it", but either way. I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally and at face value in response to the other characters given the reason why Mantis couldnt read it was meta, and while normally meta reasoning absolutely doesnt effect in-universe reasoning, Mantis as a character is entirely based on meta. I'm neutral on scaling it to FOX HOUND based on that, if others agree that's fine, I have no real qualms with as long as it doesnt touch genetic scaling in the slightest.

t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶M̶a̶n̶t̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶S̶o̶l̶i̶d̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶u̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶w̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶4̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶c̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶b̶v̶i̶o̶u̶s̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶t̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶.̶

Anyway thanks for tuning into my post scrip apparently, I'm out, will check in tomorrow if there's no new posts after I click publish.

To summarize. If you want to go that route for IR, it'd ultra specific and situational with the info we have. But, I think there may be reasoning elsewhere so I'll get back to that.
Precog for FOX I'm neutral on, but absolutely not scaling it to characters like Solidus, or Big Boss (unfortunately) without proof or statements (The Boss' statements aren't literal and have a different meaning we explicitly know for a fact what she meant).
 

Armorchompy

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I do agree the Precog applying to the rest of FOX doesn't make much sense, it feels too vague for it to apply fully.

I should point out we treat stuff as a shark's sixth sense as Extrasensory Perception, so I think some of the snakes' tech would also apply.

Ocelot jumping off the horse, cracking his knuckles and beating the shit out of the Man on Fire is a very funny visual image.

I think assuming the Relativistic movement speed for Metal Gears doesn't scale to the humans requires a lot of hypothesis and conclusions that don't quite feel right, so it might have to be treated as an outlier.
 
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It's life detection, but the means actually do matter. It can detect life yes, but we know how it detects life, and it isnt via extrasensory perception. It's through electromagnetic manipulation. Simply being able to sense life isnt extrasensory perception, even though extrasensory perception can be life detection and vice versa. It's like how All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Simply sensing life isnt extrasensory, even if some times it is. We know how the radar does it, and it doesnt qualify. It's a different ability altogether. And tedious or not, our goal is to be accurate. But it really wouldnt be that hard, linking through text is a thing we can do and often do anyway, simply explain how it works, and when the relevant wording comes up, have that line of text link to the ability. And in regards to matter signatures, yes, it may be able to pinpoint things like that, but it isnt through extrasensory perception
I think you are very much confusing Extrasensory perception, putting it as both a means AND an end. You are saying that for the soliton's Life Detection to be Extrasensory Perception it would have to be acquired via Extrasensory Perception, which doesn't really make sense. The page for ESP doesn't specify that it has to be via supernatural means, it merely says "the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user". The truth of the matter is that the Soliton can detect life via Matter signatures; the fact that IT does it via means that could be boiled down into Enhanced Senses is irrelevant, the Soliton STILL senses life and STILL does it via matter signatures; seriously, saying that the Soliton's matter-signature-reading doesn't give the Soliton Extrasensory Perception just because it is not OBTAINED via Extrasensory Perception is a complete paradox: matter-signature-reading is a REQUIREMENT for ESP, it's not obtained via ESP.
But, the second time, where he gets struck by light and the bullets start firing and he gets engulfed in flames, I'm sorry to disagree here, but in this example he very clearly gets overwhelmed, and isnt fine, his body after the fact is completely scorched and blackened, which is something the bullets simply wouldnt do. So resistance to heat is indeed fine, just not on the caliber of a natural lightning bolt, as he was ultimately defeated by one and reduced to a charred corpse with it even being pointed out the irony in a lightning bolt doing him in.
But he isn't "completely scorched and blackened", not at all, he merely has some charring over him, and you clearly see that most of it is already there before the lightning even struck him, and you can also see that he hasn't become any more charred after catching fire, what really does him in are the bullets, hell, he doesn't even scream before those start going off
Like Venom, he subjugated himself to Hypnotherapy to make him think Venom was the real Big Boss too, the hyponotherapy eventually wore off for him though later in the game behind the scenes, but for the time period where Ocelot forced himself to forget about the real Big Boss, he didnt notice anything off at all from what we can gather
But Ocelot expressly talks about doublethink, in order to subconsciously know the truth when the time comes. Hell, there's absolutely no way he didn't notice anything off, the Phantom Cigar itself is a complete giveaway to anyone who knows Big Boss
I'm not putting to high a standard, I'm just not keen on superficially given prefixes that arent warranted. And yes, that's true, but that only really applies to tiers and gaps where said value is actually indeterminate. The value isnt indeterminate though, it's Class G, not any higher, not any lower. We don't add At least ____ to something when the value, no matter how you slice, is still solidly with that tier
But you are tho. The value IS determinate, but it's undeniably a low cap for the characters; the point is that we know that the gap is ridiculous to the point where it might actually be 300x (fuck, the gap in AP between the 2 bodies is more than 700x, MGS4 at 156 tons and MGR at 120.000 tons), saying that it DEFINITELY IS 300x is an assumption, sure, but so is saying that it DEFINITELY ISN'T, what's sure is that the Class G feat scales to a weaker version of a fodder character and that MGR Raiden is almost a thousand times stronger than MGS4 Raiden in AP. What you are saying is that MGR Raiden cannot possibly be more than 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden, which is an assumption contraddicted by the AP gap, which is more than 2 times bigger than the required gap.
They're barely different though, not nearly enough of a difference to suggest any drastic difference with stats. Especially when no such thing is implied, the differences we do know of aren't even about stats, it's mostly just manned and unmanned utility.
What more difference do you want than being built for completely different reasons and being completely different physically (the unmanned ones don't even have a tail)? The Arsenal RAYs were mass produced quickly to eliminate average human tech, the Marines' were specifically made JUST to kill Metal Gears, how is this not a change that implies a stat difference? They were built to fight completely different targets that aren't even comparable power-wise
it's outright said to be a "REX killer" and made to combat Metal Gears. If RAY lacked the AP to defeat REX's, then it'd be useless, mobility or not, being incapable of harming your target makes you kinda useless as a killer. And for durability, well we see that RAY from MGS2, just with a few adjustments and a nice paintjob can take a huge beating from REX in MGS4, being stomped, slammed, missile'd, laser'd, crunched, etc before going down, and even then, it was mostly intact.
Did you forget about the Radome? RAY could very well just wreck the Radome and kill the person inside without needing to scale to REX' durability. You call RAY's completely different legs "a few adjustments"?

I'm not entirely sure on the Solid being more well trained than Liquid thing, yeah Solid was trained by Big Boss, by Eli had more experience and fucked around with Venom and the Diamond Dogs in his youth. Plus, as we know, the Snakes can pick up on skills with very little exposure, and unlike Solid, he had no issue using CQC or handicapping himself. Honestly, absolutely everything pointed to Liquid winning that fight, but he didn't because Gene's arent everything, which is the whole point of the game. Him being convinced of being inferior would actually help him win, he was absolutely deadset on proving his inferior genetics wrong and wanted be better then his better half and Big Boss, he was going all out with a explicit goal, when in reality, he was already the better, Basically just motivated him to do better
Solid was formally trained by Big Boss, whereas Eli never really had any training in CQC , and didn't show a prowess in it even after being exposed to it multiple times throughout MGS5; all he had was the experience from his White Mamba days and an SAS training, which doesn't even remotely compare to Outer Heaven training. The point of MGS1 isn't that genes aren't everything, it's that you are not bound by your genetics when it comes to what you can do with your life, which is a completely different thing from saying that genes aren't relevant to your combat prowess, because it's shown multiple times throughout the series that yes, the Snakes and Ocelot are just stupidly better than anyone else by default.
Then why be afraid at all? If TMOF lacked the AP, then Ocelot was in literally zero danger there. No reason to worry, hell, why not just go beat the shit out of him yourself? It'd prevent Venom from risk and cease TMOF from being a issue if Ocelot could just facetank his attacks
...because it's a huge, immortal fire guy who can teleport and summon fire animals? And Ocelot is never outright "scared", at most he's panicked and tells Venom to get out of there. The point about Ocelot just going there to punch TMOF is honestly ridiculous.
Ocelot only briefly mentions TMOF as one of the reasons for the whole thing to be moved ahead of schedule, he only says "and the man on fire picked this time to wake up too", which doesn't imply him being a significantly pressing threat. But even then, TMOF being a threat to BB is absolutely irrelevant, at best it demonstrates that he's comparable to him, which is something that was already taken for granted.
Literally the only possible scaling VS has to 8-B is TMOF, and he's stupidly weaker than him, that's not enough to warrant a full tier imo
Because it IR as we define it. What Snakes does is no different than what someone does when they drop a cup, they instinctively go and grab it without really thinking. That's essentially what Snake does. He reacts because he's used to being in situations like that, but looking further, that isn't even the case or what happens
You are still describing a case in which Snake's body automatically reacts, and which is nowhere near as simple as grabbing a falling cup

I guess you could say he has Instinctive Reactions in MGS4, but it's so hyper specific and limited it's not even funny, his body only reacts instinctively when he's attacked with a specific fighting style, that being CQC, and his body reacts by using the real version of that fighting style out of spite
It's not nearly as hyper specific as you claim it to be. CQC is composed of different, real world martial arts, this would mean that wen approached by anyone of these martial arts (and there's like 20 of them) Snake will instinctively react.

Other than that, Solid doesn't got Instinctive Reactions, it only ever occurred in response to bad CQC out of spite and some sort of deep heated hatred for Big Boss and what the world has done to him.
Not really, there's also the case of him dodging Sniper Wolf's sniper round without him possibly knowing beforehand
Maybe, I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally in the event of Liquid and Ocelot, didnt Mantis literally look into Liquid's future at one point off screen?
There's nothing to "take literally", Psycho Mantis literally just said "this is the reason why I cannot read your future, the members FOXHOUND are the same", simple as that. And no, I think that Psycho Mantis simply read his mind, something not even Solid resists, so it's not even a counterfeat. I don't know why you want to take these statements about "losing your future" (which is inherently allegorical as a statement) literally.
Though I'm actually more inclined to say that's just an example of "dont think to hard about it", but either way. I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally and at face value in response to the other characters given the reason why Mantis couldnt read it was meta, and while normally meta reasoning absolutely doesnt effect in-universe reasoning, Mantis as a character is entirely based on meta
but as I said, the meta reason is irrelevant, we are given a canon, in-universe reason by PM himself, and he also says that the same reason applies to Ocelot and Liquid
 
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The RAY thing is far more complex and that's why I devided it from the other arguments.

The first thing to point out is that these are different Speeds for RAY and Ocelot. It's a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it dodged an attack, basically the definition of "combat speed") and a Reactions feat for Ocelot (very minor movement, if any).

In MGS2 Scott Dolph states that RAY has a JTIDS that allows it to autonomously identify targets and fire at them, from this we know that even the Manned RAY has an extremely significant automatic side to it.

but looking at the whole context of the feat I posted, you can see here that the dodge happens right after RAY was knocked to the ground. There is no true way of knowing if Ocelot inputted the jump WHILE RAY was on the ground.
What I'm saying is that Ocelot could have very well just "told" RAY to jump while it was on the ground, and the RAY jumped as soon as it could. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it could explain it, ity would be a sort of "aim dodge" situation for Ocelot that wouldn't inder RAY's feat, since RAY still moved that fast.

The easies solution tho is to take it as both an outlier and a valid feat: an outlier as a Reaction Speed feat for Ocelot (because it's vastly above what Ocelot usually displays) and valid as a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it's RAY's only real speed feat, is goes well with the idea of it being significantly faster than REX).

And with Snake and REX, I'm just gonna say that you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief and, as you said about Psycho Mantis, "dont think to hard about it". Snake clearly had help from Otacon in piloting the thing, to the point where Otacon had control over every internal function of REX. If Otacon had enough control over REX to make it significantly faster and to unlock an entire combat-program, it's not at all a stretch that he helped Snake out in the moving department.

as to the scaling to the unamnned units, again, Ocelot's model is modified significantly and was made to counter REX, including his laser, the unmanned units would at best scale to "possibly"

And even if it was due to an AI, wouldnt matter, because Solidus could blitz AI controlled RAY units in MGS2, unless you want to argue that even the AI used between RAY's in MGS2 and the hypothetical AI Ocelot may of implemented aren't at all comparable eithe
Except the unmanned RAY units were being effected by the worm planted by Snake and the crew, so they were nowhere near at thir average "mental capacity" during their confrontation with Solidus, hell, most of them don't even move and just stay there, twitching
if you're saying Ocelot's MGR was modified to have Unmanned unit's body parts, that would actually support the two RAY models being not that different if at all, as the RAY parts taken from the Arsenal Units faired just as well against REX's attacks as the Marine RAY body parts did
It's the same model as the unmenned RAY's, but there's no indication that they are ACTUALLY the ones used by the MGS2 RAYs
 

Armorchompy

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Honestly, I think it'd be a good idea if we put this speed discussion to the side, I think we're close enough to a mostly unanimous decision for everything else, with the exception of LS
 
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Yeah, for the time being it's fine, but It's probably the most important change in the CRT, so we'll have to pick it back up once we've settled everything else
 

Armorchompy

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I agree, it definitely needs to be addressed, but it'd be a lot more straightforward if we got everything else outta the way first.

I feel I should mention I'm neutral-against it BTW, and neutral towards the LS
 
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I genuinely think you are being way too scrupulous about the LS, as if I want to get Raiden from class G to class T merely by being "a lot stronger than before", which is not the case at all.
Is the Class G feat a low cap? Yes, unndeniably so. Could MGR Raiden be 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden? Yes, his AP is 769 times higher, it's not at all a stretch to say that his LS increased along with it, maybe not by 769 times, but still around the realm of 300.
I honestly think this is more than enough to qualify for a "at least" rating
 

Armorchompy

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I meant the Snakes LS, I'm straight up against the Raiden LS. 300 times is way too big a gap, even if Raiden's AP growth was a thousand times bigger than it already is I wouldn't agree with it, it's simply too much speculation. Not that I disagree that Raiden's LS is that high up, but VS Battles doesn't work this way
 
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but... that IS how VS Battles works, fuck, Standard Cyborg Body Raiden has an "At Least 8-A" rating just by being "stronger than before", you 2 are simply putting a weirdly high standard to the prefixes, you are treating as if it was a whole tier jump, it's simply an "at least" to indicate that MGR Raiden is much stronger than that. And there is barely any speculation in saying that a character whose AP is 700 times higher than another's would be comparatively stronger in terms of LS.

Overall, the opposition as a whole here is being weirdly strict with some stuff, I've never quite seen anyone nitpick abilities and tiers this much; not an insult, just an observation
 

Armorchompy

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I guess it makes sense, I think "At least" is just very oddly defined overall so I'll withdraw outta this piece of discussion.
 
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I mean, it's not really oddly defined at all. If we know that a character scales massively above a feat we can put "at least", the character doesn't have to possibly be into the following tier or anything of the sort. As I've already said, the wiki defines it as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate": MGR Raiden's exact LS value is indeterminate (we don't have a calc'd feat) and the best feat he had before that is complete fodder to him, hence the "at least". Very simple
 
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I was out for a while now, needed to do a bit of research.

@Chariot190

Comparing them with Mario and Krillin because they are humans is a no go-. Krillin get's superhuman feats because a magic thing named that allows normal humans to fly and blow mountains. Marion gets superhuman feats because his franchise doesn't care about making sense, in the same vein as Bugs Bunny cuts a country for pure comedy.

You should link a lot of those feats to have more context about them, from that throw away Tier 8 calc, the mechas and withstanding being crushed in hundreds of tons. From what you mentioned:

The recoil of a tank is 9-B.

Using the M1 Abrams as example, the power of a tank would be around 9-B+ to 9-A using the main cannon.

Tomahawks cruise missiles generate 2.5 Gigajoules (The profile has a typo) which is like half a ton, 8-C.

Now for LS, the avarage warhead weights 1100 kilograms, Class 5. Which is like 9-C if you were to convert Kg to newtons and newtons to joules (Granted, I'm not the best when it comes to calcs)

Hundreds of kilograms is just Class 1.

If there are more feats, you can link them (Please link them) here, but none of this even remotely reaches the current Stats being used.

Also, going by some gameplays, Big Boss constantly needed to attack weakpoints like their head, it would pretty pointless if he was 8-B as he could literally maul them with his fists alone until only the importants parts were left.
 
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As I said man, Psycho Mantis alone has 3 tier 8 feats and one could very well be tier 7: He burned his home village to the ground as a kid, destroyed a plane (still as a kid) and is the most powerful esp, more powerful than those who can cause natural disasters (earthquakes, hurricanes, storms, tsunamis, that sort of stuff).

Volgin can not only apply a charge of 10 million volts on his enemies (the og 8-B feat) but can also tank said voltage. Volgin can casually punch a hole through the Shagohod, which tanked this explosion without a single scratch on it.

Liquid Ocelot, far from his prime at this point, casually dented Outer Haven, which is a version of Arsenal Gear and as such comparable to the MGS2 Arsenal Gear, which did this without suffering a scratch, the same Outer Haven tanked artillery fire from the USS Missouri without even remotely being phased.

Most of these feats are performed either casually or by characters whose power is lower than their peak
 
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The idea that MG characters are "consistently displayed as barely enhanced humans" is baffling and comes mostly from the trite and old argument of "but bullets hurt them!" as if guns in MG weren't shown to be much more powerful than real life ones and as if it's not common practice for bullets to hurt people who should shrug them off dura-wise (just look at Spiderman ffs, or fucking DANTE FROM DMC, he's fucking Universal+ and still gets penetrated by bullets)
 
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>I think you are very much confusing Extrasensory perception, putting it as both a means AND an end. You are saying that for the soliton's Life Detection to be Extrasensory Perception it would have to be acquired via Extrasensory Perception, which doesn't really make sense. The page for ESP doesn't specify that it has to be via supernatural means, it merely says "the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user". The truth of the matter is that the Soliton can detect life via Matter signatures; the fact that IT does it via means that could be boiled down into Enhanced Senses is irrelevant, the Soliton STILL senses life and STILL does it via matter signatures; seriously, saying that the Soliton's matter-signature-reading doesn't give the Soliton Extrasensory Perception just because it is not OBTAINED via Extrasensory Perception is a complete paradox: matter-signature-reading is a REQUIREMENT for ESP, it's not obtained via ESP.

I'm going it be blunt here. It isn't extrasensory perception. Drop it. The soliton radar can sense life, but it doesn't sense life, it sense biological reactions through the use of electromagnetic waves. The page as a concept only applies to supernatural methods, otherwise it's just enhanced senses or something else. It is quite literally, as a concept, not something that applies. When the page says the ability to detect energy, matter and the like, it's talking about energy in the sense of something like Ki or the soul and matter through the use of supernatural methodology. You're saying that what the Soliton does actually being Enhanced Senses means that it can't be Extrasensory, but no, that's exactly what it means. It isn't Extrasensory, what it does isn't extrasensory, the mechanics behind it isn't extrasensory, as the end of the day it isn't extrasensory. just because it can result in a function similar to something extrasensory perception can do, does not make it extrasensory perception. To list it as such is literally wrong. I'm not compromising on this, saying it's Extrasensory Perception is a blatant lie. And no, it doesn't do via matter signatures, it does via sonar with EMP pulses, that falls under enhanced senses, not extrasensory senses. Honestly, this feels a bit like when you were trying to give Deconstruction to The Boss for disassembling a gun because both Deconstruction and taking it apart are function result in "the gun being reduced to smaller pieces". The Soliton Radar may be able to sense life, but you're ignoring, how, why, the mechanics and everything else to try and treat it as something it, in reality, is not.

>But he isn't "completely scorched and blackened", not at all, he merely has some charring over him, and you clearly see that most of it is already there before the lightning even struck him, and you can also see that he hasn't become any more charred after catching fire, what really does him in are the bullets, hell, he doesn't even scream before those start going off

He kinda is, he's visually extremely darkened, and blackened. Some of it is, but not all of it. We don't give resistance to a heat if said heat proceeds to char skin and the like. Yes, you don't need to link it for me to see, I can check myself and have done so. The bullets obviously hurt him, and may have done him in, but to say the lightning didn't char him is dishonest. Especially when Snake immediately confirms and says, literally not even five seconds later "Heh, Fried by a bolt of lightning". Not to mention the records pf his death and the like attribute said death to being struck by lightning and fried to death. And I should mention, resistance to lightning and electricity may not actually work to begin with, as Volgin explicitly wears a rubber suit.

>But Ocelot expressly talks about doublethink, in order to subconsciously know the truth when the time comes. Hell, there's absolutely no way he didn't notice anything off, the Phantom Cigar itself is a complete giveaway to anyone who knows Big Boss

Yes, subconsciously he may of knew. But, consciously? On the surface? He didn't, Consciously, Ocelot didn't notice anything drastic. The Phantom Cigar only works for people if they know he doesn't actually like it. Big Boss prefers real cigars, but him not liking the phantom one is something that only comes to light after the invention of the thing and it's kinda something Big Boss would need to inform others of. You just don't assume "I bet Big Boss dislikes Phantom Cigars and would refuse to use them", without being told by the man himself. Though it doesn't matter, it was clearly not something Ocelot noticed as being a large enough discrepency.

>But you are tho. The value IS determinate, but it's undeniably a low cap for the characters; the point is that we know that the gap is ridiculous to the point where it might actually be 300x (fuck, the gap in AP between the 2 bodies is more than 700x, MGS4 at 156 tons and MGR at 120.000 tons), saying that it DEFINITELY IS 300x is an assumption, sure, but so is saying that it DEFINITELY ISN'T, what's sure is that the Class G feat scales to a weaker version of a fodder character and that MGR Raiden is almost a thousand times stronger than MGS4 Raiden in AP. What you are saying is that MGR Raiden cannot possibly be more than 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden, which is an assumption contraddicted by the AP gap, which is more than 2 times bigger than the required gap.

The other body is also much faster and thus would have a higher Kinetic Force, AP and strength are linked, but when massive speed increases come into play, the connection gets skewed heavily, especially when Raiden's AP is kinetic, his speed likely plays a huge part in the increase, meaning the AP gap simply doesn't help to suggest an explicit gap of such a high degree. Like it or not, we don't upscale like that, unless given a statement. As I mentioned before Zelda literally just got downgraded because characters upscaled to higher tiers based on being literally thousands of times stronger, in some cases millions and billions. Unfortunately, we don't do this, Raiden's feat is to low into Class G to warrant anything higher, and all the feats done in MGR are also only Class M to Class G, nothing suggests a possibly above Class G. Put simply, they're all still Class G, a much higher degree of it, sure, without a doubt, but still only just Class G, if you think I'm having to high of a standard, so be it, but I'm not keen on putting unwarranted text onto a profile. Raiden in MGS4 is Class G, Raiden in MGR for all intent and purposes, is still Class G, it isn't indeterminate, because we know that he's still simply just Class G, what we don't know is how much exactly, but the tier and gap is far to large to suggest anything other than a simple flat Class G.

>What more difference do you want than being built for completely different reasons and being completely different physically (the unmanned ones don't even have a tail)? The Arsenal RAYs were mass produced quickly to eliminate average human tech, the Marines' were specifically made JUST to kill Metal Gears, how is this not a change that implies a stat difference? They were built to fight completely different targets that aren't even comparable power-wise

What more do I want? An actual statement, proper lore surrounding the subject, evidence that isn't based on conjecture. They were built with different intents, to kill REX and to protect Arsenal, but that's literally the only difference given, and it isn't even said with the notion of them being different in statistics, it's just said to explain why they're there. And them being mass produced means nothing, because the Marine Unit was going to be mass produced to kill REX Units popping up all over the globe. Ie, being mass produced isn't an indication of anything as it was outright said that RAY was going to be mass produced to kill REX's all over. And the RAY's being used to protect Arsenal and thus only designed with the intent of fighting basic human weaponry is an assumption on your part, when every single nation including random backwater ones all have their own personal Metal Gear at this point in time, Metal Gear REX is apart of basic human weaponry that would need to be accounted for against attacks on Arsenal Gear, as everyone has one. But, it honestly doesn't matter, you're simply guessing they have drastically different statistics, but that's it, guessing. It's not said anywhere, it's not even actually implied. And given the RAY Unit was planned to be mass produced for killing REX, it doesn't change much, actually, I'm pretty sure that what happened was that The Patriots simply went ahead with the plan to mass produce that RAY but used it for a different purpose, nothing more, nothing less, they're all still effectively the same Mecha and technology, just repurposed.

>Did you forget about the Radome? RAY could very well just wreck the Radome and kill the person inside without needing to scale to REX' durability. You call RAY's completely different legs "a few adjustments"?

Except we know that's not what it means. And you forget that other REX Units all over the globe wouldn't have a purposefully implemented weakness done by an Otaku who likes video games and anime and thus added a weak point to be tongue and cheek. We are told, outright, that RAY can kill REX, not the user. Everything we are told, numerous times at that, says that RAY can actively kill REX, ignoring one can't kill a machine, it's obvious what it means, RAY can cause enough damage to REX to destroy it. And besides, we outright know it can harm REX because we see them fight and RAY is fully well and capable of inflicting damage upon REX with little issue, the only issue being REX can harm it too. And comparatively, different legs to its body is one adjustment, so it's even less than a few.

>Solid was formally trained by Big Boss, whereas Eli never really had any training in CQC , and didn't show a prowess in it even after being exposed to it multiple times throughout MGS5;

Then we need to remove that ability from the profiles if you want to argue Eli couldn't pick up on CQC.

>all he had was the experience from his White Mamba days and an SAS training, which doesn't even remotely compare to Outer Heaven training. The point of MGS1 isn't that genes aren't everything, it's that you are not bound by your genetics when it comes to what you can do with your life, which is a completely different thing from saying that genes aren't relevant to your combat prowess, because it's shown multiple times throughout the series that yes, the Snakes and Ocelot are just stupidly better than anyone else by default.

Honestly, that's another assumption, we don't know the details of Outer Heaven training, in the vain, every single random soldier at Outer Heaven would be > Liquid in skill (Which then goes ahead and confirms that Venom > MGS1 Liquid and by proxy Genomes as he was evidently the most skilled person at Outer Heaven at the time). What you mean to say is that it doesnt compare to direct training by Big Boss, which is likely true. And, no that's actually exactly what it means. The point of MGS1 is that genes may set the foundation for your life, but they don't decide everything, you arent bound to them, they dont control who and what you entirely, you can break free from your genetic fate if you truly try, etc. Which is exactly what happened. Solid, despite being the generically inferior clone explicitly, still managed to overwhelm and defeat Liquid on multiple occasions despite being at an overwhelming disadvantage in every single one, if genes were the end all deciding factor, Solid would have got his ass kicked by Liquid, the genetically superior clone who had a massive vendetta, but he lost. Snake and Ocelot by default are better then everyone, but that doesn't mean simply having better genes makes you guaranteed above someone else, it's a plot point with Raiden (and he wasn't even the only candidate, others were chosen as possible subjects, Raiden being picked had nothing to do with him being better at fighting but rather his relationship with Solidus and the fact he opts to ignore the past). Though, in regards to the Liquid Vs. Rookie Solid skill, it's moot. Liquid could contend, albeit lose, to an experienced ten year vet Solid, MGS1 Solid>>>>>>>>>MG1. If Liquid is <<MGS1 Solid, he'd be >>MG1 Solid. MGS1 Solid>>Liquid>>MG1 Solid.

>...because it's a huge, immortal fire guy who can teleport and summon fire animals? And Ocelot is never outright "scared", at most he's panicked and tells Venom to get out of there. The point about Ocelot just going there to punch TMOF is honestly ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, it's me being hyperbolic. My point was if TMOF wasn't a threat, Ocelot could have dealt with it himself, why wouldn't he? He knew about TMOF, he knew he was coming, he could have easily been prepared, but he didn't instead he choose to flee, why? Well obviously not because he could single handily beat TMOF without much issue and zero risk of endangerment. But as said, I'll check the game to see what happens if Ocelot is attacked and the like.

>Ocelot only briefly mentions TMOF as one of the reasons for the whole thing to be moved ahead of schedule, he only says "and the man on fire picked this time to wake up too", which doesn't imply him being a significantly pressing threat. But even then, TMOF being a threat to BB is absolutely irrelevant, at best it demonstrates that he's comparable to him, which is something that was already taken for granted.

It's actually one of the biggest reasons, it forced them to move ahead of schedule, if he wasn't a thing, they wouldn't have been in that much of a rush. That was what pushed them over the edge really. TMOF is a threat to Big Boss, it's undeniable. If anything Big Boss is weaker than TMOF as well by virtue of him being Volgin on steroids, who could break Snake's bones while alive. TMOF>Volgin>Both Venom and Big Boss.

>Literally the only possible scaling VS has to 8-B is TMOF, and he's stupidly weaker than him, that's not enough to warrant a full tier imo

We actually don't know if he's stupidly weaker than him, in all direct physical encounters with TMOF, nothing really happens, Venom gets knocked over, and that's usually the extent of it. In regards to the second time, Venom literally let's it happen. And not really, if Venom, under any circumstance takes a hit from TMOF and lives, he's 8-B, given TMOF is over 2x into 8-B. And it would also discredit even the need for a likely, if he tanks a hit, then that's a flat out rating. If we use gameplay, then Venom can tank a hit from TMOF. Thus, Venom scales directly. And using gameplay here by all accounts should be fine, it's a game that has literally hundreds of dialogue and statements in regards to actions that happen in gameplay.

>You are still describing a case in which Snake's body automatically reacts, and which is nowhere near as simple as grabbing a falling cup

It's actually the exact same thing. When you knock a cup over filled with a liquid, you go to grab it thought thinking, automatically. You don't think about it, you just do. It is by definition Instinctive Reaction, but not to the degree it would be an ability listed.

>It's not nearly as hyper specific as you claim it to be. CQC is composed of different, real world martial arts, this would mean that wen approached by anyone of these martial arts (and there's like 20 of them) Snake will instinctively react.

That's literally not what it means, otherwise Snake would be doing CQC in every other day by accident, even though we know for a fact he hadn't used in in 19 years. CQC isn't compromised of different fighting styles, it's based upon on a bunch, but it's not literally just said styles. We are told Snake only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it. It's explained, by he himself, why his body does that and in what circumstance, if the circumstances dont align with that, he wouldn't use CQC automatically. Those other fighting styles aren't CQC even if CQC has some similarities with it, especially when it has to be a pale imitation in order to force Solid to use it.

>Not really, there's also the case of him dodging Sniper Wolf's sniper round without him possibly knowing beforehand

Not concrete enough, that could literally just be him dodging it normally. And in canon, he failed to dodge.

>There's nothing to "take literally", Psycho Mantis literally just said "this is the reason why I cannot read your future, the members FOXHOUND are the same", simple as that. And no, I think that Psycho Mantis simply read his mind, something not even Solid resists, so it's not even a counterfeat. I don't know why you want to take these statements about "losing your future" (which is inherently allegorical as a statement) literally.

You're kinda arguing against yourself here, if we don't take these statements literally then there wouldn't be any resistance in the first place. If you saying Mantis simply read his mind in reference to Liquid, I'm unsure, I'll need to check if it was mind reading or futuresight specifically, if it's the latter, obviously it wouldnt apply. And I'm cautious because the reason why Solid's future couldn't be read is a meta 4th wall breaking reason, which normally, wouldnt matter, but when it's about the abilities of a 4th wall breaking meta character, it becomes a tad different.
>but as I said, the meta reason is irrelevant, we are given a canon, in-universe reason by PM himself, and he also says that the same reason applies to Ocelot and LiquidOr he could be simply comparing Solid to them, not specifically saying they are literally 100% don't have a set future, because they all did, every single FOXHOUND's future couldn't be changed, opposed to Solid who had multiple endings with Meryl. As said, normally this doesnt matter, but it's Mantis, his whole thing is being meta, and he's aware of it himself. As such I'm cautious, but as said, I'm neutral on it, I won't argue it further as it's redundant, if others agree I can get onboard with it and you can count me to it too.

>The first thing to point out is that these are different Speeds for RAY and Ocelot. It's a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it dodged an attack, basically the definition of "combat speed") and a Reactions feat for Ocelot (very minor movement, if any).

And? Whether it's reactions or combat speed, not my point, my point is that it would scale to Ocelot's reactions as well. And it wouldn't be minor, it'd be enough to

>In MGS2 Scott Dolph states that RAY has a JTIDS that allows it to autonomously identify targets and fire at them, from this we know that even the Manned RAY has an extremely significant automatic side to it.

That's literally just a lockon, we have those IRL. And we know fir a fact Ocelot can manually control, and does, the RAY Unit, we literally see him press buttons and shit at times. Also, it being able to lock-on to targets has nothing to do with it's movement which is explicitly manually controlled by Ocelot and given the feat is about it moving, you can see where this lock-on system is not relevant, it's not actually changing anything.

>but looking at the whole context of the feat I posted, you can see here that the dodge happens right after RAY was knocked to the ground. There is no true way of knowing if Ocelot inputted the jump WHILE RAY was on the ground.
What I'm saying is that Ocelot could have very well just "told" RAY to jump while it was on the ground, and the RAY jumped as soon as it could. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it could explain it, ity would be a sort of "aim dodge" situation for Ocelot that wouldn't inder RAY's feat, since RAY still moved that fast.

In order for this to be true and not scale to Ocelot, Ocelot would have had to guess he'd be knocked down the ground, input a jump command ahead of time, get knocked down to the ground, and then jump. That's obviously not how it works or how it happens. To remind you, this feat takes place in gameplay, the same scaling applies to REX's movement, which is explicitly controlled by Snake, along with every single one of RAY's movements, controlled by Ocelot. Hell, Ocelot and Snake can physically move while this feat is happening (it's hard to tell because Snake is mostly obscured), but either way. And it wouldn't be an aimdodge either, because it isn't like things suddenly slow down to a crawl while that feat is going on, the speed REX and RAY move while dodging lasers is literally the same speed they move while dodging and attacking throughout the whole fight, and we know for a fact Ocelot and Snake are manually dodging in response to each other's attacks, not ahead of time.

>The easies solution tho is to take it as both an outlier and a valid feat: an outlier as a Reaction Speed feat for Ocelot (because it's vastly above what Ocelot usually displays) and valid as a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it's RAY's only real speed feat, is goes well with the idea of it being significantly faster than REX).

It isnt though, that's simply being dishonest. If it scales to one, it scales to both. By virtue of it being above what Ocelot usually displays, it's also above what Ray usually displays, because characters like Raiden, Solidus and the like can consistently fight Ray units or react to them. Hell, Solid Snake literally swims fast enough to place a tracker on the MARINE Ray, after it began to take off.

>And with Snake and REX, I'm just gonna say that you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief and, as you said about Psycho Mantis, "dont think to hard about it". Snake clearly had help from Otacon in piloting the thing, to the point where Otacon had control over every internal function of REX. If Otacon had enough control over REX to make it significantly faster and to unlock an entire combat-program, it's not at all a stretch that he helped Snake out in the moving department.

False analogy, we are explicitly told, multiple times, that Solid Snake himself is manually controlling the movement, he's the person dodging, not Otacon, not MKII, we are told this explicitly it is Snake who decides when to dodge and when to stop dodging. This is him, thus, any dodge done by REX is actually done by Solid. It doesn't even matter if it's a stretch or not, because it's simply wrong. Solid did it, not anything else. At this point you're hiding the outlier and making way to many assumptions that are either completely conjecture or outright contradicted by what we're told in game.

>as to the scaling to the unamnned units, again, Ocelot's model is modified significantly and was made to counter REX, including his laser, the unmanned units would at best scale to "possibly"

This has nothing to do with physicals, it's about Solidus straight up blitzing the RAY AI, the thing you're trying to say Ocelot had implemented (which is a complete assumption on your part not stated anywhere)

>Except the unmanned RAY units were being effected by the worm planted by Snake and the crew, so they were nowhere near at thir average "mental capacity" during their confrontation with Solidus, hell, most of them don't even move and just stay there, twitching

Except we actually see what's happening from a RAY's POV at one point, Solidus blitzes them all, they were being effected by the worm cluster, but it doesn't change the fact they were all blitzed by Solidus. And that's ignoring Raiden could fight off multiple RAY's at once for awhile before the worm cluster began taking effect.
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To summarize.
Soliton isn't Extrasensory Perception, it can result in a similar function, but it isn't. Treating its as such is simply wrong.
Volgin's resistance to natural lightning based heat I still disagree on, some resistance to heat is fine for fire, but not lightning, as it was confirmed he was fried by it, and we see added charring to his corpse. Lightning resistance in general is a tad sus even, as his suit is rubber, though, he would still get a resistance anyway even if it's just because of his suit, the reason why it's possible may be different but it's still a thing so that's fine.
I still think Venom is just solidly 8-B, he can tank attacks from TMOF, he's weaker yes, but so is Big Boss. Venom is obviously still below Big Boss and TMOF, but tanking hits from an 8-B is still 8-B, no need for a likely, he's just on the lower end is all.
Instinctive Reaction is hyperspecific, I stand by these, Solid himself explains how and why it's a thing that happened. He can have it, but it'd be highly limited untill I go and look for a better example.
Mantis precog resistance and all that fun stuff I'm neutral on, if enough people agree I have no issue with it being added I suppose, so no need to further that.
The scaling differences between Marine and Arsenal Ray being different doesn't hold up, it's based entirely on assumptions, while a few seem reasonable, the opposite is true, and in my opinion, likely the canon assumption as them being weaker is ever actually said and being mass produced isn't indictive of anything as that was the plan the whole time.
Ray is called a REX killer because he can harm REX, and we see him do it, mobility helps edge REX out, but RAY has the stats to contend with REX as well.
For Rel +.
Regardless, I don't care if we treat them as Rel+ or not. But you're making way to many assumptions to try and say they aren't, if you have to make this many assumptions to come to such a conclusion, chances are that conclusion is faulty, Occam's Razer exists for a reason, trying to create a scaling chain based on conjecture as to why it wouldn't be doesnt work, some assumptions are fine but this amount is ludicrous, and some aren't even true like Solid not being the person who's dodging RAY, as Otacon outright says he is the person doing it and to keep up the good work essentially. And there's even more direct scaling to the mecha's that have yet to be mentioned, it's simply not possible to say that one is that fast but the others aren't, they have comparable speed, at least in reaction and bursts, that scale between.
 
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