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Mario Discussion Thread, Seconda parte.

Oh yeah, there's the castle feat; though the inverse square law makes it not so impressive. Monty Mole already has the 8-C brought up that it's going to be proposed.
 
And again, there's the town level stuff for fodder as well that we still meed actual calcs and then a compilation of feats altogether for.
 
DRB just posted a CRT for the Mario series, doesn't have anything to do with what's been discussed on these two discussion threads but revolves around the Gentle Pull, Shadoo, Rosalina, and other stuff.
 
I still feel there's an upgrade to the 3-C rating from the black hole in Galaxy 2 being as big as World 5 that had multiple galaxies. We can use the World Map to justify speed, but not AP? Seems weird. But I suppose it doesn't matter much.
 
Agreed, and in fact. I consider the SMRPG sprites nostalgic works of art. And at least SNES aged well due to being the console that perfected 2D gaming.
 
Could anyone provide a link to Dino's CRT please?

Foxthefox1000 said:
I still feel there's an upgrade to the 3-C rating from the black hole in Galaxy 2 being as big as World 5 that had multiple galaxies. We can use the World Map to justify speed, but not AP? Seems weird. But I suppose it doesn't matter much.
Click to expand...
I mean, sure, but why does the black hole matter? It's just a random black hole that exists in World 6, it doesn't really serve any more purpose than aesthetics.
 
Because Bowser falls into it and manipulates it and also it dissipates when he's defeated? Should scale to durability and AP for the high-end of the varies rating, with either a really high 3-C or a pretty low 3-B unless the energy to create that black hole and sustain it is lower.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Because Bowser falls into it and manipulates it and also it dissipates when he's defeated? Should scale to durability and AP for the high-end of the varies rating, with either a really high 3-C or a pretty low 3-B unless the energy to create that black hole and sustain it is lower.
Click to expand...
When does Bowser fall into it? When does he manipulate it? It only exists on the World Map and isn't really seen or touched on outside of this... Plus, we see the Green Prankster Comet fly past World 6 (which happens after the 120 Star ending, ergo post-Bowser's defeat) with the black hole still there, so we know it doesn't dissipate when he's defeated.

I don't really know where you're getting these ideas from, but they seem to rely more on a specific interpretation than actual concrete scenes...
 
In the battle, you see Bowser roar and the background shifts and changes. That's him manipulating it. You fight him insdie the large black hole because in the canon ending cutscene, the overwhelmingly massive black hole you can observe from any point in that World is gone. Post-game doesn't matter her because of course it doesn't, so using Prankster Comets is a bad example. And the ending also literally has Bowser fall into the collapsing vortex. Before you emter the final level, Rosalina's ship is seen being drained in front of the reactor which is in front of the black hole, but in the ending cutscene, her ship is seen recovering and there's clearly no more black hole.

Literally just go watch Galaxy 2's final boss and ending. It's all right there.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
In the battle, you see Bowser roar and the background shifts and changes. That's him manipulating it.
Click to expand...
How did you connect a black and red-coloured black hole to a purple vortex exactly? Are you trying to say he manipulated its colour as well? How did you perceive these two as one, exactly? Not to mention the black hole on the world map dwarved Bowser's faceship and was found outside it, whilst Bowser created the vortex inside his own faceship...

Post-game doesn't matter her because of course it doesn't, so using Prankster Comets is a bad example.
Elaborate, because to me "post-game matters because of course it does". Considering SMG2 is a story book, and there is a second storybook which references the green stars themselves in the very title, it's just as important to the book series that is SMG2 as the first 120 stars. I see no reason for it not to matter.
 
The color doesn't matter because that IS the manipulation. It changes to that purple vortex (which sucks in light and does have a black hole end) and when it collapses on his defeat, that massive black hole is gone. Plus, how do you know he created it inside the ship when you enter a portal to get to his lair?

You can only interpret that as him manipulating the already existing black hole, which the size alone would still warrant that tier, and then the other interpretation is that it was destroyed either by him making that new one or when it all came falling down. The semantics really don't matter here as there once was a supermassive black hole and then there wasn't.

Eh, I dunno. Repeating the same level for a Comet either means that these bosses can canonically resurrect and/or these Comets manipulate time and send Mario back in time or that those instances simply aren't canon or can't logically be applied when looking for feats due to the inconsistencies with the main plot of the game literally having said black hole vanish when you defeat Bowser, cause it bears repeating that initially entering the World and hanging out on Starship Mario still has the black hole in sight and Starship Mario entering the level never left it's position yet when Peach and Mario return there's no sign of it.

I honestly don't quite get what's so hard to grasp for you. The very simple thought of "There was a black hole and now there's not" should honestly be more than enough in terms of critical thinking here.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
The color doesn't matter because that IS the manipulation. It changes to that purple vortex (which sucks in light and does have a black hole end) and when it collapses on his defeat, that massive black hole is gone. Plus, how do you know he created it inside the ship when you enter a portal to get to his lair?
Click to expand...
Somehow I expected this point to be made... I find it weird he'd create a lair and then not be in it... The only reason I can think of is that it would mean that those looking to fight him wouldn't find him in the most obvious place to look but... you know, he has a portal leading right to his location. I guess it's up in the air. (Also, it being a black hole doesn't necessarily make it the same black hole, referring to the first point in this quote...)

You can only interpret that as him manipulating the already existing black hole, which the size alone would still warrant that tier, and then the other interpretation is that it was destroyed either by him making that new one or when it all came falling down. The semantics really don't matter here as there once was a supermassive black hole and then there wasn't.
I mean, this feat is already listed on Bowser's profile as 3-A, so not sure if you're trying to downgrade it to 3-C... I don't see this as the only interpretation though, I've had debates about it before and generally different conclusions are reached.

Eh, I dunno. Repeating the same level for a Comet either means that these bosses can canonically resurrect and/or these Comets manipulate time and send Mario back in time or that those instances simply aren't cano
Funnily enough, there are actually statements that says that bosses can canonically be ressurrected, as the Bouldergeist prankster comet is referred to as though it were a rematch by the Prima Guide of Mario Galaxy 1. I haven't actually checked the others, but for more information, see here.

or can't logically be applied when looking for feats due to the inconsistencies with the main plot of the game literally having said black hole vanish when you defeat Bowser, cause it bears repeating that initially entering the World and hanging out on Starship Mario still has the black hole in sight and Starship Mario entering the level never left it's position yet when Peach and Mario return there's no sign of it.
I did consider this, actually, it's an interesting point that would give weight to the idea. I still think it's weird to connect the two black holes as one, but you can't deny this is a thing... I am really unsure as if to Starship Mario moved to a closer location of whatever, but I guess the point still stands.

I honestly don't quite get what's so hard to grasp for you. The very simple thought of "There was a black hole and now there's not" should honestly be more than enough in terms of critical thinking here.
Hmm, because it feels weird, really. There is very little to point to it being a valid point, so it feels like an obscure interpretation. For example, I could say Kirby is obviously a member of Heart Matter due to a number of simple-to-grasp reasons, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with me or instantly understand. What may be obvious to you due to how you've interpretated things may take a while longer for those who saw it differently.
 
Eh, I still don't agree with your views. But I don't want the headache of arguing against a brick wall that's not even faltering when we're leading back to the same place.

Anyways, interesting thing I noticed in Odyssey: Mario when entering Capture's sheds his skin before entering the capture and can produce a new body when jumping out of them. This is even shown in the cutscenes as his form dissipates into small particles just before entering the object or living thing and his spirit? New body? has a glow to it. This could be intangibility via his spirit since it has to enter the physical body to possess them and otherwise how else would a being be able to possess someone? With the context that his soul is being forced into the body of his desire, the shedding of his corporeal or physical form makes sense. Beyond this, he can enter the 2D sections on the walls and jump out of them and into his 3D form again.

Just interesting things I've seen.
 
Here's what I was talking about. You can see Mario's soul or whatever being plucked from his body as it starts to dissipate.

Screenshot 2020-01-08-01-01-06
Screenshot 2020-01-08-01-01-13
Screenshot 2020-01-08-01-01-19


This shows how it looks in the first Capture cutscene.

Screenshot 2020-01-08-01-00-09
Screenshot 2020-01-08-00-21-51


Could be interesting as possible proof of higher regen.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Eh, I still don't agree with your views. But I don't want the headache of arguing against a brick wall that's not even faltering when we're leading back to the same place.
Click to expand...
Ah, that's fair enough, sorry for being a pain. I'm glad you gave me the time to explain your view nonetheless, you explained it pretty well so I have a good idea of how the argument works (so now I can use it in my own debates >:3). I still think the evidence is shaky, but I still appreciate the explanation.

[Odyssey capture stuff]
Nice find, I think it deserves looking into! I agree with your conclusion about the regen and soul stuffins.
 
Well, thank you for being civil and rational, at least. Sorry if I sounded heated or anything. I just have a really hard time--mentally--with debating as a whole.

And yeah, hopefully the Odyssey Capture stuff could be used to provide some upgrades to regen and all. I mean, sensibly, when you "exit" a Capture, you're freeing yourself from their mind/soul and stepping out into the world as a disembodied conciousness anyways, so Mario would kinda need to generate a body out of thin air. This is even shown by Bullet Bills literally exploding like a suicide bomb since there's no more physical body left yet Mario just pops up unharmed. This is further strengthend by the evidence that Mario's soul/spirit is being sucked into the Capture, of course.

I guess sone could write it off as "Cappy magic" and then say Mario still has a physical body even inside the conciousness of the things he inhabits and then somehow that same magic allows him to come out but eh. That's making just as many assumptions, if not more, than what the physical evidence shows.
 
I'd say it fits most in line with Low Godly, as the description given on the page seems to match this scenario well.

Regenerationn:
Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of your body, instead restoring it from your disembodied consciousness, whether that be your soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of yourself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.
 
That doesn't seem like Low Godly, his physical body wasn't getting destroyed, it was getting put into the thing that was captured by cappy.

IF we assume it's regen, it looks more like low high looking at the screenshots
 
The screenshots literally show his essence being sucked out of his body which dematerializes. He also literally becomes the creature, with his mustache and hat altering the appearance of the body he inhabits like a normal possession and he can casually exit being this creature's conciousness no problem and if their bodies are destroyed (Bullet Bills), he can come out just fine.

You'd have some merit if that animation of Mario's body disassembling wasn't there. We've also seen in Mario that possession always changes the person's appearance that got possessed and makes them assume a form that's similar to the person taking them over. We have Bowletta and Lucien to show for that. His physical body entering another being wouldn't even make sense because how is that physical body escaping from the capture? There's no special animatiom. He'd have to be an ethereal spirit or something to phase through and literally jump out of a thing's conciousness. Hell, even wearing other costumes, the thing that gets sucked out is the classic red and blue outfit so what else can be happening beyond him becoming some ethereal, incorporeal form to enter and then exit the conciousness of the captures? How does one's physical body become the essence of a spark in a power line without causing major problems? His physical body would have to be extremely tiny in such a case for all of these as well so resistance to size manip would also have to be something that's worth considering if we follow that logic. Hell, immunity to electricity since this "physical body" can stay inside of a spark for so long? It literally doesn't make sense for his body to be inside the thing because when he transfers his conciousness he BECOMES that creature, physically, mentally, and all. His physical body is currently that creature as he manifests facets of himself on their bodies and they lose them when his conciousness leaves, and one of these happens to be a form of energy.

There's less questions answered and more questions raised with the overall bigger assumption that his body is somehow entering the captures.

But it's whatever. You believe what you want, I guess.
 
That looks more like a teleportation effect rather then legit Regenerationn; Luigi also goes through the same thing in Luigi's Mansions 2 and 3.
 
I get what example you're trying to use, but do keep in mind that Mario's body is perfectly fine even if who he's possessing gets completely destroyed.
 
That's not the same thing. Luigi doesn't have his main body be assimilated and then assume a new form complete with his features that he can abandon or have destroyed and return to his oroginal form at any time.

You'd have a point if Luigi's main body wasn't still clearly there when he transfers his conciousness over to Gooigi. The pixelator is also trictly teleportation and it doesn't involve Luigi entering a vessel and literally becoming said vessel with control over their entire body as well as changing that beings body structure like giving them mustaches, eyes, changes in eye color, and a hat.

When Mario alters the bodies of his captures, that's him making his new body familar and comfortable. They are a part of his being and therefore they manifest on the things he inhabits. His old body is practically atomized and his soul is transferred into the new one. You can clearly see his spirit and his old body in the same frame, showing two different bodies while one is fading away. This same spirit never changes, and always has the same apperance regardless of clothing.

Though in the ending of Odyssey, Mario has his White Tux form but when tranferred to Bowser, the same animation of the body assimilating plays and he glows. I don't see how this isn't his spirit or consciousness or even him turning into a form of energy or something. Normal Mario bounces off enemies but he can somehow enter them now? And how does he exit? Wouldn't the same animation have to play if it was simply transportation? Wouldn't he need Cappy's help? Except he doesn't. They all can turn into the Spark thing in the ending and then have their normal forms pop back up and it actually doesn't have Peach or Bowser assimilated, so they actually have their bodies turned into energy and then can return to their normal forms. Hell, Mario is still Bowser's conciousness so he IS Bowser's conciousness in a body that converted to energy and then can pop out of that all just fine when they all crash.

But I dunno. It's whatever
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Wouldn't he need Cappy's help? Except he doesn't.
Click to expand...
I've had a few debates on this topic and the conclusion of "Cappy magic", as you once put it, or rather Cappy being the one to recreate Mario's body was seen as just as valid a conclusion of how this all works by those who opposed. So I don't think we can write that off just yet, at least not so non-chalantly. I'm not saying I'm opposed, just that some folks have brought it up.

Talking of the Pixellator, as well as things like the transformation Candy in the mid-Mario Party games (MP7/8 IIRC), the paint portals in Mario Sunshine (a 4koma you can find on the Super Mario Wiki page for SMS showing that if one were to grab one of these orbs, Mario wouldn't reassemble this piece if we were to take other official media) and Warp Pipes in Super Paper Mario, Mario does seem to be disassembled into little bits and then rebuilt from them quite often. Whilst clearly the Pixellator is behind the first case, and maybe the candy, I think some of these could be legitamate regen feats. Not on a low godly level, but pretty close if it's a safer bet.

With regards to the Boo Mushroom, whilst it's an interesting proposal, I think that might come down to transformation... We don't say Mario has clothes manipulation when he touches water as Bee Mario or Cloud Mario, so Boo Mario touching light would probably be treated the same. The gif certainly makes things interesting, but we haven't seen that form actually being entered (ergo through death rather than power-up) outside of this, so we don't know how it reacts to light. It may spell defeat because it's no longer an alternate form. Food for thought though.
 
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