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After months, MONTHS in the works, the CRT is finally here.

Some of you may already know what this is going to be, but for those who haven't heard, here's a quick breakdown: The Metal Gear profiles are extremely lackluster, and I decided it was time to take a closer look at the whole verse, adding missing abilities, fixing scaling etc. It's going to be a LONG CRT, so bear with me.

For the sake of semplicity, I am going to devide the CRT in parts:
Part 1 will be dedicated to adding some non-controversial abilities. This will be the easiest part, since these abilities are either outright stated or shown to be present in the verse, so there won't be much to argue about.
Part 2 will be dedicated to controversial abilities, abilities that are either iffy, weird or require some consensus to be added. Both part 1 and 2 will be devided by character, since
Part 3 will cover some corrections to the existing profiles, such as fixing some justifications for abilities or weaknesses and adding weaponry.
Part 4 will be dedicated to 1 new feat that is going to severely impact the verse and needs to be debated.
Part 5 will be dedicated to proposing the creation of 2 new profiles for the verse.
Part 6 will be dedicated to a list of skill-feats i compiled, along with a skill-scaling-chain for most of the major characters in the verse.

Without further ado, let's do this.

PART 1

Big Boss: Minor death manipulation
(via the fake death pill, he can fake his own death), Status Effect Inducement (via equip and CQC, he stuns his opponents), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, healing is a whole mechanic in MGS3, no need to explain this), Accelerated Development (Skill and Statistics; went from being severely less skilled than The Boss to being at least comparable to her in a short timeframe, with The Boss herself confirming that he had gotten both stronger and more skilled since their last fight), Perception Manipulation (via Reflex Mode), Camouflage (Don't think i need to explain this), Sound Manipulation (The Spirit camo makes his steps completely silent and the Sneaking Suit dampens sound all around), Extrasensory Perception (via Sonic Eye and much of his equipment), Non Physical Interaction (can harm The Sorrow's ghosts throughout the bossfight). Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid Snake), Precognition (scaling from Solid Snake, I'll go into further detail about this ability when i talk about Snake's changes), Radiations (just like The Boss, he was an atomic-test subject, and as such, resistant to radiations), Sleep Inducement (resists The End's sleeping darts, which are even more powerful than his own, which are themselves capable of instantly putting people to sleep), Extrasensory Perception (the sneaking suit prevents him from being seen via thermal scanner).


Raiden: Accelerated Development (Skill, he became proficient with the HF Blade after a few minutes of using it, and we know from one of his Codec calls in MGR that he had never used a sword before), Air Manipulation (via Thunder Strike), Pseudo-Invulnerability (artillery fire bounces off his armour), Attack Reflection (can eject projectiles imbedded in his chest, also via Parry). Resistance to: Paralysis Inducement (can break free from Vamp's paralysis), Analytical Prediction (beat Vamp despite him being able to predict his movements by looking at his muscles)

The Boss: Minor Deconstruction (can disassemble any gun nigh-instantaneously without needing to disharm her opponent first), Resistance to: Radiations (she was the first person to be sent in space, because she could resist the cosmic rays without dying), Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), Status Effect Inducement (doesn't get stunned by Naked's CQC)

Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions (dodged Sniper Wolf's surprise-bullet [sniper rounds are super-sonic, he couldn't have been warned by the gunshot], instinctively uses CQC when he's getting attacked, despite him actively trying not to use it), Status Effect Inducement (just like Big Boss, from CQC and much of his equipment such as the Stun Knife), Camouflage (self explanatory), Accelerated Development (Skill, scaling from Big Boss, went from being skill-stomped by Ocelot to being able to contend with him), Superhuman Willpower (Naomi states that Snake shouldn't even be able to stand due to the state of his body, his strength of will keeps him together), Fouth-Wall Awareness (displayed countless times throughout the series, such as when he nods at the player in Twin Snakes, or when he recalls his game-overs in MGS4), Self Sustenance (Type 2, Limited Type 3, Snake's nanomachines replenish adrenaline, nutrition and sugar in his bloodstream. He was also injected with benzedrine, which keep him operational without needing to sleep for at leas 12 hours), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Extrasensory Perception (his Octo-camo masks his thermal reading), Precognition (It's made quite clear through the fight that Psycho Mantis CAN read Snake's mind, he outright does it here, but he couldn't read his future. His explaination for why this happens is that "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment", so from this we gather that Psycho Mantis can't read the future for someone who "lost his future", during her bossfight in MGS3, The Boss states "we're both slowly being eaten away by the karma of others, we'll never have the chance to die peacefully of old age, we have no tomorrow", which sounds ominously like what Psycho Mantis tells Snake, so Naked has this going for him beyond just scaling. Psycho Mantis saying "you are the same as us" also tells us that all the members of FOXHOUND would resist precognition)

Ocelot: Accelerated Development (Skill, became comparable to EG Naked skill-wise, though it's unclear whether this development accured during the Snake Eater Mission or if it began after tthe Virtuous Mission, a week before Snake Eater), Mind and Memory Manipulation (not combat applicable, but he can use it either on himself or others, as seen with Venom), Resistance to: Precognition (justified above).

Volgin: Danmaku (can shoot out many bullets simultaneously all around him), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Naked's tranq gun), Status Effect Inducement (doesn't get stunned by Naked's CQC), High Temperatures (he can tank his own electricity, tanked a lightning at the end of MGS3).

Psycho Mantis: Immortality (Type 6. His ghost can posses inanimate objects, possessed Screaming Mantis after his death), Intangibility (displayed many times throughout MGS5), Resistance to: High Temperatures (can stai right next to The Man on Fire without ripercussions), Precognition (justified above).

Vamp: Immortality (Type 2. He survives fatal injuries even before regenerating them, such as getting stabbed through the heart), Resistance to: Sleep Inducement (resists Raiden's tranq-gun in MGS2).

Venom Snake: Minor Body Control (due to his arm, which he can shoot out and move in unnatural ways), Status Effect Inducement (via CQC and equipment), BFR (via Fulton-portals), Healing (medium and heavy injuries, via various means), Extrasensory Perception (via sonar).

Liquid: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Solid), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss), Precognition (justified above).

Solidus:
Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (scaling from Big Boss), Radiations (scaling from big Boss), Sleep Inducement (scaling from Big Boss)

Gray Fox: Resistance to Empathic Manipulation (will be justified below, but here it is )

All Modern-Nanomachines Users (MGS4-MGR): Resistance to: Empathic and Pain Manipulation (nanomachines can suppress hormones in order to suppress emotions, along with neutralizing pain), Self Sustenance (Type 2, limited 3; should scale above Snake's first-gen nanomachines), Nanotechnology (self explanatory I think).
The characters to get these abilities would be Vamp, Ocelot, and All MGR characters.

All MGR Characters (Cyborgs): Martial Arts Mastery
(self explanatory), Immortality (Type 2. We are told by Raiden that the Gemini, 2 very low-tier cyborgs, survived their encounter with Sundowner, which left both of them cut into pieces, with one of the 2 being decapitated. Dok states that the Winds of Destruction can even survive complete physical destruction as long as the brain stays intact, which allows them to inhabit a spare body), Self Sustenance (Type 1. Cyborgs can operate for short periods of time without breathing, but in case they are unable to breathe for whatever reason, they are equipped with a supply of liquid oxygen in their bloodstream to keep them going. Likely Type 2 and Limited Type 3, their nanomachines should scale vastly above Snake's), At Least Partial Inorganic Physiology (Raiden, along with all of the WODs have a completely cybernetic body, whose only organic part is the brain. Blade Wolf should get fully inorganic physiology due to not having any organic parts).

This is it for Part 1, 5 more to go. Told ya this would be long


PART 2

Big Boss: BFR (with normal Fulton, it takes the opponent about 500 feet into the air, this could be considered a BFR, but it would be reinforced if my second "controversial ability" gets approved), He should get Venom's equipment (he was still in contact with the Mother Base crew, so it's not a stretch to say that he would have had access to their weapons and equipment).

Volgin: Immortality (Type 2. He has a gunshot wound in his forehead during his last fight, he also survived his "death" in MGS3 and got turned into The Man on Fire)

Man on Fire: Regeneration (Mid-High. Upon getting sprayed with water, his body is vaporized. The reason why I put it as "controversial" is that it's not made very clear whether this is regeneration or just him teleporting away, however, we can hear him scream in pain as he gets vaporized, so I don't think it's just him teleporting, especially when this effect never happens again despite him teleporting around a whole lot).

Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)

Vamp: A "Possibly Higher" Key for his Regeneration (Snake implies that anything short of complete physical vaporization won't be enough to surpass Vamp's regeneration. Now, THIS is very iffy, but I decided to still present it just because if it was approved it would be huge. The statement is pretty clear really, it's just a matter of "is it enough to grant Vamp this ability?"

Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation (politicians who know secret codes are given surgical implants that allow them to resist Psycho Mantis' mind-probe. Now, does Armstrong know some secret code? Maybe, he's a senator, he might very well be aware of something that would warrant a mental insulation, we simply don't have a canonical statement about it)

And part 2 is done, 4 more to go


PART 3

Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect: the justification for Extraordinary Genius on the wiki is "At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers", as his profile itself states, Ocelot basically orchestrated most of the MGS plot, an unimmaginably complex plan, with an unbelievable amount of variables, that ended up working exactly as he had planned. He also outsmarted the Shadow Patriots, a group of Super AIs responsible for basically running every aspect of the modern world, along with being at least 2 steps ahead of every world government at any point in time. Along with this, he's also just about as skilled as Big Boss in h2h combat, he's quite possibly the best sharpshooter in the verse if we only consider skill and ignore physiological advantages; he's an expert in hypnosis, psychotherapy, drugs, espionage and interrogation, capable of doublethinking.
This same profile-change can be argued for The Boss. The Boss' leadership, good judgment and will were deemed sharp enough for her consciousness to be taken as model for an AI charged of singlehandedly managing the world's nuke deterrance. Big Boss could be argued aswell, but from what i know, he doesn't really have this kind of feat.
His justification for his enhanced senses is off: The ability is actually allright, it's just that he didn't smell that Tatyana was a spy, he just smelt the gasoline on her clothes

Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off: I have no idea where "he tends to underestimate others" and "he's not academically smart" come from. If anything. both Big Boss and Venom, I'll talk about his weakness section being off later, have a tendency to NOT underestimate others, such as Naked being very much weary of EVA even after she helped him multiple times, or Venom dislocating Eli's arm, someone who was objectively not even close to being a threat to him, just to be sure that he wouldn't mess around anymore. I guess this concept of Big Boss "underestimating people" comes from him underestimating Snake in MG1, but for one, that's not enough to warrant a whole ass weakness, it only happened once and doesn't present itself as a negative trend he has, and 2, it wasn't even him who underestimated Snake, it was Venom, so this weakness makes absolutely no sense. Him not being academically smart just baffles me, most if not all of these scenes are for comic relief, and we have instances of him referencing Descartes, along with his creating and supervising multiple successfull military nations. At most he's not knowledgeable about pop culture, not knowing about any movie, and thinking that Strangelove had actually starred in the Strangelove movie.

Venom: His tier should be "Likely 8-B", not plain 8-B: The justification for his tiering right now is that he "briefly matched volgin and is a convincing doppelganger of Big Boss", there are a few problems here: 1- when did he "briefly match Volgin"? Because if you look at the game, The Man on Fire is mostly presented as an unwinnable bossfight, and he can insta-kill Venom if he gets to him, and they might be referring to this scene, but if that's the case, when did he "breifly match" him? All I see is Volgin pushing him to the ground and Venom getting overpowered, the only reason Volgin got off him is because he had realized that Venom was not Naked Snake. So no, there's no instance of Venom "matching" Volgin. Problem number 2 lies in "is a convincing doppelgange of Big Boss", the problem is that he's not convincing to anyone who's close enough to Big Boss to notice the difference, Ocelot was in on the whole thing and we are told in the Truth Tapes that so was Miller, nobody else in the crew would be close enough to Big Boss to notice the difference; he's convincing to normal soldiers, yes, but normal soldiers don't really know what Big Boss is fully capable of. This is at best a justification for a "Likely" rating, which is what i propose here, since he doesn't plainly scale to anyone we know for a fact is 8-B.
His weaknesses are completely off: He has the same weaknesses as Big Boss, which I've already debunked, but ironically enough, Venom's profile doesn't have ANY of Venom's huge, glaring and unique weaknesses: the Ground Zeroes accident left him filled with metallic shards near his heart and brain, the big shard on his forehead may cause permanent brain damage if moved. He suffered enough brain damage that he forgot how to speak russian and has hallucinations due to the shard pressing on his optic nerve. The current weakness section should be changed to reflect all of these elements, which would be extremely relevant in VS threads btw, since anyone who has metal manip can just instantly kill him by messing with his brain or heart shards.

Quiet: She should also get a "Likely 8-B" rating: Now let's look at Quiet, shall we? Her justification is "Overpowered Big Boss before she even received her Parasite, Revolver Ocelot stated that if Quiet wanted, she could have easily killed him, Venom Snake, and everyone on Mother Base", and i have issues with every one of these arguments: First off: She never overpowered Big Boss, this is the full extent of their battle, and at most, she threw him off her back, which doesn't classify as "overpowering" since it's not even like she broke his grip, she just torque her whole body and threw him away, that's it; Then, since I already went over Venom's "Likely" status, her scaling to him is not enough for a full blown tier. Ocelot's statement also has its problems, since he NEVER specifies that she's going to kill them via AP and not guns or even her hax, this is just too vague to be a justification for a full tier. She should get a "Likely 8-B" tier just like Venom.

Psycho Mantis: He actually can break the 4th wall on PS3: Very simple: Psycho Mantis' profile states that "his ability to break the fourth wall only works on the first generation Playstation's hardware", but this is simply incorrect, he CAN break the 4th wall in MGS4 (he talksa bout memory cards, controllers and hardware, which are all clearly 4th-wall-breaking elements), it's simply that he cannot EFFECT the 4th wall anymore, his weakness section should be updated accordingly.
Genius Level Intellect: The FOXHOUND unit along with the Genome Army is wholly composed of geniuses with IQs over 180, this would obviously include Psycho Mantis. This statement isn't the only supporting evidence for such a tier; he was the one who concucted the entirety of the Shadow Moses plot, which ended up working even after his death and the FOXDIE virus.

Vamp: Missing weakness: Vamp's profile should list the fact that he has a deathwish and seeks someone capable of ending his life for good. This is kind of the whole point of his character in MGS2 and 4, I have no idea how this was not already included

Liquid: His durability justification is completely off: The tiering is completely fine of course, but his justification is "Survived his Hind D crashing, multiple Stinger missiles to REX's cockpit, its subsequent destruction, which knocked out Snake, without issue, and similarly tanked a fall from the top of REX that would've killed Snake, making him more durable"; the part about the Hind D and Stinger missiles is fine (although I have a bone to pick with the concept of Snake's weaponry scaling to REX, but i'll get to that later), but the part about REX' destruction kncking Snake out is simply inaccurate, since we see that he got knocked out due to violently hitting his head, there were no signs of him getting knocked-out before that. The part about the fall is just dumb. We have no proof other than his word that Snake would die to that fall, and if he actually did, it would be complete and utter PIS, it's far more likely that Liquid's statement is simply a way to give the player a reason why Snake can't just jump down and run away. Liquid already has more than enough reasons to have that level of durability, these justifications are both inaccurate and superfluous.

Armstrong: His weakness is off:
I'll cut straight to the chase: "His nanomachines can run out of power" should be removed. The aforementioned Kojima interview is nowhere to be found, it's never mentioned neither in-game nor on the strategy books and the concept of "nanomachines running out of power" was never a thing, since even obsolete Gen 1 nanomachines recharge via body-heat and don't run out of power; one could argue that Armstrong's nanomachines are more active than Snake's, but I could say that Vamp's are even more active (I think anyone would agree with me that regenerating a splattered brain is a much more complex a task than just "hardening"), and they were never even remotely implied to run out of power. This notion goes against every know property nanomachines have, is not present in any canon source and the interview can't be found anywhere, and even if it were, by virtue of contradicting the established canon of the verse, it couldn't be taken as valid.

The MGR Cast: An "At least Class G" Lifting strength instead of plain Class G: Raiden's Class G feat was performed by a fodder body with only one arm, his Patriots and Customized bodies scale massively above that, massively enough to warrant an "At Least" rating.
Their speed scaling is a mess: I'm responsible for this, and I'm sorry, but I don't know what I was thinking while I made those changes. The WODS scale to Raiden's Sub-Rel rating, which comes from Armstrong, who got this tier by blocking an attack from Raiden that is 10 times faster than base Raiden, which means that Base Raiden's current speed scales to an attack which is canonically ten times faster than Raiden by its very nature; this makes absolutely no sense, especially when we consider that Armstrong is supposed to be slower than Raiden and there is no canonical proof of Raiden going Ripper Mode in that fight. I propose that we at least revert their speed to "At least Missevely Hypersonic+" and then add the various keys for BM's multipliers. Now, since this CRT is going to propose a new speed-feat, this "Massively Hypersonic+" could become something else, but that's an argument for a later time.

Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key: Why would this be needed? because MGS4 REX is faster than his MGS1 version, fast enough to match RAY. But RAY is just as fast as MGS1 REX, right? Why would that be needed? Well, I'll talk about that later, but i think you can get a hint from the next change to REX' profile.
Missing Weaponry: Free Electron Laser: Otacon states that REX has a Free Electron Laser mounted on his belly, which is what it uses here, btw. Now, according to this, this laser's speed is 0.9999998c, which i don't know if we can round up to LS or we gotta keep at Relativistic+. The addition of this weapon also influences REX' combat speed, obviously, which would become "Likely Subsonic, Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed with Rail Gun, Relativistic+ (or LS, we'll see) with FEL".

Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY: I realize this is a big thing to say, but hear me out: Otacon outright states that none of Snake's weapons (this would include the Stinger, since he already had the at that point, he had used it to take down the Hind D) can pierce REX' armor. What Otacon proposes is too destroy the Radome, so that Liquid has to open the cockpit, and Snake can bypass the armor. But doesn't this mean that the Stinger can actually damage REX? Not really, Otacon himself admits that he had willingly given REX a weak spot (the Radome) as a way to make it "complete". Pretty lousy excuse, but that's what it is, and it makes sense, because if the Stinger can damage REX, and Liquid can canonically tank Stinger missiles in that same fight, it would mean that Liquid is just as durable as REX, which is stupid. So no, the Stinger doesn't scale to 8-A, and MGS1 Snake's weaponry doesn't quite reach that level of power. What about Raiden though? After all, he outright destroys several RAY units, right? Yeah, that's true, and my issue is not with the way in which he takes them down, my issue is that the RAY units Raiden fought don't really have a reason to be 8-A. The justification on the profile is that it's "Designed to destroy REX units and is comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden", let's analyze this piece by piece. "Designed to destroy REX units"; this is true, but there's a huge but: this is only true of the original Marines model, which was stolen by Ocelot and later used in MGS4, the RAY units Raiden fought were yes based on the Marine's concept, but it was redesigned to guard Arsenal Gear, instead of fighting other Metal Gears; this means that they were redesigned with the idea of fighting normal human tech such as tanks, jets etc, the Patriots had no reason to optimize RAY against other Metal Gears, since there were no other operationa Metal Gears around during MGS2. TL;DR: There's no way to be certain that the version of RAY Raiden fought scales to REX. The problem with "comparable, if not superior to MGS4 Raiden" is quite evident: this is MGS2, MGS4 Raiden wasn't even a thing at that time. Add to all of this the fact that the Patriots had organized the whole thing so that Raiden would win, and you can easily see how it's not really possible to have those RAYs scale to REX.
So to sum this argument up: Snake only damaged REX via a weak spot, and the RAY units Raiden took down don't scale to 8-A.

Metal Gear RAY: New Keys:
In light of the aforementioned changes, it's quite clear that some changes have to be made to RAY's keys. My proposal is that we remove the MGS2 key and only leave the MGS4 and MGR ones, with a note down below that specifies how the models that Raiden fought in MGS2 can't be properly tiered and that the unit that was stated to be made as an anti-REX weapon was the one used in MGS4.

This should be it for part 3, now let's get to the really saucy part.


PART 4

Metal Gear RAY dodges REX' Free Electron Laser:
The feat doesn't happen in a cutscene, but in gameplay, you can see it happen right here. If we go frame-by-frame, which I did, we see that RAY only starts to move AFTER the beam is fired. I got this feat calc'd, but it still needs to be evaluated, here is the calc, and the result is 0,72c, Relativistic+.
Honestly, it kinda makes sense that RAY, which is designed to outmaneuver REX, would be able to dodge REX' most advanced and lethal weapon.
Now, I don't think this is considerable an outlier, for one, this is the ONLY speed feat we have for RAY, and we know for a fact that it's a speed-based Metal Gear, far faster than REX (that is, before Otacon came up with some bullshit mumbo jumbo to make REX faster, but tbh, this in itself is proof that REX wouldn't stand a change speed-wise without a significant boost). Secondly, it's worth noting that this feat doesn't hinder the scaling in any way, since only MGR characters (who are consistently shown to be bafflingly faster than anything else in the verse already, hell, even fodder cyborgs such as Gray Fox can completely FTE the fastest humans and be basically invisible to them. I'm not saying that Gray Fox scales to this feat, obviously, I'm just pointing out the fact that even fodder Cyborgs can run circles around the "Massively Hypersonic"s of the verse) and MGS4 REX scale to it, so the jump from Massively Hypersonic to Relativistic makes sense, especially when Raiden's speed rating comes from a feat he performed extremely casually, and even by taking that casual feat, he would be able to reac Sub-Relativistic speeds with Blade Mode (via its canon multipliers). Raiden's (and all of the MGR Cast's really) speed tier doesn't fully reflect what they are actually capable of, this feat would give us a tier to which Patriots Raiden scales equally, not casually.

If this feat is approved, it will scale to MGS4 and MGR RAY (MGR RAY is outright stated to be a superior model to the MGS4 one), MGS4 REX, Raiden in his Patriots and Custom Body (Patriots Body can fight RAY, Custom Body can fight Sam), Blade Wolf (scales to Raiden), Jetstream Sam (scales massively above the Patriots Body and fought RAY) , Sundowner (scales to Raiden), Mistral (scales to Raiden), Monsoon (scales to Raiden), Armstrong (scales to Raiden) and EXCELSUS (somewhat scales to Raiden).

This is it for part 4, i originally wanted to include another "feat", but then i realized that it involved way too much speculation involved and removed it.


PART 5

Peace Walker:

Abilities: Large size (type 0, it's 25 meters tall in his bipedal mode and around 16 meters when in its quadrupedal mode), Inorganic Physiology, Genius Intelligence (has an expert AI based on The Boss), Fire Manipulation (has a flamethrower), Explosion Manipulation (via missiles, rockets and mines), Electromagnetism Manipulation (it has a EM pulse field), Acrobatics (can jump very high), Sound Manipulation (can let out high pitched screams capable of stunning its opponents), Paralysis Inducement (has a paralysing beam), Self Destruction (Has a self-destruct function).
AP: At Least 8-B physically (can harm Big Boss with its leg-swipes), At Least Low 7-B with Intercontinental Missiles (Peace Walker's missiles have one-Megaton warheads, Missiles usually have more than 1 warhead on them, up to 14, hence the "at least" rating), At Least 7-B with Self-Destruction, likely far higher (Peace Walker has a Self-Destruct function with a massive Hydrogen Bomb that's more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, Real Life Hydrogen Bombs could pack anywhere from 100 Megatons all the way up to several Gigatons, hence the "likely far higher", especially since PW's Hydrogen Bomb is noted to be "massive").
Speed: Peak Human Travel Speed (Can reach 25 mph in running speed) With High Hypersonic+ Combat speed and Massively Hypersonic Reactions (Scaling from Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Class 1 (Can support its own weight, which is 500 short tons).
Striking Strength: At Least City Block class (Can harm Big Boss)
Durability: At Least 8-B (Completely impervious to anything but Big Boss' best weaponry), Possibly 7-B for its Inner Barrier (Huey was extremely unsure whether a nuke could breach the inner barrier or not, stating that it was designed to be "as strong as a bomb shelter" and to "withstand a nuclear war", since MG is a more scientifically advanced setting, it would be fair to assume that nukes in MG woud be equivalent to our high-tier nukes).
Stamina: Unknown, possibly Infinite (It's completely mechanical and doesn't seem to need any fuel to operate).
Range: Tens of meters with melee attacks, hundreds of meters with rockets and weaponry, at least tens of kilometers with Hydrogen Bomb, hundreds of kilometers with Intercontinental missiles.
Standard Equipment: Missiles, S-mines, Flamethrower, EM pulse-field, Paralysis beam, Intercontinental Missiles, Hydrogen Bomb
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius (PW is an Expert AI based on The Boss).
Weaknesses: Can only launch a nuclear missile or attack as self defense, shutting down the Mammal Pod will greatly hinder its thought pattern and combat capabilities



The Sorrow:

Abilities: Intangibility (Immaterial; he is a ghost), Invisibility (only visible by those he wishes to be seen by), Self Sustenance (1,2 and 3 due to being a ghost), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 7 and 6 scaling from Psycho Mantis), Death and Life Manipulation (Kills upon making contact with his corpse, brough Naked Snake back to life),BFR (Can take people into the "other side", the world of the dead), Summoning (He summons the ghosts of those killed by the target, but he can also summon his own ghosts), Power Absorption (Can channel the spirits of the dead and utilize their skills), Minor Reality Warping (Can crack and repair his glasses, as well as crying blood from his left eye and materializing flying clocks), True Flight (he flies around), Teleportation (He regularly appears from thin air), Weather Manipulation (It rains whenever he appears), Energy Projection (displayed here), Possession (Scaling from Psycho Mantis), 4th Wall Breaking (Displayed continuously throughout MGS3, such as him remarking "back again?" after the player dies and loads the game), Soul Manipulation (Vanquished Psycho Mantis' soul), Precognition (foretold Big Boss' fate of being killed by his son, scaling to Psucho Mantis).
AP: Likely 8-B (can harm Big Boss with his Energy Projection), bypasses durability with many of his abilities.
Speed: Likely Supersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reactions (likely scales to Big Boss).
Lifting Strength: Unknown.
Striking Strength: Unknown.
Durability: Unknown (Intangibility makes him hard to hit).
Stamina: Likely Infinite (His stamina bar is completely empty, just like his health bar).
Range: Extended melee range with Energy Projection.
Standard Equipment: His own corpse.
Intelligence: Genius
(As a member of the Cobra Unit in life, he was an incredibly skilled soldier, capable of predicting the course of any battle by talking to the dead beforehand), in death, he seems to have acquired a sort of Omniscience, showing knowledge on things he would have no true way of knowing, such as perfectly knowing (down to the tens of seconds) the time it would take the C3 to detonate, or knowing the combination to Snake's cell-door before Snake had even been assigned to said cell.
Weaknesses: Consumed by sorrow, doesn't usually interfere with the material world.

Why should these profiles be added? Well, peace Walker has a whole game named after it, The Sorrow is just a very powerful and unique character that would bring a lot of value to the verse.

Now on to the last part (finally, jesus christ this took me a week to write down), unfortunately, the last one migh just be the longest.


PART 6

Skill Feats

- Naked Snake fodderized the Ocelot Unit along with Ocelot himself, the Ocelot unit being an elite group composed of the very best among the Spetznaz rank, with EVA stating that their skills with weapons is the stuff of legends and Ocelot of course being superior to them. This same Naked Snake would then go on to get absolutely stomped by The Boss
- Liquid Snake joined the SAS as an 18 year-old, the youngest in history, and excelled in everything
- Even as a 12 year-old, Liquid managed to organize a group of child soldiers into a fierce army capable of taking over settlements. Eli could even outmaneuver and overpower fully grown Diamond Dogs soldiers without any formal training, requiring the intervention of Ocelot in order to stop him.
- According to the official MGS' website's "Versus Battle" (which are now basically impossible to find, but are all listed in the MGS wiki) The Cobra Unit could have singlehandedly won WW2, their missions being so top secret that not even their corpse could be left
- The Boss is usually referred to as "The Mother of Special Forces", this is due to the fact that she either directly or indirectly laid the foundation for every form of special unit in the world, with Zero outright stating that she was the one who put together Rayforce and L Detachment, which laid the groundwork for today's SAS
- Volgin was a boxing champion as a young adult, despite this, he gets completely skill-stomped by Naked and he's terrified of The Boss' combat prowess

- The End invented sniping as a whole and all of its techniques, passing his knowledge onto The Boss. Naked Snake managed to outsnipe him while having a physiological (due to The End's parasite, he was naturally gifted as a sniper) and locational (The End could speak to the forest itself, Snake had never sniped in a forest before) disadvantage
- Venom Snake is merely the best MSF soldier, nothing implies that he's as skilled as Big Boss, as he was only hypnotized into thinking he had done what Big Boss had done. We know from Naomi that genes are the most important factor to a soldier's skill and Venom was only a normal human, as such automatically less skilled than those with Big Boss' genes. This is demonstrated by Eli being capable of outskilling and overpowering fully grown soldiers despite having no training and a rookie Solid Snake being able to beat Venom himself
- Venom Snake outsniped Quiet despite her having a physiological advantage over him and an advantage position
- Raiden had a record-breaking killcount at age 10, he became the leader of a personal unit at that same age. His effectiveness and ruthlessness got him the nickname "Ripper"
- Sundowner invented his own fighting style and is experienced in Chinese swordfighting
- CQC is composed of many martial arts, like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Kali, this video goes into detail into every martial art that CQC is shown to contain; on top of them, CQC would also include all of the martial arts used in the army and special forces, as most of them were created by The Boss, the co-creator of CQC.

Scaling Chain

Venom Snake<Rookie Solid<=Genome Soldiers<Solidus<Raiden<Liquid=FOXHOUND<=MGS1,2,Solid<MGS4 Solid<<MGS4 Ocelot=End of MGS3 Ocelot<=End of MGS4 Solid <The Boss<Big Boss

There are some points that are worth explaining here. First off, why did i put Venom at the bottom? Well, the first thing we gotta set is that Venom is not equal to Big Boss in terms of skills, nowhere is this stated in MGS5, Venom was merely the best MSF soldier and he was only hypnotized into thinking he had the same experiences as Big Boss, I don't think I need to tell you how being hypnotized into thinking you experienced something is not comparable to actually experiencing it. There's also the matter of the "soldier genes", which automatically make the "user" exponentially more skilled than anyone else, as displayed with Eli and a Rookie Solid Snake, who actually beat Venom Snake.
Why don't i automatically put Snake above Big Boss? After all, Snake beat him in MG2, right? Yeah, kinda, but let's keep in mind that in MG2 Snake fought a very old and washed Big Boss. The idea of MG2 Solid Snake being better than Big Boss is also pretty much completely debunked by what happens in MGS4.
Why the Genome Soldiers above rookie Snake? To be honest, they aren't really listed as "above" him, merely "possibly slightly better", mainly due to the Genome Soldiers having more training than Snake along with the Soldier Gene.
MGS4 Solid is listed as above MGS1,2 Solid because of the fact that in MGS1 and 2 he was willingly "nerfing" himself by not using CQC, which is a HUGE part of his combat arsenal, so despite being physically weaker, MGS4 Snake is significantly more skilled than his MGS1 and 2 self.
Ocelot skill-stomped Snake into the ground, and no, it wasn't due to Snake being weaker or anything of the sorts, because Ocelot had the same physical age as Snake, Snake had the muscle suit to boost his attributes and Ocelot straight up states "But when it comes to CQC, I've got the upper hand", so no, AP had nothing to do with it.
Why do I list MGS4 Ocelot as equal to EOMGS3 Ocelot? Well, it's because neither would really be "peak" Ocelot: In MGS4 Ocelot hadn't fought h2h in at least 20 years, so saying he was rusty is an understatement, whereas in MGS3 Ocelot had just learnt CQC, which means that he wouldn't logically be as good as his, let's say, MGS5 self. So yeah, I think it's reasonable to say that MGS4 Ocelot would be AT BEST equal to MGS3 Ocelot if not weaker; yeah, it's a speculation on my part, but an oculated one, I think.
Why do I put EOMGS4 Snake below The Boss and Big Boss? Due to Big Boss' substantially better performance against Ocelot. As I've said, I consider MGS3 and MGS4 Ocelot to be equal skill-wise, which, conveniently, is quite handy when it comes to comparing Snake and Big Boss. Snake Barely beat Ocelot, with their fight ending in a slug-fest and mainly due to Ocelot being effected by FOXDIE; while yes, this shows that Snake has become superior to Ocelot, it demonstrates that the gap isn't that big, they are more comparable than anything else. Big Boss on the other hand cleanly beat Ocelot, and he wasn't even fighting seriously, while yes, Ocelot does kinda hold his own, it's mostly due to Big Boss beng surprised by his usage of CQC, and even then, it's quite clear that Snake had the upper hand.
The Boss is above MGS4 Snake due to scaling to a serious Big Boss, making her scale significantly above MGS3 Ocelot and so on and so forth.
There are a few things I'd like to point out about some of the characters I left out: The Cobras would be above FOXHOUD IMO due to better statements and feats overall, whereas the WODs are a bit more tricky, since they are blade focussed and not h2h like every other quantifiable MG character, but I'll try nontheless. The starting point in regards to swordsmanship in MG is Solidus. We don't know much about his skills, what we know is that he was in the CIA, that he's the perfect clone of Big Boss and that he's very fond of blades; this is enough to place him around the level of the best swordsmen in the world, due to the Soldier Gene. MGS2 Raiden beat him quite cleanly. Now, MGS4 Raiden scales way, WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY above MGS2 Raiden in terms of swordsmanship, which is not only pretty evident from his fight scenes, but also by the fact that he had traveled all around the world to hone his skills. Patriots Body Raiden would be at least equal to that, if not superior. Sam absolutely fodderized him, and the WODs would be less skilled than Sam, but still comparable to him, which means that the WODs in general scale massively above Patriots Body Raiden. MGR Raiden then scales to Sam, and this closes the skill chain.


Solidus<MGS2 Raiden<MGS4 Raiden<=Patriots Raiden<<WODs<Sam<=MGR Raiden

Now, this scaling chain is not a gospel, there could be something wrong, and make your proposals if you want to.


Finally done.
I don't even know if anyone will be willing to read through ALL of this, but still, hope someone does.


In case you have any doubts or you don't agree with something, we can debate this.
 
It's quite straight forward really, in MG, "losing" your future, be it via suffering great trauma or losing everything you love, makes you resistant to having your future read
 
To be fair, I've been working on this since before the Forum move had even begun.
What about the controversial abilities? Anything to say about those?
 
Lots of this look good but, status effect inducement via CQC isn't a thing, he's just knocking them out cold, literally every profile on the wiki bar a few would have that if simply hitting someone hard to knock them out qualifies, it doesn't though. Maybe via his electrical stun weapons though could work.

Extrasensory Perception via some of his equipment doesn't work, because that's not what it is. Though, they'd still be abilities, just that it would fall under a subcategory of Enhanced Senses, not Extrasensory Perception. Though Big Boss can see the sorrow and the like anyway, so extrasensory perception for him and Solid (could see Mantis' ghost) works anyway, just for a different reason.

Resistance to extrasensory perception via thermal isn't a thing, it'd be resistance to, well, thermal vision, which is under enhanced senses, so it'd be resistance to that instead.

The rest for Big Boss is fine, though technically all are, just gotta tweak the reasons a bit as mentioned.
---------------------
Change resistance to paralysis to minor resistance and remove invulnerability and it's good to go. (Invulnerability isn't given for durability anymore, even if it's drastic, you need an actual ability or something like Veemon to qualify).
-----------
For the Boss minor deconstruction doesn't qualify, she's not using deconstruction in the way the wiki uses it as an ability, which is basically a subset of matter manipulation.
------------------
Solid Snake: Instinctive Reactions
This one is iffy, neutral on it, I'll think on it.

Status Effect Inducement
For CQC, nah, but for his stun knife? It'd work, so it can be listed on the profile, just not via CQC.

Extrasensory Perception
as said above, that falls under enhanced senses, so it'd be a resistance, just not to that category.
Precognition
That's actually a meta 4th wall break as to why he couldn't, but, it works, so yeah, Solid and Big Boss would resist psychokinetic precognitive abilities.

The rest is fine.
------------------------------
Ocelot is all fine.
-------------
Volgin is mostly fine, though said lightning bolt kinda fried his ass and Mantis had to reanimate him. He is fine being near his own lightning most of the time so I guess?
---------------------------------
Mantis is fine, i'd say his possession would be limited though, but in MGS5 he does it like a dozen times on the fly so it's all good.
-----------------------
Vamp is good.
-----
For Venom, as usual, CQC aint status effect inducement, but he has a bunch of other shit that qualifies so it'd still be listed. Extrasensory Perception via sonars aint a thing, it'd be enhanced senses and in a few cases, Sound/Air manip due to how some sonars function. Rest is fine though.
--------------
For nanomachines, yeah that's all fine, though it'd be strictly biological empath and pain manip, it's still resistance though so all that is good to add.
----------
For Cyborgs, that's all fine.
----------------
Big Boss 2, BFR is fine, though it obviously should be explained in detail. And yeah, he obviously has all of Venom's equipment, maybe not on hand at all times, but he has access to all of it.
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Volgin 2, The Man on Fire was due to Psycho Mantis being a thing, not by his own power, but, the gunshot wound to the head is probably good enough.
--------
Indifferent to regen, kinda vague, but it may or may not be wrong, not enough to go on.
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Psycho Mantis: Biological Manipulation: (Psycho Mantis seems to remove the Vocal Cord Parasite from inside Eli's lungs, Vocal Cord Parasites are impossible to surgically remove from the host, since they flawlessly mimick the host's membranes. This is a fairly clear cut feat, but i put it as "controversial" because it's from the "Kingdom of Flies" chapter, which is technically not in the finished version of MGS5; it's also not 100% clear that what Psycho Mantis removed was the Vocal Cord Parasite, since it's not textured)

Yeah, he did remove it, that's something he absolutely canonically did. My only issue lies in it being biomanip, could be something else, hard to say given, as said, the cutscene itself was not finished, we know generally what happened though, I think likely biomanip works though.
----------------
Vamp
Possibly higher regen works, even if it aint complete vaporization, it's clear that we never seen his upper limit.
-------------------
Armstrong: Resistance to: Mind Manipulation
I think a likely/possibly resistance works better. He likely does, but it aint confirmed, so just say it as it is, a likely resistance.
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Ocelot: Extraordinary Genius Intellect.
Maybe? He's definitely above genius level, but I don't quite think he's extraordinary. He's like in some weird ass middle ground, though his planning and all that fun stuff definitely hits extraordinary, it's not even ******* funny, Ocelot is one of the most galaxy brained ************* I've ever seen when it comes to planning and trickery and convoluted shit.

For the Boss and Big Boss, I'm unsure if extraordinary works, yeah she was used as a base for Peace Walker, but that was for a highly specific reason, her judgmental skills and empathy to make the right choice. Though this absolutely needs a mention on the profile regardless.

Yeah, him having enhanced senses is fine, just needs a justification tweak.
---------------

Big Boss: His weakness sections is completely off:
This all is true. I agree completely.
--------------

Venom: His tier should be "Likely 8-B", not plain 8-B:
I suppose this fine, though it shoudl be mentioned that while Ocelot was in on the whole thing, for awhile he made himself believe Venom was Big Boss through hypnotherapy, and Miller didn't know till way later, which kinda pissed him right the **** off. Though, there's still him fighting Sahelantropus and TMOF, don't know how exactly you'd scale that. But Likely is a good compromise so I'm fine with it.

As for his weaknesses, yeah, agree entirely with that. I mean it's bad to the point he accidentally shot Eli in the ******* chest because of he mixed up his colors. And the debunk reasoning is good too, especially when he's shown to almost always take foes seriously.

-----------
Quiet: She should also get a "Likely 8-B" rating:
I agree with most points, though she probably still works as a 8-B due to the parasite amping, though I'm fine with that either way.
---------------

Psycho Mantis:
Yeah Psycho Mantis can break the 4th wall in MGS4, hell, depending on the controller you have, he can even vibrate it still (though he gets pissed if you have a controller that lacks it, which is still a 4th wall break).
Also genius also works fine, he has enough feats on that tier to confirm a rating.
---------
Vamp: Missing weakness:
That's fine.
-----------
Liquid: His durability justification is completely off:
Agree, this is fine.
--------------

Armstrong: His weakness is off:
If a source can't be found then this is fine.
------------

The MGR Cast: An "At least Class G" Lifting strength instead of plain Class G:
I'm not so sure, Raiden's feat was around 3 billion tons, which obviously he did while weak and with one arm, but At least would imply there's a possibility for them to be higher than Class G, which is where the issue lies, the next Class up is over 300x Raiden's feat, yeah he was weak but I don't think the gap between him and the higher end MGR entities is 300x in lifting strength. I'm pretty sure they're all just really high Class G. Though I'm open to discussion on this point, clarification on the profile on how much they upscale could be added though.
------------

Their speed scaling is a mess: etc
That is Fine.
------------------

Metal Gear REX: A separate MGS4 Key:
I mean, that doesn't make much sense, yeah Rex matched Ray, but MS1 Rex is literally just MGS4 Rex but not a beaten torn apart pile of shit. Anything MGS4 Rex can do should apply to MGS1 so idk about that. Yeah Rel+-SoL attack speed is fine.
-----------
Solid Snake and Raiden: Their weaponry shouldn't scale to neither REX nor RAY.
I agree with most of this, other than that the Arsenal Gears Ray units don't scale to the Marine Ray. While they had different purposes, there exists virtually no difference from what I can tell in functionality. At the very least, Likely 8-A for the Ray units at arsenal would be better then straight up saying nah they dont even hold a candle to Ocelot's.
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Metal Gear RAY: New Keys:


I agree on the front that three keys like that could be redundant, but I still think the Arsenal Units should at the very least be comparable.
------------
Metal Gear RAY dodges REX' Free Electron Laser:
Idk, the laser being that fast is definitely legit, it's just that, well, Ocelot's Ray and REX were piloted by Ocelot and Liquid, manually. Everything those mecha did apply to their reactions to an extent. If REX began moving after the laser was fired, that's only because Liquid began moving him after it was fired, or Solid or Ocelot in the case of 4 and Ray. And then we have Snake and Liquid actively fighting the mecha together , manually, and then there's Gray Fox, if he does scale, even if slightly, it'd apply to Snake anyway, who can CQC his ass and beat him in a fist fight. So like, take of that as you will, if we scale that feat to the mecha, it ultimately scales to the top tiers like Solid as well.
Scaling to the MGR cast is obviously fine, if we actually use the feat. If used, it scales to more than just them so like, unless you wanna argue an upgrade like that for characters like Solid/Liquid/Solidus/Raiden/Ocelot/Big Boss/The Boss as well then eh. Though, I'm not entirely against that if there's no blatant contradictions and if this happens enough times.
----------------
Most of Peace Walker is fine but, Acrobatics wouldnt qualify, it can jump high but for acrobatics you gotta be doing some fancy shit as well with great mobility and maneuverability. For lifting strength, Class 1 is absolutely a ludicrous lowend. it's a 25m tall giant mecha, 1 ton lifting strength is nothing to it, by virtue of size it should be at least Class 10, likely drastically higher given even normal ass commercial vehicles can tow around shit like that. Class 50+ as a low end is likely reasonable to if you cross scale with earlier models like the Shago being able to move tanks. Range would actually be thousands of kilometers at minimum, likely lowend Planetary, given Peace Walker was said to be able to launch a retaliation strike against any place on the planet. Rest is good.
--------------------
The Sorrow looks mostly good but, he'd be Non-Corporal as well, given he's well, a ghost. Anything scaling off Mantis should be listed as likely instead of flat out. The rest is fine, but in regards to knowing exactly when the bomb will explode, that could be chalked up to his precog, though it wouldn't change anything given he's still genius and has supernatural clairvoyant abilities.
---------------
Skill Feats

>Venom Snake is merely the best MSF soldier
, nothing implies that he's as skilled as Big Boss, as he was only hypnotized into thinking he had done what Big Boss had done. We know from Naomi that genes are the most important factor to a soldier's skill and Venom was only a normal human, as such automatically less skilled than those with Big Boss' genes. This is demonstrated by Eli being capable of outskilling and overpowering fully grown soldiers despite having no training and a rookie Solid Snake being able to beat Venom himself

This is all true, he's probably not as skilled as Big Boss, but him being hypnotized to have his experiences probably helped a lot. And being beaten by a rookie Solid isn't a huge detriment, give this Rookie Solid could also fight Frank, who in turn could fight Big Boss. I mean, not as skilled as Big Boss? Sure, but there's a huge amount of credit to be given to hm.

>CQC is composed of many martial arts,

Should also make a mention of how CQC is a hard counter to almost any fighting style imaginable, if it isn't already mentioned on the profile.

The rest of the skill things are obviously true and I have nothing to add onto it.
----------
For the scaling chain, I disagree with Venom being that low, given Rookie Solid is ******* insane in his own right with his match with Gray Fox, at the very least, put Venom above the genome soldiers, the rest I'm fine with. There also comes into the play the offscreen feats of Venom, it's hard to say where Venom and Big Boss' feats begin and end post MGS5, a lot of the things attributed to Big Boss can now be given to Venom. Even things like training a rookie Solid, off and on, or recruiting Foxhound like Sniper Wolf, we simply don't know who actually did what, we know a few things on who did what exactly, but overall it's hard to gauge.

Genome Soldiers<=Venom Snake<Rookie Solid<Solidus<Raiden<Liquid=FOXHOUND<=MGS1,2,Solid<MGS4 Solid<<MGS4 Ocelot=End of MGS3 Ocelot<=End of MGS4 Solid <The Boss<Big Boss

> whereas in MGS3 Ocelot had just learnt CQC,

That should actually be mentioned on his profile, possibly minor mimicry or mentioned in his accelerated development, he literally learned a super advanced fighting style just by seeing Big Boss and The Boss do it a few times.

Everything else is fine.

Though because it's the end now, anyone who gains resistance to status effect via CQC from Big Boss ain't viable, they can gain it from other things like resisting his stun weapons, but not from CQC, given all it is is knocking someone on their ass, which we dont give the ability for.
--------------------------
I'm fine with like 90% of this, just a few minor wording tweaking on most and the few things that I do have issue with I'm sure we can agree on like Peace Walker's range with ICBM's and the rest I'm open to discussion on.
 
Last edited:
Just to start: Some of the characters have some of the abilities in OP (just for different reasons, like MGR characters having resistance to empathic manipulation), so we will have to add it all to each profile carefully and just provide the further justifications from the OP if the ability is there already

Part 1:


Yeah I agree with almost everything, though Volgin's resistance wouldn't be to "High Temperatures", but rather "Electricity Manipulation" itself. Also Raiden wouldn't really have Pseudo-Invulnerability, it's a durability thing, he can easily shrug off bullets because he's so tough.


Part 2:


Volgin/Man on Fire
: I'm not very sure. Seems like teleportation but also looks like he can regen. I also suggest Inorganic Physiology, for obvious reasons, he's literally fire.

Vamp: High-Mid for Vamp seems good, but I'm neutral on this.

Rest is good for me.


Part 3:


Ocelot
: I wholeheartedly support Ocelot having Extraordinary Genius intellect

Big Boss: Agree

Venom: Agree, Venom is definitely weaker than BB and rest after further research, but he still should be in this tiering

Quiet: Like above

Psycho Mantis: Agree

Vamp
: Agree

LIQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID: Agree

Armstrong: Absolutely agree, where does that weakness come from anyway lmao

The MGR Cast: I agree, they are definitely far higher than performed feat, but wouldn't grant them Class T. Still they are definitely much stronger than that.

MG Rex: Agree, though I'm not a calc guy so can't judge the laser feat.

Solid Snake and Raiden: Neutral on this, but mostly agree with not scaling


Part 4:


Not for me to judge as stated above


Part 5:


Yeah the profiles are good for my eye, just gotta make them. Peace Walker doesn't have Class 1 lifting strength though. 500 tons is Class 50/Class 100 IIRC.


Part 6:


We discussed this already but I'll think about this and give my thoughts later.
 
>500 tons is Class 50/Class 100 IIRC.

It's actually exactly Class K+.

>though Volgin's resistance wouldn't be to "High Temperatures", but rather "Electricity Manipulation" itself. Volgin/Man on Fire: I also suggest Inorganic Physiology, for obvious reasons, he's literally fire.

Put me down on those too actually, the former seems to be a better alternative and the latter is kinda true, he's actually part corpse/part literal fire so a limited inorganic physiology would work.
 
But is it really. I'm not against status effect inducement for them, but in 90% of the cases with CQC, I don't think Big Boss smashing a dude's head off a wall or pimp slapping a dude so hard he gets put into a coma qualifies, that's just knocking a dude out cold.
If Solid, Venom, Big Boss, etc can induce stunning via pressure points then that's cool, that can be added as reasoning. They would get this ability anyway via things like stun knives and the stun arm and all the fun gadgets that they have, I'm just against Big Boss pimping a dude being used as a justification.
 
Yeah that's right. I think Pressure Points for any skilled CQC user is fine. In MGS3 it's stated several times that CQC utilizes mainly judo and jiu-jitsu, which is mainly based on pressure points, aside grappling and throwing.
 
I mean as long as we ain't giving Staus effect for knocking a dude on his ass with a strong fist to the face I'm fine with it.
 
Extrasensory perception would actually work for stuff like Venom's sonar, since it's straight up not enhanced senses, it's something completely external, same goes for stuff like the Sonic Eye and the Soliton, those are not enhanced senses, it's literally stuff that he couldn't have gotten with his senses.

Big Boss getting EP because he could see The Sorrow is iffy, The Sorrow could have very well just chosen to appear to him.

Fine with the thermal stuff, if it falls under enhanced senses it should be categorized as resistance to enhanced senses

Why should it be tweaked to "minor" resistance tho? He broke out of a paralysis, it's plain resistance. And I mean, Invulnerability is listed as "the power to be immune to conventional harm", it's not a Dura thing because humans in MG should also be able to tank bullets no problem but can't, so bullets bouncing off Raiden would fall under Invulnerability if we take that into account (also, that's why I put it as "pseudo" invulnerability)

The wiki defines deconstruction as "the ability to break something down into smaller parts", not specifying that this has to be done via matter manipulation, The Boss almost instantly disassembling guns would fall at least under "minor" deconstruction.

Same thing for Solid, Soliton is straight up extrasensory perception.

The 4th-wall-break thing is the GAMEPLAY reason as to why Psycho Mantis couldn't read Solid, but the stuff about him having "no future" is the CANON reason why he could. believe it or not, Snake didn't canonically beat Psycho mantis by telling the extradimensional guy controlling him to unplug the little tech-thingy said being was using to control him.

The lighting bolt only really sent him into coma, and he wasn't even burnt superficially. Let's not forget that most if not all of the damage Volgin suffered from that lightning was due to all of his bullets going off inside him.

yeah, of course The Man on Fire's regen was due to Psycho Mantis, but let's be real, ALL of The Man on Fire is ALWAYS due to Psycho Mantis, so it's useless to even point out.

It couldn't be anything other than biomanip tho, what he did was perfectly separate the parasite from the vocal cords, and said parasite perfectly attaches to the vocal cords to the point where it's impossible to remove them normally.

Ocelot specifies that he would always know the truth deep down via double thinking. As I said, Venom gets one-tapped by TMOF consistently, he NEVER matches him in power, hell, the whole gimmick of ALL of TMOF's fights is to absolutely avoid him and try to abuse his weakness

Actually it's entirely possible that the gap is that big. MGS4 Raiden wasn't even remotely close to even being at his average strangth, and we know that that body was completely unusable and obsolete even compared to the Patriots one, which is nowhere near as good as the Custom one.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but Otacon outright states that he made REX faster than it was in MGS1, as such, it doesn't scale to MGS1 REX

There were differences functionally, and huge at that. The Marines' one was designed to kill Metal Gears, the Arsenal ones were designed to beat normal human tech. The difference was big enough that it was pointed out.

No, they weren't piloted manually, or at least, not wholly. In REX' case Otacon outright talks about "running an emulator" of its CPU in order for IT to ridistribute its output, and other tech mumbo jumbo, which implies that the Metal Gear has some degree of control over its own functions, especially when Ocelot's RAY was modified and has the legs of the un-manned versions of RAY.

Peace Walker weights 454 tonnes (500 short tons), Class 1 was probably a typo on my end.

Yeah, I mean, he's only at the bottom compared to the others, doesn't mean he isn't skilled, he's still eons better than the best real life fighter/soldier in every aspect.

I kinda agree with Venom being above the Genome Soldiers tbh, the problem is that the Genome Soldiers have the Soldier Gene, which, as shown multiple times throughout the series, makes the "user" far superior to any camparatively-trained human. I guess it's up to interpretation here.
 
Volgin's is resistance to High Temperatures because what he tanked at the end of MGS3 was a normal lightning, which is about 50k Fahrenheit and would have burned him alive if he didn't have a resistance to high temperatures. And he should ALSO get resistance to electricity manip.
As I've already said, it's not a matter of dura in MGS. the Snakes can also shrug off bullets dura-wise, but they still get hurt by them.

eehhhh dunno about inorganic physiology for TMOF, we see that he still has Volgin's body under the fire
 
Aight, so Pressure Points are fine I guess

I'll wait for more input, I'm open for any discussions, though @Twellas What do you think about MGR characters scaling to Peace Walker durability (7-B)? We talked about it earlier but I'm curious if it's up to debate right there
I actually realized that saying that Metal Gears after PW scaled to its inner armor required some big assumptions, as it's NEVER even implied that Metal Gears are capable of tanking nukes. Also, both Raiden and Sam only even hit RAY with HF blades, and as such there's no way of knowing if they would even scale to that feat. The only ones who would scale are EOG Raiden and Armstrong via demolishing EXCELSUS, but again, it would be a big assumption to say that EXCELSUS' armor is on the level of PW's
 
and Status Effect CQC comes from the fact that Snake has a choice to slam the enemy to the ground WITHOUT stunning him
 
As a matter of fact, Soliton Radar falls squarely into the "Life Detection" subseries of Extrasensory Perception
 
Actually, you know what? Let's quantify the gap in power between MGS4 Raiden and MGR Raiden.

The description of the MGS4 body in MGR is "functionally obsolete" and "its battlefield potential is extremely limited". This is all compared to the Standard Cyborg Body, which is in turn "good forbodyguard work and missions that don't involve serious combat", so this body isn't simply old, it isn't even combat oriented, and still the MGS4 body is "functionally obsolete" compared to it. The Custom Body on the other hand, we know for a fact is the absolute best technologically speaking, and entirely geared towards combat, to the point where even the self-repair units were removed in an attempt to optimize it.

so, this is how the scaling goes

3 billion tons= a completely busted version of MGS4 Raiden who had just been stabbed multiple times by Vamp, was actively being poisoned by his own blood and was missing an arm<<<(functionally obsolete, extremely limited combat potential)<<<Standard Cyborg Body<<(old, not even combat oriented)<< Custom Body (peak body possible technologically speaking, entirely optimazed for combat)
 
Bit hard to answer to everything so I'll limit myself for now.

I agree that CQC shouldn't be status effects inducement- it's definitely a martial art designed to knock people out, and that should be noted, but I don't think the way it does is- slamming someone's face against a wall hard enough will indeed knock them out. Slamming someone without knocking them out is probably just hitting them a bit less hard.

I totally agree with EG Ocelot, but I dunno if I do about the Boss, for Chariot's reasons, and because the person doing the choosing definitely had one hell of a bias towards The Boss. Being used as a base for an EG AI also doesn't necessarily imply EG.

I also absolutely disagree with deconstruction. If we counted that as deconstruction, then we'd have to do the same for anyone with a pulverization feat, since they do be breaking something into smaller pieces doe.

I do agree with the skill levels in general, though I'm not too sure on some things (such as The End being worse at sniping than Naked Snake- the only way to get his camo is to sneak up behind it, wouldn't that hint at stealth being the way Snake did it?) and some of the scaling (poor twellas knows this far too well), but regardless, the whole thing looks more or less fine to me. Wouldn't having BB's memories give Venom all of the knowledge of his training with The Boss, though? It would still be lower due to lack of muscle memory, but still.

I haven't finished MGSV (Nor will I ever, odds are, so feel free to spoil me), but wasn't Ocelot also hella scared of the Man on Fire?

I absolutely agree with the weakness changes, it's kind of embarassing everyone missed Venom's in particular. Also, should we add "Believes Santa Claus is real" as a weakness? lol

Also, should Rex' weak spot's durability be mentioned in the right section?

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with Raiden's LS being a lot higher than the MGS4 feat.
 
In regards to the radiation resistance, it should be mentioned it's not a complete one, it renders them infertile, though other than that it did nothing at all, Big Boss even points out how most who were there with him are dying or already killed.

>Extrasensory perception would actually work for stuff like Venom's sonar, since it's straight up not enhanced senses, it's something completely external, same goes for stuff like the Sonic Eye and the Soliton, those are not enhanced senses, it's literally stuff that he couldn't have gotten with his senses.

That's still not Extrasensory Perception, it's still just a different category of enhanced senses, which is super broad and can cover quite literally hundreds of types of perceptions and the like. If you're talking about the Bionic Arm in regards to Venom, that's actually just sonar/sound manipulation and enhanced senses combined. I even have MGSV open right now, I can check in a second. "Enables the use of echolocation to locate enemies, prisoners, and animals. Emits sound waves, so there is a risk of enemies noticing when used". Venom's sonar would fall under sound manip and enhanced senses. Sonic Eye is basically the same, it pinpoints sound and visualizes it as symbols and numbers. Soliton is way more complex but we know exactly how it performs the things it does, not through Ep but other means.

>Big Boss getting EP because he could see The Sorrow is iffy, The Sorrow could have very well just chosen to appear to him.

Nobody else in that room could see him, unless the sorrow can selectively choose exactly who can and cant see him at the same time, it should warrant EP, plus Solid could see Mantis' ghost as well. If you disagree with than Extrasensory Perception wouldn't really happen as none of the radars actually qualify, though Big Boss can see ghosts in Peace Walker as well, as long as he's close enough to them, so either way, there's 3 ghost seeing feats, I think EP is fine for that, but none of the sonars qualify for EP, just a mix of different types of enhanced senses and other sub abilities in conjunction to perform a certain display.

>Fine with the thermal stuff, if it falls under enhanced senses it should be categorized as resistance to enhanced senses

Nice, ok.

>Why should it be tweaked to "minor" resistance tho? He broke out of a paralysis, it's plain resistance. And I mean, Invulnerability is listed as "the power to be immune to conventional harm", it's not a Dura thing because humans in MG should also be able to tank bullets no problem but can't, so bullets bouncing off Raiden would fall under Invulnerability if we take that into account (also, that's why I put it as "pseudo" invulnerability)

Because he had to break out of it, he was effected, just not for long, it's a resistance, but not a full one, a minor one, he could break out, but not before being effected, hence why it should be minor, or limited, you pick, either way. I could compromise and go with a full on resistance, as long as it's specified he is effected by it, at least for a brief moment before he can break out but it's a fact that he was effected by it for at least a brief time. No, Raiden is bulletproof literally just because he's super durable, he's not immune to conventional harm, he's immune to things that simply lack the power to harm him, something with the required AP would harm him, thus, it is him being durable, not invulnerability. Humans in MGS not being able to tank bullets means either the bullets have good AP or the humans lack the durability, or it's a video game and it's just game mechanics or PIS, matter of the fact is Raiden isn't harmed simply because he's bulletproof through durability, nothing more, nothing less.

>The wiki defines deconstruction as "the ability to break something down into smaller parts", not specifying that this has to be done via matter manipulation, The Boss almost instantly disassembling guns would fall at least under "minor" deconstruction.

It wouldn't, and one sentence later the Deconstruction page says "It differs from traditional Matter Manipulation or other abilities like them by only allowing the user to break things down, not manipulate them.". Deconstruction is a subset of matter manipulation, Deconstruction is what you see Thanos do in the movie (even the main example used), Cream from JoJo when it eats something or Beerus from DBZ early on when the material around him start to get reduced to basic components like dust, being able to take a gun apart quickly isn't deconstruction, it's literally just her disassembling it, real life soldiers are trained to learn that as well. You're basically arguing that if someone quickly took apart a puzzle, they'd have deconstruction, when in reality, they wouldn't, because taking something apart with your bare hands when that something is made up of components meant to come part and be put together, is literally just basic assembly, anybody can do it, the only difference is she's skilled enough to do it in like a second. I'm sorry but this isn't an example of deconstruction or even a minor one, it's just basic human hand coordination and a mechanical ingenuity.

>Same thing for Solid, Soliton is straight up extrasensory perception.

Soliton Rader isn't though, it's just another example of enhanced senses, of course an extremely high end version that creates a map of the area and a target's location via electromagnetic waves and biological reactions. This isn't EP, it's just super highend Enhanced Senses, with a bit of vibration/sound/electric/magnetic manip thrown in. It can sense ghosts though, but that's explained with the ghosts having their own EM field. So it's in a weird spot, you'd have to figure out if the sensing ghosts thing is a weakness on the ghosts' parts or a boon to the radar, though given it's explained exactly how it can do it, I'd say that's just due to MGS ghosts have a EM field that the radar can pick up.

>The 4th-wall-break thing is the GAMEPLAY reason as to why Psycho Mantis couldn't read Solid, but the stuff about him having "no future" is the CANON reason why he could. believe it or not, Snake didn't canonically beat Psycho mantis by telling the extradimensional guy controlling him to unplug the little tech-thingy said being was using to control him.

What? I didn't disagree with anything proposed in that section, and when I was talking about Meta reasoning, I was referring to him having no future and Mantis not being able to see the future with him and Meryl being a tongue and check reference to alternate endings, Of course, it being a meta jab at alternate endings doesn't invalidate that, in universe, it actually happened and Mantis couldn't read the future, so it still applies. I never said it couldn't be added, in fact I said it was fine. Resistance to psychic precog and futuresight is 100% fine.

>The lighting bolt only really sent him into coma, and he wasn't even burnt superficially. Let's not forget that most if not all of the damage Volgin suffered from that lightning was due to all of his bullets going off inside him.

I suppose that's true, but it still put him on his ass, though that's just semantics, I agreed with the proposal in the end. Though Spooky brought up a better alternative so I'd rather we go with that.

>yeah, of course The Man on Fire's regen was due to Psycho Mantis, but let's be real, ALL of The Man on Fire is ALWAYS due to Psycho Mantis, so it's useless to even point out.

I mean, you aren't wrong so fair on that point.

>It couldn't be anything other than biomanip tho, what he did was perfectly separate the parasite from the vocal cords, and said parasite perfectly attaches to the vocal cords to the point where it's impossible to remove them normally.

I was thinking maybe teleportation? Or telekinsis+phasing. Given when he removes the things there's no incisions, they just kinda, come out. And we know Mantis can phase and teleport others, given he does it with the man on fire. Which is why I'm iffy on it, it could be biomanip, but it could be other things. It's absolutely something though, so I'm fine with it being said he likely has biomanip as it very well could be that.

>Ocelot specifies that he would always know the truth deep down via double thinking. As I said, Venom gets one-tapped by TMOF consistently, he NEVER matches him in power, hell, the whole gimmick of ALL of TMOF's fights is to absolutely avoid him and try to abuse his weakness

That's true, but in regards to the man on fire, we don't actually know how he stacks up to big boss in the first place. It isn't really fair to say that Venom being weaker then the man on fire means he's guaranteed vastly weaker than Big Boss, as Big Boss could just as well be weaker too. We simply do not know enough about that scaling to make a hard judgement on it. And yeah, Ocelot point is true, but I'm speaking outwardly here, subconsciously he may have known but the context here is what he thought on the surface, at least for the time before it began to wear off. Though, I'm fine with Venom being lower than Big Boss, because he is, I just dont think it's a huge difference to the point it's not even comparable. At least, I'm assuming that's what we're talking about here, hard to keep track.

>Actually it's entirely possible that the gap is that big. MGS4 Raiden wasn't even remotely close to even being at his average strangth, and we know that that body was completely unusable and obsolete even compared to the Patriots one, which is nowhere near as good as the Custom one.

We need far more evidence than possibly it being that big. All we have to go on is that there's a huge gap between MGS4 and MGR Raiden, but a gap of like 300x? That needs sufficient evidence to suggest that, at least doesn't work here because we basically have to assume the gap is 300x when that's just conjecture. If others think it's reasonable that's fine, I'm not entirely against it, but generally speaking we don't give things like at least or other prefixes based on scaling alone unless they were already close to the upper limit of the tier, which Raiden wasn't.

>Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but Otacon outright states that he made REX faster than it was in MGS1, as such, it doesn't scale to MGS1 REX

Eh, that sounds like some sus as **** reasoning from Otacon, but fine.

>There were differences functionally, and huge at that. The Marines' one was designed to kill Metal Gears, the Arsenal ones were designed to beat normal human tech. The difference was big enough that it was pointed out.

That isn't a difference in functionality, that's a different in intent. The Marine was intended to kill REX copies, the Arsenal ones were intended to protect Arsenal Gear. That's true, but it's never actually said they differ in statistics at all, that's an extrapolation based on what they were going to be used for, not something that was actually said. I can see why you may think that's an educated guess and I can get behind it, but the opposite is also true, it's more of an assumption than a hard fact, which is why Likely/Possibly should tell come into play here.

>No, they weren't piloted manually, or at least, not wholly. In REX' case Otacon outright talks about "running an emulator" of its CPU in order for IT to ridistribute its output, and other tech mumbo jumbo, which implies that the Metal Gear has some degree of control over its own functions, especially when Ocelot's RAY was modified and has the legs of the un-manned versions of RAY.

But they literally were, in MGS1 Liquid pilots it entirely, you outright see him do it and even make remarks in reference to his attacks he performs, we even see him pilot it in the cockpit. In MGS4 Snake is piloting it, and actively reacting to Ray and his attacks, we see this on screen and Ocelot the same with him reacting and fighting Rex while in manual control. It isn't entirely computer automated, some parts may be, that's true, but it's not to the extent you're suggesting to where they wouldn't scale at all. If MGS4 Ray is rel+, that's because Ocelot reacted, not because the Ray unit reacted automatically by itself with no input, and if Ray only reacted after the laser was fired then Ocelot must have reacted after as well, if they could do that then Solid having to learn how to pilot it on the fly and Ocelot piloting it in that entire exchange with no mention of any type of helpful AI for that unit. If REX or RAY end up being rel+, that ends up scaling to characters like Ocelot and Solid, it's completely unrealistic to assume that they had no part in reacting or fighting in that fight, because they explicitly were, the only way it wouldnt scale is if it was entirely automated, and besides when Otacon says that he isn't actually talking about REX's movements or anything like that, that's all Snake. I'm not saying they are rel+, but what I am saying is if you upgrade the mecha, then characters like Ocelot must scale as well, because it's just as much their feat as it was the Metal Gear. It's up to you if you want to implement this feat though, if you want to go along with it though you'd need evidence that it isn't an outlier, that should be simple enough though, if it happens reasonably often enough and there isn't any contradictions outside of PIS, it could work but that's not really my place to say.

>Peace Walker weights 454 tonnes (500 short tons), Class 1 was probably a typo on my end.

I think Likely Class K would work, it can support most of it's body weight while spread out, and it's also a giant mecha which kinda speaks for itself.

>Yeah, I mean, he's only at the bottom compared to the others, doesn't mean he isn't skilled, he's still eons better than the best real life fighter/soldier in every aspect.

That's fair, I don't think he's above most of the big names, in fact I think he's outright not above them. But he still super skilled given his showings against the skulls (even being skilled enough to outright rip their blades from them and shove it through their head on a dime).

>I kinda agree with Venom being above the Genome Soldiers tbh, the problem is that the Genome Soldiers have the Soldier Gene, which, as shown multiple times throughout the series, makes the "user" far superior to any camparatively-trained human. I guess it's up to interpretation here.

Soldier Genes help, but Genes aren't everything, that was kinda the theme of MGS1 actually. Take Solid for example, he's actually the weakest clone, yet, somehow, he's the best, even beating his superior in Liquid in direct hand to hand. Or Raiden defeating Solidus, despite Raiden having no genes himself, and that's not even getting into the whole anyone can be Snake under extreme circumstances or Ocelot being God tier despite having no big boss genes (although, The Sorrow and The Boss genes are probably just as good). Well, you get my point, Venom's showings against The Skulls, enhanced superhumans, being Big Boss' right hand man and all this other stuff imply and in some cases directly show insane showings. Though, he's still below young Solid, but young Solid is above even Gray Fox. Though I'm going on a bit. either way, through feats alone I'd say Venom > Genomes but Solid > Venom.

>and Status Effect CQC comes from the fact that Snake has a choice to slam the enemy to the ground WITHOUT stunning him

Ok so he decides not to slam them hard enough to knock them out. CQC isn't status effect inducement, it is quite literally just hitting someone hard enough to stun them, that isn't an ability. Pressure points, stun knives, eletro arm, etc, there's plenty of reasons why they'd have stun listed so the ability being listed is fine, but slamming a dude or bitch slapping someone hard enough to knock them unconscious simply isn't one and we're not going to treat it as such.

>As a matter of fact, Soliton Radar falls squarely into the "Life Detection" subseries of Extrasensory Perception

It doesn't though, when the EP page says that, it's talking about life detection in the way someone like Goku can sense living things or Magician's Red can detect life forms and spiritual energy with flames. The soliton radar on the other hand explicitly detects life, not through means that would qualify, but via electromagnetic waves and pinpointing and registering biological reactions in a target's body through EM fields. It's life detection, but in a way that doesn't qualify. We have abilities that the soliton radar falls under, we can list those instead as that's what it is.

>3 billion tons= a completely busted version of MGS4 Raiden who had just been stabbed multiple times by Vamp, was actively being poisoned by his own blood and was missing an arm<<<(functionally obsolete, extremely limited combat potential)<<<Standard Cyborg Body<<(old, not even combat oriented)<< Custom Body (peak body possible technologically speaking, entirely optimazed for combat)

Yes, but that just confirms it's a huge gap, not 300x, we actually need proof for such a claim. We simply don't do this, in fact Zelda just got downgraded in lifting strength for similar reasons as upscaling super large amounts doesn't work even with large scaling chains unless we have statements or feats closer to the upper limit that would warrant that. They are just really high Class G, nothing more, nothing less. Class G to Class T is a 1000x gap, this isn't a small tier.
--------------------------------
To summarize.
I still think Venom is above the genomes but below the rest of the notable cast.
The radars don't qualify for Extrasensory Perception, Soliton comes close, but we know how it functions and the reason it does what it does doesn't fall to that category.
Extrasensory I feel is still doable though as Big Boss can see The Sorrow when nobody else could, he can see a bunch of random ghosts in Peace Walker side ops like Deadman's Treasure, and he could also see The Boss' soul leave her body and meet The Sorrow after he killed her in MGS3 (if you go into first person after shooting her and look to the side, you can see her soul standing in the flowers). And Solid could see Mantis' ghost and The Sorrow as well if you go into first person and look at the balcony (the sorrow comes and kicks mantis' ghost back to the afterlife, probably the single coolest easter egg in that game). That's 4 ghost seeing feats, with The Boss' soul and the ghosts in Peace Walker being kinda blatant.
For the Rel+ Mecha's, if we say they're Rel+, it's almost impossible to say characters like Ocelot aren't as well, whether or not we use that feat, not my concern, I'm just saying by proxy they'd scale.
The gap between Raiden and MGR Raiden, while large, isn't enough to change the tier or add a prefix.
Status Effect inducement is fine, just not for slapping dudes out cold, other reasoning exists and plenty of it, that can be used instead.
Raiden resisting para inducement is fine, but it's undeniable that it's not a full on resistance as he was explicitly frozen and must break free, if it was a full one, he wouldnt have been effected, which leaves two options, say it's a minor or limited one, or make clear that he does get frozen for a bit before he can break free.
Deconstruction for taking a part a gun by hand isn't deconstruction, not even a minor one, it's simply not the ability being proposed.
The rest either I agree on or it doesn't ultimately matter.
 
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Well, Chariot kinda summed up every point i could bring better than i could lol.

Though i'll say, the fake death pill is just poison manipulation. It's a potassium cianyde pill which is countered by a antidote. Not exactly death manipulation.
 
>I haven't finished MGSV (Nor will I ever, odds are, so feel free to spoil me), but wasn't Ocelot also hella scared of the Man on Fire?

He was (well depends on what you mean by hella, but he wasn't exactly nonchalant), and, I've actually been on a huge MGS binge, since I think August 22nd to now, I've played, Solid 1, 2, 3, 4, MSX 1, 2, Twin Snakes, Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and I'm playing Phantom Pain right now, in fact I'm almost done it, 92%, should have the Platinum Trophy by tomorrow or the next day, and I can confirm, Ocelot was like oh shit oh **** when the man on fire appeared. I should also mention that the man on fire was a threat to Big Boss, Ishmael, to what extent it's hard to say, but Ishmael was put into some dangerous situations as well and made it a priority to get the **** away from him at all costs.

>"Believes Santa Claus is real" as a weakness? lol

I mean, Big Boss is afraid of Dracula too, Joking aside, I think Big Boss has seen enough weird shit to be unfazed by most things at this point.

>Oh, and I agree with Raiden's LS being a lot higher than the MGS4 feat.

I absolutely agree that MGR humiliates MGS4 Raiden. And the description on his lifting strength should be changed to make it clear that the twi aren't even comparable, I just think that the gap isn't big enough without direct proof to warrant any type of change in Class or prefix, we simply do not to that as wiki anymore unless the feat in question was closer to the higher end of the tier.
 
There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?

I was thinking of playing the MG games after V, but I'm really not enjoying it so I might just skip it. Is it your first time playing them?

Yeah I don't think it's worth a change in class, since it gets kinda nebulous that way.
 
>There's also the matter of VS tanking attacks from Volgin, wouldn't that give 8-B dura?
Hmm, maybe? If we say The Man on Fire is 8-B, then if we say Venom got hit by him, he'd of course scale.

>but I'm really not enjoying it
Unfortunate, I really like V, it starts off kinda slow though but once you get into it it's actually super ******* good, the amount of tech, gadgets and ways you can go about doing shit is insane, you can pick and play style you want and it'd work, though given I'm trying to 100% it, my play style was forced into a "being ******* good at the game" style to get all those S Ranks. I'd say keep with it a bit longer, the first 10 chapters are more like filler and ease of play. But once you get DD, Quiet and find your play style and a nice selection of weaponry to have fun with, it gets quite fun. I've had lots of good moments with it, though sadly it's an unfinished product because **** Konami, that doesn't take away from what is there.
> Is it your first time playing them?
Played Solid 1 at like launch, and I played Rising at launch, other then that, yeah my first time, though I knew a lot of the things ahead of time, I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of things.
 
Why every single character is scaled to the 8-B feat by Volgin? When literally Solid Snake and company are still very much human with just advanced combat training and still being hurt weaponry.

Is this tier even remotely consistent with their usual power output through out all the games? Or just is just one throw away feat that is an outlier?

Same goes to Big Boss bench pressing the cocoon.
 
Why every single character is scaled to the 8-B feat by Volgin? When literally Solid Snake and company are still very much human with just advanced combat training and still being hurt weaponry.

Is this tier even remotely consistent with their usual power output through out all the games? Or just is just one throw away feat that is an outlier?

Same goes to Big Boss bench pressing the cocoon.
there's multiple Tier 8 feats, hell I randomly calced a throwaway bit feat done by a rookie solid not even a week ago and it came out to be like Tier 8-C. then we have shit like Solid physically beating Gray Fox in CQC, a superhuman cyborg, or Snake at his worst being able to casually withstand the force of his railgun without even flinching (has recoil comparable to a tank) or old Ocelot denting Outer Haven's hull (a modified arsenal gear that wasn't even scratched by tomahawks). Also they're human, yes, but they're superhuman. Being human doesn't invalidate feats above 10-C, Krillin and mario are human, but they're superpowered, same here. The degree can vary though depending on the game but overall, they're all blatantly superhuman more or less. Yes, they can be hurt by weapons, but these weapons have some nice feats that implies a discrepancy with reality, at least to an extent. (Plus Big Boss himself has stun weapons that are like 1/8th Volgin's output, like his 1.2mil volt stun).

Big Boss benches 3 mechas in that game, not just Cocoon, even then, the cast is blatantly superhuman in lifting strength, like The Boss in MGS3 holding a several hundred KG suitcase like it weighs as much as a wet tissue, with one hand, or as mentioned above, Old Solid being able to withstand a weapon that packs the power of a tank and not even move a inch from recoil.

Of course it isn't 100% consistent, but that's to be expected, it's a video game, but luckily, it's actually more consistent then most surprisingly enough.
 
Them being humans doesn't change anything. There are verses full of humans that are ranging from Tier 7 to even Tier 2.

Also it's quite consistent, Metal Gear Solid has quite many, ehh, fantasy elements? I don't know how to name it. Solid Snake, Raiden and Big Boss are all superhuman supersoldiers, there's nothing outlierish in the series.
 
Reading through this and will give an in-depth response later, but I'm telling you right now that I completely disagree with the current lifting strength ratings for characters like Snake.
 
>for characters like Snake.

There are 5 Snakes

WeirdChamp_44kIr86Yya,q250.jpg
 
So you understand that I mean all of them, awesome!
 
Reading through this and will give an in-depth response later, but I'm telling you right now that I completely disagree with the current lifting strength ratings for characters like Snake.
The reason better not be an argument out of disbelief, because there's very little opposing reason why he wouldn't be what he says. Multiple Mecha lifting feats (and not just by Big Boss in Peace Walker), multiple feats of being uneffected by hundreds of tons of force, etc. There's to many feats of an extreme caliber to say his lifting strength isn't ridiculous. Supplemented by extremely casual lower end superhumans that the characters don't even flinch at or treat as even being a feat (casually flipping around nuclear warheads with one hand with a smile as if it weighs literal nothing for example) There's only two anti-feats I can think of and both are kinda blatant PIS, and one isnt even a anti-feat because he ends up doing it anyway and the other he didn't even try. If you wanna argue this you best come with some damn good solid and consistent alternatives that exceed these feats in number and consistency.

>There are 5 Snakes

There's actually 7 if you wanna get real in depth. Maybe 8. But we don't talk about those.

>So you understand that I mean all of them, awesome!

Gonna be real with you chief, that snarky attitude is already putting me off.
 
>There's actually 7 if you wanna get real in depth. Maybe 8. But we don't talk about those.

Well, 5 REAL Snakes. Jack could barely be classified because it was his nickname for a short time but I get you. What are the other 2 though?
 
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