-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"
- Thread starter Twellas
- Start date
- Status
- 3,898
- 540
9-A snake makes me hard as **** tbh
- 3,898
- 540
I think 9-A’s can survive 8-C electricity depending on the AP gap
- 3,898
- 540
Actually,if the downgrade goes through.How far would Snake be into 9-A?
If it’s baseline,he will be unused in battles for all eternity.
If it’s baseline,he will be unused in battles for all eternity.
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #888
No idea, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be baseline, since he tanks at least 9-A railgun shots in MGS4 while literally suffering a stroke, or 3 minutes of human-vaporizing energy non-stop; since MGS4 Snake is so weak compared to his past self that he technically shouldn't even be able to walk, everyone in the verse would scale massively above this
- 3,898
- 540
what
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #891
He would have immortalities type 1, 2 and 7 due to... being dead, and type 6 scaling from Psycho Mantis; 4, not 5, my bad. In MGS4 he vanquishes Psycho Mantis' soul. He can also summon ghosts of all the people the target killed and, apparently, take their skills and powers aswell, which is kinda busted. Oh, he also has precog death manipulation and BFR
Last edited:
- 19,728
- 16,115
The Railguns, going by the science blog, would be high end 9-B rather than 9-A. Unless there's a MGS4 calc I don't know about.
Surviving one mid-stroke would probably qualify for 9-A though.
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #893
MGS4's Railgun would be superior to Fortune's, it's barely even miniaturized if at all, which means that it would probably be significantly superior to Fortune's 10 Megajoules. And Snake didn't even suffer any damage, the bullet barely got through the musclesuit.
Abstractions
Femur Breaker
VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Human Resources
- 2,625
- 2,698
Will be responding in a bit, but am commenting on this.
There is actually no evidence for this bit, the game itself also makes no commentary on a model change from the one Fortune used, even in the database for MGS4. They are regarded as the same tech, just that Crying Wolf could use it more safely in comparison to Fortune.
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #896
I mean, the fact itself that the Railgun is functional without needing Fortune's electromagnetic gizmo and probability manipulation is proof enough of it being an upgraded version, since its problem wasn't weight or stuff like this as much as the fact that it was very likely to discharge accidentally, something Crying Wolf wouldn't be able to deal with unlike Fortune.
But this is beside the point, we'll talk about this if and when time comes
But this is beside the point, we'll talk about this if and when time comes
Hellbeast
He/Him- 4,938
- 4,466
Wait I thought we moved away from LS = AP
- 10,462
- 1,520
...when
- 61,134
- 14,617
Thor
- 14,562
- 11,609
The LS double as KE feats. Two feats in one. Though, I've been gathering footage from MGSV, Sahel has a pretty damn good jumping feat where he jumps hundreds of meters and slams down in less than two seconds (in a cutscene no less). Serves as a solid PE feat and KE feat. Though it's hard to tell who's doing it, Sahel or Mantis, either way it doesn't matter.
I got the M1 Abrams footage now if anyone wants it.
Here's a gif.
- 61,134
- 14,617
We moved away from doing that
- 10,462
- 1,520
What do you mean "that"
- 2,321
- 1,355
It is of note that Venom Snake was convincing for former MSF soldiers, including elite ones, that he is the real thing. So this is an argument that he is comparable to Big Boss.
The travel speed would probably have to go. There is actually basis for the 20km distance: Dr. Pettrovich says that Metal Gear is 100 floors below building 3 20 km north of his prison. An argument can be made that Outer Heaven's prison and the R&D building are likely close to the center of the base, so Solid Snake would need to travel at least 20 km to completly get out of Outer Heaven, though this would be speculative. The bigger issue is in the timeframe; the base issues an instruction to evacuate, and 30-300 seconds is not enough to do so. The Death Stranding travel speed calc was way more reliable than this, and it is apparently questionable.
The Volgin 8-B feat should still be valid for now, though there is a high chance it will become unusable for normal AP/Durability after the upcoming lightning and heat revisions. It is stated that Volgin's rubber suit allows him to generate 10 million volts at will for combat, and he fought Naked Snake wearing it.
There is also the feat of Raiden halting Outer Haven, which has a KE calc of 8-A. The speed in the calc is probably exagerated as it uses the maximum reported speed, when there is limited distance to build up speed for ramming, and its normal travel speed while being chased by a ship was 3/4th of the maximum speed. If we use half the maximum speed we get 8-B, and if we use a quarter of the maximum speed we get High 8-C.
We should probably try to conclude LS ASAP to move toward other things:
The Peace Walker feats would normally be great, but later on there is an important story cutscene where Kaz explicitly says that it would be impossible to move a 500 ton mech a few meters into a water with a timeframe of a few minutes, and a frustrated Big Boss makes no attempt to do so and instead tries to negotiate with the Pentagon. There is a clear gameplay and story segregation, and story probably takes priority.
The fire trucks were tossed one by one, so that is likely Class 25, possibly Class 50 if the trucks are especially heavy. And the trucks are ironicly on fire, so it is possible that the trucks were launched via pyrokinesis rather than muscle strength.
An arguments could be made that Fox was holding back, but I think the Gray Fox scaling is good enough and the Twin Snakes cutscene is supporting feat. But there is still an issue with scaling with Big Boss due to the Peace Walker story anti-feat; Solid Snake is a genetically modified super soldier clone, and it is plausible for Ocelot to acquire augmentations.
The travel speed would probably have to go. There is actually basis for the 20km distance: Dr. Pettrovich says that Metal Gear is 100 floors below building 3 20 km north of his prison. An argument can be made that Outer Heaven's prison and the R&D building are likely close to the center of the base, so Solid Snake would need to travel at least 20 km to completly get out of Outer Heaven, though this would be speculative. The bigger issue is in the timeframe; the base issues an instruction to evacuate, and 30-300 seconds is not enough to do so. The Death Stranding travel speed calc was way more reliable than this, and it is apparently questionable.
The Volgin 8-B feat should still be valid for now, though there is a high chance it will become unusable for normal AP/Durability after the upcoming lightning and heat revisions. It is stated that Volgin's rubber suit allows him to generate 10 million volts at will for combat, and he fought Naked Snake wearing it.
There is also the feat of Raiden halting Outer Haven, which has a KE calc of 8-A. The speed in the calc is probably exagerated as it uses the maximum reported speed, when there is limited distance to build up speed for ramming, and its normal travel speed while being chased by a ship was 3/4th of the maximum speed. If we use half the maximum speed we get 8-B, and if we use a quarter of the maximum speed we get High 8-C.
We should probably try to conclude LS ASAP to move toward other things:
The Peace Walker feats would normally be great, but later on there is an important story cutscene where Kaz explicitly says that it would be impossible to move a 500 ton mech a few meters into a water with a timeframe of a few minutes, and a frustrated Big Boss makes no attempt to do so and instead tries to negotiate with the Pentagon. There is a clear gameplay and story segregation, and story probably takes priority.
The fire trucks were tossed one by one, so that is likely Class 25, possibly Class 50 if the trucks are especially heavy. And the trucks are ironicly on fire, so it is possible that the trucks were launched via pyrokinesis rather than muscle strength.
An arguments could be made that Fox was holding back, but I think the Gray Fox scaling is good enough and the Twin Snakes cutscene is supporting feat. But there is still an issue with scaling with Big Boss due to the Peace Walker story anti-feat; Solid Snake is a genetically modified super soldier clone, and it is plausible for Ocelot to acquire augmentations.
- 61,134
- 14,617
Using LS = AP
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,945
- 7,538
that's literally just a Plot Contrivance.
- 14,562
- 11,609
From what? KE feats? Because we haven't.
Or PE feats? Because we haven't done that either.
If you're insinuating that LS=/=AP, you'd be right, of course lifting something doesn't translate directly to AP, unless said thing in question is also hitting you with quantifiable KE. And PE, well that just depends on how high you lift or launch it.
We already went over this. An argument can't be made actually, we know how big Outer Haven is based on that, at minimum, Solid had to of covered 100s of meters and then an extra 20km, this is a stated distance and he had to escape OH as a whole (the entre foundation was leveled). That's our minimum, if anything it's a lowend as Drago says "from here", and he wasn't exactly at the edge of Outer heaven. The timeframe is recognized in game as canon. The only issue is how much exactly, though, a lot of it is scripted. Are you actually still on about that? Unlike the Death Stranding calc, we have a canon timeframe plus a canon distance, stated in game. It's not comparable at all, Death Stranding's speed calc has more in common with that old Young Link calc for running around clock town.
I swear to God, have you even read the thread?
Launching something several hundred meters isnt the same as a bench press. You can lift a few kg, but you sure as hell cant launch it several hundred meters into the sky. There's a way to calculate LS off this mind you, a good example would be Garp's feat. Arguing it's done via Pyrokinetics is even better, as it'd scale to Venom instead.
No it can't? Gray Fox didn't hold back, his whole purpose was to go all out and fight Snake to the death. Solid Snake is a genetically INFERIOR close to Big Boss, he's modified, but not in anyway that's good. Ocelot's only augmentation was taking Liquid's arm. (Unless you're talking about Old Ocelot, in which case, that's even more evidence of Solid scaling to Gray Fox tier Cyborgs).
Also, should mention that the Arsenal Tengu have Exosuits too, and Solid fought Mr.X offscreen, another cyborg ninja.
Or PE feats? Because we haven't done that either.
If you're insinuating that LS=/=AP, you'd be right, of course lifting something doesn't translate directly to AP, unless said thing in question is also hitting you with quantifiable KE. And PE, well that just depends on how high you lift or launch it.
We already went over this. An argument can't be made actually, we know how big Outer Haven is based on that, at minimum, Solid had to of covered 100s of meters and then an extra 20km, this is a stated distance and he had to escape OH as a whole (the entre foundation was leveled). That's our minimum, if anything it's a lowend as Drago says "from here", and he wasn't exactly at the edge of Outer heaven. The timeframe is recognized in game as canon. The only issue is how much exactly, though, a lot of it is scripted. Are you actually still on about that? Unlike the Death Stranding calc, we have a canon timeframe plus a canon distance, stated in game. It's not comparable at all, Death Stranding's speed calc has more in common with that old Young Link calc for running around clock town.
I swear to God, have you even read the thread?
Launching something several hundred meters isnt the same as a bench press. You can lift a few kg, but you sure as hell cant launch it several hundred meters into the sky. There's a way to calculate LS off this mind you, a good example would be Garp's feat. Arguing it's done via Pyrokinetics is even better, as it'd scale to Venom instead.
No it can't? Gray Fox didn't hold back, his whole purpose was to go all out and fight Snake to the death. Solid Snake is a genetically INFERIOR close to Big Boss, he's modified, but not in anyway that's good. Ocelot's only augmentation was taking Liquid's arm. (Unless you're talking about Old Ocelot, in which case, that's even more evidence of Solid scaling to Gray Fox tier Cyborgs).
Also, should mention that the Arsenal Tengu have Exosuits too, and Solid fought Mr.X offscreen, another cyborg ninja.
Last edited:
- 61,134
- 14,617
Ah yeah that was probably t, i was thinking it was Thor listing the world serpent
- 14,562
- 11,609
Actually, Solid Snake can explicitly break out of cyborg tech holds and grapples, so toss that into the pile.
Abstractions
Femur Breaker
VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Human Resources
- 2,625
- 2,698
I'll go over these in a set order to keep it concise.
The entirety of the fight has him demanding Snake to hurt him more, he's asking to be hurt and killing Snake would be counter-intuitive to this goal, there's also the fact that after the very cutscene you reference to him being thrown by Snake we see him moving so fast that Snake cannot even see him move. This highlights multiple issues in the narrative of him being serious:
When you take these and add on the fact Gray Fox is asking for punishment by requesting Snake to hurt him, it's very clear to the player that Gray Fox is holding back because in a battle to the death, he is the one that wants to die.
One could also say Gray Fox was then later pinned by the head of the REX which would weigh less than the stomping force of the feet, but he was clearly injured at that point so I won't argue it.
Either way, I don't think Snake scales to Gray Fox for those reasons.
As we've gone over, this is invalidated by the Peace Walker cutscene where Boss explicitly tries to negotiate that the nukes aren't real instead of using his absurd strength to tip the mech over into the water. Arguing this from the standpoint of needed character development on Boss' part when his current character wanted to stop it would tell you that argument doesn't work. It would be a break of character for him to not do it, which should be all the reason you need to know that the feats aren't valid. No amount of "it does work actually" changes this very fact.
Some of course will try to argue that Gray Fox wasn't holding back because he wanted to fight to the death, but what people are missing in that fact is that Gray Fox himself wanted to die to Snake.
The entirety of the fight has him demanding Snake to hurt him more, he's asking to be hurt and killing Snake would be counter-intuitive to this goal, there's also the fact that after the very cutscene you reference to him being thrown by Snake we see him moving so fast that Snake cannot even see him move. This highlights multiple issues in the narrative of him being serious:
- We consistently see Gray Fox move FTE within the game, it is only when fighting Snake that we are shown him moving at a reasonable pace until he loses control a bit. If he has shown the capacity to move much faster than his opponent that we know he wants to kill, why doesn't he do it?
- Gray Fox when going invisible will taunt Snake to come find him, this is stalling for no reason and is intentionally putting himself in danger. If you hold a tactical advantage in a serious fight, why are you going out of your way to stall and give away where you are?
When you take these and add on the fact Gray Fox is asking for punishment by requesting Snake to hurt him, it's very clear to the player that Gray Fox is holding back because in a battle to the death, he is the one that wants to die.
One could also say Gray Fox was then later pinned by the head of the REX which would weigh less than the stomping force of the feet, but he was clearly injured at that point so I won't argue it.
Either way, I don't think Snake scales to Gray Fox for those reasons.
Are we just going to ignore that it was Psycho Mantis' intent to target the player's controller with his ability and not Snake directly? He also wasn't being completely serious and was just demonstrating his abilities at that point, this is just Breaking the 4th Wall at its finest and its dishonest to think it directly applies to Snake.
Last edited:
- 61,134
- 14,617
Yes i brought them up already lol
- 15,693
- 12,017
I'm pretty sure Percy Jackson also got downgraded because his LS feat no longer worked for AP
- 15,693
- 12,017
It's also worth mentioning Fox calling it "a battle to the death" isn't a lie... he's just omitting whose death he seeks.
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #916
And as I've said, PIS. Why are you acting like a single instance of a plot required limitation is enough to completely thwart 5 feats? Since when have we put a single instance of PIS over multiple feats throughout a series
You are making no sense on this point. what do you even mean? I'm not arguing that it would be in-character for Snake to not push PW, I'm stating (not even arguing, it's basically factual) that HAD SNAKE PUSHED PW a HUGE chunk of the Metal Gear plot wouldn't make sense because the inciting accident behind Big Boss' villainy wouldn't be there, and this is a fact. Of course it's out of character for him to not push PW, but it's also out of character for him to, like, not kick open his cell door in MGS3 (and no matter how hard you wanna downgrade MG, you can't argue that Snake can't kick open a cell door, come on), but both of these things were necessary to the plot/gameplay.
Not really, what's counter intuitive to your point is the fact that Gray Fox runs away just as Snake would kill him, why do that if he only wanted to die? Him demanding to be hurt doesn't really prove anything other than that he's completely unhinged
while yes, this is true, it's also true that in that case Gray Fox is basically using travel speed to quickly run and jump around the room, this is hardly indicative of combat speed.
Consistently? I'm not sure it even happens in the OG, and the only other case I can think of in TTS us when you can't see his arm move while he deflects bullets, which we don't even know if Snake can't actually see or if it's just a stylish thing. In TTS Snake fights on equal footing with Gray Fox right after he has his "shaking fit", that would equate to "him losing control". It's also worth noting that all this FTE business is absolutely not present in the og, while Snake fighting with Gray Fox "to the death" and beating him is.
Uuuhhh because he wanted to? Since when someone "taunting his opponent" means that he's not serious? FFS, Sam in MGR goes out of his way to incapacitate himself in a fight where he's already at a disadvantage just to taunt Raiden, but this doesn't mean that he wasn't serious. While yes, Gray Fox is nowhere near as big of a taunter as Sam, we know that he's not above a bit of sass. The reason why he wouldn't use his stealth camo is the same reason why he wouldn't use his sword, he wants a fight to the death, but he wants it to be honourable.
The asking for punishment thing isn't proof o him strictly wanting to die, again, it's mostly proof of him being unhinged and in a sort of battle high. The idea that Gray Fox went in nerfed because he wanted to die is also contradicted by him saying stuff like "I will kill you... or you will kill me... it makes no difference" or "Make me feel alive again". What's made very clear by these quotes is that Gray Fox is looking for a fair fight with a formidable opponent, and him asking for "punishment" isn't enough to prove that he went into the fight only wanting to die and thus wasn't even trying.
But Psycho mantis' 4th wall breaks double as effects on Snake, and this is displayed by Mantis' mind reading effecting Snake and being demonstrated via reading the memory card, or by the fact that "switching the controller port" canonically causes Snake's mind to "become a blank slate", and on top of all of this, one of MGS' biggest points is equating Snake to the player, and giving in-game explainations for 4th-walls-breaking things; also, as I've said, in TTS we are outright shown Mantis' "controller shaking" effecting Snake himself. Him not being "completely serious" is not really an argument because even if we accept that he was not using all of his power (he was clearly trying to demonstrate the height of his powers to Snake and trying to impress him if not outright kill him), he was clearly showing far more exhertion here than he was when he was lifting Sahel, on top of him being more powerful and skilled at controlling his powers than his young self.
- 2,667
- 775
- Thread starter
- #917
More like class 50, and throwing them thousands of feet into the air at high speeds would likely bump them up at Class K; not Class M, but I never claimed it to be, I merely presented this feat as evidence of the Class M stuff not being "the only thing of this magnitude in the verse". Also, you can literally hear TMOF grunting as he throws the truck, it being on fire is most likely due to The Man on Fire... being on fire himself, and even if it was pirokinesis, it would scale to Mantis', since TMOF's powers are just Mantis'.
Abstractions
Femur Breaker
VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Human Resources
- 2,625
- 2,698
Not PIS, but a pivotal plot moment. Are we to assume the Boss' sacrifice following this is PIS as well because it comes soon after? How are you the sole arbiter as to what's considered PIS and what's not? Is it because it doesn't suit your narrative.
Take a good look at the bolded portion here, what you are basically saying is had Big Boss done the in-character thing to do then the Metal Gear plot wouldn't make sense, do you not see how this supports my argument of Class M breaking the setting?
Gray Fox running away? You mean his psychotic episode? You mean the very thing that pushed him beyond rhyme or reason for a moment? That doesn't disprove my point at all.
Any instance of him blocking bullets would be him doing his FTE thing, the fact that he didn't do it until his episode in his fight with Snake is a clear indication of holding back and you actually cannot disprove that.
"Uuuhh because he wanted to?" Is not an argument, neither is a bit of sass.
He wants to be hurt because he wants to feel alive in pain and death, your quote of him saying "it makes no difference" proves fundamentally nothing because you aren't tackling him clearly omitting his true motive.
Uhm, he's directly targeting the controller, he's explicitly attempting to target the player alone and not Snake.
Using a singular line from the Colonel when he means that in a metaphorical sense isn't proof of anything.
It actually is a perfectly reasonable argument, he's being flashy and over-the-top like the rest of the game is, the fact he outright tells you it was demonstration above all else shows that he was holding back his power and you can't exactly change that.
It doesn't scale. Simple.
- 14,562
- 11,609
First off, nobody is saying LS feats are AP feats. Don't act like that's what's happening here. It's a little different when the LS feat is also you halting or grappling with the KE of a few hundred/thousand ton mecha slamming its ass on you at high speeds, or simply overpowering the mecha in question in a contest of strength (See TP Link Vs. Ganon). Stopping a car dead in its tracks is a LS feat as well as a AP feat due to KE, same logic applies here. This would only work if we decide to throw out KE feats as well.
---------------------
And Gray Fox himself says that they'll fight and one of us will die, it doesnt matter who, though it is true he wanted to die, that doesn't mean he was gonna just let it happen. He didnt hold back, not in the slightest, other then opting to not use his sword anyway, but that's even better, it tells us directly it was a all physical death match, with him ending up losing in the end. (Not like Null wasnt a thing mind you). Gray Fox wanted to die to Snake, he still didn't hold back as he wanted it to be an honorable duel to the death between two warriors who know only of war, not mutually exclusive, in fact he even tries to kill Snake a few times in their matches and exchanges so it aint like he wasn't trying to land lethal blows.
Yes which is why he tries to slice Snake's head off at least twice in their first encounter. he wanted to be hurt because it made him feel alive again, I mean, if you want a more recent example, Raiden going ripper mode in Rising is basically this but new. You are actually arguing that the cyborg blood knight who went insane asking Snake to hurt him more in their hand to hand death match means he wasnt trying? He was serious, this was established, Snake consistently keeps up with him throughout the game, he consistently is shown comparable speeds. see below.
You do know half the FTE moments are actually optic camo? Assuming you're talking about the times where he slices off Ocelot's hand or escapes, etc. As Gray Fox is equipped with a full body optic camo and we see him activate it in all those (as well as see his model just with the camo effect), and there's cutscenes where Snake does react when Gray Fox is going "FTE".
Actually I even double checked, in MGS1, after his fight Solid, he actives his full body camo first before leaving, that's why he can't be seen. When he cuts off Ocelot's hand, he has his camo active too, only deactivating it when Ocelot literally says "Stealth Camouflage". He also turns his camo back on again when he jumps away (you can literally see his ass run out of the room, just "invisible"). In MGS1, FTE Gray Fox never happens to Solid that I could find.
In TS a few times of Gray Fox being shown to be what could be said to be FTE to Snake is in the Ocelot room, when he slices the ceiling, but at the same time, that's ignoring Snake just moments before dodged a sword slash from him that sliced a steel beam with said sword strike aimed at Snake's head, (with Gray Fox's reactions being what seems to be a bit a surprise that he just did that), dodges Gray Fox's kick (done at the same time as he's dodging a bullet), And then right after the "fte slash", Solid flips over the debris Gray Fox kicks at him, and manages to do a roll and avoid Gray Fox's running sword strike that was intended for Snake's head, only for Snake to then sweep Gray Fox off his feet, a bit more action and it ends with both of them holding each other at gun/sword point as they both managed to be just as fast on the draw. And then Gray Fox backs up, puts on his camo and runs away. At speeds that can be seen. I mean, if you're going to argue Gray Fox wasn't trying to kill Solid, even though he tried slicing his head off like, two times at minimum, likely three, in that very fight, I dont know what to tell you here.
Unless you mean in Twin Snakes where Gray Fox slices up the room/lock at FTE speeds, you may have had a point, then I realized this was likely from Hal's POV and if you look closely Snake actually follows the slashes and even looks to where the next slash appears before it does a few frames ahead of time in several instances (at least in two instances in one pan), meaning, yes, Snake likely isn't having issues following the FTE Gray Fox. As if that wasn't obvious by the two fights he has with him where he's dodging his strikes and sword slashes and fighting at comparable speeds, even outspeeding Gray Fox at points.
The worst part is, if you take Twin Snakes and use that, Snake is consistently shown dodging a serious Gray Fox, being shown at comparable speeds, attacking at the same speed as him in their fight (Gray Fox has an afterimage filter on his attacks, but he still aint any faster than Snake), and demonstrably kicks Gray Fox's ass to the point we can hear Gray Fox's shock and pain. Or, if we use MGS1, FTE Gray Fox isnt real (at least to Solid) and Snake can keep up with him just fine. So pick your poison because either way, Snake is consistently fighting a Gray Fox who's going all out bar his sword and Snake is physically overpowering him and visibly hurting him (mind you that's why he has his outburst at the end, his nerve endings are ****** up and not connected properly to the exosuit, Snake kicked his ass so hard it fried his suit a bit and made him have a outburst).
Kinda just outed yourself there, he has optic camo, every single time in the original is camo, he can show up FTE at points in TS, but Solid can still react to him when doing so. He's a blood knight, he still aint holding back, this is basically confirmed, he wants to die, but he wants to die at the hands of Snake in one last duel to the death. Leaving out the context of he just doesn't want to keel over and let himself die, he wants to go out with honor. This is like saying The Boss wasn't trying at all in her match with Big Boss because she wanted to die, it's true, but she still went all out even if she wanted death.
Also hol up? Are you saying that Gray Fox shouldn't let Snake know where he is when using his camo? He's a BLOOD KNIGHT, he was having fun, he literally says at that start "make me feel alive again!", because, as he says later on, the only time he could feel truly alive was in a life or death battle, on the battlefield, that's all he ever knew. So yeah, him telling Snake to hurt him more and him prolonging it doesn't mean he wasn't trying, excuse my mention of DBZ again (this one is fair all things considered), but this is like Goku being serious in a fight even though he has fun and does acts to prolong and **** around a bit while in those fights, we literally know why he did those things, he wanted one last battle against Snake where both could be true warriors and he could die without regrets as he got in that one last blood match against his old friend.
But yeah, he held back against Snake because that definitely doesn't go against everything he wanted, his ideals, his beliefs, his backstory and so on. That last sentence was sarcasm.
Maybe if you ignore literally everything that says he's not holding back including what is basically confirmation he's going all out. He wants to die, he's still trying and going all out, dont act like it's one or the other, because it aint, it's both. This isn't even an uncommon trope, the "warrior who fights to be defeated and die against a worth foe" is common as ****, isn't Akuma from SF that too?
It wasn't the weight that was the issue there, more like the broken bones, ****** nerve endings, the fact he just his arm sliced off and unlike Raiden who has pain inhibitors, he feels pain, really, really, badly (thanks paramedic). I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did after getting his arm sliced off. And actually, there's the very real possibility of REX scaling to Sahel in regards to strength in general (there's a reason why Sahel has a REX mode).
What reasons? Optic camo? FTE that Snake still reacts to? Gray Fox himself basically confirming he's going all out. Snake still physically overpowering him and causing the dude enough damage to where it leads to a massive outburst and he's on his knees smashing his head?
Or the other several times Snake fights cyborg tech and ninjas who are going all out too?
There's no way you actually believe this, in MGS1, FTE Gray Fox isn't a thing, it's all camo. In Twin Snakes, it exists, but its also clearly established Snake can contend with him and are basically the same speed comparatively and that he's actually trying. Plus Snake consistently keeping up with cyborgs and cyborg tech in strength and speed, at least till MGS4 Raiden cybernetics become a thing, in which he's pretty outclassed by that point.
Solid can also contend physically with cyborg tech in MGS4, even break out of grapples and overpower it, trading it blow for blow. So like, there's no reason to assume Snake isnt on par with Gray Fox, everything says he is, among other things.
He was being serious, at least, way more than you're implying, he was getting pissed off that Snake didn't believe in his powers, and that's without getting into the fact he already tried killing Snake and immediately after, tried killing Snake, I don't think for this one brief instance he suddenly wasn't trying to hurt Snake.
Yes, he was demonstrating his abilities, one of which is his telekinetic prowess (I mean he literally says "Now I'll show you my psychoKINETIC powers!" in both MGS1 and TS, so it not being TK is basically thrown out the window). It applies directly to Snake when the game explicitly shows Snake holding his ground against said telekinetic attacks. Mantis vibrates the controller, sure, but also attacks Snake at the same time with TK, this also doubles as confirmation and expansion. What's dishonest is acting like this was just a lol funny 4th wallbreak, when there's more to it then that (also acting like Mantis being a 4th wallbreaking character somehow means he cant be scaled if said 4th wallbreaks have in universe explanations or in-universe effects).
So yeah, not happening, we aren't going to ignore the very explicit TK pushes (stated to be psychokinetic in both games) used on Snake by the psychokinetic psychopath who wants to torture and murder who's literally just there to kill as many people as possible because he was doing a 4th wall break at the same time as per his character, ignoring the fact he was also doing something in verse as well. Like, we SEE him use TK pushes on Snake and he SAYS he's using TK. I'm not sure what the issue is other than it also being a haha funny.
--------------------------
If there is I'd like to see it. I looked through the lifting strength tags and found nothing.
tldr.
Gray Fox is a bloodknight, him having fun is in character and him fighting even to die is in character.
You trying to say "it was a serious fight so why wouldn't he be a cheap asshole" ignores the context of the character, this is Gray Fox we're talking about, he loves 1v1 death matches, ever since childhood, hell in MG2 he goes from being inside MG blowing up and igniting everything in the area, just to walk it off and force Solid into a fist fight inside a mine field and ends up "dying", all for the sake of it basically.
Snake still consistently keeps up with his ass and overpowers him and even hurts him to a pretty big extent, which kinda invalidates everything you just said because we're talking physicals and you kinda cant just hold back on durability of all things, which already shows Snake has the strength needed to put Gray Fox in his place, unless you want to argue it's JUST AP, but that doesn't work like that in MG, not to mention the only way that would work is if Solid was faster, but you're arguing the complete opposite so....
Snake can contend with cyborg tech in other games in a strictly physical manner, even grappling it and breaking out of it so him doing it with early proto tech in the form of Gray Fox isn't even a one time thing.
If we go MGS1 route, FTE Gray Fox to Snake doesnt exist, and in Twin Snakes, there's so many examples of Snake keeping up with him this shouldn't even be open to discussion. Also a lot of the times are just octocamo.
I'm not even sure if Gray Fox is any faster in his exosuit, even as a kid he was shown FTE in cutscenes and swung his blade faster than what people can see, slicing bullets and all that fun stuff. He promptly went on to get his ass kicked by Big Boss and then Solid in MG2. Though this point is conjecture, I'm not hundred percent on this one.
Gray Fox's wish is literally one last all out death match with Snake, not to "simply die to him", kinda leaving out the context of his wanted death.
Gray Fox straight up tries to murder Snake at least four times while fighting so uh, not holding back clearly (hell the fact Snake CAN literally die while fighting him should be evidence enough, it aint like the game isnt keen on scripted or fake outs).
We literally see Psycho Mantis use TK pushes on Snake and Snake, while he budges a bit, manages to hold his ground, controller or not, TK was being used on Solid as well. It being a demonstration means jack shit considering the dude in question and his "other demonstrations" that we see, minus the memory card shit but that was a nonlethal thing.
---------------------
And Gray Fox himself says that they'll fight and one of us will die, it doesnt matter who, though it is true he wanted to die, that doesn't mean he was gonna just let it happen. He didnt hold back, not in the slightest, other then opting to not use his sword anyway, but that's even better, it tells us directly it was a all physical death match, with him ending up losing in the end. (Not like Null wasnt a thing mind you). Gray Fox wanted to die to Snake, he still didn't hold back as he wanted it to be an honorable duel to the death between two warriors who know only of war, not mutually exclusive, in fact he even tries to kill Snake a few times in their matches and exchanges so it aint like he wasn't trying to land lethal blows.
Yes which is why he tries to slice Snake's head off at least twice in their first encounter. he wanted to be hurt because it made him feel alive again, I mean, if you want a more recent example, Raiden going ripper mode in Rising is basically this but new. You are actually arguing that the cyborg blood knight who went insane asking Snake to hurt him more in their hand to hand death match means he wasnt trying? He was serious, this was established, Snake consistently keeps up with him throughout the game, he consistently is shown comparable speeds. see below.
You do know half the FTE moments are actually optic camo? Assuming you're talking about the times where he slices off Ocelot's hand or escapes, etc. As Gray Fox is equipped with a full body optic camo and we see him activate it in all those (as well as see his model just with the camo effect), and there's cutscenes where Snake does react when Gray Fox is going "FTE".
Actually I even double checked, in MGS1, after his fight Solid, he actives his full body camo first before leaving, that's why he can't be seen. When he cuts off Ocelot's hand, he has his camo active too, only deactivating it when Ocelot literally says "Stealth Camouflage". He also turns his camo back on again when he jumps away (you can literally see his ass run out of the room, just "invisible"). In MGS1, FTE Gray Fox never happens to Solid that I could find.
In TS a few times of Gray Fox being shown to be what could be said to be FTE to Snake is in the Ocelot room, when he slices the ceiling, but at the same time, that's ignoring Snake just moments before dodged a sword slash from him that sliced a steel beam with said sword strike aimed at Snake's head, (with Gray Fox's reactions being what seems to be a bit a surprise that he just did that), dodges Gray Fox's kick (done at the same time as he's dodging a bullet), And then right after the "fte slash", Solid flips over the debris Gray Fox kicks at him, and manages to do a roll and avoid Gray Fox's running sword strike that was intended for Snake's head, only for Snake to then sweep Gray Fox off his feet, a bit more action and it ends with both of them holding each other at gun/sword point as they both managed to be just as fast on the draw. And then Gray Fox backs up, puts on his camo and runs away. At speeds that can be seen. I mean, if you're going to argue Gray Fox wasn't trying to kill Solid, even though he tried slicing his head off like, two times at minimum, likely three, in that very fight, I dont know what to tell you here.
Unless you mean in Twin Snakes where Gray Fox slices up the room/lock at FTE speeds, you may have had a point, then I realized this was likely from Hal's POV and if you look closely Snake actually follows the slashes and even looks to where the next slash appears before it does a few frames ahead of time in several instances (at least in two instances in one pan), meaning, yes, Snake likely isn't having issues following the FTE Gray Fox. As if that wasn't obvious by the two fights he has with him where he's dodging his strikes and sword slashes and fighting at comparable speeds, even outspeeding Gray Fox at points.
The worst part is, if you take Twin Snakes and use that, Snake is consistently shown dodging a serious Gray Fox, being shown at comparable speeds, attacking at the same speed as him in their fight (Gray Fox has an afterimage filter on his attacks, but he still aint any faster than Snake), and demonstrably kicks Gray Fox's ass to the point we can hear Gray Fox's shock and pain. Or, if we use MGS1, FTE Gray Fox isnt real (at least to Solid) and Snake can keep up with him just fine. So pick your poison because either way, Snake is consistently fighting a Gray Fox who's going all out bar his sword and Snake is physically overpowering him and visibly hurting him (mind you that's why he has his outburst at the end, his nerve endings are ****** up and not connected properly to the exosuit, Snake kicked his ass so hard it fried his suit a bit and made him have a outburst).
Kinda just outed yourself there, he has optic camo, every single time in the original is camo, he can show up FTE at points in TS, but Solid can still react to him when doing so. He's a blood knight, he still aint holding back, this is basically confirmed, he wants to die, but he wants to die at the hands of Snake in one last duel to the death. Leaving out the context of he just doesn't want to keel over and let himself die, he wants to go out with honor. This is like saying The Boss wasn't trying at all in her match with Big Boss because she wanted to die, it's true, but she still went all out even if she wanted death.
Also hol up? Are you saying that Gray Fox shouldn't let Snake know where he is when using his camo? He's a BLOOD KNIGHT, he was having fun, he literally says at that start "make me feel alive again!", because, as he says later on, the only time he could feel truly alive was in a life or death battle, on the battlefield, that's all he ever knew. So yeah, him telling Snake to hurt him more and him prolonging it doesn't mean he wasn't trying, excuse my mention of DBZ again (this one is fair all things considered), but this is like Goku being serious in a fight even though he has fun and does acts to prolong and **** around a bit while in those fights, we literally know why he did those things, he wanted one last battle against Snake where both could be true warriors and he could die without regrets as he got in that one last blood match against his old friend.
But yeah, he held back against Snake because that definitely doesn't go against everything he wanted, his ideals, his beliefs, his backstory and so on. That last sentence was sarcasm.
Maybe if you ignore literally everything that says he's not holding back including what is basically confirmation he's going all out. He wants to die, he's still trying and going all out, dont act like it's one or the other, because it aint, it's both. This isn't even an uncommon trope, the "warrior who fights to be defeated and die against a worth foe" is common as ****, isn't Akuma from SF that too?
It wasn't the weight that was the issue there, more like the broken bones, ****** nerve endings, the fact he just his arm sliced off and unlike Raiden who has pain inhibitors, he feels pain, really, really, badly (thanks paramedic). I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did after getting his arm sliced off. And actually, there's the very real possibility of REX scaling to Sahel in regards to strength in general (there's a reason why Sahel has a REX mode).
What reasons? Optic camo? FTE that Snake still reacts to? Gray Fox himself basically confirming he's going all out. Snake still physically overpowering him and causing the dude enough damage to where it leads to a massive outburst and he's on his knees smashing his head?
Or the other several times Snake fights cyborg tech and ninjas who are going all out too?
There's no way you actually believe this, in MGS1, FTE Gray Fox isn't a thing, it's all camo. In Twin Snakes, it exists, but its also clearly established Snake can contend with him and are basically the same speed comparatively and that he's actually trying. Plus Snake consistently keeping up with cyborgs and cyborg tech in strength and speed, at least till MGS4 Raiden cybernetics become a thing, in which he's pretty outclassed by that point.
Solid can also contend physically with cyborg tech in MGS4, even break out of grapples and overpower it, trading it blow for blow. So like, there's no reason to assume Snake isnt on par with Gray Fox, everything says he is, among other things.
He was being serious, at least, way more than you're implying, he was getting pissed off that Snake didn't believe in his powers, and that's without getting into the fact he already tried killing Snake and immediately after, tried killing Snake, I don't think for this one brief instance he suddenly wasn't trying to hurt Snake.
Yes, he was demonstrating his abilities, one of which is his telekinetic prowess (I mean he literally says "Now I'll show you my psychoKINETIC powers!" in both MGS1 and TS, so it not being TK is basically thrown out the window). It applies directly to Snake when the game explicitly shows Snake holding his ground against said telekinetic attacks. Mantis vibrates the controller, sure, but also attacks Snake at the same time with TK, this also doubles as confirmation and expansion. What's dishonest is acting like this was just a lol funny 4th wallbreak, when there's more to it then that (also acting like Mantis being a 4th wallbreaking character somehow means he cant be scaled if said 4th wallbreaks have in universe explanations or in-universe effects).
So yeah, not happening, we aren't going to ignore the very explicit TK pushes (stated to be psychokinetic in both games) used on Snake by the psychokinetic psychopath who wants to torture and murder who's literally just there to kill as many people as possible because he was doing a 4th wall break at the same time as per his character, ignoring the fact he was also doing something in verse as well. Like, we SEE him use TK pushes on Snake and he SAYS he's using TK. I'm not sure what the issue is other than it also being a haha funny.
--------------------------
If there is I'd like to see it. I looked through the lifting strength tags and found nothing.
tldr.
Gray Fox is a bloodknight, him having fun is in character and him fighting even to die is in character.
You trying to say "it was a serious fight so why wouldn't he be a cheap asshole" ignores the context of the character, this is Gray Fox we're talking about, he loves 1v1 death matches, ever since childhood, hell in MG2 he goes from being inside MG blowing up and igniting everything in the area, just to walk it off and force Solid into a fist fight inside a mine field and ends up "dying", all for the sake of it basically.
Snake still consistently keeps up with his ass and overpowers him and even hurts him to a pretty big extent, which kinda invalidates everything you just said because we're talking physicals and you kinda cant just hold back on durability of all things, which already shows Snake has the strength needed to put Gray Fox in his place, unless you want to argue it's JUST AP, but that doesn't work like that in MG, not to mention the only way that would work is if Solid was faster, but you're arguing the complete opposite so....
Snake can contend with cyborg tech in other games in a strictly physical manner, even grappling it and breaking out of it so him doing it with early proto tech in the form of Gray Fox isn't even a one time thing.
If we go MGS1 route, FTE Gray Fox to Snake doesnt exist, and in Twin Snakes, there's so many examples of Snake keeping up with him this shouldn't even be open to discussion. Also a lot of the times are just octocamo.
I'm not even sure if Gray Fox is any faster in his exosuit, even as a kid he was shown FTE in cutscenes and swung his blade faster than what people can see, slicing bullets and all that fun stuff. He promptly went on to get his ass kicked by Big Boss and then Solid in MG2. Though this point is conjecture, I'm not hundred percent on this one.
Gray Fox's wish is literally one last all out death match with Snake, not to "simply die to him", kinda leaving out the context of his wanted death.
Gray Fox straight up tries to murder Snake at least four times while fighting so uh, not holding back clearly (hell the fact Snake CAN literally die while fighting him should be evidence enough, it aint like the game isnt keen on scripted or fake outs).
We literally see Psycho Mantis use TK pushes on Snake and Snake, while he budges a bit, manages to hold his ground, controller or not, TK was being used on Solid as well. It being a demonstration means jack shit considering the dude in question and his "other demonstrations" that we see, minus the memory card shit but that was a nonlethal thing.
- 14,562
- 11,609
What caused his episode? Why did he run away? How does this do anything but counter your point? It does more than just disprove your point.
Except that time where Gray Fox dodges a bullet and kicks Snake and Snake reacts to him dodging a bullet and doing his kick simultaneously, all in slowmotion. So, if Gray Fox doing his bullet shit is his FTE shit, then problem solved, we know Snake can react fine.
It's an argument if that's literally why.
His true motive? You mean having one last death match between two warriors going all out pouring their blood, sweat and tears into their final hurrah? It feels like you're just actively ignoring half the shit said in game and Gray Fox's entire character as a whole.
Except when we see him targeting Snake too. Kinda missed that there.
Ignoring Mantis even says himself and justifies some of his actions with in-universe context.
dem·on·stra·tion
/ˌdemənˈstrāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the action or process of showing the existence or truth of something by giving proof or evidence.
"it is not capable of mathematical demonstration"
Where in this does it say being a demonstration means it was using one billionth of his power and it's actually super piss weak compared to the most effortless showing he has quite literally ever done as a character and one of the most casual showings in modern gaming.
It being a demonstration doesn't mean he wasn't actually, you know, trying to showcase the extent of his powers. hell the fact he's actively trying to showcase himself as the world's GREATEST would imply he's putting some amount of effort in it, to, you know, get the point across that he exceeds EVERY OTHER psychokinetic in the world.
Last edited:
- Status
