>I think you are very much confusing Extrasensory perception, putting it as both a means AND an end. You are saying that for the soliton's Life Detection to be Extrasensory Perception it would have to be acquired via Extrasensory Perception, which doesn't really make sense. The page for ESP doesn't specify that it has to be via supernatural means, it merely says
"the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user". The truth of the matter is that the Soliton can detect life via Matter signatures; the fact that IT does it via means that could be boiled down into Enhanced Senses is irrelevant, the Soliton STILL senses life and STILL does it via matter signatures; seriously, saying that the Soliton's matter-signature-reading doesn't give the Soliton Extrasensory Perception just because it is not OBTAINED via Extrasensory Perception is a complete paradox: matter-signature-reading is a REQUIREMENT for ESP, it's not obtained via ESP.
I'm going it be blunt here. It isn't extrasensory perception. Drop it. The soliton radar can sense life, but it doesn't sense life, it sense biological reactions through the use of electromagnetic waves. The page as a concept only applies to supernatural methods, otherwise it's just enhanced senses or something else. It is quite literally, as a concept, not something that applies. When the page says the ability to detect energy, matter and the like, it's talking about energy in the sense of something like Ki or the soul and matter through the use of supernatural methodology. You're saying that what the Soliton does actually being Enhanced Senses means that it can't be Extrasensory, but no, that's
exactly what it means. It isn't Extrasensory, what it does isn't extrasensory, the mechanics behind it isn't extrasensory, as the end of the day it isn't extrasensory. just because it can result in a function
similar to something extrasensory perception can do, does not make it extrasensory perception. To list it as such is literally wrong. I'm not compromising on this, saying it's Extrasensory Perception is a blatant lie. And no, it doesn't do via matter signatures, it does via sonar with EMP pulses, that falls under enhanced senses, not extrasensory senses. Honestly, this feels a bit like when you were trying to give Deconstruction to The Boss for disassembling a gun because both Deconstruction and taking it apart are function result in "the gun being reduced to smaller pieces". The Soliton Radar may be able to sense life, but you're ignoring, how, why, the mechanics and everything else to try and treat it as something it, in reality, is not.
>But he isn't "completely scorched and blackened", not at all, he merely has some charring over him, and you clearly see that most of it is already there
before the lightning even struck him, and you can also see that
he hasn't become any more charred after catching fire, what really does him in are the bullets, hell, he doesn't even scream before those start going off
He kinda is, he's visually extremely darkened, and blackened. Some of it is, but
not all of it. We don't give resistance to a heat if said heat proceeds to char skin and the like. Yes, you don't need to link it for me to see, I can check myself and have done so. The bullets obviously hurt him, and may have done him in, but to say the lightning didn't char him is dishonest. Especially when Snake immediately confirms and says, literally not even five seconds later "Heh, Fried by a bolt of lightning". Not to mention the records pf his death and the like attribute said death to being struck by lightning and fried to death. And I should mention, resistance to lightning and electricity may not actually work to begin with, as Volgin explicitly wears a rubber suit.
>But Ocelot expressly talks about doublethink, in order to subconsciously know the truth when the time comes. Hell, there's absolutely no way he didn't notice anything off, the Phantom Cigar itself is a complete giveaway to anyone who knows Big Boss
Yes, subconsciously he may of knew. But, consciously? On the surface? He didn't, Consciously, Ocelot didn't notice anything drastic. The Phantom Cigar only works for people if they know he doesn't actually like it. Big Boss prefers real cigars, but him not liking the phantom one is something that only comes to light after the invention of the thing and it's kinda something Big Boss would need to inform others of. You just don't assume "I bet Big Boss dislikes Phantom Cigars and would refuse to use them", without being told by the man himself. Though it doesn't matter, it was clearly not something Ocelot noticed as being a large enough discrepency.
>But you are tho. The value IS determinate, but it's undeniably a low cap for the characters; the point is that we know that the gap is ridiculous to the point where it might actually be 300x (****, the gap in AP between the 2 bodies is more than 700x, MGS4 at 156 tons and MGR at 120.000 tons), saying that it DEFINITELY IS 300x is an assumption, sure, but so is saying that it DEFINITELY ISN'T, what's sure is that the Class G feat scales to a weaker version of a fodder character and that MGR Raiden is almost a thousand times stronger than MGS4 Raiden in AP. What you are saying is that MGR Raiden cannot possibly be more than 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden, which is an assumption contraddicted by the AP gap, which is more than 2 times bigger than the required gap.
The other body is also much faster and thus would have a higher Kinetic Force, AP and strength are linked, but when massive speed increases come into play, the connection gets skewed heavily, especially when Raiden's AP is kinetic, his speed likely plays a huge part in the increase, meaning the AP gap simply doesn't help to suggest an explicit gap of such a high degree. Like it or not, we don't upscale like that, unless given a statement. As I mentioned before Zelda literally just got downgraded because characters upscaled to higher tiers based on being literally thousands of times stronger, in some cases millions and billions. Unfortunately, we don't do this, Raiden's feat is to low into Class G to warrant anything higher, and all the feats done in MGR are also only Class M to Class G, nothing suggests a possibly above Class G. Put simply, they're all still Class G, a much higher degree of it, sure, without a doubt, but
still only
just Class G, if you think I'm having to high of a standard, so be it, but I'm not keen on putting unwarranted text onto a profile. Raiden in MGS4 is Class G, Raiden in MGR for all intent and purposes, is still Class G, it isn't indeterminate, because we know that he's still simply just Class G, what we don't know is how much exactly, but the tier and gap is far to large to suggest anything other than a simple flat Class G.
>What more difference do you want than being built for completely different reasons and being completely different physically (the unmanned ones don't even have a tail)? The Arsenal RAYs were mass produced quickly to eliminate average human tech, the Marines' were specifically made JUST to kill Metal Gears, how is this not a change that implies a stat difference? They were built to fight completely different targets that aren't even comparable power-wise
What more do I want? An actual statement, proper lore surrounding the subject, evidence that isn't based on conjecture. They were built with different intents, to kill REX and to protect Arsenal, but that's
literally the only difference given, and it isn't even said with the notion of them being different in statistics, it's just said to explain why they're there. And them being mass produced means nothing, because the Marine Unit was going to be mass produced to kill REX Units popping up all over the globe. Ie, being mass produced isn't an indication of anything as it was outright said that RAY was going to be mass produced to kill REX's all over. And the RAY's being used to protect Arsenal and thus only designed with the intent of fighting basic human weaponry is an assumption on your part, when every single nation including random backwater ones all have their own personal Metal Gear at this point in time, Metal Gear REX is apart of basic human weaponry that would need to be accounted for against attacks on Arsenal Gear, as everyone has one. But, it honestly doesn't matter, you're simply guessing they have drastically different statistics, but that's it, guessing. It's not said anywhere, it's not even actually implied. And given the RAY Unit was planned to be mass produced for killing REX, it doesn't change much, actually, I'm pretty sure that what happened was that The Patriots simply went ahead with the plan to mass produce that RAY but used it for a different purpose, nothing more, nothing less, they're all still effectively the same Mecha and technology, just repurposed.
>Did you forget about the Radome? RAY could very well just wreck the Radome and kill the person inside without needing to scale to REX' durability. You call RAY's completely different legs "a few adjustments"?
Except we know that's not what it means. And you forget that other REX Units all over the globe wouldn't have a purposefully implemented weakness done by an Otaku who likes video games and anime and thus added a weak point to be tongue and cheek. We are told, outright, that RAY can kill REX, not the user. Everything we are told, numerous times at that, says that RAY can actively
kill REX, ignoring one can't kill a machine, it's obvious what it means, RAY can cause enough damage to REX to destroy it. And besides, we outright know it can harm REX because we see them fight and RAY is fully well and capable of inflicting damage upon REX with little issue, the only issue being REX can harm it too. And comparatively, different legs to its body is one adjustment, so it's even less than a few.
>Solid was formally trained by Big Boss, whereas Eli never really had any training in CQC , and didn't show a prowess in it even after being exposed to it multiple times throughout MGS5;
Then we need to remove that ability from the profiles if you want to argue Eli couldn't pick up on CQC.
>all he had was the experience from his White Mamba days and an SAS training, which doesn't even remotely compare to Outer Heaven training. The point of MGS1 isn't that genes aren't everything, it's that you are not bound by your genetics when it comes to what you can do with your life, which is a completely different thing from saying that genes aren't relevant to your combat prowess, because it's shown multiple times throughout the series that yes, the Snakes and Ocelot are just stupidly better than anyone else by default.
Honestly, that's another assumption, we don't know the details of Outer Heaven training, in the vain, every single random soldier at Outer Heaven would be > Liquid in skill (Which then goes ahead and confirms that Venom > MGS1 Liquid and by proxy Genomes as he was evidently the most skilled person at Outer Heaven at the time). What you mean to say is that it doesnt compare to direct training by Big Boss, which is likely true. And, no that's actually exactly what it means. The point of MGS1 is that genes may set the foundation for your life, but they don't decide everything, you arent bound to them, they dont control who and what you entirely, you can break free from your genetic fate if you truly try, etc. Which is exactly what happened. Solid, despite being the generically inferior clone explicitly, still managed to overwhelm and defeat Liquid on multiple occasions despite being at an overwhelming disadvantage in every single one, if genes were the end all deciding factor, Solid would have got his ass kicked by Liquid, the genetically superior clone who had a massive vendetta, but he lost. Snake and Ocelot by default are better then everyone, but that doesn't mean simply having better genes makes you guaranteed above someone else, it's a plot point with Raiden (and he wasn't even the only candidate, others were chosen as possible subjects, Raiden being picked had nothing to do with him being better at fighting but rather his relationship with Solidus and the fact he opts to ignore the past). Though, in regards to the Liquid Vs. Rookie Solid skill, it's moot. Liquid could contend, albeit lose, to an experienced ten year vet Solid, MGS1 Solid>>>>>>>>>MG1. If Liquid is <<MGS1 Solid, he'd be >>MG1 Solid. MGS1 Solid>>Liquid>>MG1 Solid.
>...because it's a huge, immortal fire guy who can teleport and summon fire animals? And Ocelot is never outright "scared", at most he's panicked and tells Venom to get out of there. The point about Ocelot just going there to punch TMOF is honestly ridiculous.
It is ridiculous, it's me being hyperbolic. My point was if TMOF wasn't a threat, Ocelot could have dealt with it himself, why wouldn't he? He knew about TMOF, he knew he was coming, he could have easily been prepared, but he didn't instead he choose to flee, why? Well obviously not because he could single handily beat TMOF without much issue and zero risk of endangerment. But as said, I'll check the game to see what happens if Ocelot is attacked and the like.
>Ocelot only briefly mentions TMOF as one of the reasons for the whole thing to be moved ahead of schedule, he only says "and the man on fire picked this time to wake up too", which doesn't imply him being a significantly pressing threat. But even then, TMOF being a threat to BB is absolutely irrelevant, at best it demonstrates that he's comparable to him, which is something that was already taken for granted.
It's actually one of the biggest reasons, it forced them to move ahead of schedule, if he wasn't a thing, they wouldn't have been in that much of a rush. That was what pushed them over the edge really. TMOF is a threat to Big Boss, it's undeniable. If anything Big Boss is weaker than TMOF as well by virtue of him being Volgin on steroids, who could break Snake's bones while alive. TMOF>Volgin>Both Venom and Big Boss.
>Literally the only possible scaling VS has to 8-B is TMOF, and he's stupidly weaker than him, that's not enough to warrant a full tier imo
We actually don't know if he's stupidly weaker than him, in all direct physical encounters with TMOF, nothing really happens, Venom gets knocked over, and that's usually the extent of it. In regards to the second time, Venom literally let's it happen. And not really, if Venom, under
any circumstance takes a hit from TMOF and lives, he's 8-B, given TMOF is over 2x into 8-B. And it would also discredit even the need for a likely, if he tanks a hit, then that's a flat out rating. If we use gameplay, then Venom can tank a hit from TMOF. Thus, Venom scales directly. And using gameplay here by all accounts should be fine, it's a game that has literally hundreds of dialogue and statements in regards to actions that happen in gameplay.
>You are still describing a case in which Snake's body automatically reacts, and which is nowhere near as simple as grabbing a falling cup
It's actually the exact same thing. When you knock a cup over filled with a liquid, you go to grab it thought thinking, automatically. You don't think about it, you just do. It is by definition Instinctive Reaction, but not to the degree it would be an ability listed.
>It's not nearly as hyper specific as you claim it to be. CQC is composed of different, real world martial arts, this would mean that wen approached by anyone of these martial arts (and there's like 20 of them) Snake will instinctively react.
That's literally not what it means, otherwise Snake would be doing CQC in every other day by accident, even though we know for a fact he hadn't used in in 19 years. CQC isn't compromised of different fighting styles, it's based upon on a bunch, but it's not literally just said styles. We are told Snake only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it. It's explained, by he himself, why his body does that and in what circumstance, if the circumstances dont align with that, he wouldn't use CQC automatically. Those other fighting styles aren't CQC even if CQC has some similarities with it, especially when it has to be a pale imitation in order to force Solid to use it.
>Not really, there's also the case of him dodging Sniper Wolf's sniper round without him possibly knowing beforehand
Not concrete enough, that could literally just be him dodging it normally. And in canon, he failed to dodge.
>There's nothing to "take literally", Psycho Mantis literally just said "this is the reason why I cannot read your future, the members FOXHOUND are the same", simple as that. And no, I think that Psycho Mantis simply read his mind, something not even Solid resists, so it's not even a counterfeat. I don't know why you want to take these statements about "losing your future" (which is inherently allegorical as a statement) literally.
You're kinda arguing against yourself here, if we don't take these statements literally then there wouldn't be any resistance in the first place. If you saying Mantis simply read his mind in reference to Liquid, I'm unsure, I'll need to check if it was mind reading or futuresight specifically, if it's the latter, obviously it wouldnt apply. And I'm cautious because the reason why Solid's future couldn't be read is a meta 4th wall breaking reason, which normally, wouldnt matter, but when it's about the abilities of a 4th wall breaking meta character, it becomes a tad different.
>but as I said, the meta reason is irrelevant, we are given a canon, in-universe reason by PM himself, and he also says that the same reason applies to Ocelot and LiquidOr he could be simply comparing Solid to them, not specifically saying they are literally 100% don't have a set future, because they all did, every single FOXHOUND's future couldn't be changed, opposed to Solid who had multiple endings with Meryl. As said, normally this doesnt matter, but it's Mantis, his whole thing is being meta, and he's aware of it himself. As such I'm cautious, but as said, I'm neutral on it, I won't argue it further as it's redundant, if others agree I can get onboard with it and you can count me to it too.
>The first thing to point out is that these are different Speeds for RAY and Ocelot. It's a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it dodged an attack, basically the definition of "combat speed") and a Reactions feat for Ocelot (very minor movement, if any).
And? Whether it's reactions or combat speed, not my point, my point is that it would scale to Ocelot's reactions as well. And it wouldn't be minor, it'd be enough to
>In MGS2 Scott Dolph states that RAY has a
JTIDS that allows it to autonomously identify targets and fire at them, from this we know that even the Manned RAY has an extremely significant automatic side to it.
That's literally just a lockon, we have those IRL. And we know fir a fact Ocelot can manually control, and does, the RAY Unit, we literally see him press buttons and shit at times. Also, it being able to lock-on to targets has nothing to do with it's movement which is explicitly manually controlled by Ocelot and given the feat is about it
moving, you can see where this lock-on system is not relevant, it's not actually changing anything.
>but looking at the whole context of the feat I posted, you can see here
that the dodge happens right after RAY was knocked to the ground. There is no true way of knowing if Ocelot inputted the jump WHILE RAY was on the ground.
What I'm saying is that Ocelot could have very well just "told" RAY to jump while it was on the ground, and the RAY jumped as soon as it could. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it could explain it, ity would be a sort of "aim dodge" situation for Ocelot that wouldn't inder RAY's feat, since RAY still moved that fast.
In order for this to be true and not scale to Ocelot, Ocelot would have had to guess he'd be knocked down the ground, input a jump command ahead of time, get knocked down to the ground, and then jump. That's obviously not how it works or how it happens. To remind you, this feat takes place in gameplay, the same scaling applies to REX's movement, which is explicitly controlled by Snake, along with every single one of RAY's movements, controlled by Ocelot. Hell, Ocelot and Snake can physically move while this feat is happening (it's hard to tell because Snake is mostly obscured), but either way. And it wouldn't be an aimdodge either, because it isn't like things suddenly slow down to a crawl while that feat is going on, the speed REX and RAY move while dodging lasers is literally the same speed they move while dodging and attacking throughout the whole fight, and we know for a fact Ocelot and Snake are manually dodging in response to each other's attacks, not ahead of time.
>The easies solution tho is to take it as both an outlier and a valid feat: an outlier as a Reaction Speed feat for Ocelot (because it's vastly above what Ocelot usually displays) and valid as a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it's RAY's only real speed feat, is goes well with the idea of it being significantly faster than REX).
It isnt though, that's simply being dishonest. If it scales to one, it scales to both. By virtue of it being above what Ocelot usually displays, it's also above what Ray usually displays, because characters like Raiden, Solidus and the like can consistently fight Ray units or react to them. Hell, Solid Snake literally swims fast enough to place a tracker on the MARINE Ray, after it began to take off.
>And with Snake and REX, I'm just gonna say that you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief and, as you said about Psycho Mantis, "dont think to hard about it". Snake clearly had help from Otacon in piloting the thing, to the point where Otacon had control over every internal function of REX. If Otacon had enough control over REX to make it significantly faster and to unlock an entire combat-program, it's not at all a stretch that he helped Snake out in the moving department.
False analogy, we are explicitly told, multiple times, that Solid Snake himself is manually controlling the movement, he's the person dodging, not Otacon, not MKII, we are told this explicitly it is Snake who decides when to dodge and when to stop dodging. This is him, thus, any dodge done by REX is actually done by Solid. It doesn't even matter if it's a stretch or not, because it's simply wrong. Solid did it, not anything else. At this point you're hiding the outlier and making way to many assumptions that are either completely conjecture or outright contradicted by what we're told in game.
>as to the scaling to the unamnned units, again, Ocelot's model is modified significantly and was made to counter REX, including his laser, the unmanned units would at best scale to "possibly"
This has nothing to do with physicals, it's about Solidus straight up blitzing the RAY AI, the thing you're trying to say Ocelot had implemented (which is a complete assumption on your part not stated anywhere)
>Except the unmanned RAY units were being effected by the worm planted by Snake and the crew, so they were nowhere near at thir average "mental capacity" during their confrontation with Solidus, hell, most of them don't even move and just stay there, twitching
Except we actually see what's happening from a RAY's POV at one point, Solidus blitzes them all, they were being effected by the worm cluster, but it doesn't change the fact they were all blitzed by Solidus. And that's ignoring Raiden could fight off multiple RAY's at once for awhile before the worm cluster began taking effect.
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To summarize.
Soliton isn't Extrasensory Perception, it can result in a similar function, but it isn't. Treating its as such is simply wrong.
Volgin's resistance to natural lightning based heat I still disagree on, some resistance to heat is fine for fire, but not lightning, as it was confirmed he was fried by it, and we see added charring to his corpse. Lightning resistance in general is a tad sus even, as his suit is rubber, though, he would still get a resistance anyway even if it's just because of his suit, the reason why it's possible may be different but it's still a thing so that's fine.
I still think Venom is just solidly 8-B, he can tank attacks from TMOF, he's weaker yes, but so is Big Boss. Venom is obviously still below Big Boss and TMOF, but tanking hits from an 8-B is still 8-B, no need for a likely, he's just on the lower end is all.
Instinctive Reaction is hyperspecific, I stand by these, Solid himself explains how and why it's a thing that happened. He can have it, but it'd be highly limited untill I go and look for a better example.
Mantis precog resistance and all that fun stuff I'm neutral on, if enough people agree I have no issue with it being added I suppose, so no need to further that.
The scaling differences between Marine and Arsenal Ray being different doesn't hold up, it's based entirely on assumptions, while a few seem reasonable, the opposite is true, and in my opinion, likely the canon assumption as them being weaker is ever actually said and being mass produced isn't indictive of anything as that was the plan the whole time.
Ray is called a REX killer because he can harm REX, and we see him do it, mobility helps edge REX out, but RAY has the stats to contend with REX as well.
For Rel +.
Regardless, I don't care if we treat them as Rel+ or not. But you're making way to many assumptions to try and say they aren't, if you have to make this many assumptions to come to such a conclusion, chances are that conclusion is faulty, Occam's Razer exists for a reason, trying to create a scaling chain based on conjecture as to why it wouldn't be doesnt work, some assumptions are fine but this amount is ludicrous, and some aren't even true like Solid not being the person who's dodging RAY, as Otacon outright says he is the person doing it and to keep up the good work essentially. And there's even more direct scaling to the mecha's that have yet to be mentioned, it's simply not possible to say that one is that fast but the others aren't, they have comparable speed, at least in reaction and bursts, that scale between.
