Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yet only this one move. If Tabuu was just generally above everyone, he wouldn't need to use his Off Waves to one-shot, and his wings being broken shouldn't have turned the tides so hard against him.

 

[Eficiente]

What I'm getting from this is that the One Hit Kill page is never going to be deleted, which is nice to know.

I'm fine with this matter then.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The One Hit Kill page is weird. I don't know why it's there.

 

[The_Smashor]

Especially since this is also a page that exists. Anyway, since Tabuu is considered above MH who is generally considered the god of the Smashverse and Smite is basically a justified version of One Hit Kill maybe he'd have that.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@The Smashor Yea, Smite is basically an OHK attack but using divine force to do this.

 

[Eficiente]

We seem to agree on conclusions that are yet to be added, so let's please continue what we have to.

 

[The_Smashor]

I think everyone agrees that Master Hand is solidly Low 2-C so far and nobody agrees with your preposed nerfs.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

These two last comments should be proof enough that nothing has been agreed on yet.

 

[Eficiente]

@Smashor Read the thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Speed upgrades for the cast were agreed upon actually. Scaling from Kirby's reacting to the blast and warp Star outrunning Galeem's attack, and everyone else at least reacting to the tentacles, but were unable to avoid the AoE due to lacking flight on Warp Star's level. So everyone should have Massively FTL+ combat speed, but I think that was the only thing agreed on this thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I re-state my feelings:

-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A

 

[Eficiente]

-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

I was mainly referring to continue this discussion, not sure if I expressed myself wrong or something.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The thing is, we must still assign a tier to MH and CH even if the above is accepted, so we must discuss the other feats. And this applies to all Tier 2 Smash characters, since everyone is currently scaled to MH.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Galeem and Dharkon would be 3-A at full power, which requires about 700 Master Hands absorbed to pull off.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I re-state my feelings:
-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A

I agree with Saikou.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Assalt I'd agree, if it wasn't for the fact that Dharkon just...kinda did it on his own, without needing to absorb anything beforehand.

 

[Read_this_post]

Hold on, so is master hand remaining at low 2-C for scaling to dalgia? If so wouldnt the smash fighters be low 2-C when boosted by the spirits?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Spirit of Dialga =/= as strong as Dialga.

 

[Read_this_post]

Im talking about your reference earlier about the fact that they needed to be boosted by the spirits to fight galeem.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Eh. I mean maybe. If we still consider the fighters beating MH & Co as PIS, It'd be hard to argue that them beating MH and Galeem harder than usual via spirits would be more valid. But they do seem to fare better with spirits than without.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Hey, can someone answer a question I have?

If Galeem destroyed the universe, then where is Kirby when he pops back into reality?

 

[Wokistan]

The World of Light made by galeem, iirc.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He broke it then remade it into his own image or smth.

 

[Eficiente]

I have a quick doubt, shouldn't the unknown time it takes to Galeem crush the universe be faster than the time it took his rays of light to cover the galaxy?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Considering that the beams themselves destroy things automatically when touching them and how the beams physically covered the entire universe, it would be 3-A regardless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The fighters and spirits working together are a similar case to the Elder Gods from Mortal Kombat; only universal when altogether, but scale from their own calcs one their own. But I don't think they need an altogether key, but could be mentioned on a note or something. Which there's a High 5-A calc scaling from Marx iirc.

 

[Eficiente]

My High 5-A calc is getting rejected as the attack isn't name black hole and doesn't do stuff with light.

@Saikou I know but speed-wise, he should get higher numbers right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We don't know the exact timeframe for when Galeem takes over the entire universe, so we can't calc it, unfortunately.

 

[Abstractions]

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

I don't think it's proper to scale MH to feats that Pokemon perform in their respective verse. Trophies show information on the character and what they did in their own universe, that doesn't mean it correlates into a spin-off verse.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If a crossover version of a character shows/was stated to do feats that they have done in their original series, they just scale to said feat.

Especially since Trophies in Smash are directly made from the Smash versions of the characters and don't refer to the original version as being different (except for the Melee trophies, but that's mainly a gameplay mechanic perspective).

 

[Wokistan]

If MH was to scale directly to Pokemon, it'd be 2-B because that's what Dialga is at.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'd like to talk about Efi's Marx calc getting denied. By whom?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean I did personally. Marx's "black hole" isn't any different from any big sucking hole thingy that we see everywhere. It's not even called a black hole, nevermind showing any properties of being one outside of sucking things in.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I am still playing through World of Light, but I have a question. Are we gonna give all the fighters access to spirits? If not, Galeem should definitely get them at least, and he should also get the abilities of all the fighters for obvious reasons

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Iapitus

Fighters should definitively get access to spirits, yeah. Galeem should only get the ability of other fighters in the same manner as Mr. Game & Watch currently does; only as "potentially", since Galeem can't pull off these abilities by himself.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

True. He should also get the status effect stuff from the hazards he induces, as well as their resistances

 

[Eficiente]

@Cal Here.

@Saikou I mean, in canon it is called black hole (and sucks light), and while canon doesn't matter how does it become a nameless attack here?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Efi It's neither called a black hole nor does it sucks light in Smash. Neither do any of the black holes in the game, in fact.

But on the subject of Marx, some of the bosses might have interesting feats on their own:

-Marx created the vortex that leads to his 4-A-sized pocket dimension, which disappeared after his defeat (the vortex, not the dimension), implying that he created it.

-The three "light" bosses were sustaining the barrier around Galeem and broke it upon being defeated.

-All six bosses can influence Galeem and Dharkon's struggle hard enough to make the sky gets covered in more darkness or more light.

Not sure if any of them are solid enough, but I'd consider them more solid than Marx's black hole.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think that implies he created it, especially considering that canon Marx has similar and more reliable feat rejected.

Neutral on anything scaling from Galeem and Dharkon.

Also, how is Arceus>>>to Palkia & Dialga in Smash or has a Low 2-C feat? We just know that he "created the world and the sky". If he precedes time then the god-tiers may as well have infinite speed.

 

[The_Smashor]

Dialgo is Low 2-C by being born. MH >>>> Arceus > Dialga.


How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?