Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

Stop mentioning said list and just post it, you are stalling otherwise.

Yeah, maybe give him time to do so? He just came back

Where are you pulling that value from? Sites like this one indicate that even the larger variant would weigh around 200kgs, even with the round that's still about 234. This is still within Peak Human range.

Can't honestly give you a straight up source, but it's even listed on the wiki, and it makes sense, since it's an extremely high-yield prototype, much more powerful than the real weapon. And can you show me a single human being handling 300 kgs like this?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Slowly walking toward snake? You mean the same Gray Fox who fought Snake at Mach speeds while bullets whizzed by them, who has afterimage filters on all his attacks and proceeds to go mach speeds mid fight? Asking him to hurt him? Uh, yes, and? Bloodknight, wants to feel the thrill of battle again.
Honest question, how many people here have played the MSX games or port ops? Because none of you are even trying to hide the fact you haven't and it's getting annoying debating shit explained in other games. Like, you do know Gray Fox is in other games?
"Once Gray Fox picks a target, he never holds back".

I'm going to be blunt, the very notion of "well Gray Fox was holding back" is ridiculous, it's complete and utter bullshit. We are told he's going all out, we are told he's trying to kill Snake, we are even shown he's trying to kill Snake several times, we are told that he's complete dead set on having a hand to hand death match with Snake, we are told he's completely irrational in this aspect and is tunneled vision on this and will do everything he can to get in this death match (it's quite literally why he helps Snake throughout the game, just so he can get his death match, he himself at one point even says he killed all the soldiers around the area so that nothing would interfere with their death match, hell it's even hinted that he only goes into maximum overdrive when fighting hand to hand), the reason why he throws down his weapon is explained and detailed multiple times over with the reason being that he wants a hand to hand death match like he had in zanzibar land, hand to hand is the most raw form of fighting and he thinks weapons lack honor (he quite literally says this himself, twice) and gray fox is all about the honorable gladiator death match shit, his "make me hurt more" line is explained QUITE LITERALLY in that very scene by he himself, he wants to feel the PAIN of battle again, when he asks Snake to hurt him more it's because he's enjoying the fight and makes him feel alive again as the only thing he ever lived for is the thrill of the fight (this is stated in MULTIPLE GAMES, even later on in this very game) We know from his past that Gray Fox as a rule, never holds back in a fight (to the point it's literally stated he always goes all out and never holds back), this is further detailed as his time as Null when he always goes all out and will do everything he can to fight his target and kill them, albeit after encountering Big Boss he goes about it in a honorable way due to Big Boss inciting such intense emotions in him. And the whole "well he wanted to die to snake" is a half truth at that, it's not like he was just gonna let Snake kill him, no, he very clearly and explicitly wanted, in his own words, even when explaining that he wanted death, makes it clear he wanted to die in a life and death match with Snake with both going all in like in Zanzibar Land, and it's not even "he wanted to die to Snake", that's misleading, the actual context was "he thought Snake was the only person able to kill him" because everybody else sucked dick. I'm honestly baffled at how this is even an actual debate that is happening, there's one thing thinking it's an outlier, but nobody in their right mind can actually think Gray Fox was holding back at all when every single discrepancy is explained and we're told and reiterated multiple times the context, goals and intent of every character involved. Like ****, the ONLY thing that possibly hints at Gray Fox maybe holding back is "well he appears fast at certain points", as if that actually effects if Gray Fox was holding back, especially as it's outright shown Solid is capable of harming him to a good extent physically and the fact Gray Fox doesn't even hold back on his speed in the fight, the ****** still zips around, has afterimages and basically teleports and Solid still manages to kick his face in physically even while Gray Fox is using his superspeed so even if you argue Gray Fox is faster than Snake (tbf I would have maybe agreed, to a extent, if Null didn't exist), he still uses said speed in fight meaning him holding back because he sometimes appears fast in TTS doesn't work because in TTS he USES said speed in the fight so if he's not pulling the single aspect he may be better in, he sure as **** ain't pulling his strength either.

Striking strength doesn't equal lifting strength in general, sure, but there's always at least some correlation, the times it isnt are the exceptions not the rule. But, if you're physically on par with someone, if not above, said person who can lift said things (someone mentioned Gray Fox tossing Rex through the roof at one point, funnily enough, Gray Fox does toss REX and put it on its ass in the ashley wood comic), and there's absolutely zero distinction between lifting strength and striking strength being drastically different (news flash, that isn't how it works, especially in grapple and holds the verse, the only argument here would be that Snake just so happens to hit harder because his strikes are faster than Gray Fox's, otherwise there's zero reason as to why Snake would be able to hit harder, but given its being argued he's SLOWER, you see the issue with that correct? This is without getting into the fact some of gray fox's strength comes from being injected with big boss dna and the perfect soldier program, which actualy lead way to the Genome Soldier project as Gray Fox was used as the experiment, and exosuits? Snake has fought MANY exosuits post MGS1, all of which should be superior to Gray Fox, like, reminder Gray Fox's exosuit was a half baked prototype, that is later built and expanded upon, by the time of 4, even 2, exosuits of varying technologies are in usage, and Snake can kick all their asses physically and grapple them).

No, we don't agree he's weaker than Gray Fox, the fact he can get his face smashed in like two dozen times by Ocelot in MGS4 confirms he ain't as Ocelot's cyborg arm>>whatever Gray Fox has, let alone the fact he can hit Gray Fox so hard we can literally hear the crunching sounds (newton's third law says hi) and Gray Fox is physically harmed by said strikes, and Gray Fox held REX up with little effort with zero damage. I don't think I have to explain the correlation here of how Solid's strikes being enough to make Gray Fox reel in pain and damage puts Solid on his level physically, if not higher.

And congratulations on bringing up something that was already talked about pages ago, you've read the thread right? That was rhetorical, unless you got something new to add don't bother. (Ignoring that Solid actually does manage to get out immediately after with seemingly little effort, sure as hell wasnt due to Meryl given he's helping her out, not to mention that sequence is removed in all following versions of the story, from TTS to even the Digital comic by Ashley Wood, featured in the Legacy Collection having him being under the jeep gone and instead has him face to face with Liquid which im lowkey certain is referenced in mgs4).

On a different note, hey, found another good LS feat (likely three and a half actually). Hell found a bunch of other feats too ranging from mindhax resistance, massive heat resistance, more radiation resistance, social influencing resistance, precog resistance, etc. Snake survives a rocket launch near the epicenter and he walks that shit off despite getting caught in the explosion from, well idk I have to pixel scale it later but it cant be that far.
But yes let's focus on a anti-feat (ignoring he proceeds to get out moments later) that doesn't even exist in later games (removed in tts) and is made laughable by Solid's very own casual bit feats throughout the games let alone others (there's seemingly a good handful of multi ton feats in 4 at his worst). If you want to use an anti-feat, use one that isn't made laughable by even the verse's most basic ass lifting feats done with zero effort. Like hell, I'm pretty sure even the Volgin and The Boss swinging around a davy crocket with the launcher is enough to casually lift a jeep a few inches, and those are like two of the most basic ass feats in the series like ever.

I don't think anyone actually responded to this post btw.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Too bad, it's there, I even linked you to the exact second

The entire scene is him not tracking Grey Fox. The entire scene is Snake being confused as to what's happening with Fox running around him. There's multiple explosions and sword slices away from where he's looking and he's just not following him.

He still had a fit, and he clearly wants to kill Snake (unless you wanna say that him aiming at his neck with his sword is like, a way of greeting him?) so he had OBJECTIVELY no reason to hold back anything, and what kinda sense does it make that Gray Fox goes from FTE to nerfing himself to be equal to Snake right before engaging? Seriously, the level of assumption required for this is outstanding

Because he still wanted a fight from Snake. His entire thing in the game was trying to resolves his issues with Snake and to regain control of himself. But like, this ultimately doesn't mean much. I was never against Snake scaling to Fox, just that I don't think they're treated as having similar speeds in TTS. MGS1 didn't have that implication and Snake gets his speed from elsewhere anyways.

I don't think anyone actually responded to this post btw.

Probably because its a massive wall of text. In general its hard to response point for point even if you wanted to due to sheer length. The only thing I would note is that we have a heavy separation between LS and striking strength. While Snake probably has the evidence to scale lifting wise, trading blows with someone evenly is not evidence for having the same LS. Or at least it shouldn't be.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I suggest to read the comment above to see why Frank didn't hold back

 

[Qawsedf234]

Using TTS, he just obviously didn't go full tilt speed wise against Snake. Since we see Snake being unable to track him when he goes berserk. MGS1 didn't have it though, so ultimately it doesn't matter since MGS1 is the main canon of the events.

 

[Abstractions]

Before you consider it shook the copter they were in and he opted to not use the set up.

The Davy Crockett wikipedia page may interest you.

Bullshit, we know how much recoil it has to the point it's only usable by characters who can throw around 40 ton bulldozers and shit.

We actually don't, and that takes a calculated effort. Something I had someone else do and they took notice of said dampener.

Also, regular soldiers can toss around 40 ton bulldozers?

Because he has feats that suggest he could so if he doesnt try it but other feats suggest he can, then put 2+2 together.

Or make the logical assertion that he can't based on him not attempting do so, just because I don't try to lift a car doesn't mean I have the ability.

At this point you're just being deliberately ignorant or dense as ****, I'm not sure which but you're actually being ******* stupid here. It's a clear indicator of holding back? Because he threw down his weapon? For reasons we know and are detailed across SEVERAL games? Newsflash, Gray Fox exists in more than one game. And oh he's fast so that means he was holding back? Even though he uses said superspeed to zip around and teleport in the fight itself meaning the very thing you're suggesting he's holding back on DOESNT EVEN HAPPEN and he actively uses said speed against Snake, Snake just so happens to be able to work around it. There's no ******* way you've actually looked into this.

Clearly ignoring the speed factor again, if he wasn't holding back the fight would have ended much sooner because we see moments after Snake can't react to it.

I mentioned said list once? Stalling, oh, you mean making an effort to comb through the games for usable information and feats? I'll post it when I'm actually done. About to toss in 4 to test some shit.

You could actively post the findings instead of waiting to drop them all at once so we can look at them instead of just claiming they exist. It's simple.

Kojima himself said it was 300kg. You do know the peak human ratings are for things like benchpresses and the like, not a single person on the planet can just casually list 300kg with one hand and swing it around with no effort for prolonged periods of time.

Show evidence for this, Twellas moments later said he just pulled it from the wiki but didn't provide the source, meanwhile I provided you an actual source on the real thing.

Based on this, let's also assert that Metal Gear is 505kgs (Page 157) and moves much slower than Snake.

Using TTS, he just obviously didn't go full tilt speed wise against Snake. Since we see Snake being unable to track him when he goes berserk. MGS1 didn't have it though, so ultimately it doesn't matter since MGS1 is the main canon of the events.

Considering this, the feat should then be removed from Gray Fox's page, we cannot cherrypick what's allowed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also, regular soldiers can toss around 40 ton bulldozers?

Link is dead as a note

 

[Abstractions]

Link is dead as a note

Seems to work fine for me.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its dead for me too

 

[Abstractions]

Its dead for me too

Tried to fix it.

 

[Chariot190]

The entire scene is him not tracking Grey Fox. The entire scene is Snake being confused as to what's happening with Fox running around him. There's multiple explosions and sword slices away from where he's looking and he's just not following him.

He does track him, at least twice. Though it doesn't matter, if the argument is "Gray Fox held back because he's normally faster and isn't when fighting Snake", then it doesn't matter because he literally uses his speed in the fight, having afterimages, teleporting around through speed and a bunch of other shit. He didn't pull anything in regards to speed, so why the hell would he pull his punches too? (ignoring he actively tries to kill him anyway).

Because he still wanted a fight from Snake. His entire thing in the game was trying to resolves his issues with Snake and to regain control of himself. But like, this ultimately doesn't mean much. I was never against Snake scaling to Fox, just that I don't think they're treated as having similar speeds in TTS. MGS1 didn't have that implication and Snake gets his speed from elsewhere anyways.

It's so much more complex then that it ain't even funny. So like, what are you even arguing then? If Snake scales to Gray Fox physically then that's literally this argument done, nothing else needs to be said in regards to this particular topic.

Probably because its a massive wall of text. In general its hard to response point for point even if you wanted to due to sheer length.

I mean when I spend like 8 hours going through every single piece of media is featured in from the MSX games (MG1 and 2), TTS, MGS1, Port Ops to even the digital novels to reach a conclusion (was gonna take a look at the benson novel but decided it's super not canon, not even secondary, ended up being just extra fluff given it's stated and explained in the main game itself anyway). Damn right it's gonna be long.

The Davy Crockett wikipedia page may interest you.

Read it weeks ago.

We actually don't, and that takes a calculated effort. Something I had someone else do and they took notice of said dampener.

Which is why the railgun is explicitly stated to have immense recoil to the point it cant be used normally and it being a miniature version of something explicitly stated to have so much recoil it actively tosses mecha's around.

Also, regular soldiers can toss around 40 ton bulldozers?

Dead link but I swear to god if you're using Peace Walker co-op mode you're about to lose any and all credibility. But no, was talking about Crying Wolf, who can stop a bulldozer in its tracks and ram it over.

Or make the logical assertion that he can't based on him not attempting do so, just because I don't try to lift a car doesn't mean I have the ability.

Unless you showed the ability to lift a car elsewhere, in which case I'd assume you could.

Clearly ignoring the speed factor again, if he wasn't holding back the fight would have ended much sooner because we see moments after Snake can't react to it.

Except in the very fight itself Gray Fox uses his superspeed to teleport around so he QUITE LITERALLY wasnt even holding back his speed but I dont expect you to actually know that. Your only argument relies on something he does anyway.

You could actively post the findings instead of waiting to drop them all at once so we can look at them instead of just claiming they exist. It's simple.

Or I could actually gather everything of note first instead of wasting time doing this back and forth shit after every single thing is mentioned actively preventing me from further looking over games and lore to find shit.

Show evidence for this, Twellas moments later said he just pulled it from the wiki but didn't provide the source, meanwhile I provided you an actual source on the real thing.

Don't know, just know it's a thing, I'll add it the shit to look for. And the real thing? I mean yeah maybe if this wasnt a stronger prototype variation of it, and even with the real weight it's still a superhuman feat.

Based on this, let's also assert that Metal Gear is 505kgs (Page 159) and moves much slower than Snake.

505,450kg, ie 505 tons. To bad REX scales to Sahel. "it moves slower", yeah because that matters why exactly? Ignoring REX and his derivatives speed feats.

Considering this, the feat should then be removed from Gray Fox's page, we cannot cherrypick what's allowed.

I mean if actually payed attention to the game.

 

[Abstractions]

Dead link but I swear to god if you're using Peace Walker co-op mode you're about to lose any and all credibility. But no, was talking about Crying Wolf, who can stop a bulldozer in its tracks and ram it over.

Are you implying by this that Peace Walker is indeed questionable and it should not be used?

Also, it's definitely not a comma, that says 505kgs.

 

[Chariot190]

Are you implying by this that Peace Walker is indeed questionable and it should not be used?

Im implying co-op mode that simply uses Big Boss actions but retextured isnt viable for scaling purposes as it's actually Big Boss' feats, not theirs. But hey, if you want to use the superhuman soldiers given they can pull off everything Big Boss does then fine by me. Superhuman OH Soldiers isnt even inconsistent, just look at Venom or Phantom Pain, where every soldier worth a damn can pull off superhuman feats and dodge bullets and the like. Like, you do realize you're arguing for superhuman soldiers right?

Also, it's definitely not a comma, that says 505kgs.

Then it's a typo, because REX is stated 505 tons. Though, the fact you're actually trying to argue REX is not even a ton is literally grasping at straws. I seriously hope to god you're joking.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Really? Not even 1 Ton REX? And you lost any part of me that might've seen your argument. Definitely sticking with Chariot now.

 

[Abstractions]

Im implying co-op mode that simply uses Big Boss actions but retextured isnt viable for scaling purposes as it's actually Big Boss' feats, not theirs. But hey, if you want to use the superhuman soldiers given they can pull off everything Big Boss does then fine by me. Superhuman OH Soldiers isnt even inconsistent, just look at Venom or Phantom Pain, where every soldier worth a damn can pull off superhuman feats and dodge bullets and the like. Like, you do realize you're arguing for superhuman soldiers right?

I'm actually arguing from a standpoint that it's ridiculous, and that if run of the mill soldiers can use it there's a sign it doesn't have the crazy recoil you suggest.

Here's the actual codec conversation you are referring to:

"Rosemary: Problems with the rail plasma and inner-rail electromagnetic release have yet to be solved. Evaluations exist that criticize it as unacceptable as a field weapon... because of the high risk of accidental discharge.
Raiden: But hers doesn't...?
Rosemary: ...Most likely...probably because she's lucky.
Raiden: Unbelievable...
Rosemary: Either way, it's a weapon that she alone can wield, that's for sure.
Raiden: Yeah, and a weapon that's uncontrollable, too.
Rosemary: Be very careful, Jack."

There is no mention of uncontrollable recoil, but it being uncontrollable due to the risk of accidental discharge harming the user, which was remedied by Fortune's luck.

Then it's a typo, because REX is stated 505 tons. Though, the fact you're actually trying to argue REX is not even a ton is literally grasping at straws. I seriously hope to god you're joking.

Then drop the Davy Crockett weight and just don't consider it reliable when I provide you a source for the machine's actual weight. Of course I don't seriously believe REX weighs less than a ton.

 

[Chariot190]

'm actually arguing from a standpoint that it's ridiculous, and that if run of the mill soldiers can use it there's a sign it doesn't have the crazy recoil you suggest.

Except it does, the soldiers you're talking about are also capable of performing other super human feats because they're literally just Big Boss retextured and repurposed for co-op and side shit. Them wielding it doesnt matter because it's actually Big Boss wielding it. If you want to take them wielding it at face value, they can do some other crazy shit like dodge bullets, lift hydraulic presses and more because they're actually just big boss and using him as a basis. So yeah, them wielding whatever the **** it is they're doing in game isnt ridiculous because they have other shit too. It's a matter of if you seriously think they're capable of it or not, not that the rail gun is magically not intense. So, you want superhuman, mach speeds motherbase soldiers? Fine by me.

"Rosemary: Problems with the rail plasma and inner-rail electromagnetic release have yet to be solved. Evaluations exist that criticize it as unacceptable as a field weapon... because of the high risk of accidental discharge.
Raiden: But hers doesn't...?
Rosemary: ...Most likely...probably because she's lucky.
Raiden: Unbelievable...
Rosemary: Either way, it's a weapon that she alone can wield, that's for sure.
Raiden: Yeah, and a weapon that's uncontrollable, too.
Rosemary: Be very careful, Jack."

There is no mention of uncontrollable recoil, but it being uncontrollable due to the risk of accidental discharge harming the user, which was remedied by Fortune's luck.

Hold up? When did I say that's what I was referring to? I mentioned discharges and recoil, I never said they were from the same thing. Yes, one such issue. As if there isnt more then that. Of course, I'd be happy to actually gather scans along with more feats.

Then drop the Davy Crockett weight and just don't consider it reliable when I provide you a source for the machine's actual weight. Of course I don't seriously believe REX weighs less than a ton.

Aint dropping the weight, even at a lowend, its still superhuman, unless you think people can swing several hundred kg, even 200kg around like that with no effort?
Then why bring it up? So let me get this straight, you brought up something not even you believed in, further tried to insinuate that it's only 505kg, for what ******* purpose? To waste time? To add even more unneeded pointless topics of discussion?

 

[Abstractions]

Aint dropping the weight, even at a lowend, its still superhuman, unless you think people can swing several hundred kg, even 200kg around like that with no effort?
Then why bring it up? So let me get this straight, you brought up something not even you believed in, further tried to insinuate that it's only 505kg, for what ******* purpose? To waste time? To add even more unneeded pointless topics of discussion?

There's a claim that Kojima claimed it was 300kgs when it factually isn't, so I brought up the REX thing being 505kg when it factually isn't. Can you not make the connection?

It also isn't superhuman, that starts at 501kg and beyond, so the Davy Crockett feat is still in Peak Human territory.

 

[Chariot190]

There's a claim that Kojima claimed it was 300kgs when it factually isn't, so I brought up the REX thing being 505kg when it factually isn't. Can you not make the connection?

You missed the part where this was a experimental high powered prototype that is vastly above a normal one, not an average one, ergo, whatever the actual one weighed doesnt matter, it can still be more. I could make the connection if said connection wasn't a disingenuous analogy. If we're going to ignore claims and shit by virtue of how much it should be in reality, REX isnt even 505 tons, he's more like 15000 tons as something that large and dense with that many armaments' would dwarf 500 tons by a ludicrous amount. Like, MGS is on some pokemon shit with it's weird ass weights. Onix is only like 100kg despite being a 20 foot long boulder snake? REX is only 500 tons even though it's a 13m tall giant hunk of steel with nuclear capabilities?

It also isn't superhuman, that starts at 501kg and beyond, so the Davy Crockett feat is still in Peak Human territory.

You do realize that's for things like deadlifts right and not something that can be done over prolonged periods of times? Not swinging that shit around with one arm? It's plainly superhuman, the fact we have actual real life examples to compare to tells us as much.

 

[Abstractions]

You missed the part where this was a experimental high powered prototype that is vastly above a normal one, not an average one, ergo, whatever the actual one weighed doesnt matter, it can still be more.

And it could easily weigh less by this analogy, improved technology can easily mean it's more accessible to field troops instead of needing additional transportation, it doesn't require the resources it did prior because it's an improved model.

The best that can be done is going by what it's actually based off of without assumptions.

 

[Armorchompy]

I still fail to understand why a feat that is Class 1 at best is relevant to this conversation.

Also, how about we stop discussing Class M so the opposition can come up with feats faster, instead of slowly dripping them here? I still am not completely not suspicious of purposeful stalling.

 

[Twellas]

The entire scene is him not tracking Grey Fox. The entire scene is Snake being confused as to what's happening with Fox running around him. There's multiple explosions and sword slices away from where he's looking and he's just not following him.

But again, you literally see him track Gray Fox at the beginning, after that he starts to just look around and not follow him

Because he still wanted a fight from Snake. His entire thing in the game was trying to resolves his issues with Snake and to regain control of himself

And i guess aiming at someone's neck with a sword is a way to "regain control of himself"? The amount of mental gymnastics required to think that Gray Fox wasn't out to kill Snake is honestly laughable

But like, this ultimately doesn't mean much. I was never against Snake scaling to Fox, just that I don't think they're treated as having similar speeds in TTS. MGS1 didn't have that implication and Snake gets his speed from elsewhere anyways.

Ok, but you DO know that we are talking about Lifting Strength here, not speed, right?

 

[Twellas]

I still fail to understand why a feat that is Class 1 at best is relevant to this conversation.

Because it's the lowest end feat of the verse and it still contradicts the """anti-feat""" you posted

 

[Armorchompy]

MGS1:
Nastasha Romenanko: No. Prosthetics are intended to replace original body parts. That ninja's exoskeleton makes him far stronger than any normal human. He is a true cyborg... a cybernetic organism.

MGSTTS:
Nastasha Romanenko: No; there is a fundamental difference. Prosthetics are intended to compensate for lost body limbs. The exoskeleton replaces human flesh with machinery to produce a weapon more powerful than a mere human.

Hey look what I found, direct statements that Fox is stronger than humans can be

 

[Armorchompy]

Master Miller (Actually Liquid): He's just playing with you. Why don't you try throwing away your weapons?

This is neat too!

 

[SpookyShadow]

I don't know if you're implying it, but Snake's not "mere human"

Also, Liquid suggests throwing away weapons, hmm I wonder why. Either to get Snake killed (unlikely, his plan wasn't fulfilled yet) or just get them in a normal fight. If Snake was too weak Liquid would say something like "run away".

 

[Chariot190]

Master Miller (Actually Liquid): He's just playing with you. Why don't you try throwing away your weapons?

This is neat too!

I already mentioned that, anything new you want to bring to the table? Better yet, context, Gray Fox only went all out after they laid down their weapons (this is quite literally stated, holy shit Armor, not only does Gray Fox himself state this but we even see the context of it, why the **** you being so disingenuous? I can quote shit to without context and mislead the **** outta people too, but I aint gonna), he thought weapons weren't honorable and untill snake went into CQC, he just stayed back slicing his bullets and not actually fighting really. (He literally calls you on it. "Pathetic! The old Solid Snake would never depend on such a weapon!", "A weapon like that can't defeat me", etc).

Also want to know another fun fact? Null exists. You want to know a few more? Snake proceeds to fight against several more advanced exosuits as the series progresses, Gray Fox's suit aint shit.

a normal human.

Wow, so exosuits would make someone stronger than you? Shocker. Almost as if that's the basic function and why normal humans later on start using them. Not like Snake hasn't ****** with at least 5 physically.

(Also let's ignore than at the end of the day, this falls apart because Solid still physically kicked his ass in hth to such an extent it caused a malfunction and forced him to retreat, even though newton's third law exists).

 

[Twellas]

MGS1:
Nastasha Romenanko: No. Prosthetics are intended to replace original body parts. That ninja's exoskeleton makes him far stronger than any normal human. He is a true cyborg... a cybernetic organism.

MGSTTS:
Nastasha Romanenko: No; there is a fundamental difference. Prosthetics are intended to compensate for lost body limbs. The exoskeleton replaces human flesh with machinery to produce a weapon more powerful than a mere human.

Hey look what I found, direct statements that Fox is stronger than humans can be

Hey, look at what I found, the fact that Snake is not a normal human! Seems like he was genetically engineered from birth to be better than any actual human, who would have thought! I don't blame you for not finding this info, it's kinda hidden

Master Miller (Actually Liquid): He's just playing with you. Why don't you try throwing away your weapons?

This is neat too!

Whaaaat? It would be crazy if said character was actually just another character in disguise, who spends literally the entire game lying and trying to destabilize Snake, surely his word alone takes precedence over what we are shown and what Gray Fox himself says

 

[Twellas]

Master Miller (Actually Liquid): He's just playing with you. Why don't you try throwing away your weapons?

This is neat too!

Also yeah, context, Liquid says this before Gray Fox throws his sword away, at which point Fox states "Yes good, now we can fight as warriors, hand to hand, it is the basis of all combat", so yes, Gray Fox wasn't taking the fight seriously while Snake used guns, but as soon as he drops them he himself expressly states that he does.

 

[Armorchompy]

You are misinterpreting the wording. Normal human means non-enhanced human, and Snake isn't one. He's a weaker clone of Big Boss, and Big Boss wasn't enhanced to begin with.

Also hey check this out

Otacon: If Rex steps on you, it'll be all over. Be very careful when he gets close.

A direct statement that Solid cannot halt REX, but I'm certain you guys addressed this too.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also yeah, context, Liquid says this before Gray Fox throws his sword away, at which point Fox states "Yes good, now we can fight as warriors, hand to hand, it is the basis of all combat", so yes, Gray Fox wasn't taking the fight seriously while Snake used guns, but as soon as he drops them he himself expressly states that he does.

The thing with toying with someone is, you usually don't outright tell them you're toying with them.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh also also also, the equipment weight thing that was dismissed as a game mechanic is directly addressed by Miller in PW, of course it's still not the best anti-feat out there but that was worth bringing up I think

 

[Chariot190]

You are misinterpreting the wording. Normal human means non-enhanced human, and Snake isn't one. He's a weaker clone of Big Boss, and Big Boss wasn't enhanced to begin with.

Or, she means normal human, which is definitely what she means because exosuits end up getting deployed for normal soldier use later on and Snake can still kick their teeth in.
You realize Gray Fox IS an enhanced human to begin with? Snake is literally able to 1v1 hth the enhanced super soldier that is Gray Fox so badly he literally dies. Kinda outting yourself here.

Big Boss wasn't enhanced.

Nope, he was just born buff as ****.

>Otacon: If Rex steps on you, it'll be all over. Be very careful when he gets close.

Dont need to, why would Otacon's word be taken as gospel here? He met Snake like a hour ago and is continuously in shock and awe whenever Snake does something or survives something a normal human shouldnt, to the point Snake starts getting annoyed with him. Hell, you can literally survive getting stomped by Rex fyi in game, which is what this line is referring to.

Also nice, you ignored the fact Snake can grapple with exosuits in later games, as if Gray Fox is anything special exosuit wise.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh also also also, the equipment weight thing that was dismissed as a game mechanic is directly addressed by Miller in PW, of course it's still not the best anti-feat out there but that was worth bringing up I think

It isnt worth bringing up, I'll do you one better, equipment in MGSV.

 

[Chariot190]

The thing with toying with someone is, you usually don't outright tell them you're toying with them.

good thing Gray Fox actually makes it clear then when he stops doing so.

 

[Armorchompy]

Chariot, actually stop being a dick, thanks, I am indeed getting a bit sick of your constant sarcasm.

Big Boss is indeed buff as ****, but he's not even the strongest person in his own games, so obviously yes, he is a normal human- just a very strong one, but not to the point of (in-verse) superhuman. Which is what Fox is.

Otacon is not 100% reliable of course, but between him stating that REX is too strong for Snake, and Snake being unable to stop REX in the fight, I think it's fair to say that indeed, Snake cannot stop REX.

Snake's suit boosts his strength in MGS4, don't forget that. And the Tengu have muscular enhancements, but nothing suggests those are as strong as Fox's strength.

And you know, saying you'll stop holding back might just be a lie. Cause he's toying with Snake.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot, actually stop being a dick, thanks, I am indeed getting a bit sick of your constant sarcasm.

Not sarcasm. I'm being as blunt as I possibly can here.

Big Boss is indeed buff as ****, but he's not even the strongest person in his own games, so obviously yes, he is a normal human- just a very strong one, but not to the point of (in-verse) superhuman. Which is what Fox is.

Ignoring that he beat Null and Gene (hell Solid alone beat Null to the point of death, a super human created though lab experiments and shit), super soldiers. And is arguably the strongest person in his own games at his peak. No, he isnt a "normal human", the amount of blatant superhuman feats he has or scales too is more than enough.

Otacon is not 100% reliable of course, but between him stating that REX is too strong for Snake, and Snake being unable to stop REX in the fight, I think it's fair to say that indeed, Snake cannot stop REX.

i mean, are you saying REX is stronger than Snake? Yeah no shit, of course Snake isnt as strong as REX but REX is also a fuckton stronger than Gray Fox too.

Snake's suit boosts his strength in MGS4, don't forget that. And the Tengu have muscular enhancements, but nothing suggests those are as strong as Fox's strength.

Yes, his suit boosts his strength, to compensate for his lost strength because he's literally dying, Old Snake aint stronger than peak Snake, his suit gets busted near the end anyway. Wasnt even talking about the Tengu, but in regards to Tengu, they're actually using a suit that's a derivative of Solidus' using the same technology, and Solidus' suit is outright stated to be, at the time, a super enhanced state of the art exosuit.

And you know, saying you'll stop holding back might just be a lie. Cause he's toying with Snake.

Yeah sure, because Liquid's line referring to the context of how Gray Fox wont go all out till you throw your weapon down, is more reliable then Gray Fox and subsequent games and scenes saying he went all out the moment they went hth, which is what Liquid was referring to in the first place.

Let me guess? The SKULLS were holding back against Venom? Or Solidus held back against Raiden? Or insert any other cyborg or powered suit wearing character here, let alone Gray Fox who's the single most insane tunneled vision one of all who was doing anything he could to fight Snake in hth to the death (hell we even see this referenced in his youth where he kills a bunch of soldiers so he can fight Big Boss again to the death).

 

[Armorchompy]

Not sarcasm. I'm being as blunt as I possibly can here.

Don't care, it's annoying, cut it out

Ignoring that he beat Null and Gene (hell Solid alone beat Null to the point of death, a super human created though lab experiments and shit), super soldiers. And is arguably the strongest person in his own games at his peak. No, he isnt a "normal human", the amount of blatant superhuman feats he has or scales too is more than enough.

Yes, the questionably canon Gene. Also MG 1 has the Bloody Brad, a robotic enemy that Snake cannot fight H2H, it's in fact stated that he cannot.

i mean, are you saying REX is stronger than Snake? Yeah no shit, of course Snake isnt as strong as REX but REX is also a fuckton stronger than Gray Fox too.

But you are saying that Snake is stronger than Fox or at least as strong as him, and Fox halted REX's stomp quite casually.

Yes, his suit boosts his strength, to compensate for his lost strength because he's literally dying, Old Snake aint stronger than peak Snake, his suit gets busted near the end anyway. Wasnt even talking about the Tengu, but in regards to Tengu, they're actually using a suit that's a derivative of Solidus' using the same technology, and Solidus' suit is outright stated to be, at the time, a super enhanced state of the art exosuit.

Do you even grapple the Tengu, actually? I don't remember. Either way, I don't think we have any direct statement on how Old Snake with the suit holds up against Solid Snake, though it shouldn't be too different.

 

[Armorchompy]

How far in are you folks with the research of feats, by the way?

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, should Snake get limited Precog through the dreams in MGS4? The ones that reference how he died.

 

[Chariot190]

Don't care, it's annoying, cut it out

Gonna be blunt if I have to, rather that then not be blunt.

Yes, the questionably canon Gene. Also MG 1 has the Bloody Brad, a robotic enemy that Snake cannot fight H2H, it's in fact stated that he cannot.

You mean the canon Gene who's featured in MGS4 multiple times (He's even in Ocelot's flashback) and is stated to be canon by Kojima. A robotic enemy made by the dude who went on to make cyborg Raiden and is the best in the world in regards to cybernetics and robotics. (ignoring that solid later proceeds to fight exosuit wearing characters anyway. Hell, here's a funfact, originally Big Boss was a cyborg in MG2 as well with the same tech as Brad and precursor tech to MGS4 Raiden before Venom became a thing, he was apart of the snatcher project).

But you are saying that Snake is stronger than Fox or at least as strong as him, and Fox halted REX's stomp quite casually.

Yes, I am saying that, because he is, hell the very fact Solid can hurt Gray Fox with his strikes but Gray Fox can withstand his own proves at minimum there's comparability there. He did, but he was also killed by REX's stomp and made into a bloody smear on the floor and crushed by him. Gray Fox can halt (and even toss in the comic) REX, but he's still not as strong as him either if REX really decides to put his hydraulics into it. There's some comparability but no shit they're weaker then REX, basically everything in verse is, REX is basically the strongest thing physically, especially when you take into account Sahel.

Do you even grapple the Tengu, actually? I don't remember. Either way, I don't think we have any direct statement on how Old Snake with the suit holds up against Solid Snake, though it shouldn't be too different.

If you go out of your way to. You can also grapple FROG's, who also wear powered suits in 4. You can also grapple with other exosuits in other games that have their own feats and scaling, all of which are hilariously superhuman even in spite of Gray Fox. Old Snake's suit was stated to be there just to "make up" for his lost strength. And he still manages to do some superhuman shit after it gets busted.

How far in are you folks with the research of feats, by the way?

Not far enough, 22 feats right now. Maybe 23. Im going through the MGS4 database right now, I downloaded it to my PS3 and I still have to test some shit in 4, 5, TTS, and the MSX games.