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Major Mario CRT 2: The Lost Levels

I reorganized the character profiles, and Low 2-C for base Mario cast is still rejected. More importantly is the Fandom move being less than 5 hours away possibly.
 
Low 2-C should still be given to Mario with the Power of the Stars

I'm gonna try and push for that.

even though the Secret levels in Sunshine seem to have the Doppler Effect going on due to the bending of light as the universe expands which may make them bigger than initially thought
 
With the forum move and all, this will have to be put on hold for now. Feel free to continue the discussion in the general discussion thread you made though.
 
GyroNutz said:
With the forum move and all, this will have to be put on hold for now. Feel free to continue the discussion in the general discussion thread you made though.
Click to expand...
Forum move? That's why I haven't seen too much activity, I might need to be more informed on this predicament.
 
Hey. I disagree with the Resistance to Fate Manip and the way Mario's Fate Manip is portrayed.

What the Dark Prognosticus does is described as Precognition, not fate manip, why wouldn't anything new this book may come up with be just new info it didn't know yet? Like new pages in a book?

On Mario's page: "Mario's wish was to always be able to save Princess Peach. Geno, someone who is sent to fix the Star Road and has extended knowledge on it, stated that without the wish, Mario wouldn't have been able to stop Bowser and save Peach. Meaning anyone that attempts to kill Mario will have an outcome of Mario succeeding as that interferes with his wish of always saving Peach. This includes fights without Princess Peach being involved as if Mario loses, he will not be there to save her the next time something happens. Along with this, certain forms of incapacitation will not work. For example, banishing Mario into a realm he can never escape interferes with his wish. Despite Mario being kidnapped by Bowser and King Boo before, the difference between here and a one on one fight is that Mario had outside help to get him free and thus does not contradict this. However, things such as knocking him out are allowed. As long as Mario does not die or never get the chance to save Peach, everything else is fair game."

This is one very unlikely interpretation presenting itself as fact. "Banishing Mario into a realm he can never escape" is possible because others can go to save Mario & eventually achieve it, the instances where he got kidnapped are proof of it. The Fate Manip granted to him doesn't stop damage, defeats or incapacitations, as such it should also not stop death, especially in a verse where you can canonically revive someone from his skeleton in front of your foes.
 
Gonna just say for that last bit, the instances something like that happens to Mario are very few and far between. And in a juggernaut franchise the size of Mario, there's going to be some contradictions like that. I could comparatively bring up like the 14 different times Arceus has one of its abilities contradicted but we just dismiss it as PIS. That's pretty dumb double standards if you ask me.
 
"What the Dark Prognosticus does is described as Precognition, not fate manip, why wouldn't anything new this book may come up with be just new info it didn't know yet? Like new pages in a book?"

>Fate Manipulation isn't something it has, yes, but you don't need to resist someone with fate manipulation to gain a resistance. The Dark Prognosticus has been correct for thousands of years in telling future events, not once has it been incorrect nor tampered with. Count Bleck read through the book, The Void was supposed to destroy everyone yet the four heroes ended up stopping it. Even The Ancients created the Light Prognosticus, a book specifically created to counter the Dark Prognosticus, didn't overall tamper with what was going happen. The Dark Prognosticus took priority. Not to mention Tippi states after Dimentio's fight (who he himself claimed the Dark Prognosticus shouldn't be wrong) that everyone can decide their own fate.

"This is one very unlikely interpretation presenting itself as fact. "Banishing Mario into a realm he can never escape" is possible because others can go to save Mario & eventually achieve it, the instances where he got kidnapped are proof of it. The Fate Manip granted to him doesn't stop damage, defeats or incapacitations, as such it should also not stop death, especially in a verse where you can canonically revive someone from his skeleton in front of your foes."

>This is taking outside forces into consideration. I pointed this out already, Mario in this case had outside help. Meaning it basically garuntees his chances if surviving. But even then, him getting kidnapped is extremely inconsistent. Over a couple of times compared to hundreds of different games, these don't hold up that well. As far as I'm aware, anytime he's been kidnapped, someone is there for him. But not in a 1v1 fight. It prevents death, as it literally interferes with what his fate manipulation is. The note says Mario can still be knocked out in a fight, such as in Paper Mario for example, but not a permanent death. The incapacitation has to be temporary as well, who is going to help Mario escape from being sent to certain places no one has ever been to? We don't consider outside forces for obvious reasons. Otherwise anyone can now escape from being incapped. Canonical ressurections are irrelevant, especially if Mario has no ressurection items nor someone backing him up to be aware he's dead. Hell, Geno stated that had Mario not have this ability, we would've already lost to Bowser way before, clearly implying this prevents his death.
 
@PlozAlcachaz That comment on itself is a problem. You have no reason to keep thinking this power to be as OP as portrayed just because, and with other showings being low-ends or something. Instead, the powers doesn't work the way it was claimed to work given the evidence of it. I consider Pokemon to get special treatments, in the bad sense.

@DatOneWeeb That just makes me have more questions. Before anything could you put everything in an organized way that shows the stuff claimed, like the profiles should do? I'll make my questions after seeing that.

>"This is taking outside forces into consideration. I pointed this out already, Mario in this case had outside help."

And this that you wrote there is text, so what? It doesn't matter.

>"But even then, him getting kidnapped is extremely inconsistent. Over a couple of times compared to hundreds of different games, these don't hold up that well."

Again, this adds nothing. Not little, legit nothing.

>"As far as I'm aware, anytime he's been kidnapped, someone is there for him. But not in a 1v1 fight."

Remember when I said "This is one very unlikely interpretation presenting itself as fact"? This is that+arrogance. You are literally making up the rules there, being with someone at the time is as much of a factor as which day of the week it happens and how's the weather.

>"It prevents death, as it literally interferes with what his fate manipulation is. The note says Mario can still be knocked out in a fight, such as in Paper Mario for example, but not a permanent death. The incapacitation has to be temporary as well"

You can't just say it prevents death and then say how he did died once, it doesn't prevent death for that very reason, because he can revive.

>"who is going to help Mario escape from being sent to certain places no one has ever been to?"

Is the negligence here on purpose? Every of the hundreds of places visited by Mario & Luigi was new for them at first, they have been in planets across the universe, other dimensions, they time traveled, etc. Other allies are comparable to them. Or better then, the answer is just Fate Manip, maybe that helps them do what they need to do, that's not less likely than the situation not happening in the first place due to Fate Manip as it's less restrictive by making everything more free, on top of it fitting more with what happened in canon.

>"We don't consider outside forces for obvious reasons."

They are obvious to me but they aren't the same reasons you have.

>"Otherwise anyone can now escape from being incapped."

Why are you talking about anyone? No one has a set fate that we know of, nor are they fated to escape from being incapped.

>"Canonical ressurections are irrelevant, especially if Mario has no ressurection items nor someone backing him up to be aware he's dead."

As before, they can get creative as they need to and/or the Fate Manip can help them. It happened before, it can happen again. No need to apply a "it can't happen to begin with due to Fate Manip" due to requiring much more speculation than just claiming "lol something like Luigi's Mansion 3 happens".

>"Hell, Geno stated that had Mario not have this ability, we would've already lost to Bowser way before, clearly implying this prevents his death."

Do I need to point out the jump in logic and how one thing doesn't mean the other? As I said before, I do agree with Fate Manip, just not the way it's portrayed (which to some of you may as well be the same), so what Geno stated there still makes sense.
 
I personally disagreed with Zone Speed being just perception Manip because the official site listed it as a time-related ability but it's whatever.

As for the Fate Manip, clearly this shit isn't combat-applicable to you. If that's the case and others agree just don't add it. What's the point of having something listed that isn't helpful? Might as well put it under "Weaknesses"

Yeah, I'm exaggerating but I still don't like adding something that apparently is pointless. If you agree to Fate Manip but disagree with literally all of the justifcations than tell us YOUR interpretation. All you've done is dismiss other's interpretations atm
 
Speaking of Zone Speed the description given to it in profiles misses how it first needs to be charged by some random energy as opposed to it being able to be used any time. That needs to be fixed.

Aside from that I find the message Foxthefox directed me to be honestly crazy, so I'm just gonna dismiss it.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
What's the point of having something listed that isn't helpful?

Yeah, I'm exaggerating but I still don't like adding something that apparently is pointless.
Click to expand...
This is an indexing wiki first and foremost, as many others have said. It doesn't matter what is and isn't helpful or pointless when it comes to abilities, you add it anyways.
 
I am leaning towards disagreeing with the fate manip resistance, to be honest. The events of the game point towards the Dark Prognosticus simply being wrong in the end, whether that's because predicting the destruction of all worlds is beyond its scope, or because Dimentio, who potentially created the Dark Prognosticus, tampered with events to let the four heroes beat Bleck. I doubt it'd be accepted anyway since the reasons don't seem any different from when it was proposed the last times, just expanded upon a bit.

As for "fate manip", I'm not sure what scale you think's being proposed, but I don't entirely agree with what you're saying either. We have the example of Mario being unable to rescue Peach from Bowser without his fate manip. And in each of their encounters (bar a couple, like Paper Mario, but the star rod has its own plot manip) Mario beats Bowser first time. There's no "Mario dies but gets revived by Luigi a few days later". It's not a jump in logic to say that the fate manip prevents Mario from dying when that'd be the only logical outcome if he lost to Bowser. I do agree that it doesn't make Mario unbeatable, as even in canon, he's lost/been captured/been knocked out before. But even in cases where he has lost, like in Super Princess Peach, he was alive and well when he got saved by Peach.
 
Well, I invite to rethink that last part after seeing it in perspective:

  • There's not a scale I think's being proposed, I quoted part of a note in Mario's profile that was accepted in this thread. Meaning Mario can't die or get incapacitated forever due to Fate Manip doing that.
  • What we see in games was Mario getting incapacitated beyond his ability to get free and momentarily dying.
  • What I say is that incapacitating Mario beyond his ability to get free and killing him is possible, that there is no Fate Manip stopping that and that other factors will save Mario.
GyroNutz said:
There's no "Mario dies but gets revived by Luigi a few days later". It's not a jump in logic to say that the fate manip prevents Mario from dying when that'd be the only logical outcome if he lost to Bowser. I do agree that it doesn't make Mario unbeatable, as even in canon, he's lost/been captured/been knocked out before.
Click to expand...
It is simply illogical. There's no "Mario dies but gets revived by Luigi a few days later" while there is "Mario can't die due to Fate Manip"? When he has died? When the same Fate Manip never did a thing for him getting damage, losing, being captured and knocked out? Why makes those events play out with the result of Mario saving Peach but dying is something tha Fate Manip just has to stop? That comes out of nowhere, it's more consistent if the Fate Manip just has Mario saving Peach some time after dying.
 
Yes he can get incap via mind manipulation, bfr, AP advantage, etc. The quote just needs to be rephrased differently as long as mario doesnt die
 
Again, we can see how the fate manip works by the example Geno gives. Mario would be unable to save Peach from Bowser if he didn't have this fate manip. How does this happen? As we see in the games, it's because Mario simply beats Bowser every time they cross paths (bar a couple of exceptions, but I've already said this, and these happened before Super Mario RPG anyway). What Geno said refers to games like all 3 Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, where there's no outside forces like you're claiming.

Also, when has Mario ever canonically died? Even at times where he's been at the villain's mercy, like Luigi's Mansion or Super Princess Peach, he's alive and well upon being rescued (and again, I've already said this). Cases where he has lost, like the intro to Super Mario Galaxy, they've been more like inconveniences which still ultimately work out for Mario; certainly not on the scale of your workarounds.
 
Mario did technically die in Super Paper Mario, when Dimentio killed the party and sent them to the Afterlife. Though, there were able to escape and return to the living world for other reasons.
 
Who allowed his profile to die about it, then?

In any case, the 2 things you said there miss the point in a way that makes them pointless next to my proposals.

  • How the fate manip works by the example Geno gives doesn't matter as I do agree that Fate Manip is there helping Mario, just not in the exaggerated way portrayed.
  • How Mario simply beats Bowser every time they cross paths most of the time has no reason to make anyone hold into that belief given the fact that, in practice, it's not as simple and things can happen to Mario. There is no reason to believe Fate Manip works in x unreasonable way when a more reasonable was pointed out. Also Bowser kinda escapes from Mario in many of his fights after being defeated, which fits well on my idea of Mario eventually saving Peach.
What's more, even if we have no examples of Mario dying we should assume that to be something that can happen to him given the other things the Fate Manip can allow to happen to him. If not then that would be like saying that Mario can't get trap into a painting and that painting into another painting, just because we never saw that happen.
 
It does qualify it's just the note added on his profile needs to be changed in a different way like the note just seem like NLF. It just need to be edited differently. Ppl agree with fate_manipulation it's just the note has to be portrayed in a different term
 
Have you reached an agreement here, and if so, should I unlock any profiles for you?
 
There seems to be an agreement on perhaps removing Fate Manipulation from Mario's and maybe a few others' profiles. But some of the major stuff should be discussed after the Forum move.
 
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