Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[SpookyShadow]

not necessarily meant for combat is still a bit questionable.

I mean, it DID dent Outer Haven's surface. It's pretty darn strong. Also nah, Gray Fox is weaker than MGR fodders. Only his sword is just OP in the game.

 

[Twellas]

Stop downplaying the importance of the scene, you are doing the game a disservice by doing so.

I am not "downplaying" the importance of the scene, you are overplaying it. If i really wanted to downplay it I wouldn't even recognize it as a counter or something like this. What I'm doing is putting things into perspective, because going with this ONE scene basically causes us to gloss over or find stupid reasons to ignore some legit feats.

Armorchompy had brought up the fact you could run over the TMOF in gameplay, which was then countered by a lore cutscene.

no, that's not what happened. Armor brought up a scene of TMOF supposedly getting ran over IN LORE and I countered by showing how IN LORE what he was saying was incorrect: he was saying that TMOF got pinned down and couldn't lift a tank, but I pointed out how soon later TMOF gets briefly stunned by a smaller vehicle ramming into him, so I showed him that it couldn't have been that TMOF stayed under there due to the TANK being too much to lift, but this is all beside the point, which is that I DIDN'T use lore to disprove gameplay.

Are said cutscenes of the Snakes lifting mecha which haven't been brought up ever?

ZEKE, Cocoon and possibly Peace Walker itself. I'm of course talking about Naked, not Solid.

You are blatantly ignoring the context of those scenes and it's ridiculous that you will continue to bring them up.

No, you are blatantly trying to bend the context to fit your idea.

Throwing out words like headcanon means nothing because I haven't conjured up some make believe story but have used the game itself to contradict you.

NOTHING implies that Gray Fox was nerfing himself, literally nothing, what you did is a step above literal headcanon just because it's sorta based on a true fact, Gray Fox's deathwish, but it takes this single fact and stretches it beyond all logic.

 

[Twellas]

h, I misunderstood. But Gray Fox is a different beast from Ocelot- he's a full body conversion said to be comparable to MGRR rando enemies

uuuuuuhhhhhhhhh no, he doesn't, I have no idea were you got this, but Gray Fox doesn't scale to MGR's fodder, no MGS character scales to the MGS fodder. And Gray Fox's wasn't a "full body conversion", it was literally just an exoskeleton that couldn't be taken off, a far cry from actual cyborgs, let alone the CNT beasts from MGR.

 

[Chariot190]

He also isnt even a full body, he's a corpse tossed into a exosuit. An exosuit that becomes kinda normal as time goes on. Gray Fox was a prototype that was barely even finished.

Ah, I misunderstood. But Gray Fox is a different beast from Ocelot- he's a full body conversion said to be comparable to MGRR rando enemies (though that scaling is a bit questionable), scaling his LS to an arm not necessarily meant for combat is still a bit questionable.

 

[Chariot190]

Throwing out words like headcanon means nothing because I haven't conjured up some make believe story but have used the game itself to contradict you.

You are QUITE LITERALLY ignoring not just the game, but at least two other games as well when you talk of Gray Fox.

 

[Abstractions]

I am not "downplaying" the importance of the scene, you are overplaying it. If i really wanted to downplay it I wouldn't even recognize it as a counter or something like this. What I'm doing is putting things into perspective, because going with this ONE scene basically causes us to gloss over or find stupid reasons to ignore some legit feats.

Or simply acknowledge that said feats aren't meant to be seen as gospel because that requires less assumptions and doesn't break the setting? If you've resorted to calling reasonable arguments against your claim to be stupid for no discernable reason then that shows you have no real rebuttal.

ZEKE, Cocoon and possibly Peace Walker itself. I'm of course talking about Naked, not Solid.

Never happens in a cutscene and purely in gameplay.

No, you are blatantly trying to bend the context to fit your idea.

"No you" aside, not sure how I could be twisting context by going off what's actually shown.

NOTHING implies that Gray Fox was nerfing himself, literally nothing, what you did is a step above literal headcanon just because it's sorta based on a true fact, Gray Fox's deathwish, but it takes this single fact and bends it beyond all logic.

You are admitting to me that you know he has a deathwish and wants to die, and then saying that it takes leaps and bounds to come to the conclusion that he's nerfing himself when we see him move beyond what Snake can react in that very same cutscene.

You are agreeing with me but simultaneously disagreeing because it doesn't suit your narrative.

 

[Chariot190]

Or simply acknowledge that said feats aren't meant to be seen as gospel because that requires less assumptions and doesn't break the setting? If you've resorted to calling reasonable arguments against your claim to be stupid for no discernable reason then that shows you have no real rebuttal.

Break the setting? The setting with giant mecha and people that can toss them around and shit with cyborg ninjas and all this other shit? You have played a MGS game right? Breaking the setting is the least of issues here. Simply acknowledge that more feats other than just the 3 PW feats exist as well which coincide with the rating, pretty basic shit here.

Never happens in a cutscene and purely in gameplay.

Yet is supported by several other cutscene feats.

"No you" aside, not sure how I could be twisting context by going off what's actually shown.

If you were going off what was actually shown we wouldn't be having this argument. When it's said he's going all out, is actively shown trying to kill Snake at least 4 times. Twisting the context is sugarcoating what you're doing, at this point it's just ignorance.

You are admitting to me that you know he has a deathwish and wants to die, and then saying that it takes leaps and bounds to come to the conclusion that he's nerfing himself when we see him move beyond what Snake can react in that very same cutscene.

I'm pretty sure I went over this in full. But yes, let's outright ignore Snake reacting to him while he's moving FTE, hurting him to the point we can hear suit damage, Gray Fox actively being a blood knight and wanting to have one last fist fight to the death like he had in Outer Heaven, him saying he's gonna try and kill Snake and then him actively visibly trying to do so multiple times, etc. At this point it isnt even a death wish, you're ignoring everything, and I MEAN QUITE LITERALLY EVERYTHING about the context of said death wish to say "well he was holding back", yeah sure, because you can hold back getting some broken ribs.

You are agreeing with me but simultaneously disagreeing because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Not a real argument, and honestly it probably has more to do with how much you're twisting the absolute **** out of the context to suit YOUR narrative. You're being more then just a tad hypocritical here.
Honest question, have you ever played the MSX games?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, Chariot and Twellas are making far more sense than Abstractions is.

 

[Twellas]

Or simply acknowledge that said feats aren't meant to be seen as gospel because that requires less assumptions and doesn't break the setting?

It doesn't require "less assumptions", ffs man, even by number alone, it takes more assumptions to take the statement over the feats. Saying that that scene is PIS isn't even an assumption, we are barely even dismissing it, we are simply recognizing that "hey, this single statement goes against most of the Lifting Strenght feats in the verse due to plot, maybe we should take what we are actually shown throughout the series over this singular instance that gets contradicted in the bossfight right after"

If you've resorted to calling reasonable arguments against your claim to be stupid for no discernable reason then that shows you have no real rebuttal.

I have been presenting rebuttals for the last 3 pages. Your argument basically boils down to ignoring the concept of PIS.

Never happens in a cutscene and purely in gameplay.

So the **** what? Are we just gonna pretend it doesn't happen? And btw, these are QTEs, they are not some glitchy shit or stuff like this, they are even backed up by voicelines from the characters themselves

"No you" aside, not sure how I could be twisting context by going off what's actually shown.

You are expressly NOT going off of what's actually shown, because if you were you would accept that Gray Fox had no reason to nerf himself, it's never implied he did and he wouldn't even be able to nerf himself to the point where Snake doesn't scale to his REX feat, because this isn't ******* DBZ, there is no magical ki control, in MGS "suppressing" yourself merely means "holding your hits", and "holding" only nerfs you so much; you'd also realize that Gray Fox's quotes clearly show that what he wants is a serious battle to the death where EITHER FIGHTER could die, unlike what you claim

You are admitting to me that you know he has a deathwish and wants to die, and then saying that it takes leaps and bounds to come to the conclusion that he's nerfing himself when we see him move beyond what Snake can react in that very same cutscene.

Yes, because having a ******* deathwish doesn't mean that when you get into a fight you just completely nerf yourself, especially when the fight's WHOLE PURPOSE is to be an honourable contest where EITHER OPPONENT COULD DIE, ffs Vamp also had a deathwish but still kicked Raiden's ass in MGS4. And the FTE shit isn't even made clear, most likely doesn't even apply to combat, and we have proof of Snake fighting on equal footing with Gray Fox after having one of his mental breakdowns that causes him to "lose control", ON TOP OF THIS, it's not even in the og game, so what are we even talking about?

You are agreeing with me but simultaneously disagreeing because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Absolutely not, you are bending my arguments into fitting yours.

 

[Chariot190]

Does Abstraction not even realize Gray Fox is quoting himself from the earlier games and contextually, what he wants is another death match with Snake like they had in the mine field where they both came out as true warriors and fought to the death with nothing but their fists? (All of Snake's equipment was burned due to the MG explosion, he and Gray Fox had only their fists, which is why he throws his blade away in MGS1).

(Also how the **** does Gray Fox nerf his durability, because Solid was still damaging him and actively causing him pain, ignoring the fact Gray Fox can straight up kill you in the fight and tries to do so several times in cutscenes, doing a pretty shitty job holding back).

 

[Chariot190]

But hey, Old Snake can grapple with Ocelot's cybernetic arm, something that should make Gray Fox blush, in ways such as breaking out of locks and holds and all this other fun stuff.

Also think I found another feat in Port Ops.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with Chariot and Twellas, PIS should never supersede actual feats, especially when the feats outnumber said PIS significantly.
Also I'm not sure how Gray Fox could hold back THAT much, like Twellas said this isn't DBZ where Ki control is a viable explanation.

 

[Chariot190]

Also I'm not sure how Gray Fox could hold back THAT much, like Chariot said this isn't DBZ where Ki control is a viable explanation.

Wasnt me but yeah point stands. Helps that Snake goes on to out muscle even better tech later on.

 

[Abstractions]

Break the setting? The setting with giant mecha and people that can toss them around and shit with cyborg ninjas and all this other shit? You have played a MGS game right? Breaking the setting is the least of issues here. Simply acknowledge that more feats other than just the 3 PW feats exist as well which coincide with the rating, pretty basic shit here.

Thank you for completely misunderstanding my comment, because it had nothing to do with Raiden other MGRR characters.

I have gone over the Gray Fox and Psycho Mantis scaling already, they aren't simply "out of sight, out of mind" like you claim I'm making them.

Yet is supported by several other cutscene feats.

And contradicted by several others, including the one where Snake is almost crushed.

If you were going off what was actually shown we wouldn't be having this argument. When it's said he's going all out, is actively shown trying to kill Snake at least 4 times. Twisting the context is sugarcoating what you're doing, at this point it's just ignorance.

I'm pretty sure I went over this in full. But yes, let's outright ignore Snake reacting to him while he's moving FTE, hurting him to the point we can hear suit damage, Gray Fox actively being a blood knight and wanting to have one last fist fight to the death like he had in Outer Heaven, him saying he's gonna try and kill Snake and then him actively visibly trying to do so multiple times, etc. At this point it isnt even a death wish, you're ignoring everything, and I MEAN QUITE LITERALLY EVERYTHING about the context of said death wish to say "well he was holding back", yeah sure, because you can hold back getting some broken ribs.

Are you blatantly ignoring the fact that we see him going all out only when he's not in control of his mental faculties and Snake cannot see him? Even ignoring anything else, this is clear indication of holding back because he's directly holding back his speed.

He's asking to be hurt, restricting his movement, taunting and stalling, and handicapping himself by dropping his sword in favor of his fists because he wants to kill Snake? Are you listening to yourself?

Not a real argument, and honestly it probably has more to do with how much you're twisting the absolute **** out of the context to suit YOUR narrative. You're being more then just a tad hypocritical here.

"No you." summarizes this rebuttal.

(Also how the **** does Gray Fox nerf his durability)

Strawman.

Does Abstraction not even realize Gray Fox is quoting himself from the earlier games and contextually, what he wants is another death match with Snake like they had in the mine field where they both came out as true warriors and fought to the death with nothing but their fists? (All of Snake's equipment was burned due to the MG explosion, he and Gray Fox had only their fists, which is why he throws his blade away in MGS1).

Does Chariot realize that Gray Fox is physically enhanced at this point and intentionally holds back by throwing away his blade and restricting his speed for an even fight?

It doesn't require "less assumptions", ffs man, even by number alone, it takes more assumptions to take the statement over the feats. Saying that that scene is PIS isn't even an assumption, we are barely even dismissing it, we are simply recognizing that "hey, this single statement goes against most of the Lifting Strenght feats in the verse due to plot, maybe we should take what we are actually shown throughout the series over this singular instance that gets contradicted in the bossfight right after"

I have been presenting rebuttals for the last 3 pages. Your argument basically boils down to ignoring the concept of PIS.

Saying that the scene is PIS is an assumption, you are making a direct claim based on gameplay elements to supersede lore when it directly contradicts it, I look at the lore and do not have to make a claim he can't do something because the cutscene is telling us that very thing.


Again, this is going to go in circles and should be decided by votes.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wasnt me but yeah point stands. Helps that Snake goes on to out muscle even better tech later on.

Yeah, just realized it was Twellas, my bad lol.

 

[Ionliosite]

(Oh God, this thread is a mess)

I also disagree with Class M.

 

[Twellas]

Saying that the scene is PIS is an assumption

No it's not, it perfectly fits the definition of PIS.

you are making a direct claim based on gameplay elements to supersede lore when it directly contradicts it, I look at the lore and do not have to make a claim he can't do something because the cutscene is telling us that very thing.

-Ignoring all the other feats from MGS1, 5 and 4.
And I look at the gameplay and it tells me a completely different story while also being backed up by actual voicelines by the characters, this is a videogame, gameplay is kind of a huge ******* deal

 

[Chariot190]

Thank you for completely misunderstanding my comment, because it had nothing to do with Raiden other MGRR characters.

I mean yeah, wasn't talking about MGRR or Raiden, strawman much? You do know cyborg ninjas, mechas, supernatural entities and so much more come in super early? Break the setting? Maybe if it actually did.

I have gone over the Gray Fox and Psycho Mantis scaling already, they aren't simply "out of sight, out of mind" like you claim I'm making them.

You havent though, well you have, but it's pretty bad no offense.

And contradicted by several others, including the one where Snake is almost crushed.

Oh we doing links now? Also didn't we go over this 8 pages ago?

Are you blatantly ignoring the fact that we see him going all out only when he's not in control of his mental faculties and Snake cannot see him? Even ignoring anything else, this is clear indication of holding back because he's directly holding back his speed.

Not really because I literally went frame by frame and Solid looks to where the slash is gonna appear next at least several times before it actually happens. Yes, even ignoring everything else, because that's exactly what you're doing.

He's asking to be hurt, restricting his movement, taunting and stalling, and handicapping himself by dropping his sword in favor of his fists because he wants to kill Snake? Are you listening to yourself?

Yes actually. He's asking to be hurt because it makes him feel alive again and he lives for the thrill of the fight (Literally says this in at least two games, including in response to Snake hurting him). Not restricting his movements, he still jumps around and shit. Taunting and stalling is normal for him, he does it in the older games too even when having a serious death match that ended with him "dying" but not before having a monologue about the thrill of the fight and knowing nothing but war and warriors and shit, handicapping himself with his fists because Snake stopped using his weapons too and his last wish is to have a no holds barred fist fight with Solid like he did in Zanzibar Land. He literally tries to kill Snake 4 times in cutscenes alone, and even does so in game if you let him.

"No you." summarizes this rebuttal.

Wasnt my rebuttal to make, I'm just calling you out on your shit.

Strawman.

No? You're very clearly saying he held back, yet Solid is shown to have the strength to induce heavy damage to him and make him reel in pain, damaging both him and his suit. This already proves that Solid>That one REX stomp that Gray Fox held up without breaking a sweat. Third law exists too and Gray Fox can deal with his own hits just fine, but not Snake's.

Does Chariot realize that Gray Fox is physically enhanced at this point and intentionally holds back by throwing away his blade and restricting his speed for an even fight?

Do you realize that exosuits likely dont even increase speed and Gray Fox being FTE and slicing bullets was a thing he's been doing since his time as Null (and then got his ass kicked by Big Boss, twice). And physically enhanced? Yeah, and Solid can physically hurt him so, so much for him being out of Solid's league. He threw his blade away for a reason we LITERALLY KNOW THE BACKSTORY TO, like we ******* see it happen, you can PLAY the backstory.

Saying that the scene is PIS is an assumption, you are making a direct claim based on gameplay elements to supersede lore when it directly contradicts it, I look at the lore and do not have to make a claim he can't do something because the cutscene is telling us that very thing.

And then cue several more feats that happen after that suggest otherwise. Also **** at this point why do we even have a PIS page?

Again, this is going to go in circles and should be decided by votes.

How about no.

 

[Twellas]

And contradicted by several others, including the one where Snake is almost crushed.

Taking TTS over the og game, sssllllick, my man, slick as ****.

Are you blatantly ignoring the fact that we see him going all out only when he's not in control of his mental faculties and Snake cannot see him? Even ignoring anything else, this is clear indication of holding back because he's directly holding back his speed.

Except that he's using travel speed and not combat speed in that instance, and we have proof of Snake fighting Gray Fox right after he has a fit. And again, none of this FTE business happens in the og game.

He's asking to be hurt, restricting his movement, taunting and stalling, and handicapping himself by dropping his sword in favor of his fists because he wants to kill Snake? Are you listening to yourself?

Asking to be hurt is a non-argument, restricting his movement isn't even a thing, taunting is a non-argument so is stalling and he's not handicapping himself by dropping his sword, he's removing his unfair advantage.

 

[Abstractions]

I mean yeah, wasn't talking about MGRR or Raiden, strawman much? You do know cyborg ninjas, mechas, supernatural entities and so much more come in super early? Break the setting? aybe if it actually did.

Break the setting? The setting with giant mecha and people that can toss them around and shit with cyborg ninjas and all this other shit?

Weird. I mean, you would else understand my comment if you truly understood what I tackled with it, instead of shooting yourself in the foot with another strawman claim.

Taking TTS over the og game, sssllllick, my man, slick as ****.

It's not like we use feats from it on the pages or anything, heavens no. Also not like you consider it a legitimate addition, or are you taking this back so suddenly?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Abstractions, you literally argued that TTS doesn't count earlier and are now using shit from it to debunk us. Make up your damn mind already.

 

[Armorchompy]

It was agreed that it will be counted, so why should he not use it?

 

[Twellas]

It's not like we use feats from it on the pages or anything, heavens no. Also not like you consider it a legitimate addition, or are you taking this back so suddenly?

1) we do, but we take the og over it when there are contradictions, and this is a contradiction, as in the og, Gray Fox halts REX's foot a good 50 meters away from Snake, which means that even if he wanted to, he wouldn't have had a chance to try and do it

2) I do, but not when it contradicts the og, for instance, I use it for my justification to Snake scaling to Mantis' TK because it gives us MORE INFO on a scene that's already present in the og and is the exact same, what you are doing is taking a scene that differs from what's shown in the og and putting it as above the og itself, which is different from me simply using it for additional context and feats

 

[Chariot190]

Weird. I mean, you would else understand my comment if you truly understood what I tackled with it, instead of shooting yourself in the foot with another strawman claim.

Then that isnt breaking the setting, that's breaking a narrative point, which is like, yeah and? It's why it's a plot contrivance proven wrong multiple times afterwards and before.

It's not like we use feats from it on the pages or anything, heavens no. Also not like you consider it a legitimate addition, or are you taking this back so suddenly?

As far as my concern with TTS, it's fine as long as it merely expands what already existed in the original or things that still happened just shown further. When it goes and adds a bunch of new shit that's a little sus. I'm pretty sure I gave my stance on this a long while back before this mess anyway. Doesnt change the result either way because Gray Fox was serious and actively tries to kill multiple times and his only handicap he did shouldnt even have to be explained, in both games.

Also Ursula can use TK to lift RAXXA.
So toss that onto the list.

 

[Armorchompy]

Look, this is still going nowhere. We won't force a vote so you guys can keep talking in circles forever or agree to one.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Yeah, let's ignore all the new feats presented...

 

[Chariot190]

Look, this is still going nowhere. We won't force a vote so you guys can keep talking in circles forever or agree to one.

Or, we can argue the blatant falsehoods and continue on looking for feats? Hell Cyborg Ocelot with a super robot arm or ursula TK is some new shit and that's just been mentioned in the past day alone. **** a solid tier 8 feat from Sahel was found yesterday too. But yeah let's leave it to a vote, that qas sarcasm, I'm ready to debate as log as needed if the information and proposals presented are kinda sus.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm still siding with abstractions here

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

At this point, I think it would be best of we postpone the revisions for now given it turned into a massive shitstorm. The OP was too super massive for one thread, and the topic that dragged through the whole thread was no even following the OP at all.

 

[Chariot190]

Can we AT LEAST get the TK thread going? I couldnt find shit when I looked.

 

[Armorchompy]

Talk in circles it is

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Can we AT LEAST get the TK thread going? I couldnt find shit when I looked.

Yeah, that thread could drastically alter how Metal Gear Scaling works at all.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Can we AT LEAST get the TK thread going? I couldnt find shit when I looked.

Ask wok about it

 

[Twellas]

Talk in circles it is

It just so happens that we found 2 additional feats while "talking circles"

 

[SpookyShadow]

Talk in circles it is

Well, ironically you're right now talking in circles, ignoring new feats that were brought up and still talking about "talking in circles".

 

[Twellas]

It'd also be nice to hear from you, you haven't given your opinion on the whole thing in quite a while, what do you agree with and what do you not agree with? Genuinely curious, because I seem to remember that you agreed to stuff like Snake scaling to Gray Fox

 

[Abstractions]

Abstractions, you literally argued that TTS doesn't count earlier and are now using shit from it to debunk us. Make up your damn mind already.

Cinder, I never made a claim on the validity of TTS, that was the argument between Chariot and Twellas.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agreed that under normal circumstances, Snake would scale to Fox since if nothing contradicts it, just fighting someone H2H is enough for LS scaling, but that is clearly the case, so I don't think he does. As for the rest, I mostly agree with Abs, which is why I haven't been speaking much.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Striking Strength does not equal Lifting Strength in fiction, so punching a Gray Fox who is slowly walking toward Snake and begging him to hurt him isn't evidence for lifting.

We all agree that Solid Snake is weaker than Gray Fox, to some degree, since he would've been crushed by Rex quicker right? Well, by the end of the game Solid Snake was unable to lift a jeep, which is a massive anti-feat. He is not depicted to be as strong as Gray Fox at all.



I was neutral on Solid Snake having massive lifting strength, but now I am against it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Before Twellas does, I'll bring up his counterargument to this, which is that Snake eventually manages to get out of the jeep and him not doing so immediately is PIS, but this is still one hell of an anti-feat imo