Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Armorchompy]

That's fair, I don't think

Could be my bad. I know I can come of as aggressive at times but it's not meant to be personal or rude. Just a bad habit and not proof reading.

Eh, I'd split it between you and Twellas, but I don't think either of you's actually trying to be an asshole

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I can agree that everyone here needs to chill out a little bit, but I'm still siding with Chariot and Twellas on this argument.

 

[Twellas]

Oh also, here's Snake actively resisting several Telekinetic pushes from Psycho Mantis, the same Mantis who as a child could casually lift Sahelanthropus for hours on end

 

[Twellas]

Eh, I'd split it between you and Twellas, but I don't think either of you's actually trying to be an asshole

It's just been very stressfull to deal with so many messages, and honestly some of the arguments proposed just made my blood boil, it was indeed not my intention to be an ass.

 

[Chariot190]

Mantis' can casually and effortlessly lift Metal Gears with his TK. Snake can withstand his TK and only barely flinch while holding his ground.

So, Mantis' feats are usable here too, and it's literally the most recent and last thing we see in MGS as a franchise, so saying its recent is an understatement. (Ignoring the ******* bullshit that is what is not to be named).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh also, here's Snake actively resisting several Telekinetic pushes from Psycho Mantis, the same Mantis who as a child could casually lift Sahelanthropus for hours on end

Well damn.

 

[Twellas]

And before you even ask, yes Twin Snakes is canon, it's shown in MGS4 and all the MGS1 voicelines in that game are from Twin Snakes, so at worst it's secondary canon, which still means that everything Snake can do in Twin Snakes he can canonically do

 

[Abstractions]

Paz says "impossible" during the ZEKE fight, and there's no indication that Paz saw him lift Cocoon

Yeah, you just described every single gameplay-related thing possible in a game, "press button to do thing" is basically how games as a whole work; what's next, are we going to say that QTEs are gameplay mechanics aswell? Because that's what it is at the end of the day, a QTE.

1 thing contradicting 4, i stay with the 4

It's not flimsy, it's literally what's happening, plain and simple. And I'm not saying that "he needs character development", I'm saying that "him performing that feat would immensly inder the games' narrative as a whole", which is true, because this scene triggers a piece of character development that is essential to the whole series.

I wasn't talking about you in particular, I was talking about the opposition as a whole when saying "you", for all I know you might have been busy. And the thread has been chill overall, passionate, yes, with some sass and back-and-forth, yes, but not outright toxic, come on.

Never once mentioned Paz because it wasn't Paz who made the comment.

If a direct voiceline tells you to push "the Action Button", we typically don't take that seriously from a narrative perspective, and should discount the very thing associated with it.

QTEs are a false equivalency.

That does not matter from the narrative we are presented in front of us. It's much easier to accept he can't do something based on what's presented rather than "well, the series relies on him not doing it for character development". It doesn't work.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Seeing as the sahel feat hasnt been calced yet and the calc group estimates it to be 9-A I really wouldnt advise using it as evidence right now

 

[Abstractions]

Have you ever played a Metal Gear game right? Is Snake walking a game mechanic now? Is Snake punching a game mechanic now? Is Snake shooting a game mechanic now? You do realize that the characters in CODECS will straight up tell you to face which buttons to press to do something, to Snake himself mind you, not even the player, in universe they will be like "Ok Snake, press this button to do this" and Snake will be like "Gotcha, ok now what?". This is every single game.

Are we to assume from this that every game character can beat Psycho Mantis by swapping controller ports?

 

[Chariot190]

Never once mentioned Paz because it wasn't Paz who made the comment.

It was kaz, same thing applies.

If a direct voiceline tells you to push "the Action Button", we typically don't take that seriously from a narrative perspective, and should discount the very thing associated with it.

Welcome to Metal Gear where they don't even try and hide the fact they all know its a game and every responds to it like its basic and is a actual thing.

QTEs are a false equivalency.

It's literally a QTE though.

That does not matter from the narrative we are presented in front of us. It's much easier to accept he can't do something based on what's presented rather than "well, the series relies on him not doing it for character development". It doesn't work.

But, with what's presented it shows he can do it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Y'know, I don't really agree with Twin Snakes being canon at all honestly, MGS4 is hella fanservicey so it showing up there doesn't necessarily canonize it, and the reason they used those voice lines is the same reason those voice lines exist at all- the original recordings of the PS1 game were pretty messy, which was masked by the console's weak sound hardware, but on the Gamecube they would have clearly been outside noise and echoing.

Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Chariot190]

Seeing as the sahel feat hasnt been calced yet and the calc group estimates it to be 9-A I really wouldnt advise using it as evidence right now

What's that gotta do with Lifting Strength? A child Mantis towing a at minimum, 500 ton mecha 4000km without even resting is kinda the most blatant example of a easy feat. Tons of force would also come into play here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Even if it was partially canon, MGS1 is still more canon and in its version of that scene nothing like that TK push is shown.

 

[Chariot190]

Are we to assume from this that every game character can beat Psycho Mantis by swapping controller ports?

MGS4.exe

 

[Chariot190]

Even if it was partially canon, MGS1 is still more canon and in its version of that scene nothing like that TK push is shown.

gray fox doesnt count because in twin snakes this happens
that doesnt count because its twin snakes

Ok so like, either way, there's a casual as shit feat that supports the ratings no matter which game you pick.

 

[Armorchompy]

(Nevermind that Mantis was also just trying to intimidate Snake at that point)

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok so like, either way, there's a casual as shit feat that supports the ratings no matter which game you pick.

Uh, Snake grappling Fox is only in Twin Snakes, not really sure what you're getting at.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What's that gotta do with Lifting Strength? A child Mantis towing a at minimum, 500 ton mecha 4000km without even resting is kinda the most blatant example of a easy feat. Tons of force would also come into play here.

Because resisting TK is no longer going to be a lifting strength feat soon

 

[Chariot190]

Because resisting TK is no longer going to be a lifting strength feat soon

Well we'll see what happens when that thread is posted and if it's accepted. Till then, not a single reason to think TK that can move giant mecha and ragdoll em failing to make someone who's actively holding their ground isn't scalable.
Sucks too, we'd have Class E Pokemon, but I guess not according to you, not that it matters, if it aint a thing yet, dont act like it is.

 

[Twellas]

Never once mentioned Paz because it wasn't Paz who made the comment.

It was tho, if you're talking about the ZEKE fight, that is, now that I think about it, you might not be... whatever.

If a direct voiceline tells you to push "the Action Button", we typically don't take that seriously from a narrative perspective, and should discount the very thing associated with it.

But this is how MG works, it's how the tutorials are handled too, Campbell says "press the action button..." and so on and so forth, it's simply a quirk of the series.

QTEs are a false equivalency.

Not at all, they are also the game telling you "press this button to do this thing", just not vocally but with a huge prompt on the screen

That does not matter from the narrative we are presented in front of us. It's much easier to accept he can't do something based on what's presented rather than "well, the series relies on him not doing it for character development". It doesn't work.

But... it does tho, because Snake can do such things and does multiple times, it's 1 case contraddicting 4 others.

Y'know, I don't really agree with Twin Snakes being canon at all honestly, MGS4 is hella fanservicey so it showing up there doesn't necessarily canonize it

it... kinda does tho, the game being "fanservicey" is irrelevant, because stuff like AC!D wasn't shown, for instance, which demonstrates that there was care put into the selection

Even if it was partially canon, MGS1 is still more canon and in its version of that scene nothing like that TK push is shown.

But as secondary canon, if Snake does something in TTS, he can canonically do it, so the pushing not being shown in the og doesn't matter, since it's not even like we are shown it NOT happening.

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair, Kojima actively wanted Twin Snakes to be that way. It aint like it wasnt on purpose. It's just kinda fucky what does and doesnt count.
(Also saying Mantis didnt do it to Snake in the original is a half truth, we simply dont get a shot of Snake in that scene in the original, but Mantis is still doing the same thing in both).

 

[Chariot190]

Uh, Snake grappling Fox is only in Twin Snakes, not really sure what you're getting at.

That Snake is demonstrably superior to Gray Fox in both games as he kicks his ass in raw hand to hand combat in each.
Hell, I could always take a look at the comics if we really want to go deep.

 

[Abstractions]

It was tho, if you're talking about the ZEKE fight, that is, now that I think about it, you might not be... whatever.

But... it does tho, because Snake can do such things and does multiple times, it's 1 case contraddicting 4 others.

I have been referring to Peace Walker, not ZEKE.

Multiple times in the same game that also says he can't do this thing.

 

[Twellas]

Multiple times in the same game that also says he can't do this thing.

Mate, why are you just ignoring the shit from MGS1 and 5? There are also feats there. And again, the game showing me multiple times that a character can do something takes over the single time it shows the character not being able to do it because him doing so would break the narrative

 

[Chariot190]

Multiple times in the same game that also says he can't do this thing.

The game only says he cant do that thing, once (even though he does it three times, if anything, the game says multiple times he can do that thing).
ZEKE happens after so it's more recent.

Also, as said, Kaz is the only one who thought weight was a issue, not Big Boss himself, he opts to go about things differently, for a multitude of reasons.

Simply saying "Kaz said Big Boss couldnt move it and Big Boss doesnt move it so that means he cant", completely ignoring the 3 feats in that game alone, the fact Kaz even knowing Big Boss' upper limit at that point in time is dubious at best (especially when everyone goes wtf when he does things like that, almost as if they didnt think he could just for him to prove them wrong), and, Peace Walker ends up just offing itself anyway when the panel trick didnt work (Which is why he got desperate in the first place, he didnt go from 0 to 11 right away like you implied above).

(Hell, the fact Kaz asked in the first place as if moving a giant mecha was possible in the first place based on what he knows of Big Boss should raise a few flags as well).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Mate, why are you just ignoring the shit from MGS1 and 5? There are also feats there. And again, the game showing me multiple times that a character can do something takes over the single time it shows the character not being able to do it because him doing so would break the narrative

^^^^

 

[Chariot190]

I really gotta go and look into Port Ops, there's seemingly some ok shit there, in general I mean. Maybe it holds a few more LS feats.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Because resisting TK is no longer going to be a lifting strength feat soon

Man, stop doing this every time. Mentioning threads "soon" to be created means nothing until they are created and accepted.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I really gotta go and look into Port Ops, there's seemingly some ok shit there, in general I mean. Maybe it holds a few more LS feats.

Is Portable Ops canon? I don't remember myself

 

[Chariot190]

Is Portable Ops canon? I don't remember myself

Kojima has said that Port Ops is integral to MGS4, and if Port Ops was forgotten, it'd effect MGS4's plot directly and it'd need to be changed. It's also mentioned in PW. So like, basically yeah.

Also its listed on the profiles so like, we already use it, the fact it's almost certainly canon just confirms its usage.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Man, stop doing this every time. Mentioning threads "soon" to be created means nothing until they are created and accepted.

Man maybe I'm trying to tell you guys about an upcoming revision so we dont create twice as much work editing and then undoing revisions because y'all are hinging the changes on a feat that will no longer be considered legit soon

 

[Chariot190]

Man maybe I'm trying to tell you guys about an upcoming revision so we dont create twice as much work editing and then undoing revisions because y'all are hinging the changes on a feat that will no longer be considered legit soon

Yes, because this is assumed it's universally accepted and goes through without a single hitch and not a single person voices any concerns with it at all.
You DO see the issue with this right?

I'd rather it actually be confirmed and implemented first and accepted instead of going on a "well maybe it would be?".

Better yet, if you want, we can go do that thread first and come back after the results are in?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Portable Ops and Rising, despite not being direct games made by Kojima, have no indication of being non-canon unlike with Acid or Ghost Babel. They should be completely usable feats/scaling wise. Twin Snakes being used is far iffer since its a remake that at least has one WoG implying its not directly canon.

As for the topic on hand I'm also not really for Class M. I get, if we take Twin Snakes at face value and ignore any possible Fox scaling issues I guess, scaling them to Class K. But Class M based on Cocoon seems more like a gameplay induced thing to me. Though as long as the TK resistance = LS justification is still a thing then there's more stuff to it with the Psycho Mantis encounter.

 

[Promestein]

So, what's exactly being argued here? No Class M, at least? That's fine by me.

 

[Chariot190]

WoG implying its not directly canon.

That isn't wog though? That's the studio being unsure if its canon or not so simply didnt risk it, Kojima himself didnt say anything about it. Imo, it's not the MAIN canon, but it's supplementary, as that's, kinda exactly what it was intended to be. As long as it's just showing us more of what happened in the original, it's fine. Like a cutscene showing more of Solid vs Gray Fox, that's fine, it's only showing what happened in gameplay, but seeping into a cinematic. And Mantis? Mantis literally does that in the original, the only difference is this time we get a shot of Snake holding his ground, when in the original, it was offscreen, even if Mantis' actions are the exact same (down to the movements). Shit like that should be fine, it's just adding or showing more of what we know happened. It only gets a little sus when there's shit that we know didn't happen or is a bit contradictory (like Ocelot dropping his gun, though, it's only contradicted in the following game, cant hold it against them for that). I guess if I had to compare, it's kinda like One Punch Man's Manga Vs. Webcomic, it's basically the same just with some expanded scenes, well, it was till Miurata went ******* insane and decided to go balls to the walls with it forcing us to split the two.

based on Cocoon

That's the thing, it isn't just Cocoon. Every Peace Walker feat comes out to Class M (not as high obviously, but M=FA is a hell of a drug, though even without M=FA, they can launch their own body weight at high speeds through the air and Big boss is able to overpower them so he'd scale above whatever they are).
REX is weird, he's probably the lowest one, but at the same time, Gray Fox didn't even break a sweat doing it. And that's if we don't end up scaling REX to Sahel, by virtue of Sahel being REX that can stand up in regards to body mechanics (it literally has a form where it crouches down and transforms into a REX expy, literally officially referred to as "REX mode", to the point it was CALLED REX in promotional material to hide the fact it's a new MG).
TMOF has some good feats and, I opened up MGSV to double check some shit and as far as him crushing Venom with physical strength, looking it over again, what seems to be actually happening is he bear hugs Venom to cook him alive as Venom catches on fire and proceeds to yell, not due to being crushed (TMOF doesn't even make an motion that would indicate that) but rather just to burn him alive.
Psycho Mantis moving Sahel as a child is also a good feat, I've been looking over tapes and Sahel is apparently so heavy that him simply being on the R&D strut made it sink two feet over night, an expected year's worth of sinkage, and if something like a storm hit, the whole strut would sink to the bottom of the ocean due to its failing integrity.

There's probably other shit but I'm more prioritizing looking for AP feats, think I found another too that doesn't involve surface area, is purely KE energy, is used as an offensive attack, etc. I'm just trying to bait his ass into doing the attack so i can see how much he actually destroys (the one rock gave me 0.24 tons, and there's way larger rocks he can destroy, so it looks promising if a medium rock destruction gave that and Venom can tank that with little to no damage).
I also managed to get Sahel to stomp me, and while it actually did a **** ton of damage, Venom lived it, which is notable, because Sahel's stomps can launch its ass like half a km in like 2 seconds.
Also can confirm that Venom can withstand an M1 abrams exploding.

 

[Twellas]

Twin Snakes being used is far iffer since its a remake that at least has one WoG implying its not directly canon.

And we have more than one instane of it being at least secondary canon, because no matter how you slice it, it being shown in MGS4 is proof enough of its canonicity. Of course, it's not primary canon, no one is claiming that it is, it's far more likely secondary canon, so we take the og over it when there are discrepancies, but if something additional is shown in TTS, there is absolutely no reason to take it into accout. In this case it's not a contradiction, becase we simply don't have a shot of what happens to Snake during this scene in the og, but TTS shows us what's happening to him

 

[AKM sama]

I think there was enough of an agreement against Class M lifting strength? What is being discussed currently? This thread has been going on for too long and I think we should just reach a final conclusion soon.

 

[Twellas]

The deal is that new evidence has come up, and we're currently looking into things as it is, just a few hours ago we found that Snake scales to Mantis who has a casual at least Class K feat

 

[Hellbeast]

That’s the one with the mech and Telekinesis right?