Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Chariot190]

There's no real assumptions though? We're told everything we need to know.

Mother Base to where Sahel landed is over 4000km. The Seychella Waters to 50 miles inland Africa. (Forced to stop because no fuel, emergency landing).

The kids and Eli were trying to escape any pursuit and didn't even stop at all to get away as far and fast as they can.

Sahel arrived in Africa the same time they did, obviously, given Eli is in the thing, Sahel, the mecha, not the chopper.

We know an approximate timeframe based on various info we're given.

AND, at the absolute minimum, the average helicopter's basic sustainable cruise speed still results in 8-C, just lower, so even if you don't want assumptions, the benchmark is still 8-C based on a benchmark lowend.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It means that you cover more distance with the fuel you have

Thats not...no...thats not how it works at all lol, going faster means you burn fuel faster

No, it's really not, more like an educated guess

An educated guess that they had a few hundred gallons of fuel on board which would more than fill the entire cabin of the visibly empty helicopter

 

[Twellas]

An educated guess that they had a few hundred gallons of fuel on board which would more than fill the entire cabin of the visibly empty helicopter

I say this because otherwise there is no way the helicopter covered the 4k KMs, since its fuel supply only lasts enough for 2200 KMs; having some spare fuel is not that big of a stretch, maybe stored somehwere within the body of the plane

 

[Chariot190]

Our only other option is to figure out the speed and fuselage of Pequod and use that instead. Which is, well, it ain't gonna lower the result any given Pequod can cover thousands of kilometers within a short timeframe (Eli stole the same model).

Unless we actually want to say it took them a week to cover that distance even though that's impossible to have occurred.

 

[Twellas]

There's also the fact that Mantis and the kids were actively escaping pursuit and only stopped because the fuel ended, which heavily implies that they were simply trying to get as far as possible as quickly as possible

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, they were.
Hell both Venom and Cipher comes in to kick their ass. All in time for Venom to rescue the pilot who was held at gunpoint, forced to fly without rest, and then tied and and bound to serve as a warning from dehydration (Venom doesn't actually go out to get them till after Eli arrives there, and sends him a tape demanding an exchange for the corpse of Venom for Sahel and the nuke, that's' at least 3 trips worth).
We have an approximate timeframe here, it couldn't have taken more then a day with the info we're given and the following events that take place.

 

[Twellas]

Also "that chopper is definitely not moving at 100 m/s" is not really an argument, on what basis is it "definitely not moving at 100m/s"? Because it DOESN'T LOOK LIKE it's going at 100 m/s? That's not really a reasonable argument against the logical conclusion that "they were escaping from a place that could potentially dispatch just the same helicopter going at top speed, the pilots were being held at gun point, it would logically follow that the chopper would be going as fast as possible"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Going fastr would have resulted in thm traveling a shorter distance

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also "that chopper is definitely not moving at 100 m/s" is not really an argument, on what basis is it "definitely not moving at 100m/s"? Because it DOESN'T LOOK LIKE it's going at 100 m/s? That's not really a reasonable argument against the logical conclusion that "they were escaping from a place that could potentially dispatch just the same helicopter going at top speed, the pilots were being held at gun point, it would logically follow that the chopper would be going as fast as possible"

Yes, absolutely, you can visibly see when somthing is not moving that fast on top of the logical conclusion that they would not have ever moved that fast due to it consuming more fuel

 

[Chariot190]

I'd assume the chopper not moving that fast yet has more to do with the fact they were just taking off and in both real life and in game, the choppers need to accelerate first. And then the game ends because Konami said **** a finished product. We know what happens next though fortunately.
And even then, a chopper's normal cruise speed still results in 8-C. (0.31 tons, so lower, but still well within 8-C, no matter how you slice it, Mantis flying Sahel to Africa ends up as 8-C even as a lowend, it's just how far into 8-C that changes, either one works fine).

 

[AKM sama]

> 500 comments

Can someone TLDR? What are the agreed upon conclusions? And what points are still being debated?

 

[Chariot190]

Nothing yet. The first 300+ replies arent relevant to the current topic.

Something something outliers and currently feat talk, Looking for over feats should be the current priority.

No conclusions yet for current debate.

First debate was mostly universal, no death pill though, no deconstruction, Venom scaling to Big Boss controversy (not an issue anymore due to AP changes), something about Volgin semantics that was kinda pointless in hindsight. IR and other shit was being discussed still but that's on hold.

 

[Twellas]

Can someone TLDR? What are the agreed upon conclusions? And what points are still being debated?

What's being discussed now has nothing to do with the thread; the 8-B calc is not valid and we are presenting feats and various justifications

 

[Chariot190]

Well, the 8-B calc is valid, it just doesnt scale to durability (though I thought it was accounted for, as Snake was bruised and wet when he was tortured, reducing his electrical resistance but either way, I dont doubt there's some sort of issue given how often electrical feats go through revisions).
Should also mention the Snakes have 8-C electrical weaponry too, but the whole weird electrical thing makes that a issue to use for anything other than AP for those weapons.

There's the P-Bomb calc I guess. It's 8-C to 8-B, suffers from the times though, how much, hard to tell.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Electricity feats as a whole no longer scale to physical durability

 

[Chariot190]

Electricity feats as a whole no longer scale to physical durability

Yes, that's what I said.

 

[SpookyShadow]

No need to state that for 100 times Weekly

 

[Chariot190]

Hmm, I wonder if there's something to scale the SKULLS off of. I know armor units are immune to even tank shells (Thanks Parasite Suit) and Venom can physically harm them, but being basically immune to something isn't a good indication of one's upper limit.

The Venom tank calc is good, the fact its actually way lower than what it is would account for inverse square law. (Calc uses wrong tank mass, the actual tank model is like 2-3x what's in the calc).

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just want to point out for the Cocoon thing, Kaz thought it was impossible to move Cocoon and that Big Boss didn't bother moving it into water despite that being enough to shut it down.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

People are taking this lack of a 500 word reply limit very liberally.

 

[Chariot190]

Bro. You're doing it again. You're mixing shit up.

Also stopping Peace Walker and ZEKE trigger voicelines of the characters being in shock Big Boss could do it. It's meant to be a shocking display of strength that astounds those involved, Kaz thinking Big Boss couldn't do it isn't much different than Paz going holy shit what the **** how did he do that.

 

[Twellas]

The Peace Walker thing (It's peace walker, not cocoon) is simply PIS, no way to get around it, had Big Boss tossed PW into the ocean, The Boss wouldn't have had the chance to sacrifice herself, which is a huge, HUGE part of Big Boss' character development, it's basically what triggers his fall into villainy.

It's also worth noting that one of BB's LS feats comes right after PW, against ZEKE, so it's not even like BB's strength is something that's forgotten about after the cocoon fight, it's even reinforced after PW, which further solidifies PW's thing being PIS

 

[Chariot190]

Paz even has a voiceclip for it, she exclaims her astonishment of Big Boss performing the feat, she's shocked at his strength, (even Peace Walker responds to Big Boss catching her punch and tossing it away).
----
Though, I gotta go, I may toss a calc in the calc request thread though later.
While you're all it, redo the Venom tank calc with a proper value first, do that while I'm away as it may end up being important.

 

[SpookyShadow]

We will have to come back to the original post once the "downgrades" are done. (Though they should have a separate thread)

 

[Twellas]

This calc. The problem is that the calc compares the tank to a Pandur II, when in fact, it's almost a 1:1 replica of a M1 Abrams, whose mass is around 60, 63 and even 73 tons, more than triple that of the Pandur II

 

[WeeklyBattles]

We will have to come back to the original post once the "downgrades" are done. (Though they should have a separate thread)

They will be, thats mainly what the other staff who agreed to the downgrades are waiting for

 

[Twellas]

Why waste time and make a separate thread when we already started discussing here? I'll just remake the OP once the downgrade is done

 

[SpookyShadow]

Well, it's very large and will be hard to read for everyone but do as you want

Funny how most CRT's now turn into downgrades

 

[Chariot190]

Well, it's very large and will be hard to read for everyone but do as you want

Funny how most CRT's now turn into downgrades

i̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶n̶a̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶o̶d̶s̶t̶a̶i̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶d̶

Anyway time to crash I guess, see you all in a few hr.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Beneath the bloodstained THREEAAAAAAAADDddd

I'll try to help any time, unless it's calc stuff. I'm supporting MGS being at least 8-C, it's pretty consistent with Big Boss' Metal Gear/Peace Walker fights and Snake's wall punch.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I have had the LS stuff explained to me so I'm going to speak on that alone. I'm not familiar with the AP stuff so I'll keep my nose out of that.

Plain and simple, Class M is outlier. Boss did not have nanotech when he performed the feat, he did not have strength enhancements when he fought Ocelot, and all this happens in a single game. Unless Psycho Mantis' TK scales to anyone, that is not backup proof. Cybernetically enhanced characters and those with strength enhancements perform Class G feats so using them to scale is a no.

I just don't see how non-enhanced humans can scale to Class M without any backing feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright so it turns out i got unsubscribed from this thread and have missed the last two something pages.

Oops!

What did I miss?

 

[Twellas]

I just don't see how non-enhanced humans can scale to Class M without any backing feats.

2 backing feats from Peace Walker and 1 from MGS1 at absolute least

Cybernetically enhanced characters and those with strength enhancements perform Class G feats so using them to scale is a no.

literally nobody is scaling Vamp and Raiden to Snake, if anything I explicitly pointed at Snake grappling Vamp as a true outlier

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright so!

I kinda disagree with Class M lifting strength, and it seems like that was literally all that was discussed in the last three pages, so that's nice.

 

[Twellas]

Most of the Mecha-LS feats are from PW, mmhhh could it be that that's because Peace Walker alone has more Metal Gears in it than all the other 5 games combined? I wonder...

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, first off tone it down with the sarcasm, even if you believe the person you're discussing against is a dumbass, no reason to treat them as such since odds are they see you the same way.

Then uh, I obviously disagree with ignoring PW as a game altogether, I don't think that the game they're from changes the feats themselves (though PW is definitely a lot sillier than any other MG game)

 

[Twellas]

Alright, first off tone it down with the sarcasm, even if you believe the person you're discussing against is a dumbass, no reason to treat them as such since odds are they see you the same way.

Man, I've had to deal with people saying that Raiden doesn't scale to his own Outer Haven feat, my patience is running dangerously low for evidently self-defeating arguments. Also, I'm joking, I don't see how anyone could see that as offensive

 

[Armorchompy]

Of course it's a joke, anyone can tell, still can be seen as kinda mean

 

[Sir_Ovens]

What are the 3 backing feats if you don't mind.

 

[Twellas]

Snake halts ZEKE's foot and overpowers it, ZEKE would be Class M by its mobility alone

Snake halts Cocoon

Gray Fox casually halts REX' foot, and we went back and forth about this, because Snake very clearly scales to Gray Fox strength wise, outright overpowering him in h2h combat. The only possible argument against this is that "Gray Fox had to save Snake, which means that Snake doesn't scale", but it's obviously made completely moot by the fact that Gray Fox stops the foot while it's still nowhere near Snake, so saying that Snake "had to be saved" is a complete assumption, and Snake jumping back is just common sense, since his only means of harming REX is the ranged, slow moving Stinger missile, and if he stayed close REX could have cut him in half with its laser.

And then there's Old Snake grappling Class G Vamp which is, as I've said, an outlier, but shows that Class M isn't even their cap when it comes to their LS feats