Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Chariot190]

I never said it couldn't be calculated, it being slow mo, if anything, makes it even better, as it's actually faster then it appears.
It's just a pain in the ass to actually find a speed for the deceleration as it makes it harder to figure out, doesnt mean "lets throw this out because it isnt super easy to do".

Also 505402kg if memory serves, 505tons rounded down.

 

[Armorchompy]

I said if, as in, in the possibility that it isn't possible to do such a thing, and get an accurate result with it. Though, I don't think one more feat will change the way people here see it by much.

 

[Chariot190]

I was talking to that singular dude who said if it happened in more than one game it'd change his views possibly. (Ignoring Mantis and TMOF, adding them would make 3 games at least, though worse case scenario TMOF's feats scale to Mantis directly, I just cant find him using TK to restrain anyway except MGS4, but that's a whole different context and can of worms, doesnt scale I dont think due to mechanics).
I'm well aware of your stance, wasn't referring to you in the first place.

 

[Newendigo]

I said that it would be better to just let the LS discussion for another thread, but since everyone kept going and decided to count votes, then I do agree with removing Class M for all the aforementioned arguments. Also with what Abstractions mentioned about the supersonic+ speed calculation.

 

[Armorchompy]

I was talking to that singular dude who said if it happened in more than one game it'd change his views possibly. (Ignoring Mantis and TMOF, adding them would make 3 games at least, though worse case scenario TMOF's feats scale to Mantis directly, I just cant find him using TK to restrain anyway except MGS4, but that's a whole different context and can of worms, doesnt scale I dont think due to mechanics).
I'm well aware of your stance, wasn't referring to you in the first place.

I don't think TMOF has anything above throwing that tank, right? Hard to eyeball it but it seems a lot lower than M

 

[Chariot190]

Hard to eyeball it but it seems a lot lower than M

You know tossing even a human sized object hundreds of meters into the air is like, Class K? let alone a fire truck.

 

[Chariot190]

Also with what Abstractions mentioned about the supersonic+ speed calculation.

Which one, there's bullet dodging shit in like, every game.

 

[Armorchompy]

I should mention I have currently no opinions on MG speed

 

[Abstractions]

Which one, there's bullet dodging shit in like, every game.

If you were reading, you would know that I had linked it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Agree with Class M: Twellas, SpookyShadow, XSOULOFCINDERX

Disagree with Class M: Abstractions, Weekly, Imp-ress, Armorchompy, Sir Ovens, Newendigo, AKM Sama, Moritzva

 

[Chariot190]

Oh that? 20km I'm pretty sure comes from an in game stated distance of Outer Heaven's truck stop locations.

 

[Abstractions]

Oh that? 20km I'm pretty sure comes from an in game stated distance of Outer Heaven's truck stop locations.

Could you post a clear link as to where this is stated?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think Chariot also agrees with Class M

 

[Chariot190]

Could you post a clear link as to where this is stated?

Drago Pettrovich Madnar

Dr. Drago Pettrovich Madnar was a Russian robotics engineer responsible for the creation of the TX-55 Metal Gear prototype in Outer Heaven and its successor, Metal Gear D, in Zanzibar Land. During his younger years, he met Kio Marv at the Prague Academy.[3] He eventually became well known in...

metalgear.fandom.com

Best I got on such short notice. I was wrong on it being truck stops but it was about Drago who said it. Citation 10.

Dr. Drago Pettrovich Madnar: I am Dr. Drago Pettrovich Madnar. Metal Gear is 20km north of this building. It's located 100 floors under Building 3. There is only one way to destroy Metal Gear. Attach plastic explosives to the legs of the unit where the armor is thin. The sequence is R-R-L-R-L-L-R-L-L-R-R-L-R-L-R... after that I don't remember. You have to attach 16 sets. The card that gets you out of Building 2 is with Bloody Brad. He's vulnerable to attacks from a rocket launcher. Good luck...

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Having read the thread, I disagree with Class M LS as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Having read the thread, I disagree with Class M LS as well.

Even though there's 3 Big Boss feats, a Gray Fox feat, a Mantis feat, two TMOF feats and who knows what else? That's at least 3 different games as well. (There's Venom being physically above the skulls who are extremely superhuman, but dont know if we got any LS feats for them).

 

[Armorchompy]

No offense but you said it yourself Mantis doesn't scale, TMOF's feats are not calced and I highly doubt they reach that level, same for Fox though a slight bit more believable, (two of the Big Boss feats are also not calced) and saying the Skulls are superhuman means literally nothing

 

[Chariot190]

yourself Mantis doesn't scale,

I said, maybe.

TMOF's feats are not calced and I highly doubt they reach that level

Firetruck getting launched hundreds and hundreds of meters dude. A human getting tossed that same distance is like Class 50+, may even be Class K if I recall, now switch a human out with a 33k kg truck.

(two of the Big Boss feats are also not calced)

And? Doesnt take a genius to figure out that the mecha with the leg strength to jump at like 100mps and dozens and dozens of meters off the ground in a split second has Class M strength. There's a difference between merely benching something and then tossing that something, need an example? Look at Garp's feat, that's the first one that comes to mind. There's absolutely no way it ends up less than Class M.

Gray Fox is the feat that is probably the lowest of them all all things considered.

test

Oh ****, greentext actually quotes on this site now.

 

[Armorchompy]

Take away the maybe, Mantis never uses TK on anyone, and even if he did it's arguable it wouldn't scale anyway.

Hundreds and hundreds seems like a bit much there, besides that's with the assumption TMOF isn't any stronger than Volgin, which is arguable, sicne TMOF shouldn't scale to anyone LS-wise, still ain't calced anyway

Again, I agree the other PW feats should give something like that, still ain't calced though.

 

[Armorchompy]

huh

 

[Chariot190]

Take away the maybe, Mantis never uses TK on anyone, and even if he did it's arguable it wouldn't scale anyway.

He does, just not to restrict them. Maybe. As said, Mantis is a bit fucky, like, we know he can use TK to **** with people and restrict them, Im just unsure if he ever does on Snake.

Hundreds and hundreds seems like a bit much there, besides that's with the assumption TMOF isn't any stronger than Volgin, which is arguable, sicne TMOF shouldn't scale to anyone LS-wise, still ain't calced anyway

It isnt actually, Ishmael and Venom were booking it, and we get a view from the hospital to where they are, and all that's visible is the orange glow. There's absolutely no way it isnt hundreds of meters, actually, it's probably like a few dozen meters between the two trucks alone. TMOF is probably stronger then Volgin to a degree, but as we argued earlier in the thread, it couldn't be by much. Enough to where they're within the same ballpark based on their performances against Ch.20 Venom and Naked Snake. Which was like, half the reason why I was arguing Venom can't be that far behind Big Boss. I agree he's stronger, but by like, millions of times? Which is what's being insinuated here. I doubt it (still scales to Mantis worse case scenario).

Again, I agree the other PW feats should give something like that, still ain't calced though.

Fair enough, I did calc PW's jump though, I did do ZEKE's, but I think I messed up its height (I think I used a height that's a bit to high, though looking at the size chart, turns out ZEKE's leg is taller than REX alone so I don't think there's an issue there, I'm honestly unsure, I'll have to crosscheck how big it is with other Metal Gears) so I may have to redo it as the scaling relies on height. Though that was for AP, not LS. Though I have the numbers in play already, like 46m (huge low end, best footage I got available), same with ZEKE (nobody really bothers to get a good shot of their jumps in full view, so I gotta make do with what's available). Either way, M=FA would toss those bad boys into Class M, how far? Well that's a bit different, but shit's Class M no matter what you do. Tons of force may even be a viable way to look into PW, as it puts almost its full body into its slam.

 

[Twellas]

Then why do we simply refuse to accept the possibility of Cocoon pressing being a game mechanic?

Because there is no gameplay reason for it to be there, it's optional, and there are voicelines directly related to it.

Big Boss desperately wanted to stop Peace Walker, if he could have easily pushed it overboard then why didn't he?

Already tackled this at least 5 times, there's no excuse for this besides PIS

Why did he instead resort to shooting the pod instead of finding any other solution? At this point in the game we would already know Boss can lift Cocoon because it happens beforehand, so why are all the characters convinced that it's hopeless and impossible to move when they would have already seen and congratulated Boss on the Cocoon pressing earlier in the game which is also way heavier than Peace Walker? (500 tons vs. 14,513 tons)

Wow, you just caught up to a point I made 3 pages ago, bravo. As I've said, there is no reason for the PW thing other than PIS, and you're acting like a single instance of PIS takes over 3 feats. Had Snake pushed PW into the ocean, The Boss wouldn't have had a chance to sacrifice herself, "laying down her weapon", thus triggering a crucial character development moment for Snake. Does this remove the fact? No, but it gives it perspective. It's also worth noting that right after this, Snake procedes to Overpower ZEKE, so it's not like Snake's strength was forgotten about at that point.

Also it's ******* hilarious to me how it took the opposition 8 goddamn pages to bring up the fact that "hey, there's a clear counter feat in the very climax of the game they are talking about!", if this doesn't show that basically nobody played the games or gave enough of a shit to even take a look, I don't know what does, and I didn't even hide it or anything, I've mentioned and talked about it multiple times

Peacewalker just has blatantly different showcase from the rest of the games, seems to me

Yeah, no shit, it's by far the most Metal Gear heavy of the series and slightly less serious than the others, this doesn't invalidate its feats in any way, it's still in continuity and it's one of the newer games

 

[Twellas]

Ok, so, the arguments for the opposition essentially amount to

-There is 1 counter statement (it's not even a failed feat, Snake didn't "try and failed" to push PW, he didn't even try)
-Most of the feats are from just one of the games (the game being, would you look at that, the one which has more Metal Gear fights than every other game combined, who would have thought?) which also just so happens to be one of the most story-relevant games in the series, beloved by Kojima himself, it's not like it's some half-assed game, Kojima described it as "his own Metal Gear Solid 5", which clearly shows that a lot of thought and care went into it.

I don't mention "it's an outlier", because you aren't presenting any other, lower feats

 

[Twellas]

Also, about the speed thing, i was clearly refering to combat speed, not travel speed. And I'm neutral on that, if the calc is wrong it's wrong

 

[Chariot190]

Also, about the speed thing, i was clearly refering to combat speed, not travel speed. And I'm neutral on that, if the calc is wrong it's wrong

that is true, I'm neutral on that. Though, in regards to the 20km and hundreds of meter climb, that is stated in game to be the actual distances. It's just a little fucky is all, if there's issue with it other than that then fair enough, assuming it isnt something ridiculous like "the game is old".

 

[Abstractions]

Because there is no gameplay reason for it to be there, it's optional, and there are voicelines directly related to it

Already tackled this at least 5 times, there's no excuse for this besides PIS

Wow, you just caught up to a point I made 3 pages ago, bravo. As I've said, there is no reason for the PW thing other than PIS, and you're acting like a single instance of PIS takes over 3 feats. Had Snake pushed PW into the ocean, The Boss wouldn't have had a chance to sacrifice herself, "laying down her weapon", thus triggering a crucial character development moment for Snake. Does this remove the fact? No, but it gives it perspective. It's also worth noting that right after this, Snake procedes to Overpower ZEKE.

Also it's ******* hilarious to me how it took the opposition 8 goddamn pages to bring up the fact that "hey, there's a clear counter feat in the very climax of the game they are talking about!", if this doesn't show that basically nobody played the games or gave enough of a shit to even take a look, I don't know what does, and I didn't even hide it or anything, I've mentioned and talked about it multiple times

You act as if the voicelines don't directly contradict themselves later on.

Ah. The classic "If it doesn't suit my or the game's narrative it's PIS" argument. A great one.

Yes, it does take over those feats if a pivotal plot point completely contradicts it, and you acting like it doesn't is wrong.

If your only argument is that Snake needed character development when his current character was so desperate to stop Peace Walker that he needed to act out of character to then not do it is mind bogglingly silly.

"Snake proceeds to overpower ZEKE."

Using game mechanics to defend game mechanics, excellent.

Not commenting on the non-argument that is "you don't know what you are talking about when you just posted what you are talking about".

 

[Twellas]

If any other games have something even remotely close to it, I will buy the Class M logic, otherwise it's an unreliable representation of statistics.

In MGS1 Gray Fox halts REX' foot actively trying to squash Snake, REX weights over 500 tons.

in MGS5 TMOF casually throws several fire-trucks thousands of feet into the air at high speed.

There could be more that I'm missing

 

[Twellas]

Ah. The classic "If it doesn't suit my or the game's narrative it's PIS" argument. A great one.

Yes, it does take over those feats if a pivotal plot point completely contradicts it, and you acting like it doesn't is wrong.

1 instance of PIS vs 3/4 feats, one of which happens directly after said PIS. I'll take my chances

"Snake proceeds to overpower ZEKE."

Using game mechanics to defend game mechanics, excellent.

Oh ok, you decided it's game mechanics, good to know

If your only argument is that Snake needed character development when his current character was so desperate to stop Peace Walker that he needed to act out of character to then not do it is mind bogglingly silly.

It's not even arguable really, had Snake pushed PW into the ocean the narrative of the whole series would have crumbled, because Big Boss wouldn't have seen The Boss lay down her weapons, he wouldn't have become bitter and he wouldn't have fallen into villainy, simple as that. Snake destroying PW takes away The Boss' sacrifice, which is integral to Snake's character development, which was already set in stone, mind you, since PW is a prequel

Not commenting on the non-argument that is "you don't know what you are talking about when you just posted what you are talking about".

Took you 8 pages to post a blatant counter feat plastered in the climax of the game that's being discussed. I rest my case, if it took you 8 pages of debate to come up with this, you either haven't played the game, or you didn't even care enough to look it up. And I'd add that you haven't even been following the debate, as I've mentioned this same thing multiple times already. It's not even an argument against you or the opposition, it's just a funny thought

 

[Chariot190]

You act as if the voicelines don't directly contradict themselves later on.

Goes both ways. (Also, later on? Wouldn't it be the Kaz line that gets contradicted later on? It happens before ZEKE, not after).

Ah. The classic "If it doesn't suit my or the game's narrative it's PIS" argument. A great one.

Goes both ways.

Yes, it does take over those feats if a pivotal plot point completely contradicts it, and you acting like it doesn't is wrong.

Plot point
Plot Induced Stupidty.

You realize what you're saying right? Also Twellas ain't wrong, Snake tries to talk to NORAD first, and removes the panels first, Peace Walker then opts to suicide herself. It should also be mentioned that only kaz thought weight was a issue, Big Boss himself makes no mention of the weight, and given how every time he performs a ridiculous lifting feat, the characters in question are absolutely astounded he just did that, it very well could be Kaz just not knowing Big Boss is as strong as he was.

If your only argument is that Snake needed character development when his current character was so desperate to stop Peace Walker that he needed to act out of character to then not do it is mind bogglingly silly.

Hold up, he didnt get desperate till way after that was stated, because taking the panels out didnt work, the thing he was doing consistently throughout the whole game against every single AI Unit, taking the panels to deconstruct the the AI, effectively killing it, while also gathering material for his Metal Gear back at base and >he acts out of character with The Boss.
That's... actually true, he didnt want to kill her a second time, he was stricken with PTSD, to the point he even began remembering events wrong so he didnt have to live with his guilt.

Using game mechanics to defend game mechanics, excellent.

Not a game mechanic, it stops being when voicelines dedicated to the action and event take place. Do you know what a game mechanic even is? Last I checked it wasn't a mechanic at all, Snake getting hungry in Snake Eater is a game mechanic, HP bars are game mechanics, Link getting tired from running five feet in Skyward Sword is a game mechanic. Big Boss stopping ZEKE and almost putting it on its ass and Paz exclaiming in awe and shock that's there's no way that just happened isnt a game mechanic.

 

[Armorchompy]

You're being pretty petty with the last argument Twellas my dude, trust me no matter how dumb you think we are being we think yall are being dumber rn, wouldn't be an excuse for making accusations that we obviously know aren't true

 

[Chariot190]

yall are being dumber rn

Direct personal insults to the persons themselves, not even the arguments? And y'all? I assume you're insulting me as well here right? And Soul too given how he's clearly disagreeing with you as well.

 

[Twellas]

wouldn't be an excuse for making accusations that we obviously know aren't true

No yeah I don't know that they aren't true, that's the fact, because why the **** would you (not you in particular, the opposition as a whole, you actually mentioned it but nobody gave a shit) completely ignore a blatant, BLATANT AND HUGE point in your favout that's absolutely PLASTERED all over the climax of the game we're discussing? What reason could there possibly be for that? That you like to not have proof backing your claim? And again, it's not an argument against you, it's just a funny thought

 

[Armorchompy]

Counterargument: If it's funny, then why aren't I laughing

Gotem

 

[Twellas]

But let's not derail this, I merely pointed out how the opposition just so happened to miss one of the central plot points of the game we're discussing, moving on

 

[Abstractions]

You realize what you're saying right? Also Twellas ain't wrong, Snake tries to talk to NORAD first, and removes the panels first, Peace Walker then opts to suicide herself. It should also be mentioned that only kaz thought weight was a issue, Big Boss himself makes no mention of the weight, and given how every time he performs a ridiculous lifting feat, the characters in question are absolutely astounded he just did that, it very well could be Kaz just not knowing Big Boss is as strong as he was.

Not a game mechanic, it stops being when voicelines dedicated to the action and event take place. Do you know what a game mechanic even is? Last I checked it wasn't a mechanic at all, Snake getting hungry in Snake Eater is a game mechanic, HP bars are game mechanics, Link getting tired from running five feet in Skyward Sword is a game mechanic. Big Boss stopping ZEKE and almost putting it on its ass and Paz exclaiming in awe and shock that's there's no way that just happened isnt a game mechanic.

Big Boss doesn't have to mention the weight itself when the other characters then contradict themselves, Cocoon happens before Peace Walker, so they would already know Boss can lift it so it wouldn't be "impossible".

Ah yes. "Press the Action Button to avoid being crushed"

I rest my case.

1 instance of PIS vs 3/4 feats, one of which happens directly after said PIS. I'll take my chances

Oh ok, you decided it's game mechanics, good to know

It's not even arguable really, had Snake pushed PW into the ocean the narrative of the whole series would have crumbled, because Big Boss wouldn't have seen The Boss lay down her weapons, he wouldn't have become bitter and he wouldn't have fallen into villainy, simple as that. Snake destroying PW takes away The Boss' sacrifice, which is integral to Snake's character development, which was already set in stone, mind you, since PW is a prequel

Took you 8 pages to post a blatant counter feat plastered in the climax of the game that's being discussed. I rest my case, if it took you 8 pages of debate to come up with this, you either haven't played the game, or you didn't even care enough to look it up. And I'd add that you haven't even been following the debate, as I've mentioned this same thing multiple times already. It's not even an argument against you or the opposition, it's just a funny thought

You'll take your chances on something blatantly contradicting itself? Good to know.

"It's not even arguable"? A flat out lie, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. The fact that you have to justify a plot point that blatantly contradicts your narrative with "he needs character development" is flimsy. Sorry.

It took my awhile to respond because of how blatantly toxic you have been, and nothing to do with my ability to argue.

 

[Chariot190]

Big Boss doesn't have to mention the weight itself when the other character then contradict themselves, Cocoon happens before Peace Walker, so they would already know Snake can lift it so it wouldn't be "impossible".

Was kaz there to watch it happen? All Kaz has to go on is audio. And huey, well Huey isnt even in contact with Snake. Also >they.
Who's they?

Ah yes. "Press the Action Button to avoid being crushed"

Have you ever played a Metal Gear game right? Is Snake walking a game mechanic now? Is Snake punching a game mechanic now? Is Snake shooting a game mechanic now? You do realize that the characters in CODECS will straight up tell you to face which buttons to press to do something, to Snake himself mind you, not even the player, in universe they will be like "Ok Snake, press this button to do this" and Snake will be like "Gotcha, ok now what?". This is every single game.

I rest my case.

I don't know why anyone would actually use this as an example past the year 1997.

You'll take your chances on something blatantly contradicting itself? Good to know.

I mean, yeah? As said, it goes both ways, you're literally doing it too. This is literally just the pot calling the kettle black.

"It's not even arguable"? A flat out lie, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. The fact that you have to justify a plot point like that blatantly contradicts your narrative with "he needs character development" is flimsy. Sorry.

He isn't wrong though, everything he said is indeed true in context and in meta. And then it is indeed supported by other games, just to varying degrees.

 

[Twellas]

Big Boss doesn't have to mention the weight itself when the other character then contradict themselves, Cocoon happens before Peace Walker, so they would already know Snake can lift it so it wouldn't be "impossible".

Paz says "impossible" during the ZEKE fight, and there's no indication that Paz saw him lift Cocoon

Ah yes. "Press the Action Button to avoid being crushed"

Yeah, you just described every single gameplay-related thing possible in a game, "press button to do thing" is basically how games as a whole work; what's next, are we going to say that QTEs are gameplay mechanics aswell? Because that's what it is at the end of the day, a QTE.

You'll take your chances on something blatantly contradicting itself? Good to know.

1 thing contradicting 4, i stay with the 4

"It's not even arguable"? A flat out lie, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. The fact that you have to justify a plot point like that blatantly contradicts your narrative with "he needs character development" is flimsy. Sorry.

It's not flimsy, it's literally what's happening, plain and simple. And I'm not saying that "he needs character development", I'm saying that "him performing that feat would immensly inder the games' narrative as a whole", which is true, because this scene triggers a piece of character development that is essential to the whole series.

It took my awhile to respond because of how blatantly toxic you have been, and nothing to do with my ability to argue.

I wasn't talking about you in particular, I was talking about the opposition as a whole when saying "you", for all I know you might have been busy. And the thread has been chill overall, passionate, yes, with some sass and back-and-forth, yes, but not outright toxic, come on.

 

[Armorchompy]

Eeeeh, bein' on the other side I wouldn't say toxic, but it's definitely been pretty aggressive and unpleasant lately

 

[Chariot190]

but it's definitely been pretty aggressive and unpleasant lately

Could be my bad. I know I can come of as aggressive at times but it's not meant to be personal or rude. Just a bad habit and not proof reading.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I'm still siding with Chariot and Twellas. These are pletty blatant.