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MCU 8-C AP / Lifting Strength revision
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Kinda hard to calculate but log splitters tend to be in the Class 10 range.
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Bump
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- #284
I'll try my best Friday to get at least the core stuff settled that way the thread just doesn't fade into non-existence.
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Once that's all done at the very least there will be people willing to apply things if you need to get to other business so I doubt you have to worry about that
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Will need the PDF sources for that and any reddit calc links if they exist.
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I think I heard that from the Comic Books vs The World video ages ago.
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- #288
Okay so to summarize
- We can't scale Cap level people to Iron Man's Pre and Post-CW armors
- The Class 100 WS calc doesn't work because he never damaged Iron Man's gauntlets
- Deathlok's feat is valid but it comes from a source that's incredibly questionable at this point in terms of mainline usability
- The current 8-C scaling is based off of a highballed Tank fragmentation calc
- Everyone Captain America becomes "At least Class 5 or Class 10: Falcon can lift armored trucks with his thrusters (WS and other SS have overpowered them before), Red Guardian can throw metal waste disposals pretty easily, Captain America holding up the car"
- The various Spider-Men (and people on their level) become "Class 50 (Jet bridge calc [once accepted], Green Goblin casually doing a Class 10 feat and Doc Ock tossing vault doors and Spider-Man resisting the arms)"
- Iron Man and Warmachine stay are either "At least Class 50 or Class 100: Warmachine has lifted two tanks and Iron Man is physically superior to Cap/Spider-Man"
- The 8-C scaling has to be changed to downscaling from Spider-Man rather than directly scaling to Black Panther
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This seems straightforward. I agree
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Sounds good to me.
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These changes look fine.
Slightly off-topic (?): Can we please get rid of Deathlok's 8-C scaling entirely? He's scaled to an explosion that nearly killed him and resulted in him losing a limb, also we can't even assume he was in the epicenter.
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I guess Deathlok would be downgraded to "At least 9-A" in that case, as Agents of SHIELD peak humans are considered 9-A by the wiki.
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The Deathlok calc is wrong, I was going to revise that some time but yeah.
Isn't the 8-C Quicksilver recalc by KLOL still valid? That can still be used.
Isn't the 8-C Quicksilver recalc by KLOL still valid? That can still be used.
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Also not a big fan of that argument, but since most people seem to agree, a note should be put on Spider-Man's page saying something along the liens of he is still discovering his strength prior to NWH and shouldn't scale to people (unless for AP where they harm his durability).
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Cap being able to barely hold the car was later deemed to just be ****** up and unusable, because firstly, Cap wasn't holding it at its structure point but at its bumper, AKA he would not be able to properly apply his force onto the car without ripping the bumper off, second, Cap wasn't exactly in the best of positions when he was holding the car, he was hanging off of a concrete slab for dear life.
Also the helicopter feat just violates physics and Newton's Laws so badly that it's borderline uncalculable.
Ya forgot Spidey having a peak Class K feat for holding the Santa Maria Formosa. And this.
Looks fine.
No. Cap could easily make Spidey groan in pain with his punches and kicks. Also the Quicksilver punch calc exists.
Yeah that's still valid. That's what the 8-C cast scale to now. BP doesn't scale to the fragmentation of a tank anymore.
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- #296
Spider-Man from CW, his 8-C scaling comes multiple years later in NWH. Which is why I mentioned the downscaling, since he's dealing with a younger Spider-Man.
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Was Spider-Man ever said to have grown stronger? I thought it was more so him not knowing his strength.
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I still don't get why Cap would be downscaling from Spidey given that even the feat years later from NWH is 1.6707x lower than Cap's Quicksilver punch feat. So wouldn't Spidey downscale from Cap instead?
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I don't think he was ever stated to have grown stronger.
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Cap never touches QS and was laid out from that punch. Cap himself doesn't full scale to the punch considering every fight he has with an equal is a dragged out brawl meaning their AP is notably lower than their durability.
It's why I went with downscaling from Spider-Man, since I don't know how we 3ven handle their durability scaling.
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Bucky? He was holding back. His metal arm is basically rendered useless by anybody who knows what they're doing, notably Isaiah Bradley and Spider-Man.
Himself? Holding back again.
Spidey? Same deal.
Also Red Skull exists, he could visibly draw blood from Cap and leave him winded and falling on his knees with a gut punch, but Quicksilver couldn't, only resorting to temporarily knocking him out and not long after (15 seconds actually) Cap is back on his feet as if nothing happened to him.
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- #302
Not at first and even in the third fight he notably hurt him to save everyone else.
He quite literally wasn't. He was directly overpowered by his younger self (who thought he was just Loki) and had to use Bucky's name to get a win.
The only injury he left on Spider-Man was with his shield which was mentioned at the end of CW.
I'll give you that one. But even there Cap would be more durable than he was strong.
Popted2
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actually here he was holding back
again Cap was holding back here too, with Iron Man even confirming it,
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- #304
What? That makes negative amounts of sense. Young Cap was winning the entire fight and old Cap was out of breath afterwards. He's not immune to aging or anything, he just outright lost.
Cap said that if Captain America wanted to lay Spider-Man out he would've. But that doesn't negate the only injury peter got was from the shield smashing into his face.
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And yet Isaiah had little issue taking out Bucky's metal arm in Goyang and leaving him worse for the wear. Heck, even the Russian Super Soldiers using the raw Serum overpowered Bucky on their lonesome.
Again, his future self was trying to reason with his younger self and eventually in the end it turned into a wrestling match, where I'd still say old Cap is holding back because he only wants the stones and doesn't want to hurt anyone, he states this out loud right before the fight triggers where he states he's not Loki, even if it did still bite him in the ass.
Yeah, but that didn't exactly wind out Spidey as hard as the roundhouse kick by Cap did.
Not necessarily? He was matching Red Skull's blows with his own and even the shield throw didn't do much to stop Schmidt until he decided to grab the Tesseract and unknowingly teleport himself to Vormir.
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Yeah you're generally right here. Injuring them would be enough to scale to QS's feat.
He was being choked out and was unable to escape. There's zero indiciation that he wasn't seriously trying to fight or get away from his past self, especially because he's on an incredibly tight time limit and Young Cap had called the rest of the Avengers right before the fight started.
What you're suggesting is that Old Cap
- Held back on someone who he knows is physically comparable to himself
- Held back on someone who called for backup with multiple people who would stomp Cap into the ground
- Held back so much he was put in a choke hold and would've been captured if not for prior knowledge
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Nobody said he was immune to aging or anything, but nowhere is it indicated that this was the reason for him losing.
That also doesn't negate the fact that Cap's kick winded out Spidey harder than the shield bash to the face.
And if we really wanna use the Shield throw thing, a lot of peeps have survived that. Bucky for starters stopped it with his metal arm, then Bucky hurled it back at him which he then stopped.
Basically most Super Soldier level characters are relative to each other in terms of strength. Isaiah scales above Bucky, Bucky and Cap are relative to each other as they can harm each other with their blows, Spidey blocked WS's arm and even straight up shocked him (One could argue that Cap wouldn't try, and then there's obviously Red Skull, who's been able to consistently knock the wind out of Cap with body shots and face jabs in their final fight with each other.
For starters that's an LS feat, not sure if that'd scale to AP to begin with.
Him being on a tight time limit is pretty much why he said "I'm not Loki, and I don't wanna hurt you".
Like you said, he was on a tight schedule, he'd only make things worse for himself if he actually went into a grudge match and just kept landing hits at each other. This is quite evident when even old Cap gets annoyed at the "I can do this all day" quip saying "I know, I know".
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He still lost in the end, which was my point.
Except Young Cap wasn't listening and if he didn't get him out of the way he wouldn't be able to escape.
But this isn't going anywhere. 8-C for scaling to Spider-Man and QS is fine like I said before.
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If old Cap decided to let loose, they really would be fighting all day and attracting unnecessary attention from the other Avengers. Not only that, he was more fixated on keeping the Staff for himself instead of really trying to go toe-to-toe with his physical self.
I'd say he stopped listening right after he Sparta-kicked Old Cap and proceeded to say "I can do this all day", which pretty much leads to old Cap saying "Yeah, I know, I know". It kinda mirrors the "tight schedule" scene that Red Skull did with Cap before unsuccessfully trying to vape him with his energy pistol.
EDIT: Peggy scene happens after, which effectively means there's no way Cap stands down after that, sorry for that editing fluke.
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Yeah the Deathlok calc is bullshit. First off, it's a gas combustion feat AKA deflagration, which means you can't treat it like a normal explosion, second, Deathlok was nowhere near the epicenter, and third, he still lost limbs to it and was left near death. That's not tanking nor scaling.
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None that I can think of.
However, several new LS calcs need to be made for MCU, Spidey the Raimi peeps (Ock specifically) and TASM Lizard since they now scale to NWH characters and the three Spider-Men are all relative to each other (AND BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, NO, THESE CHARACTERS ARE THE EXACT SAME PEEPS WE SAW IN THE RAIMI TRILOGY AND THE TASM SERIES, THEY ARE NOT VARIANTS OF THE MOVIE PEEPS, BOTH MARVEL AND THE SCRIPT ACKNOWLEDGE THEM TO BE THE ONE AND THE SAME MOVIE CHARACTERS WE ALL SAW YEARS AGO, There is only one Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man who is officially designated as Raimi-Verse Spidey in the script whom we all know as Tobey, while Andrew Garfield is designated as both "The Amazing Spider-Man" and "Webb-verse Spider-Man").
We already went well in-depth with this, but it doesn't matter. Cap can genuinely engage in slugfests with those that can harm him and even draw blood from him (Red Skull, Black Panther, Bucky), and can even cause peeps like Spider-Man to groan in pain. That and he should at the very least be equal, if not superior to, peeps enhanced with an inferior version of the Super Soldier Serum (Isaiah, Bucky himself, Red Skull again, those weird Soviet Soldiers who fodderized Bucky even on their lonesome, etc.). There's also numerous people who can withstand shield throws from Cap himself (Bucky with his metal arm and Red Skull).
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Everyone was holding back in Civil War so you can excuse matches of strength if it's inconsistent, but you can't hold back your durability.
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The fact that we had to clarify this detail so many times is unfortunate
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Yeah, pretty much.
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You think? We even had a CRT for this when we applied the No Way Home revisions.
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- #318
KLOL still has to put the Jet Bridge calc into a blog afaik and I think he wants to calc the lizard feat.
Doc Ock is pretty easy since its just finding the weight of a vault door that they probably based on older vault models that weigh somewhere around 20 tons.
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He ripped the hinges holding them too, though I reckon that will be a bitch to calculate and prolly not even worth the effort.
There's also the train thing and clock arm thing that Chariot said was gonna do.
Gimme a bit while I add the jet bridge thing.
Also what mass should I use for the crane crawler thing? I've got decent Class 100 to Class K values for various models.
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It either gets a bloated number that we can't use or it just reconfirms its a Class 50 feat.
Either way just sticking with "Can throw a 20+ ton Vault Door" is fine for our standards.
Train has already been calced by like, university professors and the like. I don't think we can realistically get a better number for it.
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