Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

>Ocelot was like oh shit oh **** when the man on fire appeared. I should also mention that the man on fire was a threat to Big Boss, Ishmael, to what extent it's hard to say, but Ishmael was put into some dangerous situations as well and made it a priority to get the **** away from him at all costs.

But nothing necessarily implies that Ocelot is scared due to AP, it's more likely due to TMOF being a big, unstoppable fire man who can summon whales and unicorns as well as teleporting around. The fear could also be due to the very tangible possibility of Venom dying. The problem with Ishmael was that Big Boss was going out of his way to seem like a normal human, to the point where he didn't even use CQC on Quiet, it wouldn't be completely ludicrous to say that BB just pretended to not be able to stop him, because if the guy who was supposed to be an average Joe just punches the fire-man's teeth in then the whole thing just crumbles.

But I do agree that things are not quite clear cut with Venom, that's why I'm opting for a "likely" and not "possibly".

 

[Chariot190]

>We are considering post-nuclear test Snake, who is shown to be completely unscathed by radiations multiple times. The fact that the first time he got hit by radiations he was rendered infertile doesn't change the fact that as of the Virtuous mission he is completely uneffected by them

Yes, but it's true that we was indeed effected by radiations, just to a trivial degree, though, the first time around, he became infertile. He aint getting sick or cancer from radiation, but it's been shown radiation does effect him, just not to a big degree. Though, other than infertility, nothing really happened. Mind you, I never said they shouldnt have a resistance, or that it can't be flat out. It's good enough to where I agree a simple flat out resistance is sufficient and fair, all I ask is that a mention be made that it rendered both Big Boss and The Boss infertile, that's all.

>Fine, I underestimated the extent of Enhanced senses as an ability

Cool.

>Yeah fine

I mentioned two more examples later on, with The Boss' soul and Solid being able to see The Sorrow in MGS4 too, but ok glad we agree on that front.

>The problem with Raiden's feat is that it's not just plain Paralysis he resisted, it was also hypnosis. I honestly don't see the need to add "minor" to this resistance, as manay characters such as Goku get a full resistance by initially being effected and then breaking out.

I thought it was also a bit of shadow manipulation as well, as Vamp pins their shadow with a knife. Though in the case of Big Boss and the freeze beam and Raiden with Vamp, both cases had them be effected by it, but had to struggle to break free, of course they did it, but the fact that they were effected and had to struggle suggests not a full on resistance. Though, Minor does sound harsh, so I propose just say it's a limited resistance, that or, as said, make it perfectly clear in the justification that they were effected and had to struggle to break free first.

>Agree, tho i disagree with the idea that if a real human being can acquire it then it can't be an ability, but that's beside the point.

I guess I wasn't clear on that front, saying a human can do it irl wasn't meant to imply it cant be a real ability, but rather that the thing showcased was a real skill people have that is evidently not deconstruction. And that what she did was just said skill on roids.

>But in the end, it's still Life Detection. The means through which it's achieved aren't really relevant, especially when the ability page lists stuff like "matter signatures", which could easily be considered to be the Soliton's reading of the target's biological reactions. Snake also doesn't have all the abilities that make up the Soliton, so putting those on his profile would require some tedious explaining.

It's life detection, but the means actually do matter. It can detect life yes, but we know how it detects life, and it isnt via extrasensory perception. It's through electromagnetic manipulation. Simply being able to sense life isnt extrasensory perception, even though extrasensory perception can be life detection and vice versa. It's like how All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Simply sensing life isnt extrasensory, even if some times it is. We know how the radar does it, and it doesnt qualify. It's a different ability altogether. And tedious or not, our goal is to be accurate. But it really wouldnt be that hard, linking through text is a thing we can do and often do anyway, simply explain how it works, and when the relevant wording comes up, have that line of text link to the ability. And in regards to matter signatures, yes, it may be able to pinpoint things like that, but it isnt through extrasensory perception, it's through electromagnetic waves bouncing off things like a sonar and registering and recording biological targets that it hits and sends them back to the user in the form of a map, it's not extrasensory in anyway, it can even be recorded like normal sonar and have 3D maps be created out of the pings as shown in MGS4 with Naomi and Sunny.

>But Electricity Manipulation is not an alternative, it's just another thing that needs to be added. And I mean, you LITERALLY see Volgin get engulfed in flames and not suffer a single burn after the lightning bolt, if this isn't Heat Resistance then i don't know what it is. It's also worth noting that Volgin only really started to suffer after the bullets started going off, so it's not even entirely true that the lightning bolt knocked him out

Ok so, I went back and watched the two scenes were this is relevant. In scene 1, when Snake fights Volgin as the C4 is about to explode, he does catch fire, and is completely fine. So, resistance at least on the caliber of basic fire is fine. But, the second time, where he gets struck by light and the bullets start firing and he gets engulfed in flames, I'm sorry to disagree here, but in this example he very clearly gets overwhelmed, and isnt fine, his body after the fact is completely scorched and blackened, which is something the bullets simply wouldnt do. So resistance to heat is indeed fine, just not on the caliber of a natural lightning bolt, as he was ultimately defeated by one and reduced to a charred corpse with it even being pointed out the irony in a lightning bolt doing him in.

>But he still would have had to separate the vocal cord from the parasite, which is impossible on a biological level since they are almost one in the same. Also, how would teleport work in this case? Would it be like "i target the parasite" despite PM not possibly knowing anything about the parasite? It's just complex tbh

Psycho Mantis was aware of the parasites though and knew all about them? He even stole the english strain from Skull Face and gave it to Liquid to use against MB. Plus he worked closely with Skull Face, let alone he could read minds so if he wanted he'd know everything about them from Skull Face and Eli, which he probably did anyway. But yeah, simply teleporting them out and just them could be a possibility, or phasing, it's honestly hard to say. Biological Manip, as said, could be a very real possibility, it's just hard to say for certain because other explanations can exist using what we already know and the fact the cutscene itself isnt finished makes it hard to tell with certainty what happened. But I'm fine with bio manip, as long as it's prefixed with a Likely/Possibility.

>I never said this, what I did was debunk the idea presented on his profile that Venom scales to TMOF, that's all, I'm not saying that him being weaker automatically makes him far weaker than Big Boss, what I'm saying is that Venom is clearly shown to be nowhere near comparable to TMOF unlike what his profile states. Is TMOF also stronger than Big Boss? Possibly, but that's beside the point.

I do agree that the wording must be changed, physically TMOF and Venom never actually fought, and the few physical encounters we have seen is just Venom being knocked back and TMOF not actively following through on anything so that reasoning should indeed go. Though, I still think a case can be made to scale Venom's durability to TMOF's projectiles.

>Also, if Ocelot actually knew the whole thing and was just faking it, as he says in the truth tapes, then what he though "on the surface" is irrelevant, because it was informed by his subconscious. Either way, Venom never even fought Ocelot.

That's partially right, Ocelot knew the truth, but for a chunk of the game, he didn't, kinda. Like Venom, he subjugated himself to Hypnotherapy to make him think Venom was the real Big Boss too, the hyponotherapy eventually wore off for him though later in the game behind the scenes, but for the time period where Ocelot forced himself to forget about the real Big Boss, he didnt notice anything off at all from what we can gather.

>I NEVER said that VS would be lower than Big Boss tho. What I said is that we don't have enough proof to DEFINITIVELY say that he's equal to him, hence the "likely" rating.

Ok, that's fair. I'm fine with that as a base. Though I'm pretty sure he'd still be solidly 8-B for scaling to characters like Quiet and The Skulls in physicals, given he can outright overwhelm and physically restrain them like with Quiet.

>You are putting way too high of a standard for "At least". The wiki itself defines the usage of "At least" as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate", what you are referring to is "likely". I we had conclusive proof of Raiden's custom body being 300x his MGS4 one, then we wouldn't put "at least", we'd just give him T, don't you think? I don't think anyone would argue that the MGS4 feat constitutes a lower cap compared to MGR

I'm not putting to high a standard, I'm just not keen on superficially given prefixes that arent warranted. And yes, that's true, but that only really applies to tiers and gaps where said value is actually indeterminate. The value isnt indeterminate though, it's Class G, not any higher, not any lower. We don't add At least ____ to something when the value, no matter how you slice, is still solidly with that tier. MGS4 Raiden is Class G, MGR Raiden, despite being hilariously above MGS4, is still Class G, just a way higher degree, ergo, the rating is still just flat out Class G.

>It's not just a difference in intent, the two models are literally physically different.

They're barely different though, not nearly enough of a difference to suggest any drastic difference with stats. Especially when no such thing is implied, the differences we do know of aren't even about stats, it's mostly just manned and unmanned utility.

> It wasn't actually said, yes, but the deal is that MGS2 RAY's rating would already be a "likely" or "possibly", because it's just a statement and could very well be referring to outmaneuvering and not overpowering or something like that,

Are you talking about how RAY is meant to defeat the REX units? And it could just be talking about having better mobility? That's actually true, RAY does have better mobility, but, that's a half truth. RAY is explicitly stated to be able to kill REX's, if memory serves, it's outright said to be a "REX killer" and made to combat Metal Gears. If RAY lacked the AP to defeat REX's, then it'd be useless, mobility or not, being incapable of harming your target makes you kinda useless as a killer. And for durability, well we see that RAY from MGS2, just with a few adjustments and a nice paintjob can take a huge beating from REX in MGS4, being stomped, slammed, missile'd, laser'd, crunched, etc before going down, and even then, it was mostly intact.

>if we put on top of this the fact that now RAY's purpose isn't even to kill MGs anymore, what are we left with? Is the fact that a wholly different model, made with a completely different purpose was stated to be capable of killing REX enough to warrant a "likely", or even just a "possibly? "possibly" we could agree on, but "likely" is just not realistic tbh

As explained above, the Marine RAY is definitely comparable to REX, maybe not exact, but enough to fight it and kill copies. I can agree with possibly, I understand where you're coming from, possibly is a fair enough compromise between both interpretations.

>Actually we see that the Mak III is plugged into REX, allowing Otacon to remotely control REX along with Snake, which is how Snake managed to pilot it despite not possibly knowing how to do it (and you can't even say that he would have experience, since from MGS2 we know that he can't drive helicopters).

Yeah, the MKII helped him pilot it, Otacon says himself, he'd help Snake learn and get use to it fast. He was helped to learn and pick up on it quickly, but that's it. Him not having experience with helicopters years prior doesn't really change anything said. Snake in MGS2 simply didnt ever interact with a helicopter before in a attempt to pilot it, and in the context of the game, he didnt have time to **** around and get use to it due to hostages and being busy, thus, it was better to just have Otacon, someone who already knew how, deal with all that shit. Couple that with Solid being a clone of Big Boss, he'd be able to learn how to pilot things extremely fast if he bothered. judging by the aerial combat prodigy that is Liquid, which is kinda what happens in MGS4, he picks up on how to pilot REX very fast to the point he's actually not half bad and can fight Ocelot.

>So Snake definitely doesn't scale to REX' movement, because along with the automation, he also had remote help (as to how Otacon would be able to pilot REX to that level of speed, i have no clue, but we could say that it was due to the Mk III, which is technically a Metal Gear itself an MIGHT be fast enough, I have no idea).

Actually, in the case of just plain movement, Solid is 100% the person who's controlling that manually, we see him do in cutscenes, and we see him move in gameplay. MKII being the reason why doesn't change anything either, as MKII had been blitzed at points before (and the fact Otacon controls it).

>What I'm saying is that the automation could very well cover the gap between their Massively Hypersonic reactions and the Rel+ laser, this would solve every scaling problem, because let's be honest, this feat would be an outlier if we applied it to the Snakes and Ocelot. And as I said previously, Ocelot's RAY has the same legs as the unmanned Units from MGS2, so it's highly likely that Ocelot integrated part of the unmanned "algorithm" or whatever it is that allowed those units to move autonomously.

Except in zero circumstance is that ever implied or said. Ocelot is also shown to be piloting Ray himself in the cutscene, along with Snake. It doesn't scale every scaling problem because there's a lot more reasons why it would scale back to the main cast too, I'll add a few examples in a bit. Ocelot's unit was modified but it was a manned unit, not a AI controlled one, nothing says or implies that, and we're explicitly shown that he's 100% the person in control of it. It isn't likely, it's never said anywhere or implied, and if it did it wouldnt matter due to reasons I'll get to in a second.

>Snake was aided by both the MKIII and Otacon while piloting the REX, so it doesn't scale to him; Ocelot's RAY has piece of the unmanned model on it, which implies that Ocelot modified it to have some sort of unmanned function; RAY's automated functions can cover the gap between Ocelot's Massively Hypersonic reactions and the laser

That's true Snake was aided, but not enough to discredit scaling, we know for a fact he's the person in control, controlling the attacks, where to move, when to move, reacting to Ray and so on. We know it's almost entirely him due to CODEC and Otacon's statements through the fight. One such example is Otacon yelling at Snake to dodge, ergo, Snake is dodging, not an AI and not MKII, Otacon is specifically telling Snake to keep up the good job on dodging RAY's attacks, said RAY the performs that Rel+ feat (which was likely entirely Ocelot). And even if it was due to an AI, wouldnt matter, because Solidus could blitz AI controlled RAY units in MGS2, unless you want to argue that even the AI used between RAY's in MGS2 and the hypothetical AI Ocelot may of implemented aren't at all comparable either. But at that point that's going a bit to far into complete conjecture and guessing for my liking as it's not supported by any claim in game. Also, another note, if you're saying Ocelot's MGR was modified to have Unmanned unit's body parts, that would actually support the two RAY models being not that different if at all, as the RAY parts taken from the Arsenal Units faired just as well against REX's attacks as the Marine RAY body parts did. But regardless, I see no feasible way for the mecha's to scale to Rel+ without it effecting scaling of the Solid tier characters, there's far to many showings that would scale them to the mecha, and the worst part is, the Rel+ feat is likely just straight up Ocelot's, at least in perception. If it's an outlier, that's fine, I'm not arguing for this to be implemented, that was never my intent, by point this whole time was if the mecha are Rel+, the so are the main cast. If we treat the feat as an outlier, that's fine as well.

>Solid was a lot more well trained than Liquid tho, having been trained by Big Boss, and Liquid being convinced of being the inferior clone must have played a part. Raiden is the exception that proves the rule, and Ocelot is quite possibly the only character to be more genetically gifted than Snake. Other than that, as I said, I'm neutral on Venom scaling above the Genome soldiers, if others agree, i can get on board.

I'm not entirely sure on the Solid being more well trained than Liquid thing, yeah Solid was trained by Big Boss, by Eli had more experience and ****** around with Venom and the Diamond Dogs in his youth. Plus, as we know, the Snakes can pick up on skills with very little exposure, and unlike Solid, he had no issue using CQC or handicapping himself. Honestly, absolutely everything pointed to Liquid winning that fight, but he didn't because Gene's arent everything, which is the whole point of the game. Him being convinced of being inferior would actually help him win, he was absolutely deadset on proving his inferior genetics wrong and wanted be better then his better half and Big Boss, he was going all out with a explicit goal, when in reality, he was already the better, Basically just motivated him to do better. Raiden isn't really the exception though, half the point was anyone could be Snake, Raiden is notable and extraordinary though, but not anymore than Venom would be in this event. And yeah, Ocelot has some ******* super genes, so not disagreement there. Well, I stand by Venom scaling above the Genomes, he has better feats, showings, even hype and lore, and it aint like Venom losing to Solid is any reason against him being above, as the genomes get fodderized by Snake too, and characters that basically are Genomes but on crack like Frank, were bested by rookie Solid too, actually based on that alone I'd say Solid Young>Venom>?Frank>Genomes.

--------------

>But nothing necessarily implies that Ocelot is scared due to AP

Then why be afraid at all? If TMOF lacked the AP, then Ocelot was in literally zero danger there. No reason to worry, hell, why not just go beat the shit out of him yourself? It'd prevent Venom from risk and cease TMOF from being a issue if Ocelot could just facetank his attacks. Though I'll check tomorrow, I'll open up the mission and let TMOF attack Ocelot and see if Ocelot is actually hurt by it or what happens if TMOF catches up to you and Ocelot.

>The problem with Ishmael was that Big Boss was going out of his way to seem like a normal human, to the point where he didn't even use CQC on Quiet, it wouldn't be completely ludicrous to say that BB just pretended to not be able to stop him, because if the guy who was supposed to be an average Joe just punches the fire-man's teeth in then the whole thing just crumbles.

Was he though? I don't recall him actively trying to seem normal, in fact him effortlessly putting bullets in heads in a fraction of a second, knowing exactly what to do, and all this other stuff kinda implies he wasnt trying really hard (plus he did kinda panic when he was set on fire briefly). Was he trying not to be Big Boss? Sure. But was he actively pretending to be normal? If he was he failed completely and barely tried. Also apparently TMOF was a threat to Big Boss, a pretty big one actually, it's one of the reasons why Ocelot and Big Boss wanted a body double then and there, that being Vemon, as they caught wind of TMOF being a thing and knew it posed a risk to Big Boss, so they hastened their eventual plan for a double.

>But I do agree that things are not quite clear cut with Venom, that's why I'm opting for a "likely" and not "possibly".

Eh, I'm unsure, if worst comes to worst I can agree with this but, I still flat out 8-B is fine, just to a lesser degree than Big Boss, but given Big Boss is 2x into 8-B to begin with, Venom being 8-B as well should be sufficient, it's not exactly reasonable to say he's over 2x as weak as Big Boss or any of the snakes. Plus, he can take hits from TMOF for what it's worth in game and as stated above TMOF was a threat to Big Boss enough to where he needed a body double sooner than later.
---------------------
To summarize
Radiation Manip is obviously fine, no need to give it limited or minor, just make a note that it rendered them infertile.
Resistance to Para inducement is fine, but I still stand by it being minor, limited or heavily specified that the resistance isnt perfect and they still get effected by the ability for a brief while. Either one, it doesn't matter, but one has to be chosen.
soliton Rader still aint Extrasensory Perception, we know exactly what it does and how it works and none of what it does qualifies, simply being able to sense life isn't enough when the mechanics of the ability are explicitly something else and he's not actually sensing "life", in the sense of something like life force, he's sensing a body's biological reactions via EMP, not the same thing.
Resistance to heat for Volgin is fine, but to the extent of fire and the like, extreme heat like from direct lightning bolts is above him, as it did in fact burn him alive and turn him to charcoal layered corpse as we see in MGS3.
Psycho Mantis having Biomanip is fine as long as it is listed as likely or possibly, it isn't 100% certain it's biomanip so we should reflect that in the profile.
The reasoning for Venom's stats and scaling to TMOF needs a overhaul, the reason given right now is faulty, so I agree.
I still whole heartily believe that if RAY is Rel+ so is Ocelot and Solid and those that scale, there's to many feats and scaling between them and the mecha, and it's explicitly said Solid was controlling REX, even being the entity who was dodging RAY's attacks as stated by Otacon and there isn't any evidence for RAY being AI controlled, even if a bit, and if it was, it'd just end up scaling to Solidus instead via blitzing the AI Ray Units. If the feat is a outlier and not implemented, that's fine, but I'm not arguing for it to be used, just that by proxy, both are Rel+, or neither are.
The rest is basically just back and forth TMOF, Venom, Ocelot and Big Boss scaling. I literally lost track of what I was saying a few times and pretty sure I said the same things a few times, it's late so it's probably best if I get some sleep so I can make a better post detailing this without repetition and double check the game tomorrow and look through it for statements and scaling, but, if nothing can be found, worse case scenario, I can get behind Likely 8-B, but at the moment, I'm of the belief that Venom is weaker than Big Boss, but not enough to where he's not at least comparable, possibly supported by him physically overpowering SKULL units in cinematics and CQC events as well as maybe taking hits from TMOF, though that's only in gameplay so further corroboration will be needed, as such I'll make an effort to look for statements and better feats tomorrow.
everything else we either agree on or it's fine and not worth detailing further.

Anyway thanks for reading my book.

 

[Chariot190]

>And about the instinctive reactions, in MGS4 Snake's body naturally uses CQC despite him actively not wanting to, this isn't a matter of him reacting fast, it's a matter of his body literally going on its own to assure hi survival regardless of his conscious choices. If your own body doing something automatically despite your wishes doesn't categorize as instinctive reactions then I don't know what does.
And you could say that it's just muscle memory, but so what? If his muscle memory leads to something like this, why not categorize it as IR? Muscle memory is merely the means through which he gets the ability. This isn't even about him moving his arm or anything of the sort, it's literally a whole ass martial art that his body autonomously uses. Of course it's not the same as Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't have to be

Because it IR as we define it. What Snakes does is no different than what someone does when they drop a cup, they instinctively go and grab it without really thinking. That's essentially what Snake does. He reacts because he's used to being in situations like that, but looking further, that isn't even the case or what happens. Though, he actually willingly does use CQC in 4, kinda, he doesnt want to yes, but he still chose to do it anyway out of hatred, while in MG2 and MGS 1 and 2, he refused, and as such, he simply didnt. I guess you could say he has Instinctive Reactions in MGS4, but it's so hyper specific and limited it's not even funny, his body only reacts instinctively when he's attacked with a specific fighting style, that being CQC, and his body reacts by using the real version of that fighting style out of spite. Other than that, Solid doesn't got Instinctive Reactions, it only ever occurred in response to bad CQC out of spite and some sort of deep heated hatred for Big Boss and what the world has done to him. For anyone following the thread, here's the source for that one and the context. Ultra Instinct was a bit of an extreme example but you get my point.

So if you really want him to have IR, it'd be a case of Limited IR and only in extremely specific circumstances as Solid himself explains. For dodging Sniper Wolf's bullet, that's Twin Snakes, but even if we use that, he could have just saw the bullet and moved his head, as it was heading straight for within his line of sight, compare it to Olga's bullet feat, where he dodges the bullet by moving his head and in MGS1, he actually gets hit in the shoulder because he doesnt notice it coming.

But, I think there may actually be reason for Solid and Big Boss to have IR despite that, I'll have to look into it.
----------
>And about the Precog thing: I'm not scaling to genes when I give it to Liquid, but due to Psycho Mantis' statement of the FOXHOUND being like Snake, and I quote: "you are the same as us, we have no past, no future, we live in the moment". Psycho Mantis clearly states here that the FOXHOUND share the same characteristic as Snake, and it also makes sense, because if Mantis could read the future of the FOXHOUND members, he would have known that Ocelot was going to kill the DARPA chief intentionally etc (and don't say that it wouldn't be in character for him to read his team mates' future, because he' 100% an asshole and would do it)

Maybe, I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally in the event of Liquid and Ocelot, didnt Mantis literally look into Liquid's future at one point off screen? And no, I full believe Mantis would read his team mates mind, but when it comes to Ocelot, I dont think reading his mind actually helps to know what the **** he's planning given half the time even he himself doesnt know. Though I'm actually more inclined to say that's just an example of "dont think to hard about it", but either way. I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally and at face value in response to the other characters given the reason why Mantis couldnt read it was meta, and while normally meta reasoning absolutely doesnt effect in-universe reasoning, Mantis as a character is entirely based on meta. I'm neutral on scaling it to FOX HOUND based on that, if others agree that's fine, I have no real qualms with as long as it doesnt touch genetic scaling in the slightest.

t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶M̶a̶n̶t̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶S̶o̶l̶i̶d̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶u̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶w̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶4̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶c̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶b̶v̶i̶o̶u̶s̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶t̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶.̶

Anyway thanks for tuning into my post scrip apparently, I'm out, will check in tomorrow if there's no new posts after I click publish.

To summarize. If you want to go that route for IR, it'd ultra specific and situational with the info we have. But, I think there may be reasoning elsewhere so I'll get back to that.
Precog for FOX I'm neutral on, but absolutely not scaling it to characters like Solidus, or Big Boss (unfortunately) without proof or statements (The Boss' statements aren't literal and have a different meaning we explicitly know for a fact what she meant).

 

[Armorchompy]

I do agree the Precog applying to the rest of FOX doesn't make much sense, it feels too vague for it to apply fully.

I should point out we treat stuff as a shark's sixth sense as Extrasensory Perception, so I think some of the snakes' tech would also apply.

Ocelot jumping off the horse, cracking his knuckles and beating the shit out of the Man on Fire is a very funny visual image.

I think assuming the Relativistic movement speed for Metal Gears doesn't scale to the humans requires a lot of hypothesis and conclusions that don't quite feel right, so it might have to be treated as an outlier.

 

[Twellas]

It's life detection, but the means actually do matter. It can detect life yes, but we know how it detects life, and it isnt via extrasensory perception. It's through electromagnetic manipulation. Simply being able to sense life isnt extrasensory perception, even though extrasensory perception can be life detection and vice versa. It's like how All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Simply sensing life isnt extrasensory, even if some times it is. We know how the radar does it, and it doesnt qualify. It's a different ability altogether. And tedious or not, our goal is to be accurate. But it really wouldnt be that hard, linking through text is a thing we can do and often do anyway, simply explain how it works, and when the relevant wording comes up, have that line of text link to the ability. And in regards to matter signatures, yes, it may be able to pinpoint things like that, but it isnt through extrasensory perception

I think you are very much confusing Extrasensory perception, putting it as both a means AND an end. You are saying that for the soliton's Life Detection to be Extrasensory Perception it would have to be acquired via Extrasensory Perception, which doesn't really make sense. The page for ESP doesn't specify that it has to be via supernatural means, it merely says "the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user". The truth of the matter is that the Soliton can detect life via Matter signatures; the fact that IT does it via means that could be boiled down into Enhanced Senses is irrelevant, the Soliton STILL senses life and STILL does it via matter signatures; seriously, saying that the Soliton's matter-signature-reading doesn't give the Soliton Extrasensory Perception just because it is not OBTAINED via Extrasensory Perception is a complete paradox: matter-signature-reading is a REQUIREMENT for ESP, it's not obtained via ESP.

But, the second time, where he gets struck by light and the bullets start firing and he gets engulfed in flames, I'm sorry to disagree here, but in this example he very clearly gets overwhelmed, and isnt fine, his body after the fact is completely scorched and blackened, which is something the bullets simply wouldnt do. So resistance to heat is indeed fine, just not on the caliber of a natural lightning bolt, as he was ultimately defeated by one and reduced to a charred corpse with it even being pointed out the irony in a lightning bolt doing him in.

But he isn't "completely scorched and blackened", not at all, he merely has some charring over him, and you clearly see that most of it is already there before the lightning even struck him, and you can also see that he hasn't become any more charred after catching fire, what really does him in are the bullets, hell, he doesn't even scream before those start going off

Like Venom, he subjugated himself to Hypnotherapy to make him think Venom was the real Big Boss too, the hyponotherapy eventually wore off for him though later in the game behind the scenes, but for the time period where Ocelot forced himself to forget about the real Big Boss, he didnt notice anything off at all from what we can gather

But Ocelot expressly talks about doublethink, in order to subconsciously know the truth when the time comes. Hell, there's absolutely no way he didn't notice anything off, the Phantom Cigar itself is a complete giveaway to anyone who knows Big Boss

I'm not putting to high a standard, I'm just not keen on superficially given prefixes that arent warranted. And yes, that's true, but that only really applies to tiers and gaps where said value is actually indeterminate. The value isnt indeterminate though, it's Class G, not any higher, not any lower. We don't add At least ____ to something when the value, no matter how you slice, is still solidly with that tier

But you are tho. The value IS determinate, but it's undeniably a low cap for the characters; the point is that we know that the gap is ridiculous to the point where it might actually be 300x (****, the gap in AP between the 2 bodies is more than 700x, MGS4 at 156 tons and MGR at 120.000 tons), saying that it DEFINITELY IS 300x is an assumption, sure, but so is saying that it DEFINITELY ISN'T, what's sure is that the Class G feat scales to a weaker version of a fodder character and that MGR Raiden is almost a thousand times stronger than MGS4 Raiden in AP. What you are saying is that MGR Raiden cannot possibly be more than 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden, which is an assumption contraddicted by the AP gap, which is more than 2 times bigger than the required gap.

They're barely different though, not nearly enough of a difference to suggest any drastic difference with stats. Especially when no such thing is implied, the differences we do know of aren't even about stats, it's mostly just manned and unmanned utility.

What more difference do you want than being built for completely different reasons and being completely different physically (the unmanned ones don't even have a tail)? The Arsenal RAYs were mass produced quickly to eliminate average human tech, the Marines' were specifically made JUST to kill Metal Gears, how is this not a change that implies a stat difference? They were built to fight completely different targets that aren't even comparable power-wise

it's outright said to be a "REX killer" and made to combat Metal Gears. If RAY lacked the AP to defeat REX's, then it'd be useless, mobility or not, being incapable of harming your target makes you kinda useless as a killer. And for durability, well we see that RAY from MGS2, just with a few adjustments and a nice paintjob can take a huge beating from REX in MGS4, being stomped, slammed, missile'd, laser'd, crunched, etc before going down, and even then, it was mostly intact.

Did you forget about the Radome? RAY could very well just wreck the Radome and kill the person inside without needing to scale to REX' durability. You call RAY's completely different legs "a few adjustments"?

I'm not entirely sure on the Solid being more well trained than Liquid thing, yeah Solid was trained by Big Boss, by Eli had more experience and ****** around with Venom and the Diamond Dogs in his youth. Plus, as we know, the Snakes can pick up on skills with very little exposure, and unlike Solid, he had no issue using CQC or handicapping himself. Honestly, absolutely everything pointed to Liquid winning that fight, but he didn't because Gene's arent everything, which is the whole point of the game. Him being convinced of being inferior would actually help him win, he was absolutely deadset on proving his inferior genetics wrong and wanted be better then his better half and Big Boss, he was going all out with a explicit goal, when in reality, he was already the better, Basically just motivated him to do better

Solid was formally trained by Big Boss, whereas Eli never really had any training in CQC , and didn't show a prowess in it even after being exposed to it multiple times throughout MGS5; all he had was the experience from his White Mamba days and an SAS training, which doesn't even remotely compare to Outer Heaven training. The point of MGS1 isn't that genes aren't everything, it's that you are not bound by your genetics when it comes to what you can do with your life, which is a completely different thing from saying that genes aren't relevant to your combat prowess, because it's shown multiple times throughout the series that yes, the Snakes and Ocelot are just stupidly better than anyone else by default.

Then why be afraid at all? If TMOF lacked the AP, then Ocelot was in literally zero danger there. No reason to worry, hell, why not just go beat the shit out of him yourself? It'd prevent Venom from risk and cease TMOF from being a issue if Ocelot could just facetank his attacks

...because it's a huge, immortal fire guy who can teleport and summon fire animals? And Ocelot is never outright "scared", at most he's panicked and tells Venom to get out of there. The point about Ocelot just going there to punch TMOF is honestly ridiculous.
Ocelot only briefly mentions TMOF as one of the reasons for the whole thing to be moved ahead of schedule, he only says "and the man on fire picked this time to wake up too", which doesn't imply him being a significantly pressing threat. But even then, TMOF being a threat to BB is absolutely irrelevant, at best it demonstrates that he's comparable to him, which is something that was already taken for granted.
Literally the only possible scaling VS has to 8-B is TMOF, and he's stupidly weaker than him, that's not enough to warrant a full tier imo

Because it IR as we define it. What Snakes does is no different than what someone does when they drop a cup, they instinctively go and grab it without really thinking. That's essentially what Snake does. He reacts because he's used to being in situations like that, but looking further, that isn't even the case or what happens

You are still describing a case in which Snake's body automatically reacts, and which is nowhere near as simple as grabbing a falling cup

I guess you could say he has Instinctive Reactions in MGS4, but it's so hyper specific and limited it's not even funny, his body only reacts instinctively when he's attacked with a specific fighting style, that being CQC, and his body reacts by using the real version of that fighting style out of spite

It's not nearly as hyper specific as you claim it to be. CQC is composed of different, real world martial arts, this would mean that wen approached by anyone of these martial arts (and there's like 20 of them) Snake will instinctively react.

Other than that, Solid doesn't got Instinctive Reactions, it only ever occurred in response to bad CQC out of spite and some sort of deep heated hatred for Big Boss and what the world has done to him.

Not really, there's also the case of him dodging Sniper Wolf's sniper round without him possibly knowing beforehand

Maybe, I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally in the event of Liquid and Ocelot, didnt Mantis literally look into Liquid's future at one point off screen?

There's nothing to "take literally", Psycho Mantis literally just said "this is the reason why I cannot read your future, the members FOXHOUND are the same", simple as that. And no, I think that Psycho Mantis simply read his mind, something not even Solid resists, so it's not even a counterfeat. I don't know why you want to take these statements about "losing your future" (which is inherently allegorical as a statement) literally.

Though I'm actually more inclined to say that's just an example of "dont think to hard about it", but either way. I'm still unsure if it can be taken literally and at face value in response to the other characters given the reason why Mantis couldnt read it was meta, and while normally meta reasoning absolutely doesnt effect in-universe reasoning, Mantis as a character is entirely based on meta

but as I said, the meta reason is irrelevant, we are given a canon, in-universe reason by PM himself, and he also says that the same reason applies to Ocelot and Liquid

 

[Twellas]

The RAY thing is far more complex and that's why I devided it from the other arguments.

The first thing to point out is that these are different Speeds for RAY and Ocelot. It's a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it dodged an attack, basically the definition of "combat speed") and a Reactions feat for Ocelot (very minor movement, if any).

In MGS2 Scott Dolph states that RAY has a JTIDS that allows it to autonomously identify targets and fire at them, from this we know that even the Manned RAY has an extremely significant automatic side to it.

but looking at the whole context of the feat I posted, you can see here that the dodge happens right after RAY was knocked to the ground. There is no true way of knowing if Ocelot inputted the jump WHILE RAY was on the ground.
What I'm saying is that Ocelot could have very well just "told" RAY to jump while it was on the ground, and the RAY jumped as soon as it could. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it could explain it, ity would be a sort of "aim dodge" situation for Ocelot that wouldn't inder RAY's feat, since RAY still moved that fast.

The easies solution tho is to take it as both an outlier and a valid feat: an outlier as a Reaction Speed feat for Ocelot (because it's vastly above what Ocelot usually displays) and valid as a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it's RAY's only real speed feat, is goes well with the idea of it being significantly faster than REX).

And with Snake and REX, I'm just gonna say that you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief and, as you said about Psycho Mantis, "dont think to hard about it". Snake clearly had help from Otacon in piloting the thing, to the point where Otacon had control over every internal function of REX. If Otacon had enough control over REX to make it significantly faster and to unlock an entire combat-program, it's not at all a stretch that he helped Snake out in the moving department.

as to the scaling to the unamnned units, again, Ocelot's model is modified significantly and was made to counter REX, including his laser, the unmanned units would at best scale to "possibly"

And even if it was due to an AI, wouldnt matter, because Solidus could blitz AI controlled RAY units in MGS2, unless you want to argue that even the AI used between RAY's in MGS2 and the hypothetical AI Ocelot may of implemented aren't at all comparable eithe

Except the unmanned RAY units were being effected by the worm planted by Snake and the crew, so they were nowhere near at thir average "mental capacity" during their confrontation with Solidus, hell, most of them don't even move and just stay there, twitching

if you're saying Ocelot's MGR was modified to have Unmanned unit's body parts, that would actually support the two RAY models being not that different if at all, as the RAY parts taken from the Arsenal Units faired just as well against REX's attacks as the Marine RAY body parts did

It's the same model as the unmenned RAY's, but there's no indication that they are ACTUALLY the ones used by the MGS2 RAYs

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly, I think it'd be a good idea if we put this speed discussion to the side, I think we're close enough to a mostly unanimous decision for everything else, with the exception of LS

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, for the time being it's fine, but It's probably the most important change in the CRT, so we'll have to pick it back up once we've settled everything else

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree, it definitely needs to be addressed, but it'd be a lot more straightforward if we got everything else outta the way first.

I feel I should mention I'm neutral-against it BTW, and neutral towards the LS

 

[Twellas]

I genuinely think you are being way too scrupulous about the LS, as if I want to get Raiden from class G to class T merely by being "a lot stronger than before", which is not the case at all.
Is the Class G feat a low cap? Yes, unndeniably so. Could MGR Raiden be 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden? Yes, his AP is 769 times higher, it's not at all a stretch to say that his LS increased along with it, maybe not by 769 times, but still around the realm of 300.
I honestly think this is more than enough to qualify for a "at least" rating

 

[Armorchompy]

I meant the Snakes LS, I'm straight up against the Raiden LS. 300 times is way too big a gap, even if Raiden's AP growth was a thousand times bigger than it already is I wouldn't agree with it, it's simply too much speculation. Not that I disagree that Raiden's LS is that high up, but VS Battles doesn't work this way

 

[Twellas]

but... that IS how VS Battles works, ****, Standard Cyborg Body Raiden has an "At Least 8-A" rating just by being "stronger than before", you 2 are simply putting a weirdly high standard to the prefixes, you are treating as if it was a whole tier jump, it's simply an "at least" to indicate that MGR Raiden is much stronger than that. And there is barely any speculation in saying that a character whose AP is 700 times higher than another's would be comparatively stronger in terms of LS.

Overall, the opposition as a whole here is being weirdly strict with some stuff, I've never quite seen anyone nitpick abilities and tiers this much; not an insult, just an observation

 

[Armorchompy]

I guess it makes sense, I think "At least" is just very oddly defined overall so I'll withdraw outta this piece of discussion.

 

[Twellas]

I mean, it's not really oddly defined at all. If we know that a character scales massively above a feat we can put "at least", the character doesn't have to possibly be into the following tier or anything of the sort. As I've already said, the wiki defines it as "to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate": MGR Raiden's exact LS value is indeterminate (we don't have a calc'd feat) and the best feat he had before that is complete fodder to him, hence the "at least". Very simple

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, true enough.

 

[Newendigo]

I was out for a while now, needed to do a bit of research.

@Chariot190

Comparing them with Mario and Krillin because they are humans is a no go-. Krillin get's superhuman feats because a magic thing named that allows normal humans to fly and blow mountains. Marion gets superhuman feats because his franchise doesn't care about making sense, in the same vein as Bugs Bunny cuts a country for pure comedy.

You should link a lot of those feats to have more context about them, from that throw away Tier 8 calc, the mechas and withstanding being crushed in hundreds of tons. From what you mentioned:

The recoil of a tank is 9-B.

Using the M1 Abrams as example, the power of a tank would be around 9-B+ to 9-A using the main cannon.

Tomahawks cruise missiles generate 2.5 Gigajoules (The profile has a typo) which is like half a ton, 8-C.

Now for LS, the avarage warhead weights 1100 kilograms, Class 5. Which is like 9-C if you were to convert Kg to newtons and newtons to joules (Granted, I'm not the best when it comes to calcs)

Hundreds of kilograms is just Class 1.

If there are more feats, you can link them (Please link them) here, but none of this even remotely reaches the current Stats being used.

Also, going by some gameplays, Big Boss constantly needed to attack weakpoints like their head, it would pretty pointless if he was 8-B as he could literally maul them with his fists alone until only the importants parts were left.

 

[Twellas]

As I said man, Psycho Mantis alone has 3 tier 8 feats and one could very well be tier 7: He burned his home village to the ground as a kid, destroyed a plane (still as a kid) and is the most powerful esp, more powerful than those who can cause natural disasters (earthquakes, hurricanes, storms, tsunamis, that sort of stuff).

Volgin can not only apply a charge of 10 million volts on his enemies (the og 8-B feat) but can also tank said voltage. Volgin can casually punch a hole through the Shagohod, which tanked this explosion without a single scratch on it.

Liquid Ocelot, far from his prime at this point, casually dented Outer Haven, which is a version of Arsenal Gear and as such comparable to the MGS2 Arsenal Gear, which did this without suffering a scratch, the same Outer Haven tanked artillery fire from the USS Missouri without even remotely being phased.

Most of these feats are performed either casually or by characters whose power is lower than their peak

 

[Twellas]

The idea that MG characters are "consistently displayed as barely enhanced humans" is baffling and comes mostly from the trite and old argument of "but bullets hurt them!" as if guns in MG weren't shown to be much more powerful than real life ones and as if it's not common practice for bullets to hurt people who should shrug them off dura-wise (just look at Spiderman ffs, or ******* DANTE FROM DMC, he's ******* Universal+ and still gets penetrated by bullets)

 

[Chariot190]

>I think you are very much confusing Extrasensory perception, putting it as both a means AND an end. You are saying that for the soliton's Life Detection to be Extrasensory Perception it would have to be acquired via Extrasensory Perception, which doesn't really make sense. The page for ESP doesn't specify that it has to be via supernatural means, it merely says "the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user". The truth of the matter is that the Soliton can detect life via Matter signatures; the fact that IT does it via means that could be boiled down into Enhanced Senses is irrelevant, the Soliton STILL senses life and STILL does it via matter signatures; seriously, saying that the Soliton's matter-signature-reading doesn't give the Soliton Extrasensory Perception just because it is not OBTAINED via Extrasensory Perception is a complete paradox: matter-signature-reading is a REQUIREMENT for ESP, it's not obtained via ESP.

I'm going it be blunt here. It isn't extrasensory perception. Drop it. The soliton radar can sense life, but it doesn't sense life, it sense biological reactions through the use of electromagnetic waves. The page as a concept only applies to supernatural methods, otherwise it's just enhanced senses or something else. It is quite literally, as a concept, not something that applies. When the page says the ability to detect energy, matter and the like, it's talking about energy in the sense of something like Ki or the soul and matter through the use of supernatural methodology. You're saying that what the Soliton does actually being Enhanced Senses means that it can't be Extrasensory, but no, that's exactly what it means. It isn't Extrasensory, what it does isn't extrasensory, the mechanics behind it isn't extrasensory, as the end of the day it isn't extrasensory. just because it can result in a function similar to something extrasensory perception can do, does not make it extrasensory perception. To list it as such is literally wrong. I'm not compromising on this, saying it's Extrasensory Perception is a blatant lie. And no, it doesn't do via matter signatures, it does via sonar with EMP pulses, that falls under enhanced senses, not extrasensory senses. Honestly, this feels a bit like when you were trying to give Deconstruction to The Boss for disassembling a gun because both Deconstruction and taking it apart are function result in "the gun being reduced to smaller pieces". The Soliton Radar may be able to sense life, but you're ignoring, how, why, the mechanics and everything else to try and treat it as something it, in reality, is not.

>But he isn't "completely scorched and blackened", not at all, he merely has some charring over him, and you clearly see that most of it is already there before the lightning even struck him, and you can also see that he hasn't become any more charred after catching fire, what really does him in are the bullets, hell, he doesn't even scream before those start going off

He kinda is, he's visually extremely darkened, and blackened. Some of it is, but not all of it. We don't give resistance to a heat if said heat proceeds to char skin and the like. Yes, you don't need to link it for me to see, I can check myself and have done so. The bullets obviously hurt him, and may have done him in, but to say the lightning didn't char him is dishonest. Especially when Snake immediately confirms and says, literally not even five seconds later "Heh, Fried by a bolt of lightning". Not to mention the records pf his death and the like attribute said death to being struck by lightning and fried to death. And I should mention, resistance to lightning and electricity may not actually work to begin with, as Volgin explicitly wears a rubber suit.

>But Ocelot expressly talks about doublethink, in order to subconsciously know the truth when the time comes. Hell, there's absolutely no way he didn't notice anything off, the Phantom Cigar itself is a complete giveaway to anyone who knows Big Boss

Yes, subconsciously he may of knew. But, consciously? On the surface? He didn't, Consciously, Ocelot didn't notice anything drastic. The Phantom Cigar only works for people if they know he doesn't actually like it. Big Boss prefers real cigars, but him not liking the phantom one is something that only comes to light after the invention of the thing and it's kinda something Big Boss would need to inform others of. You just don't assume "I bet Big Boss dislikes Phantom Cigars and would refuse to use them", without being told by the man himself. Though it doesn't matter, it was clearly not something Ocelot noticed as being a large enough discrepency.

>But you are tho. The value IS determinate, but it's undeniably a low cap for the characters; the point is that we know that the gap is ridiculous to the point where it might actually be 300x (****, the gap in AP between the 2 bodies is more than 700x, MGS4 at 156 tons and MGR at 120.000 tons), saying that it DEFINITELY IS 300x is an assumption, sure, but so is saying that it DEFINITELY ISN'T, what's sure is that the Class G feat scales to a weaker version of a fodder character and that MGR Raiden is almost a thousand times stronger than MGS4 Raiden in AP. What you are saying is that MGR Raiden cannot possibly be more than 300 times stronger than MGS4 Raiden, which is an assumption contraddicted by the AP gap, which is more than 2 times bigger than the required gap.

The other body is also much faster and thus would have a higher Kinetic Force, AP and strength are linked, but when massive speed increases come into play, the connection gets skewed heavily, especially when Raiden's AP is kinetic, his speed likely plays a huge part in the increase, meaning the AP gap simply doesn't help to suggest an explicit gap of such a high degree. Like it or not, we don't upscale like that, unless given a statement. As I mentioned before Zelda literally just got downgraded because characters upscaled to higher tiers based on being literally thousands of times stronger, in some cases millions and billions. Unfortunately, we don't do this, Raiden's feat is to low into Class G to warrant anything higher, and all the feats done in MGR are also only Class M to Class G, nothing suggests a possibly above Class G. Put simply, they're all still Class G, a much higher degree of it, sure, without a doubt, but still only just Class G, if you think I'm having to high of a standard, so be it, but I'm not keen on putting unwarranted text onto a profile. Raiden in MGS4 is Class G, Raiden in MGR for all intent and purposes, is still Class G, it isn't indeterminate, because we know that he's still simply just Class G, what we don't know is how much exactly, but the tier and gap is far to large to suggest anything other than a simple flat Class G.

>What more difference do you want than being built for completely different reasons and being completely different physically (the unmanned ones don't even have a tail)? The Arsenal RAYs were mass produced quickly to eliminate average human tech, the Marines' were specifically made JUST to kill Metal Gears, how is this not a change that implies a stat difference? They were built to fight completely different targets that aren't even comparable power-wise

What more do I want? An actual statement, proper lore surrounding the subject, evidence that isn't based on conjecture. They were built with different intents, to kill REX and to protect Arsenal, but that's literally the only difference given, and it isn't even said with the notion of them being different in statistics, it's just said to explain why they're there. And them being mass produced means nothing, because the Marine Unit was going to be mass produced to kill REX Units popping up all over the globe. Ie, being mass produced isn't an indication of anything as it was outright said that RAY was going to be mass produced to kill REX's all over. And the RAY's being used to protect Arsenal and thus only designed with the intent of fighting basic human weaponry is an assumption on your part, when every single nation including random backwater ones all have their own personal Metal Gear at this point in time, Metal Gear REX is apart of basic human weaponry that would need to be accounted for against attacks on Arsenal Gear, as everyone has one. But, it honestly doesn't matter, you're simply guessing they have drastically different statistics, but that's it, guessing. It's not said anywhere, it's not even actually implied. And given the RAY Unit was planned to be mass produced for killing REX, it doesn't change much, actually, I'm pretty sure that what happened was that The Patriots simply went ahead with the plan to mass produce that RAY but used it for a different purpose, nothing more, nothing less, they're all still effectively the same Mecha and technology, just repurposed.

>Did you forget about the Radome? RAY could very well just wreck the Radome and kill the person inside without needing to scale to REX' durability. You call RAY's completely different legs "a few adjustments"?

Except we know that's not what it means. And you forget that other REX Units all over the globe wouldn't have a purposefully implemented weakness done by an Otaku who likes video games and anime and thus added a weak point to be tongue and cheek. We are told, outright, that RAY can kill REX, not the user. Everything we are told, numerous times at that, says that RAY can actively kill REX, ignoring one can't kill a machine, it's obvious what it means, RAY can cause enough damage to REX to destroy it. And besides, we outright know it can harm REX because we see them fight and RAY is fully well and capable of inflicting damage upon REX with little issue, the only issue being REX can harm it too. And comparatively, different legs to its body is one adjustment, so it's even less than a few.

>Solid was formally trained by Big Boss, whereas Eli never really had any training in CQC , and didn't show a prowess in it even after being exposed to it multiple times throughout MGS5;

Then we need to remove that ability from the profiles if you want to argue Eli couldn't pick up on CQC.

>all he had was the experience from his White Mamba days and an SAS training, which doesn't even remotely compare to Outer Heaven training. The point of MGS1 isn't that genes aren't everything, it's that you are not bound by your genetics when it comes to what you can do with your life, which is a completely different thing from saying that genes aren't relevant to your combat prowess, because it's shown multiple times throughout the series that yes, the Snakes and Ocelot are just stupidly better than anyone else by default.

Honestly, that's another assumption, we don't know the details of Outer Heaven training, in the vain, every single random soldier at Outer Heaven would be > Liquid in skill (Which then goes ahead and confirms that Venom > MGS1 Liquid and by proxy Genomes as he was evidently the most skilled person at Outer Heaven at the time). What you mean to say is that it doesnt compare to direct training by Big Boss, which is likely true. And, no that's actually exactly what it means. The point of MGS1 is that genes may set the foundation for your life, but they don't decide everything, you arent bound to them, they dont control who and what you entirely, you can break free from your genetic fate if you truly try, etc. Which is exactly what happened. Solid, despite being the generically inferior clone explicitly, still managed to overwhelm and defeat Liquid on multiple occasions despite being at an overwhelming disadvantage in every single one, if genes were the end all deciding factor, Solid would have got his ass kicked by Liquid, the genetically superior clone who had a massive vendetta, but he lost. Snake and Ocelot by default are better then everyone, but that doesn't mean simply having better genes makes you guaranteed above someone else, it's a plot point with Raiden (and he wasn't even the only candidate, others were chosen as possible subjects, Raiden being picked had nothing to do with him being better at fighting but rather his relationship with Solidus and the fact he opts to ignore the past). Though, in regards to the Liquid Vs. Rookie Solid skill, it's moot. Liquid could contend, albeit lose, to an experienced ten year vet Solid, MGS1 Solid>>>>>>>>>MG1. If Liquid is <<MGS1 Solid, he'd be >>MG1 Solid. MGS1 Solid>>Liquid>>MG1 Solid.

>...because it's a huge, immortal fire guy who can teleport and summon fire animals? And Ocelot is never outright "scared", at most he's panicked and tells Venom to get out of there. The point about Ocelot just going there to punch TMOF is honestly ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, it's me being hyperbolic. My point was if TMOF wasn't a threat, Ocelot could have dealt with it himself, why wouldn't he? He knew about TMOF, he knew he was coming, he could have easily been prepared, but he didn't instead he choose to flee, why? Well obviously not because he could single handily beat TMOF without much issue and zero risk of endangerment. But as said, I'll check the game to see what happens if Ocelot is attacked and the like.

>Ocelot only briefly mentions TMOF as one of the reasons for the whole thing to be moved ahead of schedule, he only says "and the man on fire picked this time to wake up too", which doesn't imply him being a significantly pressing threat. But even then, TMOF being a threat to BB is absolutely irrelevant, at best it demonstrates that he's comparable to him, which is something that was already taken for granted.

It's actually one of the biggest reasons, it forced them to move ahead of schedule, if he wasn't a thing, they wouldn't have been in that much of a rush. That was what pushed them over the edge really. TMOF is a threat to Big Boss, it's undeniable. If anything Big Boss is weaker than TMOF as well by virtue of him being Volgin on steroids, who could break Snake's bones while alive. TMOF>Volgin>Both Venom and Big Boss.

>Literally the only possible scaling VS has to 8-B is TMOF, and he's stupidly weaker than him, that's not enough to warrant a full tier imo

We actually don't know if he's stupidly weaker than him, in all direct physical encounters with TMOF, nothing really happens, Venom gets knocked over, and that's usually the extent of it. In regards to the second time, Venom literally let's it happen. And not really, if Venom, under any circumstance takes a hit from TMOF and lives, he's 8-B, given TMOF is over 2x into 8-B. And it would also discredit even the need for a likely, if he tanks a hit, then that's a flat out rating. If we use gameplay, then Venom can tank a hit from TMOF. Thus, Venom scales directly. And using gameplay here by all accounts should be fine, it's a game that has literally hundreds of dialogue and statements in regards to actions that happen in gameplay.

>You are still describing a case in which Snake's body automatically reacts, and which is nowhere near as simple as grabbing a falling cup

It's actually the exact same thing. When you knock a cup over filled with a liquid, you go to grab it thought thinking, automatically. You don't think about it, you just do. It is by definition Instinctive Reaction, but not to the degree it would be an ability listed.

>It's not nearly as hyper specific as you claim it to be. CQC is composed of different, real world martial arts, this would mean that wen approached by anyone of these martial arts (and there's like 20 of them) Snake will instinctively react.

That's literally not what it means, otherwise Snake would be doing CQC in every other day by accident, even though we know for a fact he hadn't used in in 19 years. CQC isn't compromised of different fighting styles, it's based upon on a bunch, but it's not literally just said styles. We are told Snake only ever used CQC because the CQC he was attacked with was a bad version of it. It's explained, by he himself, why his body does that and in what circumstance, if the circumstances dont align with that, he wouldn't use CQC automatically. Those other fighting styles aren't CQC even if CQC has some similarities with it, especially when it has to be a pale imitation in order to force Solid to use it.

>Not really, there's also the case of him dodging Sniper Wolf's sniper round without him possibly knowing beforehand

Not concrete enough, that could literally just be him dodging it normally. And in canon, he failed to dodge.

>There's nothing to "take literally", Psycho Mantis literally just said "this is the reason why I cannot read your future, the members FOXHOUND are the same", simple as that. And no, I think that Psycho Mantis simply read his mind, something not even Solid resists, so it's not even a counterfeat. I don't know why you want to take these statements about "losing your future" (which is inherently allegorical as a statement) literally.

You're kinda arguing against yourself here, if we don't take these statements literally then there wouldn't be any resistance in the first place. If you saying Mantis simply read his mind in reference to Liquid, I'm unsure, I'll need to check if it was mind reading or futuresight specifically, if it's the latter, obviously it wouldnt apply. And I'm cautious because the reason why Solid's future couldn't be read is a meta 4th wall breaking reason, which normally, wouldnt matter, but when it's about the abilities of a 4th wall breaking meta character, it becomes a tad different.
>but as I said, the meta reason is irrelevant, we are given a canon, in-universe reason by PM himself, and he also says that the same reason applies to Ocelot and LiquidOr he could be simply comparing Solid to them, not specifically saying they are literally 100% don't have a set future, because they all did, every single FOXHOUND's future couldn't be changed, opposed to Solid who had multiple endings with Meryl. As said, normally this doesnt matter, but it's Mantis, his whole thing is being meta, and he's aware of it himself. As such I'm cautious, but as said, I'm neutral on it, I won't argue it further as it's redundant, if others agree I can get onboard with it and you can count me to it too.

>The first thing to point out is that these are different Speeds for RAY and Ocelot. It's a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it dodged an attack, basically the definition of "combat speed") and a Reactions feat for Ocelot (very minor movement, if any).

And? Whether it's reactions or combat speed, not my point, my point is that it would scale to Ocelot's reactions as well. And it wouldn't be minor, it'd be enough to

>In MGS2 Scott Dolph states that RAY has a JTIDS that allows it to autonomously identify targets and fire at them, from this we know that even the Manned RAY has an extremely significant automatic side to it.

That's literally just a lockon, we have those IRL. And we know fir a fact Ocelot can manually control, and does, the RAY Unit, we literally see him press buttons and shit at times. Also, it being able to lock-on to targets has nothing to do with it's movement which is explicitly manually controlled by Ocelot and given the feat is about it moving, you can see where this lock-on system is not relevant, it's not actually changing anything.

>but looking at the whole context of the feat I posted, you can see here that the dodge happens right after RAY was knocked to the ground. There is no true way of knowing if Ocelot inputted the jump WHILE RAY was on the ground.
What I'm saying is that Ocelot could have very well just "told" RAY to jump while it was on the ground, and the RAY jumped as soon as it could. Yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it could explain it, ity would be a sort of "aim dodge" situation for Ocelot that wouldn't inder RAY's feat, since RAY still moved that fast.

In order for this to be true and not scale to Ocelot, Ocelot would have had to guess he'd be knocked down the ground, input a jump command ahead of time, get knocked down to the ground, and then jump. That's obviously not how it works or how it happens. To remind you, this feat takes place in gameplay, the same scaling applies to REX's movement, which is explicitly controlled by Snake, along with every single one of RAY's movements, controlled by Ocelot. Hell, Ocelot and Snake can physically move while this feat is happening (it's hard to tell because Snake is mostly obscured), but either way. And it wouldn't be an aimdodge either, because it isn't like things suddenly slow down to a crawl while that feat is going on, the speed REX and RAY move while dodging lasers is literally the same speed they move while dodging and attacking throughout the whole fight, and we know for a fact Ocelot and Snake are manually dodging in response to each other's attacks, not ahead of time.

>The easies solution tho is to take it as both an outlier and a valid feat: an outlier as a Reaction Speed feat for Ocelot (because it's vastly above what Ocelot usually displays) and valid as a Combat Speed feat for RAY (it's RAY's only real speed feat, is goes well with the idea of it being significantly faster than REX).

It isnt though, that's simply being dishonest. If it scales to one, it scales to both. By virtue of it being above what Ocelot usually displays, it's also above what Ray usually displays, because characters like Raiden, Solidus and the like can consistently fight Ray units or react to them. Hell, Solid Snake literally swims fast enough to place a tracker on the MARINE Ray, after it began to take off.

>And with Snake and REX, I'm just gonna say that you are gonna have to suspend your disbelief and, as you said about Psycho Mantis, "dont think to hard about it". Snake clearly had help from Otacon in piloting the thing, to the point where Otacon had control over every internal function of REX. If Otacon had enough control over REX to make it significantly faster and to unlock an entire combat-program, it's not at all a stretch that he helped Snake out in the moving department.

False analogy, we are explicitly told, multiple times, that Solid Snake himself is manually controlling the movement, he's the person dodging, not Otacon, not MKII, we are told this explicitly it is Snake who decides when to dodge and when to stop dodging. This is him, thus, any dodge done by REX is actually done by Solid. It doesn't even matter if it's a stretch or not, because it's simply wrong. Solid did it, not anything else. At this point you're hiding the outlier and making way to many assumptions that are either completely conjecture or outright contradicted by what we're told in game.

>as to the scaling to the unamnned units, again, Ocelot's model is modified significantly and was made to counter REX, including his laser, the unmanned units would at best scale to "possibly"

This has nothing to do with physicals, it's about Solidus straight up blitzing the RAY AI, the thing you're trying to say Ocelot had implemented (which is a complete assumption on your part not stated anywhere)

>Except the unmanned RAY units were being effected by the worm planted by Snake and the crew, so they were nowhere near at thir average "mental capacity" during their confrontation with Solidus, hell, most of them don't even move and just stay there, twitching

Except we actually see what's happening from a RAY's POV at one point, Solidus blitzes them all, they were being effected by the worm cluster, but it doesn't change the fact they were all blitzed by Solidus. And that's ignoring Raiden could fight off multiple RAY's at once for awhile before the worm cluster began taking effect.
-------------
To summarize.
Soliton isn't Extrasensory Perception, it can result in a similar function, but it isn't. Treating its as such is simply wrong.
Volgin's resistance to natural lightning based heat I still disagree on, some resistance to heat is fine for fire, but not lightning, as it was confirmed he was fried by it, and we see added charring to his corpse. Lightning resistance in general is a tad sus even, as his suit is rubber, though, he would still get a resistance anyway even if it's just because of his suit, the reason why it's possible may be different but it's still a thing so that's fine.
I still think Venom is just solidly 8-B, he can tank attacks from TMOF, he's weaker yes, but so is Big Boss. Venom is obviously still below Big Boss and TMOF, but tanking hits from an 8-B is still 8-B, no need for a likely, he's just on the lower end is all.
Instinctive Reaction is hyperspecific, I stand by these, Solid himself explains how and why it's a thing that happened. He can have it, but it'd be highly limited untill I go and look for a better example.
Mantis precog resistance and all that fun stuff I'm neutral on, if enough people agree I have no issue with it being added I suppose, so no need to further that.
The scaling differences between Marine and Arsenal Ray being different doesn't hold up, it's based entirely on assumptions, while a few seem reasonable, the opposite is true, and in my opinion, likely the canon assumption as them being weaker is ever actually said and being mass produced isn't indictive of anything as that was the plan the whole time.
Ray is called a REX killer because he can harm REX, and we see him do it, mobility helps edge REX out, but RAY has the stats to contend with REX as well.
For Rel +.
Regardless, I don't care if we treat them as Rel+ or not. But you're making way to many assumptions to try and say they aren't, if you have to make this many assumptions to come to such a conclusion, chances are that conclusion is faulty, Occam's Razer exists for a reason, trying to create a scaling chain based on conjecture as to why it wouldn't be doesnt work, some assumptions are fine but this amount is ludicrous, and some aren't even true like Solid not being the person who's dodging RAY, as Otacon outright says he is the person doing it and to keep up the good work essentially. And there's even more direct scaling to the mecha's that have yet to be mentioned, it's simply not possible to say that one is that fast but the others aren't, they have comparable speed, at least in reaction and bursts, that scale between.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm agreeing with Chariot here. Also, what's the huge issue with RAY reacting to the Laser?

 

[Chariot190]

>Comparing them with Mario and Krillin because they are humans is a no go-. Krillin get's superhuman feats because a magic thing named that allows normal humans to fly and blow mountains. Marion gets superhuman feats because his franchise doesn't care about making sense, in the same vein as Bugs Bunny cuts a country for pure comedy.

Are you really trying to say because they're human it doesnt count? I'm going to be blunt here but you're literally arguing out of fallacy of disbelief, Krillin is human, Mario is human, both are actually superhuman though because of reasons and in somes cases, no reason. That's it, doesnt matter why. MGS characters are also superhuman, why? Doesnt matter why, they are, they have feats, thus they're that level. Do you actually want me to give you the few dozen thousand examples of normal humans being super strong literally just because we have on this wiki? Hell here's one, Ash from Pokemon, he's a blatant superhuman with zero justification given in universe, he just is, he has the feats and thus he's superhuman. Metal Gear is borderline anime of a game, I seriously hope you aren't using the argument of "it's kinda realistic" to say all feats are wrong.

>The recoil of a tank is 9-B.

Yeah? I wasn't using that as a AP feat though, but rather a lifting strength feat, an old withered Snake is completely unfazed by the recoil of a weapon that is on par with a tank's recoil. He doesn't move even a inch and can fire it in succession like nothing, That's a lifting feat, the recoil of a tank is something like Class 10-50, and he's completely unfazed and doesn't move an inch despite being the person yielding said weapon with his bare hands. Ergo, even Snake at his weakest has lifting strength feats that are hilariously superhuman.

>Using the M1 Abrams as example, the power of a tank would be around 9-B+ to 9-A using the main cannon.

Wasn't talking about AP, the AP of it is irrelevant to lifting strength.

>Tomahawks cruise missiles generate 2.5 Gigajoules (The profile has a typo) which is like half a ton, 8-C.

Yes, an old dying Ocelot who was physically beaten by an old dying snake, who just walked through a chamber that literally changes humans into vapor and can shortcircuit machinery, who shouldnt even be able to stand and is constantly going into lapses hits visually much harder than tomahawk missiles at his worst, now imagine him in his prime. Them literally dying and after taking extreme damage are above military grade missiles and can dent super high tech steel from an impenetrable fortress.

>Now for LS, the avarage warhead weights 1100 kilograms, Class 5. Which is like 9-C if you were to convert Kg to newtons and newtons to joules (Granted, I'm not the best when it comes to calcs)

it's actually Class 1, but my example with Volgin was that literally everyone casually does Olympian feats like literally nothing, so trivial that it isnt even touched upon because everyone can do it with the effort of picking up a tissue. My point with that one isnt that "hey that's a good feat" but rather "theyre very explicitly superhuman even at the lowest possible degree and as such insinuation they arent superhuman falls short".

As for being crushed by hundreds of tons, yeah that's how much the mecha's weigh? REX is 505ton, Peace Walker is 500, ZEKE is, well I don't know, but probably around the same, likely less but evidently still around the 300-400 ton mark , And multiple characters can lift them like Big Boss and Gray Fox? Big Boss and Gray Fox have multiple feats of benching mecha that have a base weight of Class K+, and in one case Class M. It happens enough time and consistently at that to where it's funnily enough the most consistent feat and reoccurring lifting strength feat. The Cocoon feat also doubles as a 0.8 ton feat.

Also I pointed out how Big Boss' weakest weapon is 1.2m volts, which is High 8-C. And rookie Snake punching out a prison wall to get into Gray Fox's cell is another nice bit feat Snake did on his first mission, early on at that. And before you say it's only 9-B, when I say he punched out a wall I mean like that entire wall from end to end just about went poof.

Also I guess Mantis has 3 tier 8 feats too. TMOF has a good feat as well if I recall, I'll check that one out later.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm agreeing with Chariot here. Also, what's the huge issue with RAY reacting to the Laser?

That if we scale it to RAY, that it would have to scale to Ocelot and co as well for consistently being able to react and fight the Metal Gears, plus, Ocelot was manually controlling Ray when he did said feat so it's just as much an Ocelot reaction feat as it is a Ray movement feat. And Solid in that same fight was stated to be manually dodging and reacting to RAY's attacks and moves. (Plus the feat happens in gameplay, RAY moving there isnt any faster than Rex or Ray moving elsewhere in the fight, and Snake and Ocelot can react just fine). Is it an outlier? Maybe. Is it usable? Don't know. Not my concern, I'm only saying that it's both or neither, can't cherry pick here.

Though I should add onto the above, in regards to the MARINE and Arsenal RAY models, it's explicitly said that the Arsenal Units are based directly on the MARINE unit, they're effectively upgrades if anything, the same mecha but newer tech and AI, explicitly said to have used the marine RAY as a base for their design.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Then just bump Ocelot and Snake's Reaction time. This is Older and Weaker versions of them, so they can't scale because...?

 

[Chariot190]

Then just bump Ocelot and Snake's Reaction time. This is Older and Weaker versions of them, so they can't scale because...?

Don't know, maybe it's an outlier, maybe it isn't. (Doesn't Snake react to the laser in MGS1 actually?). As said it's 100% not my intent to argue if it should or shouldn't be used or implemented, just that it's both the mecha and super soldier cast, or none at all. Can't pick and choose here.

 

[Twellas]

goodamn timezones, i gotta sleep now, will answer tomorrow

 

[Chariot190]

I looked up exactly what MKII did to REX fyi, all MKII did was increase REX's throughput, which obviously doesn't change or effect what Solid was doing.

It's also said in MGS1 Codec that REX, once the radome is destroyed must be controlled manually, which is obviously what Snake was forced to do in 4, increasing REX's throughput wouldn't change that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, I kinda find myself mostly agreeing with Chariot as well (If only it were that simple for jojo lol)

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, I kinda find myself mostly agreeing with Chariot as well (If only it were that simple for jojo lol)

The JoJo CRT actually is gonna be pretty simple. Me and Dargoo have talked extensively off site about it. The scaling is gonna end up way more concrete and the we have a nice selection of feats to scale off to give a general consistent scahling chain. Only real issue is early Part 4 in regards to scaling. There's a few things left for me and him to discuss still but I'm kinda just waiting on a few things before finishing up our discussion and posting the CRT.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mostly meant more minor things in versus debates we've had, I've heard far hotter takes about JoJo lol. By the way, do notify me when that starts.

 

[00potato]

Hey is this a JoJo reference in my metal gear discussion.
It’s more likely then I thought.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Twellas]

Ok first off, I think it's best if we leave the RAY-laser thing be for a while, let's first find an agreement on all the other stuff, and THEN let's focus just on that, alright?

It's also said in MGS1 Codec that REX, once the radome is destroyed must be controlled manually, which is obviously what Snake was forced to do in 4, increasing REX's throughput wouldn't change that.

tho i gotta correct you here, that's not what the Radome does is give the pilot information on the surrounding area, Otacon calls it a "sensor", the word itsfelf is a combination of "radar" and "dome". While yes, Otacon does state that destroying the radome REX "won't be able to use its electronic equipment", what he's referring to is the sensors and all the equipment dedicated to giving visual cues to the driver, which is why Liquid had to open the cockpit, so he could see what he was doing and where he was going, since REX had gone blind

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, let's just work by sections, and come to a conclusion about Part 1 first.

 

[Armorchompy]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the current points of discussion are:

Part 1

What the soliton radar gives:

Snake's Instinctive Reactions:

Precognition stuff for FOXHOUND

The degree of Volgin's heat resistance (I don't think this one's that important tbh, he'd still get the ability regardless)

Part 2

Not much, surprisingly

Part 3

The Boss' intelligence, and how it scales to PW

Venom Snake's tiering (And Quiet's by result)

"At least Class G"

Metal Gear Keys

RAY Dura and AP

Part 4

RAY dodging Electron Laser, and its scaling/outlierness (To be discussed later)

Part 5

Nothing, I think

Part 6

The importance of Genes in skill, Venom's skill level compared to the Genome Soldiers, and overall scaling.

 

[Twellas]

the fake death pill stuff I'm neutral, fine with it being poison manip

yes

no, already settled

already settled

yes

because he's still BB's clone. not perfect but close enough to scale to such a relevant physical characteristic

yes

yes

also discussing Venom's tier and whether or not the unmanned units scale to Ocelot's

 

[Armorchompy]

Edited, but that was just the part 1 stuff, think I'm gonna edit in everything else now actually

 

[Armorchompy]

Is this accurate?

 

[Twellas]

yup

 

[Twellas]

Wait, now that I think of it, there are almost no Knowledgeable Members debating here besides me, would be great if some joined

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, you can DM them. In fact, I think that'd be necessaary.