Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Abstractions]

This is becoming circular.

It does more than just disprove your point.

Unproven.

Except that time where Gray Fox dodges a bullet and kicks Snake and Snake reacts to him dodging a bullet and doing his kick simultaneously, all in slowmotion. So, if Gray Fox doing his bullet shit is his FTE shit, then problem solved, we know Snake can react fine.

His episode disproves this.

It's an argument if that's literally why.

It is not.

His true motive? You mean having one last death match between two warriors going all out pouring their blood, sweat and tears into their final hurrah? It feels like you're just actively ignoring half the shit said in game and Gray Fox's entire character as a whole.

He isn't going all out and you yourself acknowledged this.

Except when we see him targeting Snake too. Kinda missed that there.

Because he's targeting the controller, it's 4th wall breaking.

Where in this does it say being a demonstration means it was using one billionth of his power and it's actually super piss weak compared to the most effortless showing he has quite literally ever done as a character and one of the most casual showings in modern gaming.
It being a demonstration doesn't mean he wasn't actually, you know, trying to showcase the extent of his powers. hell the fact he's actively trying to showcase himself as the world's GREATEST would imply he's putting some amount of effort in it, to, you know, get the point across that he exceeds EVERY OTHER psychokinetic in the world.

By him wanting Snake to be alive to actually see the demonstration. Credentials don't suggest anything.

It doesn't scale. Simple.

You would be correct.

 

[Abstractions]

This matter needs to be settled with votes at this point, otherwise it will go on for another 10 pages.

 

[Chariot190]

Not PIS, but a pivotal plot moment. Are we to assume the Boss' sacrifice following this is PIS as well because it comes soon after? How are you the sole arbiter as to what's considered PIS and what's not? Is it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

PIS often involves the most plot relevant moments, so, not really making a case there. The Boss' sacrifice isn't PIS because it's a matter of her character and is established long before this, technically, yeah, you could call it PIS, but only in the sense for it to happen, PIS actions and sequences had to occur. He ain't, it's just pretty damn obvious it is what it is and multiple people simply just stopped bothering. Also i'd assume he considers it PIS because in that game alone Big Boss benches 3 mechas INCLUDING the mecha in question in a situation that isn't bound to plot induced actions and narrative sequences, which by definition would imply the character who could do it multiple times suddenly not opting to (he doesnt even fail) would be a tad sus.

Take a good look at the bolded portion here, what you are basically saying is had Big Boss done the in-character thing to do then the Metal Gear plot wouldn't make sense, do you not see how this supports my argument of Class M breaking the setting?

In character would actually be his first two courses of action, him trying to gather the paneling to deconstruct the AI and to use for ZEKE is his in character course of action and kinda what he did first.

This is becoming circular.

I'll admit that.

Unproven.

What? Do you need Gray Fox to kick down your door and tell you himself? It's pretty blatant. (Like, I'm pretty sure he even says he's trying to kill snake).

His episode disproves this.

Oh? You'e backpedaling. You said Gray Fox doing his bullet shit is his FTE shit, yet we see, without a shadow of a doubt, that Gray Fox doing his bullet shit is perfectly reactable by Solid and they can fight at said speeds.
I literally went frame by frame and in several instances Snake follows the sword strikes and even looks to where Gray Fox is going to be split seconds before he does. Not to mention the episode doesnt even exist in OG, but we're treating TS and MGS1 equal here, and there's far more than enough to say otherwise, including straight up statements.

It is not.

Cool, it is though.

He isn't going all out and you yourself acknowledged this.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the only thing I said that would give even a slight bit credence to that from what I said is "he didnt use his sword" and the reason he didn't use his sword is because hand to hand is the basis of all combat and is the true most raw basic form of fighting. This isn't even the first time he's done that, there's three other games with him in it, and at least 3 other fights. We know how he acts more or less. (though he's an angsty ************ as a teen).

Because he's targeting the controller, it's 4th wall breaking.

Except we LITERALLY SEE him target Snake too. He's doing both, this shouldnt even be hard to grasp.

By him wanting Snake to be alive to actually see the demonstration. Credentials don't suggest anything.

A demonstration of proof of him being the world's greatest psychokinetic, alive doesn't mean he wouldn't be against shattering his limbs and turning them to dust. But nope, Mantis visibly exerting himself using TK barely makes Snake budge an inch even though he's doing it with intent on proving he's the best in the world.

You would be correct.

You know damn well that was a case of copy pasting. Dont be a smartass.

 

[Chariot190]

This matter needs to be settled with votes at this point, otherwise it will go on for another 10 pages.

I'd rather it actually be argued then it turning into a "lol FRA".

 

[Twellas]

Not PIS, but a pivotal plot moment. Are we to assume the Boss' sacrifice following this is PIS as well because it comes soon after? How are you the sole arbiter as to what's considered PIS and what's not? Is it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

No, The Boss' sacrifice IS THE REASON BEHIND the PIS, because Snake pushing PW into the ocean would make it impossible, and making it impossible makes it impossible for Big Boss to see The Boss' sacrifice etc etc. I'm not the arbiter of anything, I'm showing proof and giving reasoning, you're simply acting like PIS is this thing that doesn't exist in fiction.

Take a good look at the bolded portion here, what you are basically saying is had Big Boss done the in-character thing to do then the Metal Gear plot wouldn't make sense, do you not see how this supports my argument of Class M breaking the setting?

No, I don't, because there are multiple instances of Class M (or around that level) BEING part of the setting, the fact that this one time the established strength of the characters kinda put Kojima into the corner story-wise doesn't mean that the established strength is wrong. Seriously, since when is A SINGLE INSTANCE of the story saying that a character can't do what he's shown to do multiple times enough to just ignore 5 feats?

Any instance of him blocking bullets would be him doing his FTE thing, the fact that he didn't do it until his episode in his fight with Snake is a clear indication of holding back and you actually cannot disprove that.

Uh? You mean the hallway thing? Where we don't even know if it's actually FTE for Snake?

"Uuuhh because he wanted to?" Is not an argument, neither is a bit of sass.

It is, 100%. It's not out of character for Gray Fox to be sassy towards Snake, and him taunting Snake is in no way evidence of him not going all out, if anything yours is not an argument.

He wants to be hurt because he wants to feel alive in pain and death, your quote of him saying "it makes no difference" proves fundamentally nothing because you aren't tackling him clearly omitting his true motive.

No. Him saying "there is no difference if I kill you or if you kill me" is proof that Gray Fox's point wasn't to solely be killed, because if it was, he wouldn't have said that him killing Snake would have been fine. Also, the very fact that Gray Fox presents the possibility of him killing Snake shows that he had absolutely no intention to just let himself die, ****, the fact that THERE EVEN WAS A FIGHT proves that Gray Fox didn't just want to let himself get killed. Also this isn't ******* Dragonball, you can't just nerf yourself by millions of times for ***** and giggles.

Uhm, he's directly targeting the controller, he's explicitly attempting to target the player alone and not Snake.

And controlling "the player alone" means controlling Snake in-character, just like him "reading the memory card to the player alone" translates to him telling Snake what he's thinking and demonstrating that he can read his mind

Using a singular line from the Colonel when he means that in a metaphorical sense isn't proof of anything.

It is. It shows that the 4th-wall-breaking stuff is reflected in the canon. And it clearly isn't metaphorical, since it ******* works

It actually is a perfectly reasonable argument, he's being flashy and over-the-top like the rest of the game is, the fact he outright tells you it was demonstration above all else shows that he was holding back his power and you can't exactly change that.

In what world does the fact that "it's a demonstration" automatically mean that he was holding back? Demonstration as a word simply means that he was showing his powers, and don't forget that Mantis wanted to kill Snake

It doesn't scale. Simple.

It does, simple.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with voting, these walls of text are ******* ridicolous.

 

[Twellas]

Sorry, but what do you expect from such a discussion?

 

[SpookyShadow]

I'm also curious. The OP itself is a wall of text, and downgrades are quite big. And we don't even have anything to vote for anyway, at least for now. It would be just interrupting ongoing discussion and Chariot's/Twellas' research.

 

[Twellas]

You're complaining about "walls of text" under an OP that is almost 8k words long lmao

 

[Armorchompy]

An OP is one post, and if the walls of text were actual discussion, I'd be fine with them, hell they'd be a good thing, but right now yall are just going in a circle throwing subjective arguments at each other. Which is what this whole thing is, subjective.

 

[Twellas]

But it's not, you keep bringing up this idea of "it's all subjective", but this is simply not true, it's not subjective to say that there is no proof to back the idea of Gray Fox being suppressed during his fight with Snake, it's not subjective to say that in Metal Gear Snake and the Player are usually refered to as the same (The cast tells Snake stuff they would be telling the player) and 4th wall breaks have a canonical effect on the in-game world, it's not subjective to say that if almost all of the LS feats in the verse are Class M or around that level, then the ONE statement that says they can't do something Class M is the odd one out.

The conclusions might come down to subjectivity, but they are based on objective elements present in the games, and that's what we are discussing, because a subjective idea that's based on objectively wrong elements shouldn't even be up for voting. And I'm not saying that my side is the one that's objectively correct, I THINK it is, but I can't really know.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I seriously can't believe we're about to downgrade their strength based on PIS.

 

[Armorchompy]

But it's not, you keep bringing up this idea of "it's all subjective", but this is simply not true, it's not subjective to say that there is no proof to back the idea of Gray Fox being suppressed during his fight with Snake, it's not subjective to say that if almost all of the LS feats in the verse are Class M or around that level, then the ONE statement that says they can't do something Class M is the odd one out.

Actually, yes it is, and so is claiming PIS on stuff. By nature, there is no possible way for it to be objective, otherwise we wouldn't even be discussing this.

 

[Twellas]

I... Jesus ******* christ man, how is Snake being equated to the player even POSSIBLY questionable when there's shit like The Boss telling Snake (not the player, SNAKE) to "trust in your instincts as a gamer" in MGS3, or Liquid telling Snake to "Trust your instincts as a soldier... As a gamer... " in MGS1?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We already went over this. An argument can't be made actually, we know how big Outer Haven is based on that, at minimum, Solid had to of covered 100s of meters and then an extra 20km, this is a stated distance and he had to escape OH as a whole (the entre foundation was leveled). That's our minimum, if anything it's a lowend as Drago says "from here", and he wasn't exactly at the edge of Outer heaven. The timeframe is recognized in game as canon. The only issue is how much exactly, though, a lot of it is scripted. Are you actually still on about that? Unlike the Death Stranding calc, we have a canon timeframe plus a canon distance, stated in game. It's not comparable at all, Death Stranding's speed calc has more in common with that old Young Link calc for running around clock town.

And scrutiny was missing, which is necessary to ensure accuracy. If your argument is that Snake likely needed to travelled 20 km to get out of the base, I would agree. If your argument is that Snake definitely travelled 20 km then this is speculative. We are talking about wacky 80s-90s designs, where a building can have a 100 underground floors, so it is possible Building 3 was on the edge and there is no conclusive evidence otherwise.
Where was the timeframe recognized in game as canon? All I see is a gameplay timer, that stops during dialogue. The base issued an evacuation order, so it is reasonable according to you for base command to expect Outer Heaven staff to travel 20 km in 30 seconds?
If Snake can travel so fast, then what is the point of sneaking around, and trying to get around security cameras etc.? What is the point of horses and cars?
If you read the thread you'll know that I was not the first to bring up the Death Stranding calc for comparison. The calc has a more reliable distance (canon in-world map and a destination stated in a cutscene), and a timeframe shown in cutscene rather than just in gameplay.

I swear to God, have you even read the thread?

Yes. I skimmed the pages, and I am aware that the cutscene was brought up. What of it?

Launching something several hundred meters isnt the same as a bench press. You can lift a few kg, but you sure as hell cant launch it several hundred meters into the sky. There's a way to calculate LS off this mind you, a good example would be Garp's feat. Arguing it's done via Pyrokinetics is even better, as it'd scale to Venom instead.

Alright so Class K (possibly M) lifting would be reasonable. Pyrokinesis would scale to Venom Snake's durability instead of his lifting strength.

No it can't? Gray Fox didn't hold back, his whole purpose was to go all out and fight Snake to the death. Solid Snake is a genetically INFERIOR close to Big Boss, he's modified, but not in anyway that's good. Ocelot's only augmentation was taking Liquid's arm. (Unless you're talking about Old Ocelot, in which case, that's even more evidence of Solid scaling to Gray Fox tier Cyborgs).

Also, should mention that the Arsenal Tengu have Exosuits too, and Solid fought Mr.X offscreen, another cyborg ninja.

The one who Gray Fox wanted to die was himself, specifically in battle by Solid Snake's hand, something he believes should have happened during their fight in Zanzibar Land. So Gray Fox giving himself a handicap to make the duel more fair and satisfying is a real possibility; he was definitely not going all-out as he didn't use his sword or arm cannon.
Solid Snake is genetically inferior to Liquid Snake, since he inherited Big Boss' recessive traits while Liquid inherited the dominant traits. Both Solid and Liquid received genetic modification to become super soldiers, and he is not considered inferior to Big Boss; in fact he is considered a legend due to having the reputation of defeating Big Boss and destroying his military nation state twice. Talking about Ocelot after Liquid's psyche takes over, gene therapy is used in the verse to turn normal soldiers into super soldiers and Liquid is obsessed with genetics. Not sure why MGS1 Ocelot would scale to Gray Fox.

Gray Fox's exoskeleton is an unremovable cyborg body, while Tengu exoskeletons are mass produced armor and artificial muscles. No evidence that they scale.

that's literally just a Plot Contrivance.

This is either a bad case of PIS... or the metal gear lifting in gameplay is not meant to be taken seriously (just like the statement explaining that The Patriot having infinite ammo is due to the drum magazine being shaped like an infinite symbol)... or that the lifting in the gameplay got retconned.

 

[Twellas]

This is either a bad case of PIS... or the metal gear lifting in gameplay is not meant to be taken seriously

3 of the feats happen in cutscenes, so I think the former is far more likely, it's basically a textbook definition of a writer writing himself into a corner.

or that the lifting in the gameplay got retconned.

One of the "lifting in gameplay" feats happens after the instance of PIS chronologically speaking, so no, nothing got retconned, and 2 of the feats are from MGS5, which comes after PW. No retcon took place

just like the statement explaining that The Patriot having infinite ammo is due to the drum magazine being shaped like an infinite symbol

I mean... the patriot CANONICALLY has infinite ammo, so...

 

[Abstractions]

No, The Boss' sacrifice IS THE REASON BEHIND the PIS, because Snake pushing PW into the ocean would make it impossible, and making it impossible makes it impossible for Big Boss to see The Boss' sacrifice etc etc. I'm not the arbiter of anything, I'm showing proof and giving reasoning, you're simply acting like PIS is this thing that doesn't exist in fiction.

You haven't shown proof and are arguing from a place of feelings and not facts, you believe it's PIS when the scene itself tells us something he cannot do.

If the whole series would be impossible if Big Boss did the in-character thing to do here, then that shows you that Class M breaks the very game itself.

I bring up votes because I'm not willing to go on and on about the same points over and over when this is the form of rebuttal, it's wasting all of our time.

 

[Twellas]

You haven't shown proof and are arguing from a place of feelings and not facts, you believe it's PIS when the scene itself tells us something he cannot do.

You are literally not even making sense at this point, the definition for PIS that this wiki gives is: "PIS, short for "Plot-Induced Stupidity" is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot", this is almost a textbook definition of this: Snake has and scales to multiple feats above 500 tons, but the game suddenly acts as if he doesn't for the purpose of the plot (I have explained this a thousand times already).

If the whole series would be impossible if Big Boss did the in-character thing to do here, then that shows you that Class M breaks the very game itself.

yeah, this is kinda what happens with PIS, funny uh? It's almost like that's why we "came up" with PIS as a concept to begin with, C R A Z Y

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, this is the most blatant example of PIS I've seen in ages.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just saying, PIS works more for non-video game verses since gameplay and cutscenes usually don't blend together very well. In the case of video games, cutscenes >>> gameplay in terms of PIS.

 

[Abstractions]

(I have explained this a thousand times already).

yeah, this is kinda what happens with PIS, funny uh? It's almost like that's why we "came up" with PIS as a concept to begin with, C R A Z Y

And I have directly explained to you many times as to why it doesn't work.

Crazy that we are willing to do the main character a disservice by having him go against his character for no real reason so the series can happen, as opposed to the reasonable conclusion that he cannot do it which would make everything work perfectly fine?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Just saying, PIS works more for non-video game verses since gameplay and cutscenes usually don't blend together very well. In the case of video games, cutscenes >>> gameplay in terms of PIS.

Just want to say Feats are greater than Statements, especially when Big Boss ends up doing another Mecha Bench Press in the ZEKE Fight, who has Peace Walker's Legs if I remember correctly, which is after he supposedly couldn't lift Peace Walker.

 

[Twellas]

Just saying, PIS works more for non-video game verses since gameplay and cutscenes usually don't blend together very well. In the case of video games, cutscenes >>> gameplay in terms of PIS.

And 3 feats are from cutscenes, so hoorray I guess, and there is 1 gameplay feat literally right after that statement

 

[Twellas]

Crazy that we are willing to do the main character a disservice by having him go against his character for no real reason so the series can happen, as opposed to the reasonable conclusion that he cannot do it which would make everything work perfectly fine?

The conclusion that "he cannot do it" is NOT reasonable, because we ******* see him do stuff like it 2 times, 1 before and 1 after. We cannot just ignore 5 feats to "make everything work fine", you know what else would make everything work just fine? Accepting the fact that this is PIS and NOT ignoring 5 feats

 

[Twellas]

Seriously guys, these feats are almost all of the LS feats from the verse. Are we genuinely going to ignore almost EVERY SINGLE LS FEAT IN THE VERSE because there is 1 case of PIS?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Starkiller/Ender Shadow/Hammer Strike wanted me to inform people he also agrees with the downgrade proposed by Abstractions.

 

[Abstractions]

The conclusion that "he cannot do it" is NOT reasonable, because we ******* see him do stuff like it 2 times, 1 before and 1 after. We cannot just ignore 5 feats to "make everything work fine", you know what else would make everything work just fine? Accepting the fact that this is PIS and NOT ignore 5 feats

It's very reasonable within Peace Walker itself, if lore takes precedence over gameplay when you yourself will use lore to defend TMOF's feat over being run over in gameplay.

The number keeps increasing here, is it 3 or 5? Because the PW feats can easily be written off because of the lore in the very game itself.

I'd say drop the hyperbole because I never made commentary on Gray Fox and Psycho Mantis being PIS, just that they don't scale for very simple reasons.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Starkiller/Ender Shadow/Hammer Strike wanted me to inform people he also agrees with the downgrade proposed by Abstractions.

Why couldn't he have done that himself?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Feats are greater than Statements. Unless we're going back on that now?

 

[Abstractions]

Feats are greater than Statements. Unless we're going back on that now?

Feats can be > Statements but that has no bearing on Lore > Gameplay.

 

[Twellas]

The number keeps increasing here, is it 3 or 5? Because the PW feats can easily be written off because of the lore in the very game itself.

2, probably 3 feats for PW, 6 feats in total. And no, they CANNOT be easily written off, stop it, 2 to 3 feats take priority over a single instance of PIS, stop acting like you can just ignore a game's feats because of one statement

It's very reasonable within Peace Walker itself, if lore takes precedence over gameplay when you yourself will use lore to defend TMOF's feat over being run over in gameplay.

...uh? The **** are you talking about? And there are multiple cutscene feats, so it's not even a gameplay over lore thing, it's gameplay and lore over a single statement

I'd say drop the hyperbole because I never made commentary on Gray Fox and Psycho Mantis being PIS, just that they don't scale for very simple reasons.

Arguing for the downgrade basically means ignoring the other feats. And yes, they scale, this is the single most ******* blatant case of resisting TK i have seen (controller or not, Snake is clearly being effected) and this is the single most blatant case of scaling I have seen, and you've countered it with glorified headcanon

 

[SpookyShadow]

One more can be added, Chariot mentioned it but it's good backup feat.

Old weakened Snake can overpower Liquid Ocelot's nano-arm. Big Boss scales above him of course. So it's pretty consistent, in my opinion.

 

[Abstractions]

2, probably 3 feats for PW, 6 feats in total. And no, they CANNOT be easily written off, stop it, 2 to 3 feats take priority over a single instance of PIS, stop acting like you can just ignore a game's feats because of one statement

Stop downplaying the importance of the scene, you are doing the game a disservice by doing so.

...uh? The **** are you talking about? And there are multiple cutscene feats, so it's not even a gameplay over lore thing, it's gameplay and lore over a single statement

Armorchompy had brought up the fact you could run over the TMOF in gameplay, which was then countered by a lore cutscene.

Are said cutscenes of the Snakes lifting mecha which haven't been brought up ever?

Arguing for the downgrade basically means ignoring the other feats. And yes, they scale, this is the single most ******* blatant case of resisting TK i have seen (controller or not, Snake is clearly being effected) and this is the single most blatant case of scaling I have seen, and you've countered it with glorified headcanon

You are blatantly ignoring the context of those scenes and it's ridiculous that you will continue to bring them up.

Throwing out words like headcanon means nothing because I haven't conjured up some make believe story but have used the game itself to contradict you.

 

[Armorchompy]

One more can be added, Chariot mentioned it but it's good backup feat.

Old weakened Snake can overpower Liquid Ocelot's nano-arm. Big Boss scales above him of course. So it's pretty consistent, in my opinion.

That's scaling, but not a feat in itself.

 

[SpookyShadow]

...so scaling is out of question? I mean, Snake is Big Boss' genetical clone (even more, inferior)

 

[Armorchompy]

No, the scaling logic makes perfect sense, but it's scaling off feats we're already debating, I don't see how that affects their validity.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Uh, not really. It's more about Gray Fox's feat which didn't happen in Peace Walker but in original MGS1, in a cutscene. Liquid's arm would be at similar level.

 

[Chariot190]

No, the scaling logic makes perfect sense, but it's scaling off feats we're already debating, I don't see how that affects their validity.

Unless you're saying Ocelot's nanotech arm is weaker then the prototype **** up that is Gray Fox....

 

[Armorchompy]

Ah, I misunderstood. But Gray Fox is a different beast from Ocelot- he's a full body conversion said to be comparable to MGRR rando enemies (though that scaling is a bit questionable), scaling his LS to an arm not necessarily meant for combat is still a bit questionable.

 

[Chariot190]

Ah, I misunderstood. But Gray Fox is a different beast from Ocelot- he's a full body conversion said to be comparable to MGRR rando enemies (though that scaling is a bit questionable), scaling his LS is still a bit questionable.

Ocelot, using a full fledged cybernetic enhanced arm with over a decade of advancements and explicit upgrades to the tech compared to Grafy Fox, the prototype that had a bunch of **** ups and could barely work and was later worked out and upgraded years later.
No he ******* aint? MGRR random fodder are explicitly stated to be DRASTICALLY above Gray Fox, to the point Gray Fox tech is unusable and ancient. Even the weakest MGRR unit>>>>>Gray Fox.
Scaling his physical strength isnt though when the tech in question >>> Gray Fox's exosuit.