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Mario Discussion Thread, Seconda parte.

I personally think the Mooks should've scaled to the Bye Bye Cannon seeing as how any enemy in the RPGs can take the attack (hell, in DT where it came from Goombas aren't even actual fodder and those rock things were)

Chain Chomps are also consistently hard for Mario to defeat and he's had some trouble restraining them while Shy Guys can also restrain Chain Chomps with difficulty and hold up Thwomps. Goombas have also tanked being stomped on by Yoshi and needed to be hit twice (possible mid regen since they appeae almost flattened but can pop bacm up) and one Goomba in NSMBDS was able to grow in size and be enough of a threat to warrant being a boss that Mario couldn't damage with normal jumps. Hell, Goombas in Mario Odyssey can already break stone bricks and should also be comparable to Hammer Bros. (albeit still weaker) and the little sprout enemy which are used to defeat bosses; there's even an exploit that allows a Goomba to fight Spewart, though obviously that's dubious. Also, Madame Brood can be harmed by her pet Chain Chomp. Yes, it was made of gold and rather large, but it's still proof that the Chain Chomp line are probably one of the most formidable enemies in Bowser's Army capable of harming even bosses themselves. Even in Galaxy, normal Goombas could be hit with a Star Spin and still be fine, albeit dazed and left spinning wildly, but this same Star Spin is also used to harm multiple bosses.

And then for speed, Shy Guy can react to Bowser catching on fire from sheer speed (which I've heard requires supersonic-hypersonic speeds for human-sized people, but Bowser is definitely bigger so it's probably in the hypersonic range) and then all dodge him at point-blank range in Bowser's Shy Guy Squad attack in BiS. And if we want to, Odyssey has enemies capable of moving at certain frames with lasers we can compare them to. These are the only notable thing besides enemies being able to react to Mario in-game or the eaely day Magikoopas and Bowser Statues shooting light at you and lasers, respectively, of which Mario could outrun and dodge and most enemies weren't much slower than Mario.

Even within Super Mario World where Low 7-B Mario originated, he couldn't harm Thwomps and the Galoomba and certain other enemies required more than just jumping on them.

I've always been saying the Minions were definitely more than Wall for a while now. I'll take 8-C but I can see them being even higher than that, too. And I'm not claiming anything obscene here, as I'm only providing examples of cases where mooks have been threats or have shown feats. 8-C is actually somewhat consistent with the AP Mario shows in Odyssey (well, discounting scaling and his durability) as well as the feat of surviving the crash in the RPGs which the Minions also survive the Koopa Cruiser crash.

Koopa Shells and Bob-Ombs have also consistently tanked attacks from Mario (albeit the Bombs blow up afterwards) and also have consistently been used to harm bosses like in BJ's fight in SMBU or Bowser's SMB3 or SMW fight.
 
That could be. But the only games he can deal damage to them are the RPGs, and you can't one-shot them even then. Plus, he's struggled to restrain them before which should already showcase their massive strength. And even then, that's the only part you extrapolated from that?
 
Yes most of all that is game mechanics

Why. Is it too ridiculous to say that one enemy that is usually portrayed as relatively strong scales to Mario. Not all basic enemies need to be fodder in games.
 
Yes but Mario can't really hurt them as easily as the fodder enemies in some games, and can't at all in others. This is nothing like how a fodder enemy would have to be dealt with.
 
No they aren't, in a large swath games Mario can only hurt them with power ups or needs to release them in order to get rid of them.
 
How is it inconsistent if they are usually portrayed as hard to kill? In almost all of the main games you can't beat them without either breaking their pole or some power ups. This isn't like saying Goombas or Koopas scale, this is a relatively rare enemy that often is meant as a threat.
 
Goombas and Koopas do scale, Minions Quest and Jr's Journey shows that they scale. Mario not being able to harm Chain Chomps is an obvious game mechanic, there enemies in games thst don't allow you to harm them for some reason. However, thr rpgs display you can harm them, not being able to one-shot them is irrelevant because sometimes fodder enemies take more then a single hit.
 
I agree that Mario can harm them going off of the RPG's (it isn't exactly consistent with the main games though we should still use it.) but the point is that Chomps are never treated as fodder enemies.
 
I don't think we can use Bye Bye cannon to scale to fodder enemies; that appears to be a practice known as hiding an outlier. A strong character performing what's considered a strong attack, that was simply calculated to a feat much lower than what they're already scale from just to scale to weaker enemies is often known as hiding outliers.
 
You also can't kill Koopas by just stomping on them in many mario games. You usually need to ground pound, or use power ups.
 
Really, I'm just saying the Minion profiles we have should at least get a "possibly higher" rating to fit the vague range they can be via all the shit they've done. So if I did propose anything based on that wall of text above, it'd be "At least 8-C, possibly higher" and I think that's fine.
 
Also, I think the Koopa Troop should generally have superhuman LS given Goombas can carry large Papercrafts in Paper Jam, some enemies can hold up Thwomps, Shy Guys can restrain Chain Chomps which are balls of iron (even with empty space taken into consideration they still would easily weigh more than a human) and Goombas can also support really large towers of them stacked on top of each other plus having Bowser on top in 3D Land. Bowser easily is at least Peak Human to Class 1 alone to be able to support him and the fact this tower of Goombas is tall enough to reach above the clouds as well as meet Peach and Mario when they flew in a straight line from the top of a spire on Bowser's castle is something. Likely at least a hundred Goombas stacked.
 
Quite a lot of discussion about the tier of the minions, will probably give my own opinions about that later. @NotAMarioFan the profile's coming along nicely, don't have as much time as I usually do to work on it atm but it's decently close to completion.
 
There was a CRT for Large Town level minions, but it just... stopped being worked towards. There was a lot of support for it though, IIRC
 
The Large Town level was a calculation from the Bye Bye Cannon; however, I discussed in detail why it shouldn't be used. It's just a low end calc used by stronger characters and upgrading fodder just because they survive hits from it sounds like hiding an outlier. I did however recall someone calculating the castle blowing up at 8-B which the minions survived. But it should be moved to a blog or something.
 
It was also due to a calculation in Death Battles (tennis stadium explosion, blast engulfed basic minions including Goombas, but they were quite far from the source of the blast, so rounded to Large Town level), which pointed to the same tier. This would imply it's not an outlier.

Maybe someone should calculate the Koopa Cruiser explosion as well, as basically the entire Koopa Troop (it's implied all the minions in Minion Quest were scattered from the explosion, which includes a very diverse range of minions) survived that and the resulting fall to the ground.
 
Well, I know the Wario Bros and Bowser took the whole impact head on, but keep in mind that inverse square law is something that needs to be accounted for when tanking large explosions. And iirc, most of those minions where in the audience and only withstood the edge of the explosion.

The floating Castle exploding in Bowser's Minions has good potential though.
 
Yes, them being at the edge is why it got rounded to Large Town level. The actual blast was way higher, but since they weren't in the centre, it was lowered to get that result.

So does the Koopa Cruiser, considering it has a whole in-game map in it and such, said map not even really scratching the surface as seen in later scenes such as Bowletta chasing Luigi showing off more of the interior. I'd say do them both if possible.
 
I'd need to see the calculation for the stadium; and there should be a blog for it if there isn't already. I know it came from Death Battle, but it's preferable of someone here calculates it instead.
 
Town level minions still needs to have a calc on the blog and for a calc group member to accept it, but it's fine if that gets made.
 
Just to clarify, Bowser catching on fire or igniting the ground in the Shy Guy Corps attack in BIS via spinning really fast--is that a supersonic-hypersonic feat? Cause if so, like I've said, the Shy Guys dodge this and every Minion can dodge their attacks in Miniom Quest and BJ's Journey.

Plus, what other reaction times/combat speeds would we have to scale them to? As far as I'm aware, this is the only good speed feat that isn't travel speed displayed by a Minion that's not from Mario Party.
 
Depends on whether or not the Chain Chomps they carry are heavy enough to justify Class 10, although a good lifting feat is a group of 3 Boos being able to effortlessly move around a massive brick wall that's well over 20 feet tall and likely 5~7 feet wide.
 
So we need a calc for the mass of chain chomps??????

Should we assume it's steel for their material or does anyone know of a canon material which says what chain chomps are made of?????
 
Paragoombas have been shown to be comparable if not superior in speeds to various birds, so I can imagine a speed upgrade for them. And moving chain chomps seem like a good lifting strength feat.
 
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