Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

yoo, more evidence towards TMOF being stronger than Volgin? niiiiice

Only if you start with the assumption that Volgin can't do that from the getgo, which is what you're doing

 

[Twellas]

Y'know it's kinda funny when you double post cause there's two big bosses taking a smoke in perfect synchronization

Yes it is, but you know what's funnier than that? 3 Big Bosses taking a smoke in perfect synchronization

 

[Armorchompy]

You've completely failed to prove what this "typical standard of the series" even is, as I've said, your "standard of the series" is a mental image until you manage to back it up with actual feats, which you are yet to do. The point about them being "too few" is a non-argument, as they are not too few at all, they would be if there were plenty of lower feats, but there aren't

I have come up with dozens of anti-feats, and you have sold them all off as PIS. Of course that means that technically you have invalidated me, problem is PIS is also case-by-case and therefore is also subjective.

 

[Twellas]

I have come up with dozens of anti-feats

No you haven't, period, the only thing even close to an anti-feat that you brought up is the Jeep shit, which is barely valid since we know Snake broke free anyway

and you have sold them all off as PIS.

No, i either countered them by saying that they are game mechanics (stamina shit in MGS3, recoil), or that you were just wrong (TMOF stuff). i repeat, the only thing that came even close to being an actual argument is the jeep one, nothing else, and even then, Snake broke free right after, so it's not even a counter feat of him not being able to do something. The only other argument that can be made is about Snake not pushing PW, but I've explained in detail how that's inequivocably PIS and if Snake had actually done it a huge chunk of his character development wouldn't have happened.
Saying "if they can lift that much then why didn't they do this" is also a complete non-argument, because you're basically forcing your own idea of what should be done onto the character's actions.

 

[Twellas]

You are greatly overestimating the amount of "PIS" required for this tier to work; ironically enough, the number of feats you'd have to label as "outliers" would be much higher

 

[Armorchompy]

The Jeep shit, people not using the LS against Metal Gears ever EVEN WHEN DIRECTLY ATTACKED BY ONE, the Snakes grunting when lifting a stunned/dead body, and yes, "if they can lift this much why didn't they do this" is indeed an argument when there is a great amount of situations that, from the characters' POV, could only be solved with LS, but weren't. Because they can't. Either way, I'm repeating myself and so are you, and now we're not even discussing if stuff is valid, we're discussing on whether the invalidity of the stuff is valid, which is kind of stupid.

 

[Twellas]

And this thing of "the standard of the series" is such a nebulous concept, like, in the series guns are displayed as a thread, but there are also like 10 feats of guys dodging automatic fire point-blank, this clearly contradicts the "standard of the series" that guns are a threat, but nobody seems to bat an eye at that (yes, there are more feats, but you get my point, it's still a massive "standard of the verse" being subverted)

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, I perfectly agree it's nebulous, which is why I'm saying it's subjective. If I believed it was completely and unarguably correct that Class M is the biggest fattest outlier, I would just be saying you're wrong. And I do think you are, but I understand why you think what you think, just heavily disagree with it.

 

[Twellas]

people not using the LS against Metal Gears ever

They did 3 times lmao, which you are trying to ignore

the Snakes grunting when lifting a stunned/dead body

And Kratos struggles to open a normal chest while being able to bench press planets, what even is this point, man?

"if they can lift this much why didn't they do this" is indeed an argument when there is a great amount of situations that, from the characters' POV, could only be solved with LS

There's literally only 1 case in which LS was the only option, 1, the Peace Walker thing, which I've already broken down.

we're not even discussing if stuff is valid, we're discussing on whether the invalidity of the stuff is valid, which is kind of stupid.

No it's not, we're just discussing whether these feats can be taken into account or not, it's kind of a huge ******* deal

 

[Armorchompy]

They did 3 times, all with the same mechanic in the same game, and are constantly treated as being unable to do so otherwise.

Kratos' feats are much more consistent, nevermind that those chests are magicky and all.

The Peace Walker thing, you've addressed only from an out-of-universe perspective, and of course that is an explaination, but that doesn't mean it cannot be used as an argument. Multiple Metal Gears in the series have stomping attacks, and those are impossible to defend oneself again. There's also characters being locked in a prison, they could just tear out the front door while the guard is gone, and plenty of minor things like that. Once again, none of this is enough to build a defense by itself. But there's so much of it, you cannot possibly ignore it.

The feats exist and therefore can be taken into account, that's literally it. PIS or plot convenience or series standards or game mechanics are all valid reaonings to make them count less, but they are subjective reasonings and even if they weren't, they are all out-of-verse explainations, which mean the arguments can and should all still be used when determining this kind of thing

 

[Twellas]

They did 3 times, all with the same mechanic in the same game, and are constantly treated as being unable to do so otherwise.

Ignoring the fact that one of the feats comes from MGS1, so they are not all from the same game
No, they are not "constantly treated as being unable to do so otherwise", you are simply taking them "not doing it more" as definitive proof of them "being treated as if they can't", which is not the same thing, not even close, really

Kratos' feats are much more consistent, nevermind that those chests are magicky and all.

Are you seriuosly not immediately dropping this point? Are you this desperate for arguments?

The Peace Walker thing, you've addressed only from an out-of-universe perspective, and of course that is an explaination, but that doesn't mean it cannot be used as an argument.

It can, but I've given a logical reason for the discrepancy, that being that if it wasn't this way, the whole narrative of the series (Big Boss' villainy is kind of the main thing in MG) would have crumbled.

Multiple Metal Gears in the series have stomping attacks, and those are impossible to defend oneself again

So what? Raiden in MGR can't stop EXCELSUS' attacks either, doesn't change the fact that it flips its shit right after. Giving the player the ability to completely block an attack isn't merely a matter of canonicity, it's also game balance. The fact that sometimes you can't do something in gameplay doesn't invalidate the times you can.

There's also characters being locked in a prison, they could just tear out the front door while the guard is gone, and plenty of minor things like that

Yeah, next thing you're gonna ask is why Snake doesn't just kick down the doors but instead looks for keycards, right? Come the **** on man, at this point I'm surprised you haven't asked "why can't the punch hole in walls in the game" yet

Once again, none of this is enough to build a defense by itself. But there's so much of it, you cannot possibly ignore it.

I can tho, because it's all either extremely evidently due to the game being... a game, and thus necessitating obstacles, or plain wrong; just like Dante can't simply wreck the Qliphoth roots blocking his way, or just like Kratos can't just punch the earth and destroy everything to facilitate his quest, in the same way Snake can't just kick the door open to avoid the torture scene, beause there would be no game if he did, it's the nature of the medium itself, it's like invalidating every single speed feat from comics because "they are still images, we can't know the timeframe", you are disengenuously using the very nature of the medium against itself to invalidate it.

And no, don't even try to say that the same thing could be applied to the LS feats, because the PW ones are optional and the MGS1 one happens in a cutscene

 

[Armorchompy]

Look, man, your logic is all based on subjective claims. Not that they don't make sense, but you're still just using subjective stuff. Let's just get voting or something and stop wasting the other's time.

 

[Hellbeast]

What the **** did I miss

 

[Twellas]

Look, man, your logic is all based on subjective claims

So is yours, the difference is that i have 3 (more like "at least 3", really) legit feats backing it up, you don't, and you are trying to counter the feats by using gameplay mechanics, which the wiki doesn't accept

 

[Twellas]

You're calling 3 feats "outliers" without presenting any other actual feats that demonstrate that what is usually displayed in the verse is below them, you're basically going off of a feeling that "this level of strength is too much for the verse", and you support this feeling (I don't have any other word to describe it) by trying to impose what a character should have done in a given situation and taking gameplay mechanics

 

[Twellas]

"Why doesn't Snake just walk up to Sniper wolf instead of sniper-battling her? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"
"Why doesn't Snake just move Meryl from Sniper Wolf's bullet? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"
"Why doesn't Snake just go 2h2 against Vulcan Raven's minigun? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"

This is basically what you're doing, and no, it's not a strawman, it's a reductio ad absurdum

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn't matter, still all subjective

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm tired of debating this, we're all just gonna say the same shit, I'm gonna say the same things, the same myriad of anti-feats, and you're gonna keep on calling them PIS, maybe they are, maybe they aren't, we sure as hell aren't gonna determine that by ourselves

 

[SpookyShadow]

I still stand by Twellas' side when it comes to voting. His points make most sense to me, I seriously don't know what do we classify an outlier at this point. IMO, the "anti-feats" are not very overwhelming, and shit happening in just one game is totally not a reason to dismiss it.

@Armorchompy That's our job to determine what's PIS and what's not tbh... Happens many times.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm voting for Twellas' Side as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, and I don't think it is, which is why I am saying it's subjective.

 

[Twellas]

the same myriad of anti-feats, and you're gonna keep on calling them PIS

Nah, I'm gonna call them gameplay mechanics, because they aren't even PIS mostly, at most they'd be GIS, "Game Induced Stupidity" due to the game needing to have obstacles, but shit like the recoil and the MGS3 stamina stuff are literally just the textbook definition of a game mechanic

 

[Twellas]

Voting on what is basically an argument out of feeling is such a bad idea, either side will feel (and will be, essentially) robbed, because the other side's only virtue will have been having more people feeling the same thing. I don't agree with such a big thing going to votes

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree recoil and stamina can be put away, for what that matters, they're pretty minor arguments all things considered. And yes, I don't think votes are optimal, but I'm not changing my mind on this topic, and I don't think I can change yours. For the matter, if I lose I'll try to take it in stride, in the end it's not like characters I like are made weaker by this, quite the opposite

 

[Twellas]

Doesn't matter, still all subjective

The fact that an argument is subjective doesn't mean it's immune to being fallacious, and that's what I think your argument is, fallacious and out of touch with the medium it refers to, and I say it not based on subjective elements, but objective ones.
But you're right about the fact that you can't change my mind, and you're also probably right about me not being able to change yours.

 

[Moritzva]

Based on what was said before, I'm still firmly against Class M lifting strength due to the context and other feats around it. The only supporting feats, to me, are rather weak.

I'd like to know if you've decided anything on AP, though.

Keep in mind that I'm not a MGS expert and this is simply a neutral, outside opinion, so take my words with a grain of salt.

 

[Twellas]

The matter is that one of the Class M feats doubles as an AP feat, and we're currently in the process of compiling and calculating feats, but I gotta ask, how are the 3 supporting feats "weak" in any way shape or form? Especially when there are no other maximum-exhertion LS feats to speak of?

 

[Armorchompy]

The AP has to be determined a bit cause we need more calcs, right now it looks like it could either be 8-C or 9-A, but I think this kind of discussion will be concluded more smoothly since it's not a matter of outlierness.

 

[Abstractions]

Nah, I'm gonna call them gameplay mechanics, because they aren't even PIS mostly, at most they'd be GIS, "Game Induced Stupidity" due to the game needing to have obstacles, but shit like the recoil and the MGS3 stamina stuff are literally just the textbook definition of a game mechanic

Then why do we simply refuse to accept the possibility of Cocoon pressing being a game mechanic?

Big Boss desperately wanted to stop Peace Walker, if he could have easily pushed it overboard then why didn't he? Why did he instead resort to shooting the pod instead of finding any other solution? At this point in the game we would already know Boss can lift Cocoon because it happens beforehand, so why are all the characters convinced that it's hopeless and impossible to move when they would have already seen and congratulated Boss on the Cocoon pressing earlier in the game which is also way heavier than Peace Walker? (500 tons vs. 14,513 tons)

When did random gameplay elements suddenly take precedence over lore?

"Why doesn't Snake just walk up to Sniper wolf instead of sniper-battling her? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"
"Why doesn't Snake just move Meryl from Sniper Wolf's bullet? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"
"Why doesn't Snake just go 2h2 against Vulcan Raven's minigun? This is a clear indication that he's not a bullet timer"

This is basically what you're doing, and no, it's not a strawman, it's a reductio ad absurdum

Yes, but 4 feats are more than enough to be considered consistent under normal circumstances, wanna know what an actual outlier is? Snake grappling Vamp, THIS is an outlier: happens once and is VASTLY above anything else shown by Snake, which is why, guess what? WE DON'T SCALE SNAKE TO VAMP. Even just saying that 4 feats are ALL outliers goes against the very meaning of "outlier".

I know these are much earlier, but I'll comment on them now.

Snake's Supersonic+ calculation has problems. As in, it doesn't reference the figure it receives the 20km from, and should be removed based on that and on similar principle to the Death Stranding speeds; the system itself cannot accurately convey the distance it says it is.

Also, suggesting Snake just grappled Vamp and nothing else removes the context from that scene. You have to gun down Vamp to the point of incapacitation in order to even attempt to grapple him, so there's no way he's offering up resistance at all. Attempting to use this as an outlier to support the mecha lifting is dishonest.

I am firmly against the Class M.

 

[AKM sama]

Been following this thread for a while now and I think Abstractions makes a lot of sense.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Im still against it as well

 

[The_Impress]

All come from a single game, and next best feats are what, thousand times weaker?

Peacewalker just has blatantly different showcase from the rest of the games, seems to me. If any other games have something even remotely close to it, I will buy the Class M logic, otherwise it's an unreliable representation of statistics.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I was against it with my own reasons, but Abstractions has expanded upon my gripes so I'll just say that I agree with her.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If any other games have something even remotely close to it, I will buy the Class M logic, otherwise it's an unreliable representation of statistics.

Pretty sure the only one even close is MGRR

 

[Chariot190]

What did I miss. I crashed hard as **** last night for some reason. We still on the LS shit? I'm more concerned with the AP shit. I already mentioned I think but the Pupa likely has 8-C KE.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What did I miss. I crashed hard as **** last night for some reason. We still on the LS shit? I'm more concerned with the AP shit. I already mentioned I think but the Pupa likely has 8-C KE.

Class M is still getting doubted, yes.

 

[Chariot190]

if any other games have something even remotely close to it

I mean, MGS1 has Gray Fox halting a stomp from REX. So like, if it's just a matter being more than just Peace Walker, there's that.
(Also Mantis ***** out feats every other game, but idk how you'd scale his in regards to LS, AP and durability is easy to scale but LS is a bit much, just know he has feats around that level as well for what its worth).

 

[Armorchompy]

Gray Fox's feat is probably gonna be Class K though, that's over a thousand times weaker than the Cocoon feat

 

[Chariot190]

Gray Fox's feat is probably gonna be Class K though, that's over a thousand times weaker than the Cocoon feat

M=FA (though, it may be hard to figure out the speed and deceleration, it looks kinda slow motion). And his feat is done without even breaking a single sweat, hell, he even holds a conversation while doing it.
A super casual lower end Class M feat doesn't serve as a counter to a higher end Class M feat, if said feat was done with the effort it takes one to pick up a cup.

 

[Armorchompy]

If the speed cannot be calculated then all you have is Rex, who's 500 tons and is still standing on the other foot, therefore it'd be something closer to 250 tons at most, which is literally 1200 times under the Cocoon feat