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MCU 8-C AP / Lifting Strength revision
Coolboy6
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Could also be that the WS was holding back aganst BP and Spidey.
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Bucky's metal arm isn't exactly the most consistent thing to go by, but honestly it's made pretty clear that Captain America and Spider-Man were about equal, it'll be weirder not to scale them when Cap has feats of his own too.
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Yeah, pretty much. Almost anybody who's anybody can easily overpower it, or even tear the damn thing off, pre-Vibranium arm of course.
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Cap (arguably in a poorer position) matches Spider-Man in a tug of war with webbing with both clearly straining, then Cap manages to turn it around and pull Spider-Man towards him
Another tug of war where Cap pulls Spidey towards him (though tbf Spidey is lighter). Cap bashes Spider-Man with the blunt edge of the shield so piercing damage doesn't factor that much either
Spidey swings towards Cap with a lot of momentum and Cap knocks him back causing him to pretty clearly groan in pain
Skill can only do so much, I think it's pretty clear strength wise they are equal both in AP and LS. Iron Man further confirms this in Homecoming. I'd rather trust this fight over one metal arm catch, especially when Bucky's metal arm is super inconsistent.
Contrast this with Cap vs Loki, an actual mismatch of strength
Cap's shield throw with the sharp edge does nothing at all to Loki, and Loki just staggers without groaning with Cap's subsequent punch to the face
Cap is only able to block Loki's strikes with the blunt edge of the Scepter with his shield and gets sent flying when hit
A tight punch to the gut by Cap does nothing again and Loki sends him flying once more (try lightly punching yourself like that, it really hurts and Loki didn't flinch at all)
A full spin kick finally makes Loki grunt a bit but he merely staggers only
For all its inconsistencies, the MCU isn't that bad with its power scaling unlike the comics.
Another tug of war where Cap pulls Spidey towards him (though tbf Spidey is lighter). Cap bashes Spider-Man with the blunt edge of the shield so piercing damage doesn't factor that much either
Spidey swings towards Cap with a lot of momentum and Cap knocks him back causing him to pretty clearly groan in pain
Skill can only do so much, I think it's pretty clear strength wise they are equal both in AP and LS. Iron Man further confirms this in Homecoming. I'd rather trust this fight over one metal arm catch, especially when Bucky's metal arm is super inconsistent.
Contrast this with Cap vs Loki, an actual mismatch of strength
Cap's shield throw with the sharp edge does nothing at all to Loki, and Loki just staggers without groaning with Cap's subsequent punch to the face
Cap is only able to block Loki's strikes with the blunt edge of the Scepter with his shield and gets sent flying when hit
A tight punch to the gut by Cap does nothing again and Loki sends him flying once more (try lightly punching yourself like that, it really hurts and Loki didn't flinch at all)
A full spin kick finally makes Loki grunt a bit but he merely staggers only
For all its inconsistencies, the MCU isn't that bad with its power scaling unlike the comics.
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Wow, didn't know Cap's hits against Loki were of little to no consequence. Heck, with that gut punch you could almost argue that Loki straight up had invulnerability.
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Through outliers and PIS in the comics, you can scale people like Luke Cage to Tier 1, so yeah, the MCU isn't doing too bad
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Exactly why I was reluctant to scale Iron Man to him, but I guess now it's more consistent with his suit in Civil War getting a weaker key.
Speaking of Loki, he needs to be downgraded to 8-B.
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Guess all of this could've been avoided if we only decided to delve a bit deeper into the guidebooks.
Oh yeah, I wonder why that didn't get applied yet.
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- #212
We just clarify that he doesn't scale to other Iron Men.
I'm still iffy on using a KE feat as a main justification but it's whatever I guess.
Lifting strength still need reworks though. Not everyone who vaguel interacts with Cap is Class 50 or Class 100.
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Honestly I'm not sure the people stronger than Cap or Spidey in AP should necessarily upscale in LS either. It's two separate stats after all
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I can do so later
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Ye.
Even if we were to disregard the KE feat (Which I honestly don't see any reason to do so) he'd still scale to Spidey in full for the reasons Spino just gave, given that he actually made Spidey groan in pain, whereas against Loki, nothing, even the kick and the shield throw at the edge wasn't enough. Either way, Cap isn't downscaling from Spidey in any manner whatsoever.
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bump, can we at least add the new calculation to Cap's page first since this is going really slowly
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- #218
I'll start working on a LS list, but here's my thoughts
- Captain America-Tier people: Scaling to Walker overpowering Falcon who has that armored car feat (maybe Class 10?)
- Spider-Man: Class 25 to 50 and Class [whatever] with Webbings or going all out
- Iron Man-Tier people: Class 50/100 for the tank stuff
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AFAIK, they don't, specifically Quill, Drax and Groot IIRC. They mostly rely on their own weaponry and through Spider-Man/Cap scaling.
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Yeah, and we should preferably update Quicksilver's page too, since his speed got accepted.
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Spider-Man already was Class 50 in the airport fight and Cap matched him there tho
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- #222
Honestly I just chalk that up to PiS. Nothing Cap has come close to that and there's plenty examples of people just randomly matching others in crossover movies when they shouldn't.
If Cap was casually Class 50 then he wouldn't struggle with lifting cars or only move a truck a couple feet when kicking it.
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Ehhhh then I argue Spider-Man doesn't have that much stronger of a standing either since he struggles with weaker feats in Homecoming too. I'm fine with it personally since he kinda only grabbed the bumper and didn't have a good hold in Age of Ultron but either way I feel like it would be wrong for them not to be in the same ballpark when it's outright stated in the next movie.
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- #224
But still, Spider-Man does have multiple showings that are greater than Class 5 or 10 in his movies. Cap has been in seven and he just doesn't have anything.
Its more consistent to just Cap to be his own thing, rather than scale him to a newb 15 year old that legitimately thought he would die from falling like 600 feet in the air.
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Well he should downscale from Class 100 Bucky bionic arm, lifted that big metal beam albeit barely in TWS while severely injured which is unquantifiable but eyeballed by most to be Class 50, the wood ripping (funnily enough a better feat than car lifting) was quite casual, Captain Carter pushed back a room-sized monster on her own and I'm struggling to find a good clip but he lifted a big piece of rubble off himself in TWS, etc.
The anti-feats he struggle with are mostly the AoU car which he didn't have a good hold on and the cool helicopter curl which is honestly such a **** Isaac Newton moment I tend to disregard it.
If we were to talk about the lack of feats then for Class 50 feats Spider-Man only has the jet bridge as well and that's it.
We do tend to scale characters to the higher end of feats unless contradicted by struggling to perform low-end feats and while PIS exists consistency between characters matters too. It would be a bigger gripe not to scale Captain America to Spider-Man imo when it's literally spit out there by the writers in the dialogue and aren't far apart in AP either. Even if the latter did grow stronger over time it would be later on.
The anti-feats he struggle with are mostly the AoU car which he didn't have a good hold on and the cool helicopter curl which is honestly such a **** Isaac Newton moment I tend to disregard it.
If we were to talk about the lack of feats then for Class 50 feats Spider-Man only has the jet bridge as well and that's it.
We do tend to scale characters to the higher end of feats unless contradicted by struggling to perform low-end feats and while PIS exists consistency between characters matters too. It would be a bigger gripe not to scale Captain America to Spider-Man imo when it's literally spit out there by the writers in the dialogue and aren't far apart in AP either. Even if the latter did grow stronger over time it would be later on.
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- #226
The bionic arm's feat has issues
- Its weird scaling wise, as you yourself point out
- You're using material made from his early combat inclined armors and then scaling it to his explicitly noncombat suit that was designed align with the Accords
- I watched the feat and the frame where the glass cracks the armor itself does not. Bucky did not deform the metal part of the suit, but applied enough pressure that the repulsor glass was cracked. The calc assumed he applied pressure that deformed the suit like Thor, when it didn't happen
Sure, but that's still not more than Class 10, let alone Class 50
He didn't lift it though, just moved it enough for WS to crawl out of. That doesn't require nearly the same amount of force as lifting the entire object.
He has other Class 50 feats along with his Class K/100 showings from other movies.
AP and lifting strength have never scaled 1:1. Wonder Woman scales to Superman's AP but not his lifting strength, because he consistently outmuscles her.
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He didn't overhead lift the beam yes but he still had to overcome its weight off the ground for a bit as he was pulling up the middle and he was severely injured at that point. The weaker feats I included are more so to support that the difference isn't that big. Superman does consistently outmatch Wonder Woman but that is not the case here as they do match in LS and the scaling between characters matters when the character's own feats aren't egregiously bad.
For Spider-Man I thought it was agreed his webbing feats don't necessarily scale otherwise he'll be Class K/M. Although I do admittedly find that a bit weird.
For Spider-Man I thought it was agreed his webbing feats don't necessarily scale otherwise he'll be Class K/M. Although I do admittedly find that a bit weird.
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- #228
But he doesn't need to be Class 50 to do so, just lift enough of that single section for WS to crawl out of. Which someone that's Class 5 to 10 can do. Its why people that can't lift a car or truck can still tilt it if they push against it hard enough.
Sure, but its also a really bad Spider-Man. He's barely a hero and literally every movie until FFH and NWH calls him a greenhorn who doesn't know what he's doing. Scaling Cap overpowering him, one of which was because Spider-Man stumbled, just doesn't seem right. For the same reason why don't scale Spider-Man to Cul or Captain America to Thanos.
How I took it was his webbing supporting stuff. There it was just him tugging on it.
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It's really difficult to lift a car clean off the ground even for a few inches though. In the metal feat Cap was lifting it up at the middle not spinning it on a pivot or something.
Experience is a thing with regards to skill but does it really matter in cases like this though?
Spider-Man and Cull's fight is like a standout case of a massive outlier though, they weren't just matching in LS but straight-up trading blows and it completely ***** up the scaling chain to scale them. Captain America and Thanos isn't the best example as Thanos's attack looked more like a casual grab towards him rather than a hit intended for harm and he was struggling to take like Thanos's fingers with his entire body's might and then subsequently got one-shot.
Experience is a thing with regards to skill but does it really matter in cases like this though?
Spider-Man and Cull's fight is like a standout case of a massive outlier though, they weren't just matching in LS but straight-up trading blows and it completely ***** up the scaling chain to scale them. Captain America and Thanos isn't the best example as Thanos's attack looked more like a casual grab towards him rather than a hit intended for harm and he was struggling to take like Thanos's fingers with his entire body's might and then subsequently got one-shot.
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For the crane pull thing it's not as if his webbing is holding on to it, he's only using the webbing as a rope tether to pull it down, kinna similar to if you were to pull down a crane or a ship using a strong ass rope already attached to it. So this is completely Spidey's own strength, something that people don't often notice.
I wonder tho, how much that crane thing will yield.
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I believe it was a crawler crane, which look pretty heavy if nothing else.
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in that case i propose the LS rating to be "very strong, possibly really strong"
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Apparently according to this it can easily range from 80 US ton to 110 US ton, which is approximately 72.6 to 99.8 metric tons. Wikipedia states crawler cranes can weigh from anywhere between 40 to 4000 long tons (40.642 to 4064.2 metric tons). I believe the 72.6 to 99.8 metric tons version is more accurate, given the crane Spidey pulls looks similar to the 80-110 US ton versions.
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BTW, gfycat links are forbidden now, so best to put that gif up in imgur.
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Damn that's Class K then?
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There's this calc that was done by @Akidwholiketopowerscale it could be used to support 8-A once again
vsbattles.fandom.com
Iron Man 2: Big Shockwave
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Very close.
But that sort of contradicts him struggling hard with the Santa Maria Formosa. Since the crane was done
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Inverse-square law would butcher the result. Vanko was at the epicenter and he effectively got whacked.There's this calc that was done by @Akidwholiketopowerscale it could be used to support 8-A once again
Iron Man 2: Big Shockwave
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I'll work on the inverse-square law stuff now
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