Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

Striking Strength does not equal Lifting Strength in fiction, so punching a Gray Fox who is slowly walking toward Snake and begging him to hurt him isn't evidence for lifting.

Two characters fighting in a battle to the death is 100% enough to categorize them as equals in every stat, ssince grappling is a huge part in fighting in general, especially when Gray Fox's canonical fighting style is entirely grappling-based. "He was asking to be hurt" is such a non-argument that I'm shocked you guys are even bringing it up, what does it mean? Fiction is full of sadistic characters who like to get hurt during the fight, Raiden is one of them in MGR ffs, but it doesn't mean they are not serious.

We all agree that Solid Snake is weaker than Gray Fox, to some degree, since he would've been crushed by Rex quicker right?

No. Gray Fox dispatching REX more easily is due to his acrobatics being much better than Snake's (in TTS at least), him having a sword that completely negates durability (still TTS) and having an armcannon that, for some ******* reason, dwarfs Snake's best weaponry; in the og Gray Fox does nothing but shoot the radome twice and dodge some bullets, nothing Snake couldn't have done.

Well, by the end of the game Solid Snake was unable to lift a jeep, which is a massive anti-feat. He is not depicted to be as strong as Gray Fox at all.

As I said, dramatic framing, literally the second after the scene is done he frees himself. And he never even tried to lift it, he just pulled his leg out once and when that didn't work he stopped trying, this isn't even a case of LS and is not an anti-feat since he literally still pulls it off. It's not even a case of it going against Class M, even if we take like the lowest LS feat in the verse (the Davy crocket one), this "feat" (as I said, it's not even consistent to itself, Snake frees himself right after) is still contradictory even to that.
Also, it doesn't even happen in TTS, yeah we take the og over it, but it's worth pointing out

 

[Chariot190]

Slowly walking toward snake? You mean the same Gray Fox who fought Snake at Mach speeds while bullets whizzed by them, who has afterimage filters on all his attacks and proceeds to go mach speeds mid fight? Asking him to hurt him? Uh, yes, and? Bloodknight, wants to feel the thrill of battle again.
Honest question, how many people here have played the MSX games or port ops? Because none of you are even trying to hide the fact you haven't and it's getting annoying debating shit explained in other games. Like, you do know Gray Fox is in other games?
"Once Gray Fox picks a target, he never holds back".

I'm going to be blunt, the very notion of "well Gray Fox was holding back" is ridiculous, it's complete and utter bullshit. We are told he's going all out, we are told he's trying to kill Snake, we are even shown he's trying to kill Snake several times, we are told that he's complete dead set on having a hand to hand death match with Snake, we are told he's completely irrational in this aspect and is tunneled vision on this and will do everything he can to get in this death match (it's quite literally why he helps Snake throughout the game, just so he can get his death match, he himself at one point even says he killed all the soldiers around the area so that nothing would interfere with their death match, hell it's even hinted that he only goes into maximum overdrive when fighting hand to hand), the reason why he throws down his weapon is explained and detailed multiple times over with the reason being that he wants a hand to hand death match like he had in zanzibar land, hand to hand is the most raw form of fighting and he thinks weapons lack honor (he quite literally says this himself, twice) and gray fox is all about the honorable gladiator death match shit, his "make me hurt more" line is explained QUITE LITERALLY in that very scene by he himself, he wants to feel the PAIN of battle again, when he asks Snake to hurt him more it's because he's enjoying the fight and makes him feel alive again as the only thing he ever lived for is the thrill of the fight (this is stated in MULTIPLE GAMES, even later on in this very game) We know from his past that Gray Fox as a rule, never holds back in a fight (to the point it's literally stated he always goes all out and never holds back), this is further detailed as his time as Null when he always goes all out and will do everything he can to fight his target and kill them, albeit after encountering Big Boss he goes about it in a honorable way due to Big Boss inciting such intense emotions in him. And the whole "well he wanted to die to snake" is a half truth at that, it's not like he was just gonna let Snake kill him, no, he very clearly and explicitly wanted, in his own words, even when explaining that he wanted death, makes it clear he wanted to die in a life and death match with Snake with both going all in like in Zanzibar Land, and it's not even "he wanted to die to Snake", that's misleading, the actual context was "he thought Snake was the only person able to kill him" because everybody else sucked dick. I'm honestly baffled at how this is even an actual debate that is happening, there's one thing thinking it's an outlier, but nobody in their right mind can actually think Gray Fox was holding back at all when every single discrepancy is explained and we're told and reiterated multiple times the context, goals and intent of every character involved. Like ****, the ONLY thing that possibly hints at Gray Fox maybe holding back is "well he appears fast at certain points", as if that actually effects if Gray Fox was holding back, especially as it's outright shown Solid is capable of harming him to a good extent physically and the fact Gray Fox doesn't even hold back on his speed in the fight, the ****** still zips around, has afterimages and basically teleports and Solid still manages to kick his face in physically even while Gray Fox is using his superspeed so even if you argue Gray Fox is faster than Snake (tbf I would have maybe agreed, to a extent, if Null didn't exist), he still uses said speed in fight meaning him holding back because he sometimes appears fast in TTS doesn't work because in TTS he USES said speed in the fight so if he's not pulling the single aspect he may be better in, he sure as **** ain't pulling his strength either.

Striking strength doesn't equal lifting strength in general, sure, but there's always at least some correlation, the times it isnt are the exceptions not the rule. But, if you're physically on par with someone, if not above, said person who can lift said things (someone mentioned Gray Fox tossing Rex through the roof at one point, funnily enough, Gray Fox does toss REX and put it on its ass in the ashley wood comic), and there's absolutely zero distinction between lifting strength and striking strength being drastically different (news flash, that isn't how it works, especially in grapple and holds the verse, the only argument here would be that Snake just so happens to hit harder because his strikes are faster than Gray Fox's, otherwise there's zero reason as to why Snake would be able to hit harder, but given its being argued he's SLOWER, you see the issue with that correct? This is without getting into the fact some of gray fox's strength comes from being injected with big boss dna and the perfect soldier program, which actualy lead way to the Genome Soldier project as Gray Fox was used as the experiment, and exosuits? Snake has fought MANY exosuits post MGS1, all of which should be superior to Gray Fox, like, reminder Gray Fox's exosuit was a half baked prototype, that is later built and expanded upon, by the time of 4, even 2, exosuits of varying technologies are in usage, and Snake can kick all their asses physically and grapple them).

No, we don't agree he's weaker than Gray Fox, the fact he can get his face smashed in like two dozen times by Ocelot in MGS4 confirms he ain't as Ocelot's cyborg arm>>whatever Gray Fox has, let alone the fact he can hit Gray Fox so hard we can literally hear the crunching sounds (newton's third law says hi) and Gray Fox is physically harmed by said strikes, and Gray Fox held REX up with little effort with zero damage. I don't think I have to explain the correlation here of how Solid's strikes being enough to make Gray Fox reel in pain and damage puts Solid on his level physically, if not higher.

And congratulations on bringing up something that was already talked about pages ago, you've read the thread right? That was rhetorical, unless you got something new to add don't bother. (Ignoring that Solid actually does manage to get out immediately after with seemingly little effort, sure as hell wasnt due to Meryl given he's helping her out, not to mention that sequence is removed in all following versions of the story, from TTS to even the Digital comic by Ashley Wood, featured in the Legacy Collection having him being under the jeep gone and instead has him face to face with Liquid which im lowkey certain is referenced in mgs4).

On a different note, hey, found another good LS feat (likely three and a half actually). Hell found a bunch of other feats too ranging from mindhax resistance, massive heat resistance, more radiation resistance, social influencing resistance, precog resistance, etc. Snake survives a rocket launch near the epicenter and he walks that shit off despite getting caught in the explosion from, well idk I have to pixel scale it later but it cant be that far.
But yes let's focus on a anti-feat (ignoring he proceeds to get out moments later) that doesn't even exist in later games (removed in tts) and is made laughable by Solid's very own casual bit feats throughout the games let alone others (there's seemingly a good handful of multi ton feats in 4 at his worst). If you want to use an anti-feat, use one that isn't made laughable by even the verse's most basic ass lifting feats done with zero effort. Like hell, I'm pretty sure even the Volgin and The Boss swinging around a davy crocket with the launcher is enough to casually lift a jeep a few inches, and those are like two of the most basic ass feats in the series like ever.

 

[Chariot190]

Before Twellas does, I'll bring up his counterargument to this, which is that Snake eventually manages to get out of the jeep and him not doing so immediately is PIS, but this is still one hell of an anti-feat imo

I wouldnt even call it an anti-feat, rather just an extreme low end. We dont even gotta look at the class m/k feats to realize how bullshit it is. Even the casual superhuman feats are enough to discredit it.

 

[SpookyShadow]

So one anti feat that is obviously PIS (which happens quite a lot in MGS if anyone has played the series, not to mention that Snake was weakened) against like 7, aight

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thers a hell of a lot more than just one anti-feat

 

[SpookyShadow]

List all of them and let's take a look

 

[Twellas]

The jeep one isn't even an anti feat for class M, it's an antifeat for every single LS feat in the verse, even just resisting the Railgun's recoil in MGS4 would make him capable of slightly lifting that jeep. And again, he still freed himself right after the dramatic scene played, so what are we even talking about?

 

[Chariot190]

Thers a hell of a lot more than just one anti-feat

And there's hell of a lot more feats that prove them all bullshit.
In MGS4 alone there's enough feats to effectively outnumber every single anti-feat in the verse, hell Snake can grapple consistently with enemies wearing power suits. Like, a good few dozen times. And here's a question, what lifting strength is ripping people in half or ripping limbs off in a slow drawn out manner (aka not striking strength)? Because that's a thing too. If I recall ripping heads off was class 50 and spines class k.

Hell, another low end feat that discredits 90% of the low end ones is Volgin firing a davy crocket with his bare hands (something that usually needs a recoiless launch set up, and he HAD it on him, he just didnt use it because why would he?).

 

[Armorchompy]

I doubt the Davy Crockett's recoil is anything above what, Class 5 at best, and it's done by a character who is repeatedly treated as having very impressive strength. Of course, people scale to him, but he's still about as strong as they come.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, it's fairly realistic for someone who can lift 30 tons to be pinned down temporarily by a 5 ton machine, if tired, wounded and in a bad position. For someone who can lift 300000, not so much.

 

[Twellas]

The matter is that Snake didn't even try to lift the jeep, all he did was try and pull his leg out once, failed, and then succeded like, what, a minute later? It's a "feat" that isn't even consistent with itself, along with not being present in the secondary canon.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Two characters fighting in a battle to the death is 100% enough to categorize them as equals in every sta

Solid scales to Fox physically for AP and the like, but they are not equals in every stat. When Frank loses control of himself TTS shows that Snake is unable to follow or track his movements. He's portrayed as being much faster, or at least consistently faster, than Snake throughout the game.

 

[Armorchompy]

The matter is that Snake didn't even try to lift the jeep, all he did was try and pull his leg out once, failed, and then succeded like, what, a minute later? It's a "feat" that isn't even consistent with itself

Or maybe it just took him more time than he had to crawl his way out of it, it's not like we even know how he did it since it's covered by a codec conversation, odds are he just slowly slid out from underneath the Jeep, instead of pushing it up.

 

[Abstractions]

I doubt the Davy Crockett's recoil is anything above what, Class 5 at best, and it's done by a character who is repeatedly treated as having very impressive strength. Of course, people scale to him, but he's still about as strong as they come.

The Davy Crockett is designed to have no recoil, so that's out of the question.

The railgun itself has a recoil dampener which we see with how the barrel retreats inwards after its fired, there's no way of telling how much recoil it's absorbing so it's unusable.

I'm tired of this "didn't even try" argument. He didn't try to lift the Metal Gear, he didn't try to lift the jeep, why must we assert that he can if we never see him do it?

EDIT: I'll only say it one last time, and that's if Gray Fox is shown to be moving much faster than Snake can track (which he has listed on his profile) when not in control of himself mentally (meaning he couldn't hold himself back if he wanted to), but his moving slow enough for Snake to see in a fight and also handicapping himself be restricting his equipment, it's a clear indicator of holding back.

 

[Twellas]

Solid scales to Fox physically for AP and the like, but they are not equals in every stat. When Frank loses control of himself TTS shows that Snake is unable to follow or track his movements. He's portrayed as being much faster, or at least consistently faster, than Snake throughout the game.

Except you can literally see Snake tracking him with his sight, and Snake fights on equal footing with him after he has the same kind of crysis he had before the lab scene. What he's consistently portrayed as being is far more acrobatic than Snake, that's true, but the FTE stuff is not only iffy (could very well just be visual flare) but it's also completely absent in the og.

Or maybe it just took him more time than he had to crawl his way out of it, it's not like we even know how he did it since it's covered by a codec conversation, odds are he just slowly slid out from underneath the Jeep, instead of pushing it up.

We are consistently shown throughout the series that Snake doesn't move while using the codec, I don't see why they'd make an exception here. What goes on is Snake gets "trapped", he tries to pull his leg off ONCE, fails and stops, Liquid dies, Codec calls (Snake doesn't move because he never canonically moves while using the codec, NEVER) and Snake is free. And as I said, Old Snake has casual LS feats that are more than enough to lift a jeep a few inches, so even if we take this as legit, it's FAR below even the worst LS feats in the verse

 

[Twellas]

I'm tired of this "didn't even try" argument. He didn't try to lift the Metal Gear, he didn't try to lift the jeep, why must we assert that he can if we never see him do it?

He can because we see him (or people who scale to him) do better stuff. And it's basically objective that he didn't even try to lift the jeep, he stops even trying to pull off his leg after doing it once, you can literally see him just stand there as Liquid approaches

 

[Newendigo]

...Can we at the very least add the powers and abilities from the OP that have been accepted already? We must have that thing solved by this point no?

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, most of the abilities have been agreed upon, but I can't just go and edit the pages, I'd need the approval of some mods or all knowledgeable members, which would mean that we'd have to shift the discussion etc etc

 

[Newendigo]

Abstractions agreed with Chariot about some powers, Medeus also commented but I don't recall what he said, and Schnee has not said a single thing since the first page I believe...

I will look for the replies, pretty sure the other mods that appeared also agreed with the additions.

 

[Twellas]

some abilities were universally not accepted (even by me) such as the deconstruction and death manip for BB.
I was thinking, what about the additional profiles? Are they fine to add?

 

[Qawsedf234]

but it's also completely absent in the og.

OG wise, yeah. But TTS gives the heavy implication that there's a speed difference.

Except you can literally see Snake tracking him with his sight,

What? Snake is looking around confused as to what's happening. He's not tracking anything. For the second video Fox never moves at the same speed, he just jumps behind Snake.

 

[Armorchompy]

We are consistently shown throughout the series that Snake doesn't move while using the codec, I don't see why they'd make an exception here. What goes on is Snake gets "trapped", he tries to pull his leg off ONCE, fails and stops, Liquid dies, Codec calls (Snake doesn't move because he never canonically moves while using the codec, NEVER) and Snake is free. And as I said, Old Snake has casual LS feats that are more than enough to lift a jeep a few inches, so even if we take this as legit, it's FAR below even the worst LS feats in the verse

I dunno, maybe he doesn't move because he usually doesn't need to? Besides, what do you think is happening while Snake codecs in the middle of a boss fight? You think Psycho Mantis is just gonna sit there and wait politely for the call to end? Of course he's moving! What kind of stupid arbitrary limitation are you putting on him?

 

[Armorchompy]

This has gone on for too long, we will start voting. Just so it doesn't get invalidated, does the opposition have any last arguments they would like to make?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Not only arguments, we are searching for feats. It would be dumb to just end a long discussion that is ongoing.

Damn, there's not even a CONCLUSION on what to agree or disagree with. Voting makes no sense.

 

[Twellas]

OG wise, yeah. But TTS gives the heavy implication that there's a speed difference.

And the og takes priority, everyone's been saying this for the last, what, 5 pages?

What? Snake is looking around confused as to what's happening. He's not tracking anything.

You can literally see him tracking Gray Fox's movement here, while yes, he starts looking around after a while, at the beginning he clearly follows him

For the second video Fox never moves at the same speed, he just jumps behind Snake.

Mh? He has one of his shaking fits just like in the lab, the ones that make him "lose himself" literally right before engaging Snake, if him "losing control" actually made him use all of his speed/stats, then he would have used his full speed in that case, and Snake tagged him

I dunno, maybe he doesn't move because he usually doesn't need to?

w-what?

Besides, what do you think is happening while Snake codecs in the middle of a boss fight? You think Psycho Mantis is just gonna sit there and wait politely for the call to end? Of course he's moving! What kind of stupid arbitrary limitation are you putting on him?

Mate, Snake is shown 100% of the times to ALWAYS stand still during codec calls canonically, he even takes a tiny squat most of the times. Now of course, during bossfights it's just a case of time halting for the sake of exposition

This has gone on for too long, we will start voting

No, you will not, we are literally still looking into feats right now

 

[Armorchompy]

It's crazy that "time halts for exposition" is a more logical conclusion to you than "he usually doesn't move because he codecs in a safe environment, but he can if he has to", especially when older technology, as shown in PW and MGSV, allows communication without halting the user's movement.

No, you will not, we are literally still looking into feats right now

This has gone on for a ridicolous amount of time. All you've come up with is "this feat MAY be Class K if we get lucky with a calc, and that's KINDA close to Class M" or "This very dubious scaling leads to a character having Class K". But fine, looks for feats if you really think you'll find any good ones.

 

[Armorchompy]

... Maybe that's a bit too mean, but I'm not wrong in saying this argument's length is nothing short of ridicolous.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Dude, time doesn't really matter on long CRT's. It can go even for months, the rating should be correct and not rushed. If we start voting right now without reaching correct conclusion the entire manpower of VSB's staff will agree and the thread's over. This shouldn't happen until the DEBATE ITSELF is over.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fine, but you should try and consider why the entire manpower of VSBW is voting against it.

Anyway, perhaps we could get a special permission from Staff to make a second CRT in which we discuss everything else about the 'verse, so this time isn't wasted?

 

[SpookyShadow]

I think I know why, and I'm pretty sure most didn't even read the counterpoints (and some votes might be just outdated because there were like, 500 replies since they voted). The discussion should be continued once looking for feats is over (Chariot's handling it rn). THEN the debate can be better organized and this all maybe won't be that messy. Right now, it's like 6 good feats against few vague "anti-feats". And the number of good feats might rise, so I think we'll need more "anti-feats" to actually invalidate them.

Not really. I think all knowledgeable people about MGS are right here and are busy looking for feats for this thread so the discussion won't end just yet with half-assed voting. Let's just finish our thing there, and once everyone's ready - continue what's in the OP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You can literally see him tracking Gray Fox's movement here, while yes, he starts looking around after a while, at the beginning he clearly follows

I'm not seeing it. Fox makes multiple cuts and explosions away from where Snake is looking and he's clearly not keeping up well.

Mh? He has one of his shaking fits just like in the lab, the ones that make him "lose himself" literally right before engaging

He didn't lose control there unlike with the lab. He regains it before attacking Snake, where in the lab he immediately went to jumping around at speeds neither the viewer nor Snake could follow.

He just clearly has a speed advantage. It doesn't change scaling since Snake's speed comes from somewhere else, but Fox is definitely shown to be faster when serious. At least in TTS.

 

[Twellas]

This has gone on for a ridicolous amount of time. All you've come up with is "this feat MAY be Class K if we get lucky with a calc, and that's KINDA close to Class M" or "This very dubious scaling leads to a character having Class K". But fine, looks for feats if you really think you'll find any good ones.

Still more than what the opposition has come up with in 11 pages, which amounts to
1 counter statement
1 (kinda) counter feat
At least don't dismiss the ones who are actually going out of their way to replay the games/rewatching the cutscenes to find feats when all you (as in the opposition) has added to the discussion is 1 instance of PIS and one """"feat"""" that is contradicted by even the lowest LS feat in the verse.

 

[Abstractions]

Still more than what the opposition has come up with in 11 pages, which amounts to
1 counter statement
1 (kinda) counter feat
At least don't dismiss the ones who are actually going out of their way to replay the games/rewatching the cutscenes to find feats when all you (as in the opposition) has added to the discussion is 1 instance of PIS and one """"feat"""" that is contradicted by even the lowest LS feat in the verse.

Are you implying a Davy Crockett weighs more than the Jeep that Snake couldn't lift? Because it doesn't.

 

[Twellas]

I'm not seeing it.

Too bad, it's there, I even linked you to the exact second

He didn't lose control there unlike with the lab. He regains it before attacking Snake, where in the lab he immediately went to jumping around at speeds neither the viewer nor Snake could follow.

He still had a fit, and he clearly wants to kill Snake (unless you wanna say that him aiming at his neck with his sword is like, a way of greeting him?) so he had OBJECTIVELY no reason to hold back anything, and what kinda sense does it make that Gray Fox goes from FTE to nerfing himself to be equal to Snake right before engaging? Seriously, the level of assumption required for this is outstanding

He just clearly has a speed advantage. It doesn't change scaling since Snake's speed comes from somewhere else, but Fox is definitely shown to be faster when serious. At least in TTS.

And TTS is secondary canon, with og taking priority, og where, would you look at that, none of the FTE stuff is even hinted at. And even if we want to say that Gray Fox nerfed his speed for Snake's fight (he didn't, there is no indication he did and him doing it undermines the entire point of Gray Fox wanting to fight ONLY Snake because he sees him as his only worth adversary) so what? What's the bearing on LS? Are you saying that "since he nerfed speed, it's likely he also nerfed his stregth"? That's nonsense, for the 100th time, THIS IS NOT ******* DBZ, characters CANNOT nerf themselves by thousands of times on a whim, logically speaking, there is no physical way Fox nerfed himself to the point where Snake wouldn't even scale to a casual feat of his; the only thing even remotely close to this in terms of "stats suppression" is in MGR with Armstrong, and it's because Armstrong has body control.

 

[Twellas]

Are you implying a Davy Crockett weighs more than the Jeep that Snake couldn't lift? Because it doesn't.

The Davy crocket weights just short of 300 kgs, and The Boss and Volgin swing it around like it's toilet paper, while yes, the jeep would weight more, such a LS would allow Snake to AT LEAST lift the jeep those 1 to 2 inches he needed to free himself, hell, he might not even need to be superhuman to do that ffs

 

[Chariot190]

I doubt the Davy Crockett's recoil is anything above what, Class 5 at best, and it's done by a character who is repeatedly treated as having very impressive strength. Of course, people scale to him, but he's still about as strong as they come.

It doesn't matter what it is when the feat in question is piss easy casual bit feat (Volgin quite literally doesn't move even a cm, he doesn't even move back, his arms don't jolt, he just fires and it goes and that's it, zero effort) that literally nobody gives it a second thought in passing because why would they? Class 5 or whatever? Doesn't matter what it is, the fact it's a feat that's already above the anti-feats is enough. And is Volgin strong? Sure, but this is a feat that's so hilariously casual and done with no effort. Don't even try and insinuate this was a feat done within his upper limit or even a fraction, this would be like saying Superman lifting a car would be a good indication of his strength, it ain't, it's just something he did and can do. Same here, what this does show is that low end feats like a jeep being on him that he gets out of five seconds later isnt an actual anti-feat, and if it was, it still wouldnt invalidate the higher feats when there's so many feats above said anti-feats.

Also, it's fairly realistic for someone who can lift 30 tons to be pinned down temporarily by a 5 ton machine, if tired, wounded and in a bad position. For someone who can lift 300000, not so much.

Jeep aint 5 tons, especially not that kind, Solid was barely pinned as he got out right after and in TTS/Novel he isn't even pinned at all, he gets out right away and proceeds to pull Meryl out. And you're acting like this Volgin feat is the only casual bit feat that humiliates the low end feats, it ain't, not even close, I have a list of what, I think 17-19 feats right now that all range from Class 10+ to M? (All of which are pretty casual, except one Class K feat, though I still gotta look into that in regards to scaling) And I'm still looking, there's even more if we count in grappling characters who scale above characters with said feats like Gray Fox or Volgin.
I wouldn't even say temporarily pinned, when he gets out immediately after and this scene plays out differently in every other iteration. Also 30 tons? If said feat is done with the effort of picking up a napkin and with the character in question being Snake, that doesn't even add up either way.

 

[Abstractions]

I have a list of what, I think 17-19 feats right now that all range from Class 10+ to M?

Stop mentioning said list and just post it, you are stalling otherwise.

The Davy crocket weights just short of 300 kgs, and The Boss and Volgin swing it around like it's toilet paper, while yes, the jeep would weight more, such a LS would allow Snake to AT LEAST lift the jeep those 1 to 2 inches he needed to free himself, hell, he might not even need to be superhuman to do that ffs

Where are you pulling that value from? Sites like this one indicate that even the larger variant would weigh around 200kgs, even with the round that's still about 234. This is still within Peak Human range.

 

[Chariot190]

The Davy Crockett is designed to have no recoil, so that's out of the question.

Before you consider it shook the copter they were in and he opted to not use the set up.

The railgun itself has a recoil dampener which we see with how the barrel retreats inwards after its fired, there's no way of telling how much recoil it's absorbing so it's unusable.

Bullshit, we know how much recoil it has to the point it's only usable by characters who can throw around 40 ton bulldozers and shit.

I'm tired of this "didn't even try" argument. He didn't try to lift the Metal Gear, he didn't try to lift the jeep, why must we assert that he can if we never see him do it?

Because he has feats that suggest he could so if he doesnt try it but other feats suggest he can, then put 2+2 together.

I'll only say it one last time, and that's if Gray Fox is shown to be moving much faster than Snake can track (which he has listed on his profile) when not in control of himself mentally (meaning he couldn't hold himself back if he wanted to), but his moving slow enough for Snake to see in a fight and also handicapping himself be restricting his equipment, it's a clear indicator of holding back.

At this point you're just being deliberately ignorant or dense as ****, I'm not sure which but you're actually being ******* stupid here. It's a clear indicator of holding back? Because he threw down his weapon? For reasons we know and are detailed across SEVERAL games? Newsflash, Gray Fox exists in more than one game. And oh he's fast so that means he was holding back? Even though he uses said superspeed to zip around and teleport in the fight itself meaning the very thing you're suggesting he's holding back on DOESNT EVEN HAPPEN and he actively uses said speed against Snake, Snake just so happens to be able to work around it. There's no ******* way you've actually looked into this.

 

[Chariot190]

Stop mentioning said list and just post it, you are stalling otherwise.

I mentioned said list once? Stalling, oh, you mean making an effort to comb through the games for usable information and feats? I'll post it when I'm actually done. About to toss in 4 to test some shit.

Where are you pulling that value from? Sites like this one indicate that even the larger variant would weigh around 200kgs, even with the round that's still about 234. This is still within Peak Human range.

Kojima himself said it was 300kg. You do know the peak human ratings are for things like benchpresses and the like, not a single person on the planet can just casually list 300kg with one hand and swing it around with no effort for prolonged periods of time.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

OK, first of all: Chariot, you really need to calm down. No need for Ad Hominem.

Second of all: I agree with all of Chariot's points.