Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Sir_Ovens]

Two more feats that come from the same game makes the entire game just PIS and those feats outlier together with the main feat.

Gray Fox is a cyborg. Snake is not. The latter grappling would be the outlier.

If it's outlier, it wouldn't even be considered for anything. So it's not proof of an upper limit. Quite literally it's nothing at all.

 

[Twellas]

Just listen to yourself man, your entire point against these 4 arguments is "it's all an outlier". Absolutely laughable

 

[Twellas]

Maybe, MAYBE when the only way you have to discredit a certain tier is to say that a WHOLE GAME'S FEATS don't count, and to call another comparable feat an outlier, the tier isn't worth discrediting to begin with

 

[Sir_Ovens]

A single installment in a huge franchise does not dictate it entirely.

If this were one game in a 2 installment franchise, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But this is 1 game spanning multiple main series games and spinoffs that have vastly lower feats for people who are not strength enhanced. Show me consistency across all games. If you can do this, I will side with you 100%.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think saying all of PW is an outlier is right, I just think the feats are outliery by themselves.

Snake knocking around Fox is not a showing of LS being scaleable between the two. No matter his strength, Fox is not that heavy all things considered. A strong blow's gonna knock him away, and that would happen even if Snake had Class 1. Considering Fox manages to push REX while Snake doesn't, I think it's fair to say Fox is at the very least physically stronger. However, Gray Fox is not as physically strong as future cyborgs or Vamp, that definitely is true, so Snake scaling to Fox wouldn't be an outlier (at least by that logic, even if this feat was legit I'd disagree with Class M Snakes), he just doesn't.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also it's worth mentioning we don't give large beings LS by being able to carry themselves around anymore, no matter their agility. So saying Zeke is Class M is a bit iffy.

 

[Twellas]

The very idea, the VERY IDEA of calling multiple feats "outliers" is an oxymoron, be they from a single game or not it doesn't matter, it's not even like PW is an old game or anything of the sort, it's the second last game, at this point Kojima had a very clear idea about where the verse was headed power-wise, it makes NO SENSE to say that he suddenly just lost his mind and said "you know what? Let's make Snake like a trillion times stronger for no reason", it's not even PIS, you can get through the fight without having these LS feats happening. Peace Walker is BY FAR the most Metal-Gear-Fight heavy game in the series, ffs there are more MG battles in this game than in all other games combined (Pupa, Chrysalis, Cocoon, Peace Walker1, Peace Walker2, Zeke just in PW/REX in MGS1, RAY in MGS2, Shagohod in MGS3, RAY in MGS4. Sahel in MGS5; 6vs5), OF COURSE there'd be a much higher number of Mecha-lifting feats there than in the rest of the series, and I'd almost (not really, but let's just say this for the sake of the argument) agree with you if it wasn't for Gray Fox' feat in MGS1.

Snake didn't "knock out" Gray Fox, he took his arm, twisted it against his will and threw him away, this is a textbook definition of "overpowering", and this is all ignoring the fact that Snake beat Gray Fox in a canonically h2h fight, so the very idea of Snake not even being comparable (because this is what you are saying, by saying that snake doesn't scale to Gray Fox and Big Boss you're saying that Snake is thousands of times weaker than Gray Fox) is directly contraddicted by the game portraying the two as physically comparable in every regard in a "battle to the death" (Gray Fox's words, not mine). And about the fact that "Fox manages to push REX while Snake doesn't" I won't even comment, it's blatant confirmation bias, as nothing in the scene implies that Snake couldn't have lifted it aswell, you can clearly see in the game that REX' foot is nowhere near Snake when Gray halts it, which means that Snake was in no danger of being crushed

we don't give large beings LS by being able to carry themselves around anymore, no matter their agility. So saying Zeke is Class M is a bit iffy.

Zeke doesn't get Class M by walking around, it gets it by being able to jump several hundred feet in the air in a fraction of a second

 

[AKM sama]

Why waste time and make a separate thread when we already started discussing here? I'll just remake the OP once the downgrade is done

A separate thread is better if the topic is different than this thread's OP. It will be difficult for people to know what is going on coming into the thread to evaluate. Similarly, for later down the line if somebody views the so called "downgrade thread", the will be lost here.

TLDR: create a new thread for downgrades, this thread is already too long and all over the place.

 

[Moritzva]

"And Mantis telekinetically flying Sahelantropus over 4000km (Seychella waters to 50ml inland Africa) at speeds comparable to a UTH-66 Black Hawk. Basic 8-C KE feat via telekinesis."

... I'm sorry, why are we going back to using KE feats, now? As I can see many, many reasons to be dubious of such, especially when it's one of the few feats favoring this.

Let's continue on with the debate, and keep it moving, if nobody minds. Personally, I agree with Weekly/the proposal on this point specifically - KE and electricity feats are not good stand-ins to prove the current tier is not an outlier. A lot of feats have been mentioned to not be good, so can someone bring up any evidence of why our tiering isn't an outlier, separate from the dubious/debunked evidence above?

 

[Moritzva]

Oh my, a metric crapload of messages were posted while I was typing. My bad. Give me a quick moment to catch up.

Edit: I read the above about Class M, and similar to Ovens, I disagree and I think it's an outlier.

 

[Armorchompy]

Multiple feats can be outliers if they are in the minority and heavily contrast the estabilished canon. I am not saying it's because of the game they're from, or because of literally anything else. And no, Kojima did not have a clear idea of what the series' power level was, because he doesn't give a shit about that, I'm willing to bet. The series is combat-oriented, sure, but as MGS4 Vamp vs Snake shows us, it clearly operates under a "everyone can fight everyone" mentality, as does a lot of stuff that isn't specifically focused around power levels.

Hes not twisting his elbow, he's using it as a means of leverage to throw Fox, who was stunned by the previous blow. Furthermore, this is from Twin Snakes, which, canon or not, is definitely less canon than MGS1, which has none of this. Nevermind that while Fox was fighting to kill, he actively relishes in the pain of the blows he receives, so it's not impossible he didn't put up a resistance for the sake of getting hit, considering the fight was basically over already, and that he wanted Snake to realize who he was.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's also the fact that he struggles to keep up RAY, who was only stomping down on him relatively lightly with its other foot on the ground, it's not like he was lifting the whole mech, and RAY itself is a LOT lighter. Hell, if anything this is an anti-feat, holding up RAY's 500 tons, a Class K feat, was rather difficult for Fox, despite the fact that he effectively only had one foot pushing down on him. And when RAY lifts its legs to stomp down harder, he's knocked away easily, unable to put up a resistance. This being a character who's at least comparable and possibly superior to Big Boss, even by your metric.

 

[Twellas]

Multiple feats can be outliers if they are in the minority and heavily contrast the estabilished canon.

Which they don't, because the "established canon" is a mental image you made that says that "it's simply impossible that they are that strong". Actually, can you post some contradictory feats? Because you all speak at length about how these feats are just a minuscule minority and that the average feat is much much lower, can you show me some feats that show character struggling (actually struggling, like, putting all of their strength, stuff like the Davy Crocket doesn't count, they move that shit around like toiled paper) under lesser weights? Better yet if it's one of the Snakes at their peak.

And no, Kojima did not have a clear idea of what the series' power level was, because he doesn't give a shit about that, I'm willing to bet. The series is combat-oriented, sure, but as MGS4 Vamp vs Snake shows us, it clearly operates under a "everyone can fight everyone" mentality, as does a lot of stuff that isn't specifically focused around power levels.

Except that Snake cannot harm Vamp with his physical attacks and has to resort to weapons, the extent to which he's comparable to Vamp is that he can grab him after "putting him to sleep" with his guns. Also, battle is different from power level, Kojima migh (he doesn't tbh) have a more liberal approach to scaling, but there are no very noteworthy cases of him just ******* up the power balance of the verse.

Hes not twisting his elbow, he's using it as a means of leverage to throw Fox, who was stunned by the previous blow. Furthermore, this is from Twin Snakes, which, canon or not, is definitely less canon than MGS1, which has none of this

He's twisting his arm around, don't try to spin it in a way where it seems like he just made him trip or something like this, him being "stunned" by the previous blow is a ridiculous claim because "being stunned" doesn't make you go limp and just take blows nor does it make you millions of times weaker instantaneously. Twin Snakes it at the very least secondary canon, which means that anything Snake does in Twin Snakes, he can canonically do, so it not happening in the og is completely irrelevant. All of this is also completely ignoring the fact that Snake and Gray Fox had just fought an hand to hand battle to the death, and Gray Fox being millions of times stronger in terms of LS is something that would have surely come into play during the fight, since Gray Fox would canonically know and use CQC, a wholly grab-based martial art; in general, the idea of Snake beating Gray Fox despite being not even comparable to him in terms of LS is ridiculous and not supported by the game

Nevermind that while Fox was fighting to kill, he actively relishes in the pain of the blows he receives, so it's not impossible he didn't put up a resistance for the sake of getting hit

Complete headcanon, Gray Fox said it was a battle to the death, saying that he wasn't going all out is plain headcanon.

There's also the fact that he struggles to keep up RAY, who was only stomping down on him relatively lightly with its other foot on the ground, it's not like he was lifting the whole mech, and RAY itself is a LOT lighter.

You mean REX, right? REX weights at leas 500 tons, and was actively applying preassure on top of the weight, and Fox wasn't even struggling the guy literally cracks jokes while lifting the foot and doesn't show sign of struggle, he does in Twin Snakes, but, as you yourself said, the og takes priority and we use Twin Snakes just to gather additional material that wasn't in the original, when the same thing happens in the og and in Twin Snakes, we go with the og.

 

[Twellas]

KE and electricity feats are not good stand-ins to prove the current tier is not an outlier.

That's the deal, THERE IS NO "CURRENT TIER", all we have ar haphazard comments from Weekly saying "this is probably 9-A" "this calc is tier 8 but should probably be 9-A" etc

 

[Twellas]

Like for instance, Venom already has a calc'd 8-C feat, but me and Chariot found out that the calc used a tank whose mass is 1/3 of the actual tank that inspired the MGS5 one, me and Chariot are the ones actually presenting any feats at all, the "opposition" hasn't presented anything noteworthy as a counter, it's not like they are proposing a slew of 9-A feats and we're here posting 8-C KE feats

 

[Moritzva]

Well, then future efforts in this thread should be into finding a feat, and I will step aside until that happens.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, characters having to deal with the recoil of their guns, being knocked around by explosions, being weighed down by their equipment, getting pinned down for a bit when the jeep falls on him at the end of MGS1, being knocked away by moving vehicles hitting him, and obviously the fact that they never use that LS at any other time in the series, and that weaker feats are treated as superhuman.

Actually, I will spin it as that, because that's exactly what's happening, he's grabbing the arm, and then throwing Fox, he's not twisting the elbow against his will, it moves a bit at most, and then he throws him.

I meant REX, yes. And fair enough, FOX might not be super stressed, but he is still not doing it effortlessly considering REX immediately knocks him away afterwards, and that's with probably a lot less than 500 tons pushing down on him even on the second kick/stomp. Making jokes isn't a sign of being casual with cyborgs, since it's not like they'd be running out of breath.

The opposition's counterargument is that the calc failed to account for surface area. Also that link's broken (actually nvm VSBW seems to be down)

 

[Twellas]

Looks like the only ones even bothering to bring anything up are me and Chariot. BTW, why are KE calcs "not good stand-ins"? Can't they be used as proof or support for a tier?

 

[Twellas]

I dunno, characters having to deal with the recoil of their guns

Are you seriously even bringing this up when Snake can tank the recoil from a Railgun?

being knocked around by explosions

... uh? What's that got to do with anything?

being weighed down by their equipment

When does this EVER come into play? FFS Naked canonically carries all of his guns around and NEVER displays fatigues, neither do other Snakes

getting pinned down for a bit when the jeep falls on him at the end of MGS1

the only halfway valid thing you said, but Snake freed himself right after with absolutely no issues, so it's far more likely that it's due to dramatic framing, you know, Snake being stuck while Liquid lumbers towards him, to build tension

being knocked away by moving vehicles hitting him

again, what does this have to do with anything? And when does this even happen?

and obviously the fact that they never use that LS at any other time in the series, and that weaker feats are treated as superhuman

This is... man, are you even trying? So the fact that they don't usually use LS is supposed to counter the actual LS feats going on? And so what if "weaker feats are treated as superhuman"? THEY ARE! The Davy Crocket stuff being far below what Snake has displayed doesn't change the fact that it's vastly above anything a normal human could do

Actually, I will spin it as that, because that's exactly what's happening, he's grabbing the arm, and then throwing Fox, he's not twisting the elbow against his will, it moves a bit at most, and then he throws him.

He's moving THE WHOLE ARM against his will, you can clearly see the shoulder bending, there's absolutely no way THAT could be done to someone millions of times stronger than you

FOX might not be super stressed, but he is still not doing it effortlessly considering how REX immediately knocks him away afterwards

Yes, by kicking him, which has nothing to do with LS

The opposition's counterargument is that the calc failed to account for surface area

then the opposition better recalc it WITH surface area, but maybe do it with the right tank, and considering that Venom was at the very center of the explosion.

No idea why the link's broken, it was fine yesterday, Weekly himself posted it

 

[Armorchompy]

Tanks the recoil of a railgun, but he's still clearly affected.

It's literally a game mechanic that depending on your loadout your stamina depletes faster in MGS3

Dramatic Framing is the reason that happens out of universe, but unless you're implying Snake willingly sat there with a Jeep on his nuts to make the whole scene cooler, it's not a usable explaination. And we don't know how he does it, so saying he did it effortlessly is a bit of a stretch, odds are he and Meryl pushed it away together just barely enough to escape it, it's not flipped over or anything.

You can literally run over The Man on Fire and knock him into water to beat him, that also canonically pins him down for a while in the hospital mission. However, if you run him over in the fight, but don't knock him into water, he'll get up immediately, which implies what he struggled with was pushing the tank(? was it a tank? i don't remember, but it was a vehicle) away, not that he was knocked out by it.

And yes, if the strength that is used by a single character twice is thousands of times higher than what is normally shown, that is a little sus.

Fox has no reason to resist Snake moving his arm, because even if he did prevent him from twisting his arm at all, Snake would still throw him (it might make it easier in fact), and Fox knows that, because they've already fought, and he likely recognized that move. You are literally arguing these characters scale in LS solely because a dubiously canon game shows one moving the other's arm in a takedown that has nothing to do with arm-twisting.

If Fox was strong enough to resist that blow, he would have grabbed the leg, instead of getting hit. He was in the perfect position for it, his hands were already up and all. So Fox is barely able to resist a casual stomp from REX, and unable or at least unwilling to try and block a stronger one.

It's not a matter of the opposition doing it or not, the calculation is invalid no matter what. Heck, since you're the one who's pushing for 8-C, you should get someone to do the calc. And yeah of course that will also be considered. Though, it just seems like the site was down for a while, it's back now.

 

[Twellas]

Tanks the recoil of a railgun, but he's still clearly affected.

Man, you're seriously using recoil as a debunk for LS in a SHOOTING GAME, this has to be the most disengenuous shit I've seen in a while

It's literally a game mechanic that depending on your loadout your stamina depletes faster in MGS3

Don't even have to debunk this, you did it, it's a GAME MECHANIC. The wight of the weapons doesn't come up in MGS1, MGS2, only as a gameplay mechanic in MGS3, MGS4, Peace Walker and MGS5, this is an absolute non-argument

Dramatic Framing is the reason that happens out of universe, but unless you're implying Snake willingly sat there with a Jeep on his nuts to make the whole scene cooler, it's not a usable explaination. And we don't know how he does it, so saying he did it effortlessly is a bit of a stretch, odds are he and Meryl pushed it away together just barely enough to escape it, it's not flipped over or anything.

It is actually, just like PIS is an external reason, so is dramatic framing, both can be used to explain away something it they are appropriate; and I mean, we can clearly see that Snake doesn't even try and get out of there after the first push, he's very cool throughout the whole ordeal, so I don't know what to tell you. In the end, what we know is that Snake got out right after and that he stopped trying to get out immediately after the first try when Liquid approached him, this is hardly an anti-feat at all.

You can literally run over The Man on Fire and knock him into water to beat him, that also canonically pins him down for a while in the hospital mission. However, if you run him over in the fight, but don't knock him into water, he'll get up immediately, which implies what he struggled with was pushing the tank(? was it a tank? i don't remember, but it was a vehicle) away, not that he was knocked out by it.

I- wow, the amount of pure, unadulterated assumption here. 1 What the **** does "getting ran over" have to do with Lifting Strength exactly? 2 The Tank """pinned him down""" for a grand total of 20 seconds, and since the tank outright explodes, we can say that TMOF wasn't even trying to lift it at all. 3 it can 100% be just that the impact stunned him (knocked out isn't the appropriate term here) since right after this Big Boss stuns him for about the same amount of time by running him over with an ambulance. Everything indicated that TMOF was simply briefly stunned and wasn't struggling with lifting it, because EVEN IF he couldn't lift the tank, why not "explode it" like he did right after getting ran over? The only logical explaination is that he was briefly stunned

And yes, if the strength that is used by a single character twice is thousands of times higher than what is normally shown, that is a little sus.

But you haven't provided a single full-exhertion feat for Snake, so there's no "normally shown" to compare the Class M stuff to, what are you talking about?

Fox has no reason to resist Snake moving his arm, because even if he did prevent him from twisting his arm at all, Snake would still throw him (it might make it easier in fact), and Fox knows that, because they've already fought, and he likely recognized that move

Are we in headcanon town and nobody told me? We went from "he was stunned, he couldn't resist" to "he wouldn't resist because he knows that that particular throw would be easier if he opposed resistance", this alone should tell you that maybe it's best to drop this and admit that Snake scales to Gray Fox. Furthermore, if we actually look at the throw, we clearly see that had Gray Fox resisted Snake's "arm bending", Snake wouldn't have had enough leverage on him to throw him away, just look at this, had Gray Fox resisted, Snake wouldn't have been able to push him with the entirety of his torso, which most likely would have meant that Snake wouldn't have been able to throw him.

You are literally arguing these characters scale in LS solely because a dubiously canon game shows one moving the other's arm in a takedown that has nothing to do with arm-twisting.

No, I'm arguing these character scale in LS because they had just been in a hand to hand battle to the death and one of them would canonically use a fighting style that revolves entirely around grabs and throws. The very idea of Snake not even scaling to Gray Fox can only come about if you are nitpicking and going out of your way to NOT have Snake scale, because for any sane human being, being told that two characters "fought an hand to hand battle to the death" would be enough to say that "mhh, maybe it's not that likely that one is a million times stronger than the other, especially when it's the loser between the two"; the fact that Gray Fox would canonically use CQC is simply what seals the deal, there's no way Snake could have fought him without being at least comparable in Lifting Strength

If Fox was strong enough to resist that blow, he would have grabbed the leg, instead of getting hit.

Absolute non-argument, you don't dictate what Gray Fox should have done, you saying that "he could have done this" is not an argument.

So Fox is barely able to resist a casual stomp from REX, and unable or at least unwilling to try and block a stronger one.

And where did you even gather this from? Man, you're just in your own mental universe where Gray Fox dodging an attack means that he couldn't have blocked it, what's up with people assuming that just because a character dodges an attack it means that he cannot tank it.

It's not a matter of the opposition doing it or not, the calculation is invalid no matter what. Heck, since you're the one who's pushing for 8-C, you should get someone to do the calc.

We're working on it, what I'm saying is that the opposition is yet to present a single feat, and we currently have 1 8-B to 8-C calc for Snake on his profile

 

[Chariot190]

It's 3 feats actually in that game. M=FA makes every singlefeat Class M. It happening all in one game is irrelevant, don't act like this changes anything at all. We won't toss something like Ocarina of Time out the window because it has the best lifting feats. Or tossing Galaxy out the window because suddenly MFTL+ feats. It being one game changes nothing, it's a recent entry, and it happens a lot.
He can fight Gray Fox and is physically comparable, who can also halt REX's stomp. Nanotech really isn't a huge thing till rising in regards to power, being able to physically overwhelm and beat the shit out of characters wearing exosuits and cybernetics should give you an idea that the gap isnt actually that big.
I seen you mention Gray Fox being an outlier but it isn't, Raiden can swordfight Solidus wearing a exosuit too later on and Snake fighting Gray Fox is like, a huge part of the game, it's why Gray Fox is there in the first place, to fight Snake in hand to hand for the last time.
Venom is also > Skulls physically, though featwise idk what we'd do with them for lifting other then the fact they're hilariously superhuman.
idk what Ocelot has to do with anything.

Class G is like, something we arent scaling anyone to anyway?

>Unless Psycho Mantis' TK scales to anyone

You're right, I'm unsure if it does. (though you'd think he'd actually use it on Solid if it was worthwhile, especially whe he can read minds). I think it does in comics but comics are kinda sus canon, not outright noncanon but not main canon.

Though someone mentioned KE feats somehow not being viable? Since when? KE feats are one of the most basic straight forward feats possible, not only are they completely 100% usable, but it's one of the few type of feats that this hobby is based upon, and one of the few feats? I mean, nobody seemingly did the one thing I asked to be looked into.

 

[Chariot190]

>Tanks the recoil of a railgun, but he's still clearly affected.

He's scripted to use it unlike everything else and the railgun is established and shown to pack huge recoil, to the point it has to be wielded by mech suits usually.
If we're going the story route>feats. A scripted cinematic usage and sequence kinda establishes it that Solid can use the thing.

 

[Chariot190]

>You can literally run over The Man on Fire and knock him into water to beat him, that also canonically pins him down for a while in the hospital mission. However, if you run him over in the fight, but don't knock him into water, he'll get up immediately, which implies what he struggled with was pushing the tank(? was it a tank? i don't remember, but it was a vehicle) away, not that he was knocked out by it.

Woah back up there, are you going to ignore the fact TMOF can toss military grade vehicles? Hell he sent a fire truck through the sky immediately after the scene you're talking about. The fact he can make a fire truck fly through the sky for who knows how far, I forget, but it must've been hundreds and hundreds of meters, in a scripted cinematic cutscene, should tell you that maybe the slow hulking giant who takes a bit to do anything really didn't take a few seconds because it was hard for him, when seconds later things get tossed through the sky.

>So Fox is barely able to resist a casual stomp from REX,

Wut. Fox does it without much if any effort? He holds him up long enough to have a conversation.

 

[Armorchompy]

If I explain what this character, who is a trained, skilled fighter, should do in a situation, and is perfectly able to do, and they do not do it, acting as if it isn't even an option, then yes, I do believe it is a fair argument that the character does not have that LS, nevermind that such a thing happens multiple times, in multiple installments. Fox doesn't just judo toss REX through the roof, Big Boss doesn't just shoulder tackle Peace Walker into the sea, Raiden isn't able to knock away that storm of RAY he fights, Solidus has to target specific weak points, I could go on and on and on but I respect your time and like to keep my statements devoid of sass, which makes one of us since you like resulting to petty insults so much.

PIS is a reason that can be used and it's perfectly fine to do so, but when the amounts of PIS are many times higher than the feats shown, then it no longer is. Of course stuff like equipment weight and recoil are awful arguments by themselves, I'm making them so they can be added up to the rest, and now the PIS to Class M LS ratio is something closer to 90/10

If Snake's LS is M, then it doesn't really matter what opposition Fox puts up, Snake can throw him on Jupiter for all he cares, and the same can happen is he's class 5 or 50 or whatever we're gonna make him. And if Fox had used CQC, Snake would use it too, and since we obviously don't see that in the gameplay, no he does not. I do however agree that the logical conclusion is that they scale to each other to a degree, however in this case it's less logical to do, because it implies Snake could just lift REX, which, if you take the time to move close to him in the boss fight and get promptly stomped, you can clearly tell that he does not. More PIS, eh? Add it to the list!

There are plenty of 9-A feats, and you have been presented, and even have presented them.

Mario actually has MFTL feats from multiple different games, in fact once I counted them for fun and going from Relativistic to MFTL+, he has 52 feats. So that is a pretty awful comparison, nevermind that plenty would argue Mario's wanked as he is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So what did I miss?

 

[Armorchompy]

literally nothing just more LS discussion

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

literally nothing just more LS discussion

Are we seriously still on the Class M Discussion?

 

[Chariot190]

>PIS is a reason that can be used and it's perfectly fine to do so, but when the amounts of PIS are many times higher than the feats shown, then it no longer is. Of course stuff like equipment weight and recoil are awful arguments by themselves, I'm making them so they can be added up to the rest, and now the PIS to Class M LS ratio is something closer to 90/10

That's literally false. Here's a question, have you actually tried looking for feats? Because "the amounts of PIS are many times higher than shown" comes off as ignorant without actually knowing the exact number.

>Mario actually has MFTL feats from multiple different games, in fact once I counted them for fun and going from Relativistic to MFTL+, he has 52 feats. So that is a pretty awful comparison, nevermind that plenty would argue Mario's wanked as he is.

How many come out to like 7 digit MFTL? (As in, how many are even 1% of the galaxy feats).

> Fox doesn't just judo toss REX through the roof, Big Boss doesn't just shoulder tackle Peace Walker into the sea, Raiden isn't able to knock away that storm of RAY he fights, Solidus has to target specific weak points,

No but he completely stops its stomp, basic M=FA would make that Class M, not super high into it, but still like 1-2k, all without effort. Big Boss didn't even try to be fair, he tried talking to NORAD first, why? Beats me, he did want the panels though so there's that. Raiden is probably actually weaker then the Snakes physically, but then again, he fights Solidus in a sword fight, who's wearing an exosuit made with RAY technology so not the best comparison. Weak points? Not notably so.

Now while you're all not even bothering to look for feats, TMOF can blow up a slightly bulkier M1128 Mobile Gun System with enough force to where there's no visible remains of it from what I can see after the blast. That's 8-C too, toss that into the pile.
Gray Fox also walks off being in Metal Gear D while it violently explodes, and then immediately goes to fight Solid in a hand to hand death match. Though, surface area make **** that one a bit.
The Shagohad's basic KE with its boosters is also 8-C, it has some nice feats as well that may end up decently high like ripping through meters of steel.

 

[Chariot190]

Somebody actually go and calc what V.fragging a M1128 and M1 Abrams comes out to first before we continue this. Both hold relevance here.

 

[Twellas]

If I explain what this character, who is a trained, skilled fighter, should do in a situation, and is perfectly able to do, and they do not do it, acting as if it isn't even an option, then yes, I do believe it is a fair argument that the character does not have that LS,

No it isn't, period, because you offer no argument other than "he should be able to block it, so he should block it".

nevermind that such a thing happens multiple times, in multiple installments. Fox doesn't just judo toss REX through the roof, Big Boss doesn't just shoulder tackle Peace Walker into the sea, Raiden isn't able to knock away that storm of RAY he fights, Solidus has to target specific weak points,

Situations in which "this ability would have come in handy" are also not an argument, especially in Peace Walker case, which is the very definition of PIS, had Big Boss thrown PW into the ocean, The Boss wouldn't have had the chance to sacrifice herself, nullifying most of Big Boss' character development; them not performing a feat in this case doesn't change at all the fact that there are 4 valid feats for that same tier; it's like people countering ability additions by saying "well, if he had this ability, then why didn't he use it in this scenario?".

I could go on and on and on but I respect your time and like to keep my statements devoid of sass, which makes one of us since you like resulting to petty insults so much.

Yeah, because after being presented with arguments such as "Raiden doesn't scale to his Outer Haven feat" or "Snake doesn't scale to Gray Fox" for 3 days straight, you either start cracking jokes or lose your mind

PIS is a reason that can be used and it's perfectly fine to do so, but when the amounts of PIS are many times higher than the feats shown, then it no longer is

Which is not the case here, since you've only presented 1 of such cases

Of course stuff like equipment weight and recoil are awful arguments by themselves, I'm making them so they can be added up to the rest, and now the PIS to Class M LS ratio is something closer to 90/10

No, they are non-arguments, they don't add up to anything at all, the only halfway decent point you made was the one about the Jeep, and even then, it's not like Snake was stuck there, he still freed himself, you can't just stack bullshit arguments (because I'm sorry, but bringing up gun recoil can't be anything other than a bullshit argument) and say "well, as you see, i have more arguments on my side, so I win", you gotta make valid, reasonable claims, and none beside the Jeep ones were

If Snake's LS is M, then it doesn't really matter what opposition Fox puts up, Snake can throw him on Jupiter for all he cares

no it actually matters, because if Fox puts resistance, Snake can't throw him

And if Fox had used CQC, Snake would use it too, and since we obviously don't see that in the gameplay, no he does not.

B R U H, CQC wasn't even a thing when MGS1 was released, OF COURSE IT'S NOT IN GAMEPLAY, it's absolutely ridiculous that I even have to say it ffs; Gray Fox CANONICALLY SPEAKING would know CQC by being trained extensively by Big Boss himself and would have no reason not to use it, being that it's the main fighting style of the Outer Heaven soldiers. Of course it's not shown in the game, because THERE WAS NO CQC WHEN THE GAME WAS RELEASED, but this does not change the canon that Gray Fox knew CQC, knew it well, and would have logically used it against Snake

it implies Snake could just lift REX, which, if you take the time to move close to him in the boss fight and get promptly stomped, you can clearly tell that he does not

I... have we seriously reached the point where because Snake can't stop the foot in-game he canonically can't? Well, guess Raiden can't flip EXCELSUS, after all, it's not like he has an option to even stop its blade during the bossfight, no? (And I know that "Raiden actually did it" yeah, and Snake actually scales to someone who actually did it, so what?)

There are plenty of 9-A feats, and you have been presented, and even have presented them.

No, not really, the only 9-A feats presented by the opposition are the KE from Zeke and PW just moving

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, I have, and you have too, and there are only three class M feats, with one that is a tier below and a mite questionable. But please, instead of telling me I've gotta prove shit over and over, since you're so sure about them being there, list them for me, the amount of crazy-high Metal Gear LS feats that are closer to Class M than to Class 10 or whatever.

Actually, a pretty high amount. Off the top of my head, there's two/three in Mario Party, several in Galaxy of course, and one in Mario & Luigi, and I'm sure I'm missing some, nevermind that there's twice as many FTL ones. Of course the difference between MFTL and FTL is astronomic, but they are still very good support material.

I'm fine with 8-C Metal Gear Solid all things considered (shame though, wish I could make Snake and Kiryu fight), I care a lot more about LS. Can't you calc that, though?

-

Jesus Christ mate this argument just boils down to the fact that 97% of the time the characters behave as if their LS was not enough to suplex a blue whale, including times where it would have been very useful that are by themselves higher than the amount of showings of such strength. It's pointless for us to argue details with walls of text I'm barely even gonna bother reading, that's the whole debate right there. I'm gonna keep arguing for it indefinitely, and so are you, and hopefully so are the people on my side, so I guess that's how it be now, let's just not waste each other's time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, it's usually considered arbitrary to calculate fragmentation values of tanks exploding. IRL, Tanks blow up easily from a couple of 9-B to 9-A rockets, and the seemingly High 8-C to 8-B looking explosions are really just the gasoline in the tanks igniting.

 

[Chariot190]

>just a heads up, it's usually considered arbitrary to calculate fragmentation values of tanks exploding

it's a little different when the tank is effectively gone, or we see it shatter into a bunch of tiny pieces. There's exploding, and then exploding.
If the tank itself is effectively gone, that's when calcing it comes into play.

 

[Armorchompy]

8-C gasoline, clearly

 

[Chariot190]

8-C gasoline, clearly

Yes, because I'm talking about the explosion, not the fact the tank shatters into tiny fragments.
(That was sarcasm, I could be wrong and misinterpreting you though, but I made it really clear I'm not talking about the explosion, rather the fact the tanks and vehicles shatter and effectively vanish as a tank due to how little debris are left).

 

[Twellas]

I'm fine with 8-C Metal Gear Solid all things considered (shame though, wish I could make Snake and Kiryu fight)

Look on the bright side, Snake can fight Batman

Jesus Christ mate this argument just boils down to the fact that 97% of the time the characters behave as if their LS was not enough to suplex a blue whale, including times where it would have been very useful that are by themselves higher than the amount of showings of such strength.

You're acting as if it's not common place in fiction for characters to behave as if they don't have the capabilities they have. Fiction is (mostly) not an exact science, no matter how hard we try, there will ALWAYS be something wrong, this doesn't mean we have to ignore the actual feats, otherwise we'd have nothing to work with.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, because I'm talking about the explosion, not the fact the tank shatters into tiny fragments.

The joke was not at your expense- not at anyone's really.

Look on the bright side, Snake can fight Batman

Jeez, Batman's 8-C? Thought he was 9-A

You're acting as if it's not common place in fiction for characters to behave as if they don't have the capabilities they have. Fiction is (mostly) not an exact science, no matter how hard we try, there will ALWAYS be something wrong, this doesn't mean we have to ignore the actual feats, otherwise we'd have nothing to work with.

I know it's common, but it's still a case by case scenario and I think this case is so extreme calling the LS outliery is the better call here.

 

[Chariot190]

>The joke was not at your expense- not at anyone's really.

Yeah I just realized that (though I thought gasoline explosions were getting a new formula actually? It isnt relevant to the feat at all, but im talking in general).

>and I think this case is so extreme calling the LS outliery is the better call here.

The alternative is just as bad, if not worst, most of the big "anti-feats" tend to be lower then even the most basic other lifting feats they have, if the other examples end up being not just lower than the big feats, but also the random bit ones, idk man kinda sus.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gas tanks do have 8-B levels of chemical energy that becomes thermal energy when burned or ignited, but it doesn't generate much force. Though, when the metal gets super heated, it can be much less hollow to the point where it's easier shatter with much less force than normal.