Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

There's also the fact that fodder MGS5 soldiers can tank Venom's stun arm, which carries 1,2 million volts in a short burst, and normal humans in PW can tank 1,5 million volts from the stun rod

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There's also the fact that fodder MGS5 soldiers can tank Venom's stun arm, which carries 1,2 million volts in a short burst, and normal humans in PW can tank 1,5 million volts from the stun rod

Thats not a durability feat though, thats just electricity resistance

 

[Twellas]

didn't we say that tanking short bursts counts as a durability feat?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, "possibly Low 7-C" is fine for me, but there are more pressing matters at the moment.
Sorry for not contacting you, I had so many people to call that one slipped out of mi mind

It's fine, though like you I'm dumbfounded that MGS3 Volgin going full Emperor Palpatine on Big Bosses ass(this didn't kill, but it broke bones) is comparable to TMOF grabbing and straight up murdering someone who is likely inferior to BB. Like holy hell, "demonic=power" is the logic here. And by that logic, in Overlord Demiurge and Albedo should be Superior to Shalltear and AINZ. Do you see my problem here?

 

[Twellas]

I'm not even sure Volgin broke his bones tbh, the Healing mechanic doesn't show any broken bones after the torture scene from what I recall.
But either way, that argument has been dropped, no point in discussing it further honestly

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, but holy hell did my jaw drop reading that...

 

[Twellas]

same honestly

 

[WeeklyBattles]

- Ocelot casually dents Outer Haven which had previously tanked artillery fire from the USS Missouri without even being scratched, Outer Haven is a modified version of Arsenal Gear, which in MGS2 did this without suffering any damage whatsoever

-Okay, first issue, the video itself says that the Missouri did light damage to Outer Haven. Second, the thats not High 8-C, the Missouri is an Iowa-Class Battleship, meaning that it was hitting the ship with max 8-C+ weaponry, not factoring in surface area and piercing damage (Ocelot's fist is way smaller than a 16 inch round)

-Volgin casually punches a hole into Shagohod's armor, which had tanked this explosion without any damage

-You'd definitely need to gt that calced but i can tell you right now its not High 8-C, seeing as these are small charges of C3 its likely in the high end 9-B to 9-A range, likely not even 8-C, its a series of small explosions set off in succession, and you'd have to take surface area into account (Small surface area of Volgin's fist vs large surface area of the explosion) plus we dont see the Shagohod get damaged by it directly as no explosives are plated on it meaning the result would be lowered even further due to inverse square law.

-The Soviet Jumbo pilot Jet in which Psycho Mantis was held RANDOMLY crashed next to where Volgin was being held

-Causing a jet to crash isnt a tier 8 feat and neither is surviving a jet crashing, normal humans have survive plane crashes

-In that very same tape we are told that the facility in which Volgin was being held CASUALLY burned down (it was Psycho Mantis)

-He burned down his whole village as a child

-Burning buildings down isnt tier 8 either, neither is burning down a village

- He scales above the psychics who can cause natural disasters

-Natural disasters as in...? Thats extremely vague and likely unuseable seeing as most natural disasters are in the tier 7 range, well beyond anything mantis displayed at any point in time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZx7vsYDXTs&feature=youtu.be&t=5569

-The Boss survived her spacecraft crashing into the ocean from orbit

-Okay, big problem with this one. Not only is that not High 8-C, but the video even says and i quote "The Boss used the last of her strength to escape to the surface. Her body was covered in bruises and scorched by radiation. It was a miracle she was still alive. She slipped into a coma and didnt regain consciousness for six months." The crash nearly killed her, thats not something that would scale in any way to her durability.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, none of that is High 8-C and most of it seems tier 9. Surface area is also indeed a thing, I'd eyeball most of those feats as 9-B honestly.

That is a very small dent, and since Arse Gear did indeed get lightly damaged, there's even a chance the structure was weakened.

We don't even see how close the Shagohod is to the explosions, iirc you didn't plant them on it directly, so that's at best 9-B, and probably not even applicable due to vagueness.

Surviving a Jet crash on you directly is 9-B I'm pretty sure, nevermind that Psycho Mantis can teleport so nothing indicates he tanked that.

As they said, most natural disasters are Tier 7, and it might not even be directly applicable to combat (It probably is though, just an outlier)

Surviving a fall from orbit is 9-A, I believe, might be higher if you factor in the spacecraft's weight but it would also absorb most of the impact, so that can't really be calced either, nevermind that she barely survived.

I agree with Possibly Low 7-C for Bladewolf and Khamsin, dunno what the reasoning is but I can guess.

It's worth mentioning, there is an 8-C Solid Snake feat that was calced by Chariot

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It's worth mentioning, there is an 8-C Solid Snake feat that was calced by Chariot

Which one?

 

[Armorchompy]

Which one?

Metal Gear - Solid makes a wall vanish

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here ya go

Considering it's a really old game with sprite limitations, and that it took multiple blows, it might not even be 8-C

 

[WeeklyBattles]

...Im not really sure you can apply pulverization in that case, has any calc member actually looked at that?

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah come to think of it I don't agree with pulverization either, if the game's old violent frag should be the conclusion, if you wanna be nice and not just use frag that is.

Assuming he used rock's values, if I use violent frag you get 1075485261.84 Joules, 1.07x10^9 which is basically baseline 8-C (the baseline being 1.045x10^9), and considering the feat took several punches, it's probably 9-A+

i have no idea why this bar is here and i do not know how to remove it

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with Possibly Low 7-C for Bladewolf and Khamsin, dunno what the reasoning is but I can guess

They scale far below the WoD, who are + in Low 7-C.

 

[Twellas]

First off, I didn't present feats that are DEFINITELY High 8-C, it's simply those that I THINK could fall into that tier, they would all obviously need to be calculated and evaluated.

Okay, first issue, the video itself says that the Missouri did light damage to Outer Haven

Not any visible damage, we see Outer Haven multiple times after that attack and its surface is completely immaculate, but fair enough. Let's not forget about this feat tho

You'd definitely need to gt that calced but i can tell you right now its not High 8-C, seeing as these are small charges of C3 its likely in the high end 9-B to 9-A range

Of course it would need to be calc'd, but I don't think only considering the explosive's yield would work, the whole actual explosion shown on-screen would have to be taken into account

-Causing a jet to crash isnt a tier 8 feat and neither is surviving a jet crashing, normal humans have survive plane crashes

fair enough

-Burning buildings down isnt tier 8 either, neither is burning down a village

it was a whole facility, and I'm fairly sure that destroying a village is superior to destroying a Large Building, but as i said, you are the calc wizards, you do your magic

Natural disasters as in...? Thats extremely vague and likely unuseable seeing as most natural disasters are in the tier 7 range, well beyond anything mantis displayed at any point in time.

As in, a natural disaster, I'm fine with it being considered an outlier tho

Okay, big problem with this one. Not only is that not High 8-C, but the video even says and i quote "The Boss used the last of her strength to escape to the surface. Her body was covered in bruises and scorched by radiation. It was a miracle she was still alive. She slipped into a coma and didnt regain consciousness for six months." The crash nearly killed her, thats not something that would scale in any way to her durability.

1- she survived and had enough strength to swim back up from the ocean, so yeah, she scales, 2- there were a plethora of other factors that caused her to go in a coma, among which heat and radiations. But ok

Honestly, you do you, the calc members are gonna calc these feats and I'm going to be fine with whatever comes out, just don't nerf my MGR babies, please

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not any visible damage, we see Outer Haven multiple times after that attack and its surface is completely immaculate, but fair enough. Let's not forget about this feat tho

Light damage is still damage and surface area is still surface area. What exactly is the feat there...?

Of course it would need to be calc'd, but I don't think only considering the explosive's yield would work, the whole actual explosion shown on-screen would have to be taken into account

Yeah the whole actual explosion wouldnt yield 8-C, its a bunch of at best 9-A explosions going off in succession

it was a whole facility, and I'm fairly sure that destroying a village is superior to destroying a Large Building, but as i said, you are the calc wizards, you do your magic

Okay but directly destroying something and burning something down are two different things, burning something down is done over time to the point where its basically unuseable as general AP

1- she survived and had enough strength to swim back up from the ocean, so yeah, she scales, 2- there were a plethora of other factors that caused her to go in a coma, among which heat and radiations. But ok

That doesnt really change the fact that the blunt force of the impact would be lucky to break out of 9-A and she still received a severe amount of blunt force trauma. Basically thats like saying a normal human has wall level durability because they were hit by a speeding car and lived after being in the hospital for a year.

 

[Twellas]

Honestly, you do you, the calc members are gonna calc these feats and I'm going to be fine with whatever comes out, just don't nerf my MGR babies, please

 

[Armorchompy]

Once again, surface area is a thing, the amount of damage an explosion applies to a 10 cm area is much lower than its potency as we rate it in the wiki, a hand grenade's not gonna pulverize a cube of steel even if it has the numbers to do so. So even if the first two feats were High 8-C, or even 8-B, it'd probably give much lower results for a punch.

The problem with destroying a whole village is that we don't know how it happened, just that it did. For all we know he could have smashed away at everything he could, with enough range and attack speed you can destroy a village with 9-A potency.

I can agree that it's a durability feat for The Boss now, but I still don't think it can be calculated since we don't know how much the pod she was in absorbed, nor do we know how much it weighed (though I'm sure a stat for the latter can be found). Hell, it could even give tier 7 results if you ignore the fact that the pod would absorb most of the damage, since for some reason Samus Aran without her suit has ******* Town Level durability for solely this kind of feat

MGR folks should not be affected though, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't even 8-A Raiden have his own feats?

 

[Twellas]

MGR folks should not be affected though, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't even 8-A Raiden have his own feats?

Yes, and the High 7-C also comes from Armstrong's feat, so they are completely safe, especially since it's not some dubious lightning feat, it's a plain explosion and they were in the very center; I was just joking

 

[Twellas]

I think we can all agree that this downgrade takes priority over the CRT, I think it's best if we wait for the cast's tier to be defined before we move on to the other stuff

 

[Armorchompy]

Absolutely agreed, at most we can sort out minor stuff if the calcs take a while

 

[Armorchompy]

Also I'm playing MGSV and a codec just said Mantis amplifies the person he latches onto's strengths (Informant's report, Part 1), not that it matters, but hey, would you look at that. It also said that Skull's personality would have been the one to take over, so saying Mantis was toying with him also doesn't make much sense.

 

[Twellas]

he CAN amplify the target's strength, CAN, as well as he CAN turn them into a puppet etc. But this is not what's happening with TMOF; Ocelot outright explains what happened with Volgin saying "The boy, parasitizing The Man on Fire's desire for Revenge, gave him his new abilities", he doesn't mention "made him stronger" or anything of the sort. Basically Volgin manifested his "burning hatred" of Big Boss through Mantis and used his powers to essentially come back to life and get his new fire abilities, that's it. And even if we say that TMOF was stronger than Volgin, there's no indication that said difference would be so big, and Naked's performance against Volgin is so much better than Venom's that it would barely even change anything.

Mantis actually channeled Eli's rage when piloting Sahelanthropus against Venom, and even then, we'd be giving a character a tier just because "come on, it's a metal gear! It's gotta be THIS strong!".

We dropped this point, and it's made even more useless by the downgrades going on, seriously no point in debating this right now

 

[Twellas]

Oh, and all of that stuff from the Informant's Report would give Psycho Mantis Power Bestowal

 

[Armorchompy]

So, Mantis can amplify the strength of those that he parasitizes due to their strong emotions. Mantis latched onto Volgin, due to his strong emotions, and gave him new powers. I don't think it's such a big jump in logic that he is indeed powered up by Mantis. It's not unimportant because we should or should not explain on his page that TMOF is stronger than Volgin in terms of AP.

I'm fine with Sal not scaling to other Metal Gears, but there's no way TMOF wasn't getting as powered up as possible by Mantis, since Skullface was the one in direct control of the third child (before that whole mess with Sahelanthropus and Eli in the ""finale""), and obviously he wouldn't **** around and waste his chance at revenge.

 

[Twellas]

Not really, Mantis wasn't ALWAYS controlled by Skull face, he is controlled by whoever has the strongest "negative emotions" within his range (3 miles) at any given moment. Skull Face doesn't control TMOF via Mantis, Skull face only ever uses him to control Sah, Volgin controls TMOF, and we are told by Ocelot that the extent of Mantis' influence on Volgin was "giving him his new abilities", period.

Oh and btw, now that i think of it, didn't TMOF notive that Venom was NOT Big Boss as soon as he canonically got close to him? And doesn't this, like, completely invalidate the idea of Venom being a "perfect clone" of BB?

 

[Armorchompy]

Volgin or Skullface controlling him, there is absolutely no reason either wouldn't make him boost TMOF's strength. And Ocelot says TMOF got new abilities from Mantis, but he never says that he did not boost his strength. Hell, maybe he included "superhuman (by MG standards) strength" as one of the new abilities he got

Who knows, maybe the dude looked at Venom's **** and said "nah, i'm an expert on *****, and that ain't it". Jokes aside, if TMOF has a hold on Mantis' powers, maybe he read his mind or future through that?

 

[Twellas]

Volgin or Skullface controlling him, there is absolutely no reason either wouldn't make him boost TMOF's strength. And Ocelot says TMOF got new abilities from Mantis, but he never says that he did not boost his strength. Hell, maybe he included "superhuman (by MG standards) strength" as one of the new abilities he got

But we are talking hypotheticals here, what we are told is that Mantis gave him his new abilities, period. And "superhuman strength" wouldn't be a "new ability" because Volgin already had that

if TMOF has a hold on Mantis' powers, maybe he read his mind or future through that?

He just seems to recognize him, as you can see by the fact that Venom's "post plastic surgery" face flashes to him. Also Ocelot doesn't really mention that Mantis can give mind reading to his "subjects"

Who knows, maybe the dude looked at Venom's **** and said "nah, i'm an expert on *****, and that ain't it"

Maybe Venom's circumcised and Volgin, realizing that circumcision gives you no tactical advantage whatsoever, immediately realized that it couldn't be Big Boss

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm simply saying it's more of a stretch to assume he was not boosted in strength than to assume he was. And, considering what LS stuff Big Boss can pull off, nothing Volgin shows us is necessarily superhuman. Either way, superhuman or not he might have been, a higher level of that would still count as "a new ability"

Hm. If everyone else is perfectly fooled by that, even people who knew Big Boss for far longer than Volgin, that may be a new ability for him, unsure what.

Honestly it was a joke but "Volgin recognizes Venom Snake is a fake through the memory of the real deal's bulge" wouldn't surprise me too much, I mean he's standing right over him, you know how it goes, rub rub, poke poke...

 

[Twellas]

I'm simply saying it's more of a stretch to assume he was not boosted in strength than to assume he was.

But it's literally not a stretch by any definition of the word, I'm just taking what Ocelot states, and Ocelot is a very reliable source for Volgin's power

And, considering what LS stuff Big Boss can pull off, nothing Volgin shows us is necessarily superhuman

Volgin waves around the 300kg Davy Crocket like a tissue, that's superhuman strength, and it's not even considering his actual AP and durability, which are undeniably superhuman. Volgin is shown to be comparable if not superior to Big Boss in every regard

Either way, superhuman or not he might have been, a higher level of that would still count as "a new ability"

I mean, not really, it would just be considered an empowerment of what Volgin already had, and Ocelot would have mentioned it.

If everyone else is perfectly fooled by that, even people who knew Big Boss for far longer than Volgin, that may be a new ability for him, unsure what.

But man, we gotta look at WHO Venom is fooling: Ocelot knows everything and just hypnotized himself into believing Venom was BB, Miller is half blind and hadn't seen him in 9 years, hell, Miller himself found out! How could he have ever found out if he was a "perfect clone"? And Volgin is probably the person who knows BB's strength the best, having fought him multiple times at "maximum power" and having pushed him to his absolute limits; also, trying to explain this by saying that he got a new ability despite this now being shown to be any kind of ability is a crazy reach

 

[Chariot190]

What did I miss. Give me a quick rundown.

 

[Armorchompy]

Discussion about Volgin, and discussion about AP as a whole.

 

[Twellas]

What did I miss. Give me a quick rundown.

Volgin's 8-B calc isn't valid and the verse is probably gonna get downgraded, it's unclear whether to 8-C or 9-A; I showed some feats that I supposed would be 8-C or around tier 8 in general and WeeklyBattles simply says that none of them are gonna be tier 8 once calc'd

 

[Twellas]

We agreed to give priority to the downgrade over the CRT

 

[Chariot190]

Shouldnt that be, like, its own thread?
a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶a̶v̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶C̶R̶T̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶e̶d̶

 

[Twellas]

I mean, not really; 3/4 of the verse being knocked down by 2 or more tiers is quite significant, way more than anything in this thread, and as long as this thread goes on the downgrade one cannot be opened, due to the limit of 1 crt per verse

 

[Twellas]

But I'm still not sure how all this situation will be tackled, i'd need some confirmations and suggestions from the staff

 

[Armorchompy]

Maybe we should tackle AP-unrelated abilities while we wait for that?

 

[Twellas]

yeah, but I don't know if it's better to momentarily close this in order to allow the downgrade to happen and then continue, you get me? Some input from the staff would be appreciated

 

[Armorchompy]

That does make sense, though since this CRT is already rather wide-reaching we could just do it here.