Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Twellas]

yeah, and the TMOF one, which is very likely not Class M but still probably Class K, and casual

 

[Twellas]

And I mean, since the main point of the opposition is that the feats come all from one game, finding 3 feats from different games is kinda huge

 

[SpookyShadow]

I think there was enough of an agreement against Class M lifting strength? What is being discussed currently? This thread has been going on for too long and I think we should just reach a final conclusion soon.

There's no way we are reaching final conlusion "soon", not only this discussion is not at its end but there's also the OP to analyze

 

[AKM sama]

Over 800 comments in and the OP is still not analyzed. What even has been going on in this thread?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Someone just decided to downgrade MGS and supporters just decided to stand their ground, that's what was going on in this thread.

 

[Twellas]

Over 800 comments in and the OP is still not analyzed. What even has been going on in this thread?

Actually 4, 5 or even 6 pages were dedicated to the OP. then Weekly brought up the fact that the 8-B calc wasn't valid, and the focus shifted

 

[Armorchompy]

I still don't agree with secondary canon Twin Snakes, it shows up in MGS4 while AC!D or Ghost Babel don't because MGS4, especially that one chapter, is a celebration of the series, and by the series, I mean Metal Gear Solid. There's an actual statement that it isn't canon, acknowledging a game's existance doesn't mean canonizing it. The cutscenes are purposefully not meant to be faithful to the original, Kojima outright asked the cutscene director to do them in his style, which kind of further implies they should not be given much weight, especially since Snake rides on a ******* missile at one point. It's also worth mentioning that in MGS4 itself, Mantis himself specifically shows the PS1 and not the Gamecube, and that the voices are the same between MGS1 and MGSTTS in Japan, so that doesn't count anyway.

 

[Armorchompy]

And the same group that said it isn't canon also wrote Rising, so if we discount them as not being able to say what's canon and what isn't then we can't consider Rising canon either.

 

[Armorchompy]

And we have more than one instane of it being at least secondary canon, because no matter how you slice it, it being shown in MGS4 is proof enough of its canonicity.

Also, what is the "more than one instance"?

 

[Twellas]

it shows up in MGS4 while AC!D or Ghost Babel don't because MGS4, especially that one chapter, is a celebration of the series, and by the series, I mean Metal Gear Solid

flimsy argument really, it's a celebration of the Metal Gear series as a whole, which is why the NSX games are there, and Ghost Babel, being a Metal Gear game, should have been there by this logic

There's an actual statement that it isn't canon, acknowledging a game's existance doesn't mean canonizing it.

The statement wasn't from Kojima himself, but from Sean Eyestone, who merely works at Kojima Productions. And yes, being shown in a canon game, in a scene that almost directly refers to "canon" is if not an outright canonization, a very very strong hint

The cutscenes are purposefully not meant to be faithful to the original, Kojima outright asked the cutscene director to do them in his style, which kind of further implies they should not be given much weight

The fact that Kojima himself was ok with what's shown in the cutscene kinda defeats your whole point; the creator was ok with it=it's part of the creator's vision

And the same group that said it isn't canon also wrote Rising, so if we discount them as not being able to say what's canon and what isn't then we can't consider Rising canon either.

Yeah, Rising isn't canon. THE OTHER GAMES are canon to Rising, but Rising isn't canon to the other games, so I don't know what your point is

 

[Twellas]

And Rising being canon to the previous games is pretty much completely irrelevant powerscaling-wise, since nothing from MGR scales to the previous installments, scales FROM it, but not TO it

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't see how appearing in a game outranks an official statement, even if not made by the person who wrote the games, that's still someone with authority, and it seems to follow the logic for canonicity of other games (Written by Kojima - Canon, Not written by Kojima - Not canon).

You can't look at fanservice in the fanservice chapter and say "Yes, that is good enough proof." It just ain't.

(TTS also has some parts that downright clash with future entries, such as Shadow Moses' remains in MGS4 clearly being inspired SOLELY by MGS1, and especially Ocelot not being able to twirl guns with his left hand, now of course MGS3 was written after TTS, but Kojima knew of that cutscene in it, yet had Ocelot be ambidextrous or at least skilled enough with both hands, almost as if he did not consider that scene canon at all, what a mindblowing idea.)

 

[Armorchompy]

I also just disagree with this idea of "selective canon", if you look at a game where 95% of the cutscenes are expressedly not canon, you can't look at the remaining 5% and say "yup, those are fine, no problem here", especially since the game is a huge tonal shift from the rest of the series.

 

[Twellas]

I don't see how appearing in a game outranks an official statement

You don't see how appearing in a game made by the creator of the series outranks a statement from someone who isn't the creator?

You can't look at fanservice in the fanservice chapter and say "Yes, that is good enough proof." It just ain't.

The chapter is still a chapter, you can't discredit it because it's "fanservice", what kind of argument is that? The game is there, the reason behind why it's there is completely irrelevant

I also just disagree with this idea of "selective canon", if you look at a game where 95% of the cutscenes are expressedly not canon, you can't look at the remaining 5% and say "yup, those are fine, no problem here", especially since the game is a huge tonal shift from the rest of the series.

It's not selective canon tho, it's just "the og takes priority, but TTS still gets taken into account". When there are contradictions or significant shifts we take the og, but for additional stuff there is no reason not to take it, and as a rule of thumb, it's commonly accepted that stuff that happens in secondary canon can canonically happen.
The tonal shift is irrelevant, it was approved by the creator, so it's part of the creator's vision, simple as that

 

[Armorchompy]

There's also an official timeline picture that excludes TTS

http://i3.endoftheinter.net/i/n/26035f588b83cd7ea3bf78078e0c9c4f/Metal-Gear-Snake-Timeline.jpg

And here's an interview in which Kojima himself, wowie, says what he believes is part of the MG series, and does not mention TTS

Kojima Says Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Is the Last 'Metal Gear Solid' - IGN

Kojima: Even if the 'Metal Gear' franchise continues, this is the last 'Metal Gear.'

www.ign.com

"I always say 'this will be my last Metal Gear,'" Kojima said, "but the games in the series that I've personally designed and produced -- Metal Gear on MSX, MG2, MGS1, 2, 3, 4, Peace Walker, and now MGSV -- are what constitute a single 'Metal Gear Saga.' With MGSV, I'm finally closing the loop on that saga."

Wowie, the man with an ego the size of the moon only believes the games he's directed to be canon? Crazy



Deja Vu, you erase all the MG and MGS logos, and The Twin Snakes is nowhere to be found. The mission also ends with you creating the KojiPro symbol, signifying that yes, KojiPro games are the actually canon ones. (He doesn't get Peace Walker, but that's on the helicopter)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Twin Snakes, it shows up in MGS4

As a question, when does it show up in MGS4?

 

[Armorchompy]

It's also worth mentioning, a MGSV guidebook with a pretty detailed timeline does not mention the San Hieronimo incident. This isn't related to TTS, but I thought it should be brought up since Portable Ops is dubiously canon as well, the other stuff I showed also decanonices it.

 

[Twellas]

There's also an official timeline picture that excludes TTS

http://i3.endoftheinter.net/i/n/26035f588b83cd7ea3bf78078e0c9c4f/Metal-Gear-Snake-Timeline.jpg
And here's an interview in which Kojima himself, wowie, says what he believes is part of the MG series, and does not mention TTS

Kojima Says Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain Is the Last 'Metal Gear Solid' - IGN

Kojima: Even if the 'Metal Gear' franchise continues, this is the last 'Metal Gear.'

www.ign.com

"I always say 'this will be my last Metal Gear,'" Kojima said, "but the games in the series that I've personally designed and produced -- Metal Gear on MSX, MG2, MGS1, 2, 3, 4, Peace Walker, and now MGSV -- are what constitute a single 'Metal Gear Saga.' With MGSV, I'm finally closing the loop on that saga."

Wowie, the man with an ego the size of the moon only believes the games he's directed to be canon? Crazy

Doesn't matter, it's in MGS4 when refering directly to canon, all of this doesn't change this fact, unless you wanna say that Kojima had a stroke and accidentally added TTS to MGS4, none of this matters.
And of course it's not on the timeline, it's the same event as MGS1, and obviously the og takes precedence.

Vague statements about "the game's i've produced constitute the saga" don't change the fact that those same "games that constitute the saga" directly show other games as "part of the saga".

Deja Vu, you erase all the MG and MGS logos, and The Twin Snakes is nowhere to be found. The mission also ends with you creating the KojiPro symbol, signifying that yes, KojiPro games are the actually canon ones. (He doesn't get Peace Walker, but that's on the helicopter)

Cool, doesn't matter, the og obviously takes precedence; it's a fun easter egg tho

 

[Twellas]

And then you wonder why this thread is 9 pages, you get hung on every single thing and start page-long discussion over something as simple as "it's shown in a canon game while basically talking about canonicity, it's canon".
Your lengthy argument would make sense if I was trying to say that Twin Snakes takes priority over the og, but I'm not, I'm just saying "hey, maybe this should be considered".

And btw, the wiki already lists Twin Snakes as a secondary and valid canon in the Verse page, so if anything, a discussion about this should be reserved to another thread

 

[Armorchompy]

Dude, Kojima literally lists the games that he considers canon, multiple times, and you ignore all of that because one time he did, one that came before these, he did not exclude it.

Doesn't matter, it's in MGS4 when refering directly to canon, all of this doesn't change this fact, unless you wanna say that Kojima had a stroke and accidentally added TTS to MGS4, none of this matters.

But saying Kojima had three consecutive strokes and "accidentally" excluded TTS from multiple listings of what he considers the true MG saga, AKA canon, is perfectly acceptable?

I don't get hung on every single thing, you say something wrong, and I explain to you why you're ******* wrong, and you keep clinging on to outnumbered and awkward "proof" claiming that everything I say is less impactful. There are FOUR direct statements that TTS isn't canon, three of which from Kojima himself, and ONE, older one that says it is, that the game itself contradicts.

 

[Twellas]

But saying Kojima had three consecutive strokes and "accidentally" excluded TTS from multiple listings of what he considers the true MGS saga, AKA canon, is perfectly acceptable?

He didn't outright say that it wasn't canon, that's the thing, but again, you are taking as "DIRECT statements that TTS isn't canon" simple cases of Kojima not mentioning it, when it could merely be that the og has priority over it, which doesn't change or inder the idea of TTS being a sort of "canon retelling"

 

[Twellas]

Also

the wiki already lists Twin Snakes as a secondary and valid canon in the Verse page, so if anything, a discussion about this should be reserved to another thread

 

[Armorchompy]

If it showing up in MGS4 is a direct statement that it's canon, then it not showing up in GZ is a direct statement that it isn't.

And ******' fine we can do it on any threat you want, I don't care, make it right now, or if you prefer I will.

 

[SpookyShadow]

chill dude lol

 

[Armorchompy]

No I won't, I've been treated like an idiot for arguments far less insane than this, if I'm being offensive I apologize but I think this is an incredibly stupid argument.

 

[Twellas]

Oh btw, it's not just the MS1 voicelines that are from Twin Snakes, in MGS4 Mei Ling's and Naomi's accents, which were present in the og, are gone, and they speak in the way the did in Twin Snakes

 

[Armorchompy]

I am aware of that, but it might just be to follow up on the new voicelines. Still, if you want me to make a new thread I'll mention it there too. Though, the japanese version still uses the OG voices, so that doesn't really matter.

 

[Twellas]

It does tho, because the english dub is as important if not more important to Kojima than the japanese one, he handpicks the voice actors, so there's no way this "doesn't really matter"

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair enough, still not enough to counter my points, but I'll recognize that.

 

[Twellas]

But I don't really have to counter your points, because you're talking as if I'm trying to present TTS as full canon that overtakes MGS1, but I'm not, I'm merely presenting it as valid secondary canon, and for that, the proof I've shown is more than enough. it not being "part of the timeline" makes sense because it's simply a retelling of a more canonically relevant game in the series.

And the stuff I'm presenting isn't even new, wholly different stuff, it still happens in the og, it's just that TTS gives us more info about it: in the og Mantis still moves the controller and still does the hand-push-thingy at Snake, but we don't see what this does to him, in TTS THE SAME THING happens, but we're given more info that in no way contradicts what's shown in the og, and if anything completes it, giving an in-game dimension to Mantis' meta action that was lacking in the og.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not, there is not enough evidence to consider it secondary canon, because nothing I've shown is a direct statement about canonicity except for Kojima's statement. The timeline up until MGSV and Deja Vu are not necessarily about canon itself, they are simply about the MG series. There was absolutely no reason for Kojima not to include TTS in either of them, especially Deja Vu as it is simply a celebration of the series, yet he did indeed exclude them. All of this counters one appearance in MGS4 that once again doesn't say anything about canonicity outright.

 

[Twellas]

There... is.. tho.

You know what? Enough. The wiki considers it valid as of now, so we're gonna consider it valid until that changes, end of story; you can make all the threads you want later on, but as of now, Twin Snakes is canon and its feats are ok to use, so we're gonna use them. If we keep at it we'll never get anywhere

 

[Armorchompy]

Fine by me, if you somehow manage to get Class M approved now, it won't matter since that CRT will remove justifications for it.

 

[Twellas]

Merely 1 justification, and even then, I highly doubt it will, since it's a feat that's also in the og but TTS just expressly shows it to us, so that there's no speculation required

 

[Armorchompy]

If TTS is considered not canon at all, which is what I'm shooting for, it won't be usable at all.

 

[Twellas]

Again, it will, because the SAME EXACT SCENE is in the og. Mantis moves the controller, and if "reading the memory card" correlates in-game to "reading Snake's mind" it logically follows that "moving the controller" would mean "moving Snake". Since we never see Snake get ragdolled or anything of the sort, the logical conclusion is that Snake resisted the TK. The TTS scene does NOTHING but make the feat explicit and blatant.

 

[Armorchompy]

Uh, that is one hell of a reach. The only thing that hints at this is a non-canon game, nothing within MGS1 implies that happened. It makes sense, sure, but it's still complete speculation.

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyway, we've still got a lot more votes and opinions against the Class M than those in favor of it.

 

[Twellas]

Uh, that is one hell of a reach.

it's... absolutely not tho: we know for a fact that Mantis' meta stuff actually effects the game universe, if reading the memory card translates to reading Snake's mind it's barely even an assumption to say that the controller would move him.

Anyway, we've still got a lot more votes and opinions against the Class M than those in favor of it.

No not really, you don't

 

[Twellas]

Kinda busy rn, I'll be back asap