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Major Mario CRT 2: The Lost Levels

The only time it would be combat applicable is if the OP mentions Peach being in jeopardy.
 
Oh yeah, forgot about resistance to Fate Manipulation. That sounds like something that could just be removed.
 
@DDM I've done so. I read the reason behind it and I'm guessing the other playable characters in SPM might have this ability too. If so, it has to be removed from their profiles as well.
 
So we dont know if the killing thing is true or not since he has never died before against dimentio but the incap thing is fine along with the rest
 
Your insistence to come in the thread and immediately stop discussing things after a few replies is very detrimental. Typically, whenever a user does this, it's seen as a concession and it's ignored. So why is this any different if you're not willing to defend your viewpoint? Despite your attempts to portraying the opposition as blueballing, the only actual problem here is the lack of patience you have to discuss this thread. Either defend what your saying or go back to the bleachers.

Real talk, people are rushing the **** out of these revisions. Someone posted how Dimentio didn't kill Mario with proof, it wasn't even disputed and this tidbit was added to the profile: "However, it should be noted that this ability does not prevents him from being knocked out, incapacitated, or even killed as seen with Dimentio."

Taking directly from the game's transcript for some examples:

1.) "Creature: So how'd your game end, anyway? Poison 1-Up? Bad jump? Or did someone...

[Mario responds]

Creature: What? You say your game's NOT over? Hahahaha! Yeah, I've heard THAT before. Denial, always the first step. Maybe you just need to hear it from Queen Jaydes. She's the scariest thing in The Underwhere...and that is SAYING something. She rules over us Shaydes, and she'll tell you straight...your game is OVER!"

2.) "Queen Jaydes: And by the way, it may please you to know that your game is not truly over. Somehow, you were sent to The Underwhere while still very much alive... My power can return you to your world if you so wish... What would you like to do?"

So not only is the bit where the Dark Prognosticus saying they'd die is flat out wrong (as Blaze originally said), but the example for Mario's fate hax not protecting him from death is flat out egregious. I went through another site literally detailing the deaths of numerous Mario characters throughout the games. Aside from a comic that actually just has Mario being incapped and Super Paper Mario being listed (which we just went over why he didn't actually die there), there's literally no mention of Mario dying whatsoever. So saying this is the case is baseless and thus, it needs to be removed. I'm fine if it doesn't prevent incap personally, but you claiming it can't stop death is flat out wrong.

I ask that we properly evaluate things from now on rather than rushing them because that's what got us to the moment of having to fix an incorrect note.
 
Tactics that have a side keep arguing over and over again are a serious issue in the wiki with no perfect solution, if someone expresseses having already said everything they needed to say and feel like not doing so again then that's to be respected.

Idk the full context but it would been that yes, Dimentio didn't kill anyone, his profile should be fixed and the note in Mario's profile should be changed, but death is still something that can happen to him for the reasons I said above. If truly needed I will point them out again, and by that I mean if other staff forgot or didn't read them.
 
@Theuser Joke or not, can you not make posts that can potentially provoke others and don't comment if you have nothing else to add? I'm not in the mood for drama, especially ones caused by taunts.

@PlozAlcachaz Speaking of which, we aren't "rushing the **** out of these revisions". Someone brought up an issue with an ability and considering it's not one that can be casually handed to characters, there's simply not enough strong support for it. So please relax....
 
Eficiente said:
Tactics that have a side keep arguing over and over again are a serious issue in the wiki with no perfect solution, if someone expresseses having already said everything they needed to say and feel like not doing so again then that's to be respected.

Idk the full context but it would been that yes, Dimentio didn't kill anyone, his profile should be fixed and the note in Mario's profile should be changed, but death is still something that can happen to him for the reasons I said above. If truly needed I will point them out again, and by that I mean if other staff forgot or didn't read them.
Click to expand...
Okay? I'm not saying you can't leave the thread, I said you shouldn't be asking them to remove material from pages if you're not willing to discuss the matter. Except what's been argued isn't the same. The only thing that's the same is the idea being repped, the evidence was new in suggesting what was being said.

Glad to see we can agree the Dimentio bit isn't accurate, that was my main problem with the note on the profile. The only other point I saw you bring up was in regard to it not preventing death was something completely different.

"The Fate Manip granted to him doesn't stop damage, defeats or incapacitations, as such it should also not stop death, especially in a verse where you can canonically revive someone from his skeleton in front of your foes."

Those three you listed are fundamentally different. Damage and defeat can cover things like one shots, they're not inherently indicative of something like killing. Archie Sonic literally has this exact same idea applied to his fate hax. Incapacitation is the same, though through different means such as other abilities like Sealing where it's not technically killing them. The fact Mario actually even gets out of these situations without being killed as Gyro says supports the idea that it would protect him from dying, this is common sense. Blaze already explained why the last bit about resurrection is genuinely irrelevant and doesn't apply to Mario, especially in a series narrative where he's never died with the links I gave you above.

Dino Ranger Black said:
@PlozAlcachaz Speaking of which, we aren't "rushing the **** out of these revisions". Someone brought up an issue with an ability and considering it's not one that can be casually handed to characters, there's simply not enough strong support for it. So please relax....
Click to expand...
I would've agreed with you if it weren't for the fact that Dimentio didn't kill any of the Mario cast is a notion that got effectively ignored not once, not twice, THREE times.

"Dimentio never killed Mario. Neither Peach, Bowser or Luigi for that matter."

"The last part about It not stopping death should probably be changed, cause Dimentio didn't kill Mario"

"^ on 26:27 queen Jaydes stated that they were much alive when they were in the underwhere (Hell)"

You yourself questioned when it was brought up because it was a concerning matter, yet you didn't object passed Medeus saying he removed it. I am inclined to say it's rushed if we literally are having to go back to that same note and reclarify it, that's the definition of rushing something. I wasn't trying to seem not relaxed, but it didn't seem like you guys were paying attention at all to what the opposition was saying otherwise when that's frankly annoying to negate that work.
 
It's more or less just a simple resistance to Existence Erasure, Mario is indeed capable of dying, but there was no fate manipulation involved in them surviving Dimentio's encounter.
 
I'll be referring to older arguments in this as well. Let's begin.

"And this that you wrote there is text, so what? It doesn't matter."

"Again, this adds nothing. Not little, legit nothing."

>Neither of these two are even arguments, just "No it doesn't matter" yet you have no actual explanation. Thus I can just dismiss them.

"Remember when I said "This is one very unlikely interpretation presenting itself as fact"? This is that+arrogance. You are literally making up the rules there, being with someone at the time is as much of a factor as which day of the week it happens and how's the weather."

>Love how you missed my point. Not only is it extremely inconsistent for Mario to get kidnapped as hundreds of his games don't display this, making this heavily reliant cherrypicking, but someone being there at all times is relevant. Not once has Mario been captured without anyone else to save him. Anytime this happens, someone is out there to prevent this. However in a combat situation, this cannot happen. As if Mario were to be permanently locked up, bye bye Peach. Referring back to Geno, "Say Bowser kidnapped you. Without the aid of the Star Road, you'd probably never be rescued!" Mario's wish was to always prevent Peach from being kidnapped forever. Meaning if Mario went without the wish coming true, he could have either died or been captured and never escape since Bowser has attempted to kill Mario or he's captured him. Either way, this clearly means that Mario getting kidnapped before is not a contradiction. Especially when this has only happened 6 times. 6. Do you know how many games Mario has? 256. In 250 of those games, he was not kidnapped. This is definitely cherrypicking.


"You can't just say it prevents death and then say how he did died once, it doesn't prevent death for that very reason, because he can revive."

>Only you put words in my mouth as I never said he's died. Mario has never canonically died. Ressurection being a thing is irrelevant and doesn't help your point as A. Mario needs the equipment on hand B. He's been on many adventures alone which would mean if he died while in the middle of an adventure, there is no ressurection going on C. Geno's statements back me up on preventing death.

"Is the negligence here on purpose? Every of the hundreds of places visited by Mario & Luigi was new for them at first, they have been in planets across the universe, other dimensions, they time traveled, etc. Other allies are comparable to them. Or better then, the answer is just Fate Manip, maybe that helps them do what they need to do, that's not less likely than the situation not happening in the first place due to Fate Manip as it's less restrictive by making everything more free, on top of it fitting more with what happened in canon."

>What even is your point here? What does the Bros visiting to many places even do relate to this? This is not a good argument as that doesn't suddenly now mean that the characters are aware as to what happened to Mario or where he's at. Exploring parts of the universe isn't going to mean they will know as to where Mario is going to be at. He could be anywhere, I fail to see what this is supposed provide. I feel like you misunderstood what I said.

"They are obvious to me but they aren't the same reasons you have."

"Why are you talking about anyone? No one has a set fate that we know of, nor are they fated to escape from being incapped."

>Because by your own words "This is one very unlikely interpretation presenting itself as fact. "Banishing Mario into a realm he can never escape" is possible because others can go to save Mario & eventually achieve it, the instances where he got kidnapped are proof of it." You ask why I am brining up other people, well ding dong, because you were the one who brought it up in the first place. You used an argument that requires outside help. About Mario being able to get captured, but it's fine because someone else will save him eventually. This doesn't work in vs threads. And this has me bringing up point 1 from above. The examples of Mario being kidnapped have the people saving him with prior knowledge or is heading to the same place as Mario. Yoshi was told Mario was captured. Luigi was told Mario was captured. Peach was told. Literally everyone had prior knowledge. No one is going to here.

"As before, they can get creative as they need to and/or the Fate Manip can help them. It happened before, it can happen again. No need to apply a 'it can't happen to begin with due to Fate Manip' due to requiring much more speculation than just claiming 'lol something like Luigi's Mansion 3 happens'."

>No, it happened never and has yet to even happen. Mario has not died. Refer to my other points.

"Do I need to point out the jump in logic and how one thing doesn't mean the other? As I said before, I do agree with Fate Manip, just not the way it's portrayed (which to some of you may as well be the same), so what Geno stated there still makes sense."

>Okay, so there's no actual argument here nor an elaboration. Geno is blatantly saying that Mario without the wish would have been dead or captured. As when Mario attempts at saving her, he will fail.

"The first part keeps wanting to make one belief the way the power works as only one and others as inconsistencies to it, which has no reason to be the case, "they didn't care" is not something in favor to the matter, it's the opposite. Imagine if Captain America or any Street level in some comic were to gain a significant boost in power that would make them herald level, we wouldn't just keep that regardless of the inconsistencies in all future comics that aren't continuations."

>I know you change it next, but definitely a false equivalence. Gaining a power boost out of nowhere is not the same as the limitations of what an ability can or can't do. Ones just involves physical strength. The other is many different scenerios can be displayed to do one thing yet display it as another way instead.

"Replace that with a new passive power and there are ways to get around it, maybe it doesn't have the scale/functions originally thought or maybe it's not actually passive."

>A power that is outright never brought up again. We haven't seen anyone in SMRPG get around it, and it's definitely passive because once the wish is granted, it doesn't go away. Otherwise Mario in many different attempts would have lost. Wishes in most cases don't just suddenly go away. In Mario's case, they don't.

"If a character states his favorite color to be green and years laters it clearly states it to be red then it doesn't mean it has 2 favorite colors, it means it's only one and green isn't its favorite color anymore, if the latter wasn't the intention of the writers but an accidental implication they made then you just have to deal with it, especially if red is stated many times to be his favorite color, is this perfectly clear?"

>Yet another false equivalence. Because fate manipulation is literally never brought up again. Your example has someone bringing it up again, timeframe doesn't matter here. This isn't the case of the creators giving Mario this ability (hell I doubt they even remember it) and bringing it up again, only to change up how it was working. No, this is a one time thing that is all we will have to go by, not other games mentions Mario's wishes.

"The implications in Mario's case aren't even "Well, this needs to be removed", not yet at least, just "It works differently as how one would think it does", which should honestly should be really easy for everyone to let go of, heck the note Mario right now has in his profile isn't how anyone would think the power works but some adaptation to it, which kinda turns the matter hypocritical."

>Everyone else was fine with the note, I even elaborated one what it does and how it worked with examples. I'm giving the way I think how it works, based off Geno's statement once again, do you really not think this should apply to almost any situation, not just a Peach getting kidnapped thing? Hell, if you want an example of how the fate manipulation could potentially work via cross scalling games, then here. As you can see, the Bros HP are 0, meaning death. That same bomb in the previous boss fights will give you a game over if you fail to win before it blows up. Yet what do we have here? They somehow survive with only a single health point despite that bomb being able to one-shot you in previous fights. What could this mean? Oh, how about it preventing death.

"Things like Flip, Cappy, Zone Speed, Superguard, his fire balls and others are obvious false equivalences. You can justify most as the characters not doing them in-character, and Mario only had Cappy in one game. Character doesn't use x power=/=it can't use x power, and the same happens in other verses, that didn't need to be said."

>Passive or not, my point still stands, especially with fire. As in some of the games, you can only shoot fire via a Fire Flower as shown in many mainline games or others such as The Thousand Year Door or Sticker Star. Yet Superstar Saga, Double Dash, SMRPG say otherwise.

Edit: They also escaped death in Partners in Time.
 
I'm also going to point out that Archie Sonic's limitations for fate manipulation are the same as Mario's, despite the fact that Sonic has also had several different kinds of inconveniences before. Yet we're all okay with it. No reason to say why Mario is any different.
 
Might as well bring up The Gentle Pull as well.

"There is a force that binds us, defying even time and space... Not even the laws of the universe can stop it. I knew its gentle pull would prevail. It is the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you. That pull is what brought us together."

So The Gentle Pull, a being to defies time and space, with not even the universe being able to stop it, can apparently reunite people together. It essentially manipulates fate to help Mario succeed in to being able to be reunited with Peach. His desires to be with Peach allow this to happen. While this isn't a specific ability Mario himself has, Ness has one for a very similar reason. That being The Truth of The Universe can manipulate fate in order for the heroes it chooses to be able to reach their goal. Such as Ness' goal being to stop Giygas.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I'm also going to point out that Archie Sonic's limitations for fate manipulation are the same as Mario's, despite the fact that Sonic has also had several different kinds of inconveniences before. Yet we're all okay with it. No reason to say why Mario is any different.
Click to expand...
Archie Sonic fatehax isn't comparable to Mario even if I agree with your points, main diference is that Sonic's fatehax is just related to himself and a meta commentary on a Sega mandate, Mario's is about saving Peach
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
@Theuser Joke or not, can you not make posts that can potentially provoke others and don't comment if you have nothing else to add? I'm not in the mood for drama, especially ones caused by taunts.
Click to expand...
I wasn't tauting Weeb at all especialy when I agree with him and even motivated him about this, all I did was respond to his joke with a goddamm iconic SpongeBob joke, that's literaly it, comments like yours are the one who causes drama where there's none
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It's more or less just a simple resistance to Existence Erasure, Mario is indeed capable of dying, but there was no fate manipulation involved in them surviving Dimentio's encounter.
Click to expand...
They encountered dimentio yes but they he didnt die to him just knocked out mostly
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Might as well bring up The Gentle Pull as well.
"There is a force that binds us, defying even time and space... Not even the laws of the universe can stop it. I knew its gentle pull would prevail. It is the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you. That pull is what brought us together."

So The Gentle Pull, a being to defies time and space, with not even the universe being able to stop it, can apparently reunite people together. It essentially manipulates fate to help Mario succeed in to being able to be reunited with Peach. His desires to be with Peach allow this to happen. While this isn't a specific ability Mario himself has, Ness has one for a very similar reason. That being The Truth of The Universe can manipulate fate in order for the heroes it chooses to be able to reach their goal. Such as Ness' goal being to stop Giygas.
Click to expand...
That seems like an extreme interpretation from what we know. What Rosalina said there is, while not 'wrong', very poetic, if the pull is literally the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you then that can be said to do anything really (make the world go round, transcend destiny, etc.), in the sense that it would need to be taken with a grain of salt. If it needs to be further clarified then I'm comparing it with any other overhyped concept that characters poetically attribute things like that, like love or friendship, the pull being literally the former.

But even if it was literal the scale of how it works and when it does so it pretty vague.

If anyone wants to point out how the pull was never said to make the world go round or transcend destiny while still thinking it defies the laws of the universe, time and space then I will point out how simply saying that they disagree with me does the job too.
 
The Gentle Pull, again, is so vague that it imo does not deserve a page. It has no known abilities, confirmed power level, and above all else, it's not even known if it's a tangible thing, or just Rosalina's poetic way of talking about love, player interference, destiny, etc...
 
That Player/You does exist in the Mario Multiverse. There's a mention to it in the Super Paper Mario books. And Thousand Year Door does have characters like Professor Frankly and Lord Crump talk to the player, in which Mario's partner has no clue what's going on when saying that.
 
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