Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Armorchompy]

Gonna be blunt if I have to, rather that then not be blunt.

Gonna call an admin if I have to, rather that then not call an admin.

You mean the canon Gene who's featured in MGS4 multiple times and is stated to be canon by Kojima. A robotic enemy made by the dude who went on to make cyborg Raiden. (ignoring that solid later proceeds to fight exosuit wearing characters anyway. Hell, here's a funfact, originally Big Boss was a cyborg in MG2 as well with the same tech as Brad and precursor tech to MGS4 Raiden before Venom became a thing).

I don't see how BB being a cyborg affects this in any way? There's also the fact that Bloody Brad was older than Fox and it's not like its technology was a mystery, they were fully aware of its abilities and all, absolutely no reason for its tech not to go into fox

Yes, I am saying that, because he is, hell the very fact Solid can hurt Gray Fox with his strikes but Gray Fox can withstand his own proves at minimum there's comparability there. He did, but he was also killed by REX's stomp and made into a bloody smear on the floor and crushed by him. Gray Fox can halt (and even toss in the comic) REX, but he's still not as strong as him either if REX really decides to put his hydraulics into it. There's some comparability but no shit they're weaker then REX, basically everything in verse is, REX is basically the strongest thing physically, especially when you take into account Sahel.

REX isn't putting his hydraulics into it though, you can get hurt by REX just walking around not even trying to step on you. Honestly, considering that it might even be an outlier that Fox pulled that off at all.

Also, wait, REX, who doesn't have any showings on ZEKE's level, can effortlessly overpower Snake or Fox if it tries to, while ZEKE's full might isn't enough to hurt Big Boss, who basically shrugs it off? Do you realize the contradiction here? Hell, a human Fox even fights BB!

Not far enough, 22 feats right now. Maybe 23. Im going through the MGS4 database right now, I downloaded it to my PS3 and I still have to test some shit in 4, 5, TTS, and the MSX games.

I assume the majority of these aren't Class K/M? Either way, props for the dedication, if nothing else.

 

[AKM sama]

Over 1000 comments...

This thread seems like one of those typical battle of attrition types

I still think Abstractions' side of arguments make more sense here.

 

[Chariot190]

Gonna call an admin if I have to, rather that then not call an admin.

Over me being blunt?

I don't see how BB being a cyborg affects this in any way? There's also the fact that Bloody Brad was older than Fox and it's not like its technology was a mystery, they were fully aware of its abilities and all, absolutely no reason for its tech not to go into fox

Actually, it was. Dr. Clark and the Patriots made Gray Fox's exoskeleton, it was there first venture in that field and Gray Fox was used as the basis for their experimental technology (also used to test Big Boss DNA enhancements). Drago on the other hand was apart of Big Boss' faction, who, I dont think I should have to mention this, is entirely opposed to the patriots vehemently. Its technology actually was a mystery to the patriots, in so far they hadnt gotten there yet and had no way of reverse engineering it if they even learned of it (by the time of 4 shit's common, Gray Fox though was their first), (I should also mention that Venom is treated comparably to those cyborgs in game) and Drago himself kept his tech close to his chest (though not by choice), he was also exiled and he's the world's best in robotics and cybernetics to a huge degree, way ahead of Clark to the point it's not even funny, he was capable of doing something that took Clark years to do in less time and perfectly at that, while she still ****** up here and there. And when the Patriots finally do get ahold of Drago? They shit out Raiden's cyborg body in less than like a year. There's a lot of reasons why it wouldnt go into Fox, in fact im going to go on a limb and say it's outright impossible for them to have done so.

REX isn't putting his hydraulics into it though, you can get hurt by REX just walking around not even trying to step on you. Honestly, considering that it might even be an outlier that Fox pulled that off at all.

He literally does though? Yes, meaning Solid can survive getting stepped on, a super hydraulic curb stomp? Well that's something else entirely, but when Gray Fox lifted him he just kinda grabbed him mid step. Or, maybe, just maybe, there's a difference between a casual step and the super stomp with hydraulics and everything, even his little claws come out. Either way, Gray Fox lifted him.

Also, wait, REX, who doesn't have any showings on ZEKE's level, can effortlessly overpower Snake or Fox if it tries to, while ZEKE's full might isn't enough to hurt Big Boss? Do you realize the contradiction here? Hell, a human Fox even fights BB!

Uh, bro, REX likely scales to Sahel. Who dabs on ZEKE, PW, and literally every Metal Gear in existence except RAY, except RAY too apparently because MG Rex proceeds to. ZEKE is the very first real Metal Gear, it's not the weakest but... Well it aint Rex or Sahel either, even going by feats, Sahel has better feats, ESPECIALLY in regards to jumping and lifting, leg strength alone, it could jump over half a kilometer (in a cutscene no less, in like, a few seconds tops). A human Gray Fox (who's superhumanly enhanced) fights Big Boss, and loses. It'd be different if Gray Fox didn't lose twice in a row.

I assume the majority of these aren't Class K/M? Either way, props for the dedication, if nothing else.

A few are. Though there's a lot more random ass dozen ton feats then I expected.

 

[Twellas]

Yes, the questionably canon Gene.

questionable my ass, Ports is canon, cut it off, its events are outright mentioned in MGS5 and PW.

But you are saying that Snake is stronger than Fox or at least as strong as him, and Fox halted REX's stomp quite casually.

Blocking a stomp mid-action doesn't necessarily mean you scale to AP, Gray Fox and Snake can scale to REX's LS without scaling to its AP, which they don't

Do you even grapple the Tengu, actually? I don't remember. Either way, I don't think we have any direct statement on how Old Snake with the suit holds up against Solid Snake, though it shouldn't be too different.

You can grapple any humanoid. MGS4 Snake with the muscle suit is at most comparable to his peak self, but he's far more likely still significantly weaker, due to the body underneath being busted up (back pains etc)

Honestly, considering that it might even be an outlier that Fox pulled that off at all.

b r u h, we are at what, 3 feats you've called an outlier? 4?

Also, wait, REX, who doesn't have any showings on ZEKE's level, can effortlessly overpower Snake or Fox if it tries to, while ZEKE's full might isn't enough to hurt Big Boss, who basically shrugs it off? Do you realize the contradiction here? Hell, a human Fox even fights BB!

What do you mean "REX doesn't have any showings on ZEKE's level"? It obviously scales. Yeah, BB fought human Fox and kicked his teeth in, so what's your point

 

[Armorchompy]

Over me being blunt?

Over you being a ****. EDIT: Oh wow it censors that. Probably a good thing, I forgot it's a much heavier insult in America

He literally does though? Yes, meaning Solid can survive getting stepped on, a super hydraulic curb stomp? Well that's something else entirely, but when Gray Fox lifted him he just kinda grabbed him mid step. Or, maybe, just maybe, there's a difference between a casual step and the super stomp with hydraulics and everything, even his little claws come out.

Him surviving that is necessarily an outlier, since REX's AP is a lot higher, which is enforced by Otacon saying a hit from REX will kill him.

Uh, bro, REX likely scales to Sahel. Who dabs on ZEKE, PW, and literally every Metal Gear in existence except RAY, except RAY too apparently because MG Rex proceeds to. ZEKE is the very first real Metal Gear, it's not the weakest but... Well it aint Rex or Sahel either, even going by feats, Sahel has better feats, ESPECIALLY in regards to jumping and lifting, leg strength alone, it could jump over half a kilometer (in a cutscene no less, in like, a few seconds tops). A human Gray Fox (who's superhumanly enhanced) fights Big Boss, and loses. It'd be different if Gray Fox didn't lose twice in a row.

Twellas himself said Sahel shouldn't necessarily scale to ZEKE. And REX scaling to Sal is questionable, I mean Sal was clearly the inspiration, but Sahel's tech got lost, and I doubt a young traumatized Hal could fully understand it. He was certainly already a prodigy, but I doubt he understood most of it, especially since he only got to pilot it for a brief while before Strangelove stepped in.

questionable my ass, Ports is canon, cut it off, its events are outright mentioned in MGS5 and PW.

Eh, fair enough, even if the one mention in PW seems to be more Kojima saying "Please ignore what happened in that game thx"

Blocking a stomp mid-action doesn't necessarily mean you scale to AP, Gray Fox and Snake can scale to REX's LS without scaling to its AP, which they don't

Actually, it literally ******* does considering you're planning to use that as an AP feat for Snake, with Cocoon. Besides, LS doesn't magically cancel out the AP, Fox may have blocked it, but it's not like all that kinetic energy went nowhere

You can grapple any humanoid. MGS4 Snake with the muscle suit is at most comparable to his peak self, but he's far more likely still significantly weaker, due to the body underneath being busted up (back pains etc)

I agree he's not much stronger, but he's definitely not much weaker, since a direct statement contrasts that.

b r u h, we are at what, 3 feats you've called an outlier? 4?

Three. ZEKE, Cocoon, and this.

What do you mean "REX doesn't have any showings on ZEKE's level"? It obviously scales. Yeah, BB fought human Fox and kicked his teeth in, so what's your point

ZEKE's tech was lost. I don't disagree REX is stronger, but in terms of sheer LS, we don't really know that. It sure as hell can't jump that high. And kicked his teeth in, sure, but that's still scaling in some way, and MGS1 Fox is quite a bit stronger than he was before.

 

[SpookyShadow]

If we really wanna call something an outlier then give us some standards for outliers, because there aren't more anti feats than actual feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, Chariot himself said there's a shitton of 10-tonner feats, that already indicates more consistence in that. As for other anti-feats, I'm not gonna bother repeating myself. But I reject their debunking, that's for sure.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I just want to note... anti feats can be named outliers too.

From Outlier page

"Several of the most iconic force wielders in the Star Wars series have repeatedly been shown as not having very different physical statistics than regular marines and bounty hunters who cannot use The Force, as well as having problems fighting smaller vehicles and ships. However, the same Jedi and Sith also have feats that far surpass any Tier 9 or 8 machines and soldiers, and Jedi masters have effortlessly overpowered the strongest non-force users on other occasions. It is also important to note that Jedi have a code of honor that forbids them from using their more extreme powers except in dire emergencies. On the other hand, there have still been many occurrences of Jedi being killed by very low-level attacks, despite that there would be little to no logical justification for this to be the case."

And several other examples.

 

[Chariot190]

Over you being a ****. EDIT: Oh wow it censors that. Neato

If it's the cussing you dont like ill cut it back a tad, but that's about it.

Him surviving that is necessarily an outlier, since REX's AP is a lot higher, which is enforced by Otacon saying a hit from REX will kill him.

We arent even talking AP bro.

Twellas himself said Sahel shouldn't necessarily scale to ZEKE. And REX scaling to Sal is questionable, I mean Sal was clearly the inspiration, but Sahel's tech got lost, and I doubt a young traumatized Hal could fully understand it. He was certainly already a prodigy, but I doubt he understood most of it, especially since he only got to pilot it for a brief while before Strangelove stepped in.

Uh, what? this low key feels like a straw man. Literally none of that has anything to do with why REX should scale to Sahel imo. Definitely not because of Hal piloting it or whatever.

Eh, fair enough, even if the one mention in PW seems to be more Kojima saying "Please ignore what happened in that game thx"

I mean, he doesnt LIKE it, but has gone on record saying that the game is crucial, explicitly canon, and it's mentioned in PW, and even shown in 4 too.

Actually, it literally ******* does considering you're planning to use that as an AP feat for Snake, with Cocoon. Besides, LS doesn't magically cancel out the AP, Fox may have blocked it, but it's not like all that kinetic energy went nowhere

Uh no? Nobody here plans on using the REX stomp to scale AP? At this point I'm not even sure Cocoon is needed actually, though it doesnt matter. REX was never apart of any AP justifications at all? Idk thread is long as **** so no issues if you misinterpreted that somewhere.

I agree he's not much stronger, but he's definitely not much weaker, since a direct statement contrasts that.

He's probably physically around the same, edging toward the weaker side. But the point is the suit doesnt actually make him stronger than his peak.

ZEKE's tech was lost. I don't disagree REX is stronger, but in terms of sheer LS, we don't really know that. It sure as hell can't jump that high. And kicked his teeth in, sure, but that's still scaling in some way, and MGS1 Fox is quite a bit stronger than he was before.

Not true there. Huey went on to make Sahel, Huey being directly involved with ZEKE. MGS1 Fox is physically stronger, sure, but so? Solid literally beat Human Gray Fox, an already enhanced superhuman, so badly, he literally died, while Solid had not even a scratch on him. Also REX can toss around RAY with just his mouth, RAY being over 1000tons so like, and in regards to LS, he's above Sahel in LS at the very least based on Sahel's REX mode.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If we really wanna call something an outlier then give us some standards for outliers, because there aren't more anti feats than actual feats.

Characters consistently struggling with lesser feats yet casually accomplishing higher feats, that is the definition of an outlier

 

[SpookyShadow]

"Consistently"

That's the problem. If you find the "consistency" in anti-feats, THEN we can talk about the higher feats being outliers.

 

[Twellas]

Actually, it literally ******* does considering you're planning to use that as an AP feat for Snake, with Cocoon

Literally 2 completely different things, REX was merely stomping around, Cocoon put 100% of its weight into crushing Snake and he stopped it in like, what, 2 frames?

Besides, LS doesn't magically cancel out the AP, Fox may have blocked it, but it's not like all that kinetic energy went nowhere

Yeah, fair enough, but this wiki works by dividing the two things, and stopping someone's attempt to stomp on you is expressly a LS feat, that may become an AP one if it's performed in a particularly small timeframe

I agree he's not much stronger, but he's definitely not much weaker, since a direct statement contrasts that.

The guy's back doesn't work, my man, you can literally see him touch his lower back right before the Crying Wolf fight and hear it pop and he probably has lung cancer or somet breathing problems, given his frequent violent coughing fits, no amount of muscle suit can fix that.

Three. ZEKE, Cocoon, and this.

Yeah, and don't you find anything wrong with this?

ZEKE's tech was lost. I don't disagree REX is stronger, but in terms of sheer LS, we don't really know that. It sure as hell can't jump that high. And kicked his teeth in, sure, but that's still scaling in some way

We still have Sahel, who is superior to ZEKE and almost certainly influenced REX. Also nice, you're basically agreeing that MGS1 Fox should scale to Snake. Where is the paradox, exactly?

 

[Chariot190]

Characters consistently struggling with lesser feats yet casually accomplishing higher feats, that is the definition of an outlier

At this point, there'd have to be like two dozen feats of the characters barely being superhuman in LS for anything to be regarded as an outlier.
And I can say with certain, there sure as **** aint that many anti-feats. There's a few sure, but when is anything ever perfect? I'm surprised MGS is as consistent as it is to begin with.

 

[Twellas]

Characters consistently struggling with lesser feats yet casually accomplishing higher feats, that is the definition of an outlier

Funny how you find the consistency in the, like, 2/3 "lesser feats" but fail to do the same in the 5 Class K/M stuff, funny how that works, really

 

[Hellbeast]

At this point just go for votes

We've gotten literally nowhere in 11 pages

 

[SpookyShadow]

At this point just go for votes

We've gotten literally nowhere in 11 pages

"Nowhere"

A proof you didn't touch the thread and you don't know that there isn't even a conclusion on what do to yet.

 

[Hellbeast]

Actually if you look closely mate I've been on this thread for a while (Want to say Page 2)

I've been reading along and all I'm seeing is nearly 1000 messages and 11 pages worth of ad hominen and repeated arguments with a dash of lovely hostility

I bring this up BECAUSE we've come to no conclusion on what to do which is absolutely ridiculous at this point considering the amount of users, comments and staff involved here

Either post the big feats or let this move onto votes where we can all move on lest it be blocked

And I'm hardly the only one who's pointed this out....

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm neutral towards voting, since there is one last dig for feats being made. But I definitely wouldn't mind if we did.

 

[Chariot190]

At this point just go for votes

We've gotten literally nowhere in 11 pages

idk, im actually having fun gathering feats. Even ignoring LS feats, a lot of random other cool stuff was found like resistances, some AP feats, maybe a durability feat (though idk how to go about implementing surface area into it). Progress is being made, even if, worse case scenario, it's in other facets.

 

[Hellbeast]

Then post them

Looking for feats should have been earlier in the thread and considering how long it's been going on at this point its odd you have to look for more

 

[SpookyShadow]

That doesn't mean you've been paying attention to the counterpoints.

What do you expect when there's constant nitpicking and not responding to the opposition's most good arguments? The arguments will simply repeat and yes, we WILL go nowhere if it keeps being like that.

Yes, because it's a large "downgrade" and there's some weird arguing about why 1/2 "anti-feats" are better to use than more consistent feats that are way higher. Nothing ridiculous, just another downgrade day.

 

[SpookyShadow]

yeah honestly "its odd you have to look for more", considering the fact that there aren't even half as many anti feats to make the Class K/higher feats be considered outliers.

 

[Chariot190]

Then post them

Looking for feats should have been earlier in the thread and considering how long it's been going on at this point its odd you have to look for more

I'll post them when I'm actually done thank you, yes because let's post a feat few every few hours and then proceed to waste a fuckton of time on that instead of just going along with doing more research and dumping everything all at once.

Oh, my bad, I wasn't aware playing through entire games and spending hours a day testing shit was supposed to be fast (and ive only really been looking deep into things for around 3-4 days, two of which I had to work). You're right, it is odd that I have to look for more, this shouldnt even be a thing at this point.

 

[Hellbeast]

That doesn't mean you've been paying attention to the counterpoints.

What do you expect when there's constant nitpicking and not responding to the opposition's most good arguments? The arguments will simply repeat and yes, we WILL go nowhere if it keeps being like that.

Yes, because it's a large "downgrade" and there's some weird arguing about why 1/2 "anti-feats" are better to use than more consistent feats that are way higher. Nothing ridiculous, just another downgrade day.

Spooky with respect could you not talk as if I've not been reading this thread?

I've read the counter arguments from both sides and at this point we're getting bloody nowhere quickly

No thread should be this inconclusive after 1000 messages and I'm sure you can see why that's ridiculous

 

[Twellas]

casually accomplishing higher feats

BB's feats in PW aren't really casual at all, he clearly struggles quite a bit, the casual one is Gray Fox's

 

[Hellbeast]

I'll post them when I'm actually done thank you, yes because let's post a few every few hours and then proceed to waste a fuckton of time on that instead of just going along with doing more research.

Oh, my bad, I wasn't aware playing through entire games and spending hours a day testing shit was supposed to be fast. You're right, it is odd that I have to look for more, this shouldnt even be a thing at this point.

And I wasn't aware you didn't collect these threads BEFORE the thread

If you need to invest an incredible amount of time then don't do it mid revision. That drags the whole thing out even more and gets us absolutely nowhere

And don't be sarcastic, it's done no favours so far

 

[Rikimarox2]

Little sarcasm doesn't hurt anyone ;p

 

[SpookyShadow]

BEFORE the thread

Reminder that the thread was a normal big CRT at first.

 

[Chariot190]

And I wasn't aware you didn't collect these threads BEFORE the thread

I mean, this aint even my thread and wasnt even the point of the thread Hell, ask me three months ago and I wouldve only known the basics.

 

[Hellbeast]

Reminder that the thread was a normal big CRT at first.

Reminder that it's been 12 pages and we're going through the same loop

Get it done and I'm only saying this because I'm sure the admins will say something If I don't

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, for the first like 6 pages it was a normal CRT where we discussed the evidence presented in the OP, for the next 2 or 3 we just talked about AP and only then did it even shift to LS, there was no need to even look for this stuff. Add to the mixture people who started discussing speed and you might see why we are still at this point after 12 pages

 

[SpookyShadow]

Get it done and I'm only saying this because I'm sure the admins will say something If I don't

Sure, you can rush the CRT and get incorrect rating. I mean, if admins want this - go ahead.

 

[Hellbeast]

And you can prolong this till the sun explodes and it gets locked

 

[Twellas]

Regardless, I'm thinking that it might not be too bad of an idea to make a new thread just for the downgrades, maybe devided by stat, because I feel like a lot of useful people aren't even joining due to the sheer length of the thread

 

[Hellbeast]

Regardless, I'm still thinking that it might not be too bad of an idea to make a new thread just for the downgrades, maybe devided by stat, because I feel like a lot of useful people aren't even joining due to the sheer length of the thread

This

Apply the powers and make the downgrade thread

 

[Twellas]

But we'd lose almost all of the progress. Tho I guess I'd only make the thread once we have all of the feats figured out

 

[SpookyShadow]

I also agree with making a separate downgrade thread and keep it fresh, obviously once all the feats are found. And better ask an admin about outlier standards, because trying to downgrade the rating with one or two "anti-feats" is sus as ****.

 

[Twellas]

So yeah, I think I'm gonna make a separate thread for the dowgrades, devided by stats, after we have all of the feats figured out

 

[Armorchompy]

Regardless, I'm thinking that it might not be too bad of an idea to make a new thread just for the downgrades, maybe devided by stat, because I feel like a lot of useful people aren't even joining due to the sheer length of the thread

What if we made another thread for the stuff we were originally discussing and made this the LS thread? Wouldn't lose progress either way. Though I think either is a good idea.

 

[Twellas]

Mh, nah, too much unrelated stuff, it's best if we just close this and make separate threads for LS, AP and this OP, I'll just copy-paste it and remove the universally panned stuff. i won't make either of them immediately, I'll wait for the research to be 100% done