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Major Mario CRT 2: The Lost Levels

HomestuckLover1 said:
The Gentle Pull, again, is so vague that it imo does not deserve a page. It has no known abilities, confirmed power level, and above all else, it's not even known if it's a tangible thing, or just Rosalina's poetic way of talking about love, player interference, destiny, etc...
Click to expand...
I would agree with this... until Rosalina stated that it transcends time and space, making it at least Low 2-C. In the Japanese translations from what Fox found, the universe can't stop it and several other statements of it being beyond time and space.
 
More often than not transcend is said poetically, especially in Japanese.

I consider this and the whole matter to be obvious, and would honestly take offense in having to further elaborate why it's poetic, so I'm gonna unfollow this thread.
 
Can somebody summarise what Dino and Medeus think that we should do, and what Eficiente thinks that we should do please?
 
I thought some of the Fate Manipulation stuff was already taken care of, but unsure about other details regarding the Gentle Pull or renaming it to "The Player/You". Speaking of which, "The Gentle Pull" isn't even the name of the entity, but rather the name of its power or action.
 
Sorry for the late response.

Firstly, Mario never died to Dimentio (which should be changed in Dimentio's profile). Dimentio knocked them out and sent them directly to the underwhere, as explained when you encounter him in Bleck's castle, so that Mario can finish collecting the Pure Hearts to defeat Bleck.

As for the fate manipulation, I respect that Eficiente doesn't want to reply anymore, but at the same time I promised I would respond, and I'm well within my rights to do so. Mario "simply beating Bowser every time they cross paths" is relevant when the alternative given by Geno, that Peach wouldn't be saved, strongly implying that Mario does not beat Bowser. And the outcome of Mario losing to Bowser, without PIS, would be his death. This should be reasonable enough.

We also have instances, like in The Thousand Year door, where Mario would have lost if it wasn't for fate. Peach was captured and possessed by the Shadow Queen, who was impervious to all of Mario's attacks. However, before Mario could die, the crystal stars move off on their own to send positive messages + support to Mario in order to weaken the Shadow Queen. The catch? According to Professor Frankly, crystal stars cannot differentiate between good and bad intent. There must have therefore been another force guiding the Crystal Stars; Mario's wish to always save Peach. This shows that while the fate manip can't make the impossible happen (Mario's attack aren't suddenly able to harm the Shadow Queen by fate alone), they can influence events significantly enough to let Mario overcome these situations.

I don't fully disagree with Eficiente, the fate manipulation has its limits and shouldn't completely prevent death or incapacitation. However it isn't trivial by any means either. Also, I myself have issues with the Gentle Pull having a profile and even being considered a character, but that on its own doesn't invalidate Rosalina's statements.
 
GyroNutz seems to make sense to me.
 
The explanation part is fine, but from where it says "Despite Mario being kidnapped by...", it should say "It is also likely that this can also influence outside events, like against the Shadow Queen in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, which also explains times where Mario is kidnapped by the likes of Bowser/King Boo. However, it should be noted that this ability does not fully prevent him from being knocked out, incapacitated, or likely even killed."
 
DatOneWeeb said:
>Everyone else was fine with the note, I even elaborated one what it does and how it worked with examples. I'm giving the way I think how it works, based off Geno's statement once again, do you really not think this should apply to almost any situation, not just a Peach getting kidnapped thing? Hell, if you want an example of how the fate manipulation could potentially work via cross scalling games, then here. As you can see, the Bros HP are 0, meaning death. That same bomb in the previous boss fights will give you a game over if you fail to win before it blows up. Yet what do we have here? They somehow survive with only a single health point despite that bomb being able to one-shot you in previous fights. What could this mean? Oh, how about it preventing death.

Edit: They also escaped death in Partners in Time.
Click to expand...
Doesn't this prove it prevents Death?
 
Within reason. Mario was still noticeably affected in those instances. If Mario gets hit by an attack hundreds or thousands of times above his paygrade, for instance, he can't fate manip his way into surviving. That's why I said "does not fully prevent".
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Ahh.
So his Fate Hax is applicable in instances against comparable or weaker opponents, but opponents far stronger it would be a No Limits Fallacy???
Click to expand...
Yes, it shouldn't make him invincible.
 
I don't fully know how Sonic's fate hax works, I'm only basing how Mario's fate hax works on Geno's statement + showings.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Shouldn't it work like Sonic's Fate Hax?
Click to expand...
No, it shouldn't, just because they are both "fatehax", Sonic's is about he always winning, that he is the embodiement of chaos and that he would always end up victorious

Mario's fatehax isn't about him winning, but about saving Peach, one is about himself, other involve diferent people
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
Mario's is somewhat similar to ness
Click to expand...
Except Ness and other characters alike comes from a force that actually controls fate and destiny, not the desire to save someone. That, and the fact that they actually have a reliance and connection to Truth.
 
I still heavily think Superstar Saga proves my points in preventing death. Like it showed, the bomb killed the Bros. Yet they were somehow able to get up, albeit on the verge of death. Because once again, because of what the wish specified, Mario will always be able to save Peach. How does he do that if he dies?

I still disagree with removing the resistance, and I'll talk about it later once this has been discussed. Because personally, you guys changed this too quicky. I said myself that I was gonna respond later, yet you removed it.

The Gentle Pull being a character or not doesn't matter at this point, but its power in manipulating fate should still be able to add here. Being able to defy the laws of the universe to make Mario and Peach be together is definitely note-worthy.
 
And once again, we've never actually seen Mario die. I still think this is something we should take account to, he's proven at least three times to escape dying. Geno's claim supports this idea, Bowser has tried to kill Mario before.
 
@Dino & Medeus

So should Gyro's suggestions be applied?
 
Take mine into consider as well, since I've shown three pieces of evidence that Mario has been able to prevent his death.
 
@DatOneWeeb

All the times you said were against opponents not too far off of Mario's paygrade. I'm talking about things way stronger than Mario killing him. Unless you want to attribute stuff like surviving Sammer's kingdom's destruction to his fate manip?
 
I don't see how Mario cast tanking the destruction of Sammer Kingdom would be Fate Manipulation as it's not Mario rescuing Peach, and more or less some unavoidable event that everyone just happened to survive. It seems to just be a typical outlier. Mario and Luigi defeating Dreamy Bowser on the other hand does involve Peach getting rescued, even if the feat appears even more outlierish due to being 2-B.
 
Yeah no. The star spirits are merely the guardians of the Dream Depot, the dream stone should be well beyond their's, and star road's, scope. Mario and Luigi beating Dreamy Bowser is 100% an outlier.
 
GyroNutz said:
@DatOneWeeb
All the times you said were against opponents not too far off of Mario's paygrade. I'm talking about things way stronger than Mario killing him. Unless you want to attribute stuff like surviving Sammer's kingdom's destruction to his fate manip?
Click to expand...
Gyro. You realize that I linked the video of a bomb that can one-shot the Bros. That should obviously mean that the bomb's power are greater than his. Overall what I'm trying to say is Mario can still be harmed and take damage. I listed that knocking out Mario with sheer strength is a wincon that can be used against him as it's been shown to affect him. As long as the person doesn't kill hik while he's knocked out, it'll be fine. It still contradicts the whole wish in the first place which others are kinda ignoring.
 
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