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Thanks for explaining Crazy and Austrian !
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Majin Dante,Mundus and Sparda Upgrades
- Thread starter Austrian-Man-Meat
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This thread is pretty much done.
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so the upgrades won't happen?
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Ummm... a coupe of objections, if I may.
First off, the Devil May Cry wiki itself defines the Human World as Earth, and more specifically as the "domain and home of the humans that exist in their natural state." We can't assume that Mundus is also manipulating the stars and universe beyond, as this is not where humanity resides. If he could merge two entirely seperate realities into one, why would be keep trying to invade the Human World through gates? He could just make the two worlds into one and rule over both like that, hax or no.
That being said, it's also made clear on this wiki that he did create this pocket dimension himself. Though it describing it as "infinite darkness and clouds" most assuredly falls into Hyperbole territory, it does contain what seems to be a planet, complete with Earth-like gravity (which would heavily imply an Earth-like size), where they continue the fight.
All of this being said, Planet level (or maybe "Planet level, possibly higher") still makes the most sense to me, personally.
First off, the Devil May Cry wiki itself defines the Human World as Earth, and more specifically as the "domain and home of the humans that exist in their natural state." We can't assume that Mundus is also manipulating the stars and universe beyond, as this is not where humanity resides. If he could merge two entirely seperate realities into one, why would be keep trying to invade the Human World through gates? He could just make the two worlds into one and rule over both like that, hax or no.
That being said, it's also made clear on this wiki that he did create this pocket dimension himself. Though it describing it as "infinite darkness and clouds" most assuredly falls into Hyperbole territory, it does contain what seems to be a planet, complete with Earth-like gravity (which would heavily imply an Earth-like size), where they continue the fight.
All of this being said, Planet level (or maybe "Planet level, possibly higher") still makes the most sense to me, personally.
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@ThePerpetual I find it hard to believe that Mundus' creations are legitimate because:
1. @3:05 Look closely at Dante's feet and posture, he is obviously standing on something and actually jumps off of it to chase Mundus, except, he's supposed to be in space, a vacuum, where he should be floating.
2. The fact that he's supposed to be in space and he somehow flies into thunder clouds.
3. We never actually see a planet, just what looks like the summit of a volcano with clouds around it.
4. Why would a planet-level guy use puny meteor and lava for a fight in which he is facing the son of his mortal enemy who he is not holding back on whatsoever and is actively trying to kill?
Rather than being an actual portion of a galaxy, I think this is most likely an illusory-dimension.
1. @3:05 Look closely at Dante's feet and posture, he is obviously standing on something and actually jumps off of it to chase Mundus, except, he's supposed to be in space, a vacuum, where he should be floating.
2. The fact that he's supposed to be in space and he somehow flies into thunder clouds.
3. We never actually see a planet, just what looks like the summit of a volcano with clouds around it.
4. Why would a planet-level guy use puny meteor and lava for a fight in which he is facing the son of his mortal enemy who he is not holding back on whatsoever and is actively trying to kill?
Rather than being an actual portion of a galaxy, I think this is most likely an illusory-dimension.
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i still wonder if it is all an illusion then why didn't it just destroy the hall its more like a dream if the dimension is an illusion (ik Dante is standing on something) but still nothing was damaged so i am confused about that part really....
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I think its possible that it may be real or it may not be, going off what Both SpecN and Perpetual said. Since Capcom is Remake happy maybe they will give us a Devil may cry 1 Remaster so we can find out forsure.
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hmmmm i heard rumors of a dmc 5 game so it can give upgrades
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Which video are you referring to? I can't find it in the chain, so I'll link to the one I'm watching.
Point 1: First off, if he actually suddenly got transplanted into a space-like environment then his posture wouldn't suddenly change (unless you count expanding and flying apart due to being in a vacuum, which he obviously doesn't do.) It's not like falling or anything like that, there's no sudden new force acting on him. He is floating, just not moving because he has no reason to. In that sense it's plenty smart, when it never had to be in the first place because fiction in general very rarely follows realistic phenomena in that regard. The "jumping off" part can very easily simply be him making a motion to take flight, but even if he was "jumping off" of something that doesn't prove anything, either, as he "jumps off" of those runic circles he generates all the time in his jumps.
Point 2: But it's not actually space, that much was firmly extablished a long time ago. If it was actual space, then there'd be a bunch of actual stars in the background, not just the illusion of stars. It's merely space-like in that regard.
Point 3: Why does it seem to extend into the horizon, then? Why is it behave similarly to Earth? I get that this is just fiction and that stuff like this happens sometimes, but it hardly seems appropriate to just assume this when there's more evidence pointing to the contrary.
Point 4: And other Planetary, Universal, heck even Multiversal characters in fiction use "puny" swords, guns, fireballs, etc. on a day to day basis in fiction, that's hardly a fitting reason to discout feast of theirs.
Besides, these "meteors" (which the wiki says are energy, anyhow, not actual meteors) aren't even that puny, when you get right down to it, and this "lava" (if it even is normal lava) is both within his pocket dimension (meaning for all we know it could be far hotter than normal lava, or that him getting hurt by it when he consistently displays hilariously better durability feats is gameplay mechanics) and not even being actively used to attack hiim (it's just a part of the battleground.)
Point 5: I never asserted that it was a portion of a galaxy. If I had, I'd most certainly have proposed something higher than Planet level.
Point 1: First off, if he actually suddenly got transplanted into a space-like environment then his posture wouldn't suddenly change (unless you count expanding and flying apart due to being in a vacuum, which he obviously doesn't do.) It's not like falling or anything like that, there's no sudden new force acting on him. He is floating, just not moving because he has no reason to. In that sense it's plenty smart, when it never had to be in the first place because fiction in general very rarely follows realistic phenomena in that regard. The "jumping off" part can very easily simply be him making a motion to take flight, but even if he was "jumping off" of something that doesn't prove anything, either, as he "jumps off" of those runic circles he generates all the time in his jumps.
Point 2: But it's not actually space, that much was firmly extablished a long time ago. If it was actual space, then there'd be a bunch of actual stars in the background, not just the illusion of stars. It's merely space-like in that regard.
Point 3: Why does it seem to extend into the horizon, then? Why is it behave similarly to Earth? I get that this is just fiction and that stuff like this happens sometimes, but it hardly seems appropriate to just assume this when there's more evidence pointing to the contrary.
Point 4: And other Planetary, Universal, heck even Multiversal characters in fiction use "puny" swords, guns, fireballs, etc. on a day to day basis in fiction, that's hardly a fitting reason to discout feast of theirs.
Besides, these "meteors" (which the wiki says are energy, anyhow, not actual meteors) aren't even that puny, when you get right down to it, and this "lava" (if it even is normal lava) is both within his pocket dimension (meaning for all we know it could be far hotter than normal lava, or that him getting hurt by it when he consistently displays hilariously better durability feats is gameplay mechanics) and not even being actively used to attack hiim (it's just a part of the battleground.)
Point 5: I never asserted that it was a portion of a galaxy. If I had, I'd most certainly have proposed something higher than Planet level.
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Those are some really good points Perp, and if you go to the 3:07 Time mark in the video you can see that his feet are kinda hanging too rather than just flat. . if he were standing on something then he would be using just his tipy toes to do it. It would be weird if he was using just his tipy toes to stand, so i think he was floating based off that and what you said . the video i used was the one in this article.
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ThePerpetual said:
Nothing in this argument sounds off at all. And the whole thing about the Earth like gravity+horizon were some thoughts that never sprung into my head at all. And the whole flying into thunder clouds can just be Mundus and Dante entering the planets atmosphere. And the lava + orange skies where a result of the fight.
However going by the basis that Mundus can create planets,demons who house dimensions with parts of the demon world within it (Leviathan) and has stated he can create an infinite number of Trish's I think this would prove the validity of the Stars.
And the stars not appearing in the cloud fight can just be due to the graphical limitations of the PS2. I mean they were not even able to put stars in the background when space was shown. And many times throughout the gameplay sections too.
DMC - Devil May Cry 1 - All Cutscenes in HD
(Check 3:56)
But yeah thats all I have left to say tbh.
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I'm good with planet level
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But if Mundus created just a planet sized poket dimension why would the battle start with stars on the background? The DMC wiki says the human world is just earth, but sinse it's never stated in any place it's probably just assumptions.
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Planet lvl seems good/fair to me too
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The only problem I have with planet level is the fact that it relies on the idea that he created a planet-sized object based on the assumption that it must be a planet because it has Earthlike gravity.
This ignores the fact that gravity in the demon world didn't obey that common sense anyways. Remember DMC3's boss rush room, the one that looked and acted like MC Escher's Relativity?
Yeah.
And don't bring up the fact that "this isn't the demon world, it's a dimension mundus created himself" like that explains everything. In fact, that just makes everything even more suspect.
This ignores the fact that gravity in the demon world didn't obey that common sense anyways. Remember DMC3's boss rush room, the one that looked and acted like MC Escher's Relativity?
Yeah.
And don't bring up the fact that "this isn't the demon world, it's a dimension mundus created himself" like that explains everything. In fact, that just makes everything even more suspect.
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i am just fine with planet really
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Perpetual made some good points. I agree.
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"But if Mundus created just a planet sized poket dimension why would the battle start with stars on the background?"
Because that's a... backdrop created as a part of the pocket dimension? I thought we had established that part already.
At any rate, it's understandable that one would be reluctant to assume that a pocet dimension is any given size normally, so here are some more points I shall present to hopefully validate myself.
For starters, it can be seen on the planet itself that there are clouds extending well into the horizon:
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And that the clouds above are what Sparda pulled both the meteors and the cloud-to-ground lightning from repeatedly. If there's cloud-to-ground lightning, repeatedly, across vast stretches of clouds, then it logically follows that there's a ground for it to be striking towards. Yes, one could argue that since it's his pocket dimension or whatever it doesn't have to obey normal natural laws, but it also cannot simply be assumed that that is the case at any given point in time, especilaly seeing as in this instance it matches up decidedly well with how things work normally. It can even be seen in 7:11 to 7:27 of this video that he's being knocked from way up high down to the ground below over several seconds.
It also seems rather illogical to assume that they're just flying in place or something like that the whole time, given that one can visibly see the clouds flying by you at high speeds.
Additionally, at this point Dante is already faster than Griffon's clound-to-ground lightning strikes (440000 meters/second) by a good margin in base form, and he only recieved a further power-up in his battle against Mundus. On top of this, Dante was fully serious in this particular fight, so it can't really be assumed that he wasn't traveling at his maximum speed. Given that their battle was a long and arduous one, them flying around for minutes on end through this place makes it highly suspect that it the ground below has such tiny, finite dimensions as a single pool of lava and the ground immediately next to it.
Because that's a... backdrop created as a part of the pocket dimension? I thought we had established that part already.
At any rate, it's understandable that one would be reluctant to assume that a pocet dimension is any given size normally, so here are some more points I shall present to hopefully validate myself.
For starters, it can be seen on the planet itself that there are clouds extending well into the horizon:
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And that the clouds above are what Sparda pulled both the meteors and the cloud-to-ground lightning from repeatedly. If there's cloud-to-ground lightning, repeatedly, across vast stretches of clouds, then it logically follows that there's a ground for it to be striking towards. Yes, one could argue that since it's his pocket dimension or whatever it doesn't have to obey normal natural laws, but it also cannot simply be assumed that that is the case at any given point in time, especilaly seeing as in this instance it matches up decidedly well with how things work normally. It can even be seen in 7:11 to 7:27 of this video that he's being knocked from way up high down to the ground below over several seconds.
It also seems rather illogical to assume that they're just flying in place or something like that the whole time, given that one can visibly see the clouds flying by you at high speeds.
Additionally, at this point Dante is already faster than Griffon's clound-to-ground lightning strikes (440000 meters/second) by a good margin in base form, and he only recieved a further power-up in his battle against Mundus. On top of this, Dante was fully serious in this particular fight, so it can't really be assumed that he wasn't traveling at his maximum speed. Given that their battle was a long and arduous one, them flying around for minutes on end through this place makes it highly suspect that it the ground below has such tiny, finite dimensions as a single pool of lava and the ground immediately next to it.
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So, is Planet level Dante a thing or naw?
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Planet level seems feasible to me as well
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Perhaps, perhaps not. I still find it to be the best logical conclusion to draw, but given other arguments in play it may be necessary to impose a less definite rating. Something along the lines of "Unknown. Likely at least 5-B, possibly higher" would be fine by me.
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ThePerpetual said:
thats fine by me
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Hmm. It seems like SpecN is not active in this discussion anymore, but we should probably wait a bit for input. ThePerpetual, would you be willing to rescale the relevant characters if this is accepted?
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eh i now more incline to what perpetual is saying really ^^ThePerpetual said:
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Aye, I can do that. Are we going with the less definite alternative in light of the uncertainty people seem to have surrounding this, or the more simple/definite "Planet level" if this passes?
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@ThePerpetual
Point 1 & 2: Actually, no, his posture would change, the instant change in pressure would make sure that happens, instead of being somehow able to stand upright stiffly like a statue in a vacuum, he's got joints, also, the circles Dante jumps off of are not invisible. Oh, and must I point out how they can talk in a vacuum? In which sound cannot travel? I can make a pass for Mundus since he doesn't have a functioning mouth so he should be talking telepathically, not for Dante, who clearly did move his mouth. So that space is still dubious. And why is it that you consider that the stars are illegitimate but not the "planet"? Look, I know that it's fiction, it doesn't have to be realistic, however, when your argument is built on the idea that Mundus's dimension is somewhat realistic, you admitting that makes things suspicious.
Point 3: So? It could be a spherical layer of clouds, we don't know, maybe it's a platform enveloped by clouds. And behave like Earth in what regard? Having a gravity? The laws in the demon world is already quite effed-up, as Jaften pointed out, there are rooms in the demon world which adheres to Escher's Relativity: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Escher's_Relativity.jpg
And like Jaften also pointed out, just because it wasn't the demon world doesn't explain everything, in fact, because its Mundus personal dimension, which he has complete control over, it makes the situation more dubious.
Point 4: I concede, potency is a thing.
Lemme just point one thing out. Even if Mundus really did create a planet, how does this translate to his attack potency and durability? Elsa created a castle out of ice, I guess she must be large building level in attack potency and durability, right?
Point 1 & 2: Actually, no, his posture would change, the instant change in pressure would make sure that happens, instead of being somehow able to stand upright stiffly like a statue in a vacuum, he's got joints, also, the circles Dante jumps off of are not invisible. Oh, and must I point out how they can talk in a vacuum? In which sound cannot travel? I can make a pass for Mundus since he doesn't have a functioning mouth so he should be talking telepathically, not for Dante, who clearly did move his mouth. So that space is still dubious. And why is it that you consider that the stars are illegitimate but not the "planet"? Look, I know that it's fiction, it doesn't have to be realistic, however, when your argument is built on the idea that Mundus's dimension is somewhat realistic, you admitting that makes things suspicious.
Point 3: So? It could be a spherical layer of clouds, we don't know, maybe it's a platform enveloped by clouds. And behave like Earth in what regard? Having a gravity? The laws in the demon world is already quite effed-up, as Jaften pointed out, there are rooms in the demon world which adheres to Escher's Relativity: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Escher's_Relativity.jpg
And like Jaften also pointed out, just because it wasn't the demon world doesn't explain everything, in fact, because its Mundus personal dimension, which he has complete control over, it makes the situation more dubious.
Point 4: I concede, potency is a thing.
Lemme just point one thing out. Even if Mundus really did create a planet, how does this translate to his attack potency and durability? Elsa created a castle out of ice, I guess she must be large building level in attack potency and durability, right?
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mundus had the power to create the planet and thus he should be able to destroy it....likely.
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Attack Potency: Creation=Destruction unless stated otherwise by a calc.
The real meat of the Issue, Mundus durability should scale from fighting Dante.
The real meat of the Issue, Mundus durability should scale from fighting Dante.
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^ thisTheMightyRegulator said:
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Point 1 & 2: Have you ever perhaps considered that maybe Dante can withstand a vacuum, like a whole lot of fictional characters are able to, without flying apart? Or maybe that as we've pointed out already, that the vacuum in question is, like the stars above it, probably an illusion/backdrop to begin with, as it is not seen again after they take off and the battle begins? That being supported by the very argument of them being able to talk in it you've proposed?
Even if it was a true vacuum, fiction ignores real-world laws on a day-to-day basis, especially fairly over-the-top ones like this. Little things like someone's posture in a maybe, maybe not vacuum do little to disprove other events made apparent by the game.
Think of it this way: have you ever seen a video of an astronaut spacewalking in a spacesuit? See how they can maintain a single posture fairly easily with that spacesuit keeping them pressurized properly? If they can do it, why couldn't a supernatural flying demon-slayer that runs on Rule of Cool logic?
Point 3: I just made an entire post on this point, only a little while ago.
Point 4: Because he's wielding the same sort of power (his demon magic and such) against Dante as his main method of attack? Creating something and destroying something are both displays of raw power.
As far as Elsa, not sure you've seen it yet, but she's already at Island level because of feats better than that. Her power doesn't really scale to her durability because of its nature and how no one really ever traded blows with her, the best durability feat the series has is Hans tanking a snowball packing Building level force.
So in other words, yes, creating a gigantic ice castle could very well be a Large Building level feat.
Even if it was a true vacuum, fiction ignores real-world laws on a day-to-day basis, especially fairly over-the-top ones like this. Little things like someone's posture in a maybe, maybe not vacuum do little to disprove other events made apparent by the game.
Think of it this way: have you ever seen a video of an astronaut spacewalking in a spacesuit? See how they can maintain a single posture fairly easily with that spacesuit keeping them pressurized properly? If they can do it, why couldn't a supernatural flying demon-slayer that runs on Rule of Cool logic?
Point 3: I just made an entire post on this point, only a little while ago.
Point 4: Because he's wielding the same sort of power (his demon magic and such) against Dante as his main method of attack? Creating something and destroying something are both displays of raw power.
As far as Elsa, not sure you've seen it yet, but she's already at Island level because of feats better than that. Her power doesn't really scale to her durability because of its nature and how no one really ever traded blows with her, the best durability feat the series has is Hans tanking a snowball packing Building level force.
So in other words, yes, creating a gigantic ice castle could very well be a Large Building level feat.
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so is this accepted?
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I am not sure. As I have stated several times, I am tired, unfocused, and distracted nowadays, so my judgement isn't as good as it used to be.
I would prefer if SpecN and ThePerpetual can come to an agreement regarding the issue.
I would prefer if SpecN and ThePerpetual can come to an agreement regarding the issue.
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yeah that does seem to be the case...
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yeah i guess that seems to be what it is currently
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We can't assume that their attack potency doesn't scale to their durability in this instance, their was an entire multi-stage boss fight in which they repeatedly traded blows with one another using the whole of their available power.
And again, given the current arguments for higher and lower than what I've proposed, a rating similar to say, Saitama's: with a bare minimum low-end, a likely middle-end, and a possibility of being higher than that: could be implemented.
And again, given the current arguments for higher and lower than what I've proposed, a rating similar to say, Saitama's: with a bare minimum low-end, a likely middle-end, and a possibility of being higher than that: could be implemented.
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