Luffy and Doflamingo upgrade needed

[CinCameron20]

WALL OF TEXT IMMINENT

Both Luffy and Doflamingo are listed at being "7-A, possibly/likely High 7-A". Looking at the AP chart, in order to be High 7-A, the character would need to apply at least a Gigaton of force in an attack.

Looking at the "King Kong Gun" Calc made by Rib78 (which did not calculate the other side of the city that was lifted by the force of the King Kong Gun) (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Rib78/One_Piece_-_King_Kong_Gu), it shows a low end calculation of over 790 megatons of force from Doflamingo being launched into the ground. Had the calculator included the other blocks that were lifted via King Kong gun, the force would have been at least over a single Gigaton.

What this means is that Luffy is undoubtedly High 7-A considering his diminished King Kong Gun that sent Doflamingo into the ground (The punch did not even connect with the ground or even close) Applied at least a single Gigaton of force. Doflamingo's Durability would undoubtedly be Large Mountain Level since he was already injured via Luffy's previous attacks and still being fatigued from Law's Gamma Knife + Counter Shock.

If Luffy's Punch was halted by Doflamingo's Spider thread (Which could casually stop and break apart a large chunk of the Palace http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c769/6.html , and also casually stop a 3rd gear punch from Luffy http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c780/14.html), then there should be no question about Luffy being High 7-A given that it also broke Doflamingo's "God's Execution", which were 16 strands of his Awakened (haki infused) threads (Each strand was capable of shoving Luffy back and, after hitting him repeatedly, could pierce his haki: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/7.html)

Both combatants were injured from their dragged out fight and it left both of them fatigued, affecting Luffy's Punch and Doflamingo's chances of actually getting up after King Kong Gun:

I wont pull up every little attack each of them took, but I will pull up the ones that at least had a moderate affect on the character's stamina.

Luffy (He also suffered mental strain from fighting Bellamy: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c779/18.html): http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c745/10.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c760/13.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c761/8.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c782/12.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c782/20.html (Both Luffy and Doflamingo being caught in Trebol's suicide attack) , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c783/14.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c783/19.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/7.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/12.html

Doflamingo (most of his earlier damage was somewhat mitigated over time due to lower tier Regenerationn via threads, but it hardly helped him from being fatigued): http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c759/17.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c768/15.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c781/11.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c781/19.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c782/10.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c782/20.html (Both Luffy and Doflamingo being caught in Trebol's suicide attack) , (Incoming Gear 4th destruction on Doflamingo's body) http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c784/13.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c784/17.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c785/5.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c785/20.html , (King Kong Gun being the final blow)

They were both fighting for an extended period of time (Earlier in the day: Doflamingo chased and fought Law for several minutes and Luffy fought in against Chinjao Block C. They both engaged eachother briefly, and both fought for several minutes before the Bird Cage even started closing and for over 20 minutes during the time Luffy was in Gear 4th. They continued fighting after both were fatigued to an insane degree (Luffy nearly passing out a couple times: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c786/14.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/13.html and Doflamingo wobbling with each step--demanding the fodder stand aside due to his lack of energy: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c787/11.html)

Both characters are undoubtedly Large Mountain in Durability and Luffy's AP in combat is definitely Large Mountain given that he still pumped out around 1 Gigaton of force despite it being deminished and that Luffy was extremely tired (Passing out after the battle ended)

I can not argue that Doflamingo's Attacks are Large Mountain since he had trouble hurting Luffy while in Gear 4th, but his Bird Cage should at least be Large Mountain in DC since it continued pushing the like of Zoro, Bartolomeo's BARRIER, Fujitora, and many more City Block~City Level+ fighters (Zoro and Fujitora being the only ones at full stamina) while cutting through the Island of Dressrosa in the process. Doflamingo could even remotely control the speed/force of the cage closing. Zoro, Fujitora and many others could not stop it for more than a second: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c788/17.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c788/18.html .

In conclusion, both have at least Large Mountain Durability due to the attacks that they tanked with and without haki and Luffy is undoubtedly Large Mountain level with Gear 4th while Doflamingo is Large Mountain DC with Bird Cage.

Due to the Circumstances in which Gear 4th's King Kong Gun was calculated, how an injured Doflamingo survived it, etc, Luffy's tier should be changed to "7-A, High 7-A with Gear 4th" with "At least Moutai, At least Large Mountain Durability with Gear 4th."

Doflamingo's Tier should be placed as "At least 7-A, High 7-A with Bird Cage" and having "At least Large Mountain Durability, possibly Small Island" (Since he survived at least a Gigaton to the face with no haki imbued to himself (http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/18.html) and the fact that he was already injured + has lower tier Regenerationn).

 

[CinCameron20]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this sounds reasonable, but I would like to wait and see what the rest of the staff think?

 

[CinCameron20]

Very well. I need to go to sleep anyways so I'll be back later during the afternoon tomorrow to see what everyone else thinks.

 

[Antvasima]

Take note that I only think that it may be reasonable to increase Luffy and Doflamingo to "Large Mountain level", not "At least Large Mountain level".

 

[CinCameron20]

Their AP is definitely only shown at being Large Mountain at max via feats, but their Durability should be "At least" Large Mountain considering how many attacks it took from eachother (and other city level~mountain level fighters) throughout the day to actually take them down.

Doflamingo especially has showcased durability that is Large Mountain at a lower end, but should be somewhere between the high end for Large Mountain and the low end for Small Island given that, while fatigued, he could survive somewhere over a Gigaton of force to the face.

Their APs should only be around Large Mountain, but I truly believe that Doflamingo's Durability is higher than his AP since he could take on many G4 strikes on top of Law's own attacks and then survive a likely Large Mountain punch to the face, being at the high end of Large Mountain especially with low tier Regenerationn.

 

[Antvasima]

If they had Island level durability they would likely not have been able to cause significant damage to each other. This would go against the standards used for durability in other profiles.

 

[Kambetal1]

Calc is entirely flawed based on the premise that Doffy fell from rest. Luffy should technically be city level at least, because this calc scales soo many things.

 

[Basilisk1995]

Guys, We have an issue.Narutoforum didn't accept our KKG gun calc (See thread).Before making any changes we first have to be sure about the calc.We might have to downgrade luffy.

 

[CinCameron20]

Catapulting multiple city blocks plus the ground underneath upwards takes quite a lot of force. Even after going through the ground, Doflamingo kept falling at high speeds into the underground port. The calculation has two problems: the time scaled for Doflamingos fall... it should be MUCH shorter (3 seconds falling 50 meters?) and the fact that it left out other factors (as I mentioned: primarily the other side being lifted up but the entire 360 degree radius being affected).

The punch did not connect to the city, Doflamingo was sent falling straight down: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/19.html -- the force was applied to a narrow area and still severely scarred the Island despite the force being diminished (the land around the punch was catapulted upwards and fell underground while the land around was a complete mess in most places: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c791/5.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c791/7.html)

Remember: Doflamingo was sent flying into the ground and the punch was being held back by haki infused thread attacks and defense (Spider Thread and God Thread--the latter which was going at high speeds into Luffy's strike and the former being capable of casually stopping a 3rd gear punch--capable of wounding a steroided Hody Jones and Caeser Clown--both seemingly inbued with haki). Luffy was also fatigued. Saying he is no more than 7-B is ridiculous.

Luffy's Elephant Gatling was already considered at least City level+ despite blood loss since he was likely going to completely destroy the Noah (which is roughly the same size of Fishman Island: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v58/c638/3.html) http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v59/c647/11.html and that he could hold his own against a steroided Hody Jones underwater and defeat him fairly easily with 3rd Gear strikes (a single Elephant Pistol immediately after a 2nd gear Red Hawk was all it took to stop Hody): http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v58/c645/11.html

@Kambetal1 elaborate?

@Antvasima I'm only saying that their durabilities are at least Large Mountain (possibly Small Island, which is still High 7-A and below 4.3 Gigatons) considering it took a lot of damage to pile up before each of them actually fell. Many Large City+ attacks were enough to deal SOME damage to Doflamingo (if he did not casually stop them), but Law's Gamma Knife (which pretty much ignores durability) was not enough to keep Doflamingo down. Afterwards, Luffy pumped out even stronger attacks via Gear 4th, which are likely Mountain level even on low end calcs, but Doflamingo stood up after taking a few direct hits + fighting for well over 20 minutes against the form.

 

[Kambetal1]

Catapulting multiple city blocks plus the ground underneath upwards takes quite a lot of force. Even after going through the ground, Doflamingo kept falling at high speeds into the underground port. The calculation has two problems: the time scaled for Doflamingos fall... it should be MUCH shorter (3 seconds falling 50 meters?) and the fact that it left out other factors (as I mentioned: primarily the other side being lifted up but the entire 360 degree radius being affected).
The punch did not connect to the city, Doflamingo was sent falling straight down: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c790/19.html -- the force was applied to a narrow area and still severely scarred the Island despite the force being diminished (the land around the punch was catapulted upwards and fell underground while the land around was a complete mess in most places: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c791/5.html , http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v69/c791/7.html)

Remember: Doflamingo was sent flying into the ground and the punch was being held back by haki infused thread attacks and defense (Spider Thread and God Thread--the latter which was going at high speeds into Luffy's strike and the former being capable of casually stopping a 3rd gear punch--capable of wounding a steroided Hody Jones and Caeser Clown--both seemingly inbued with haki). Luffy was also fatigued. Saying he is no more than 7-B is ridiculous.

Luffy's Elephant Gatling was already considered at least City level+ despite blood loss since he was likely going to completely destroy the Noah (which is roughly the same size of Fishman Island: http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v58/c638/3.html) http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v59/c647/11.html and that he could hold his own against a steroided Hody Jones underwater and defeat him fairly easily with 3rd Gear strikes (a single Elephant Pistol immediately after a 2nd gear Red Hawk was all it took to stop Hody): http://www.*************/manga/one_piece/v58/c645/11.html

@Kambetal1 elaborate?

@Antvasima I'm only saying that their durabilities are at least Large Mountain (possibly Small Island, which is still High 7-A and below 4.3 Gigatons) considering it took a lot of damage to pile up before each of them actually fell. Many Large City+ attacks were enough to deal SOME damage to Doflamingo (if he did not casually stop them), but Law's Gamma Knife (which pretty much ignores durability) was not enough to keep Doflamingo down. Afterwards, Luffy pumped out even stronger attacks via Gear 4th, which are likely Mountain level even on low end calcs, but Doflamingo stood up after taking a few direct hits + fighting for well over 20 minutes against the form.

Which is the problem because that's hiding the outlier. Since he was hit by 790 megatons of force apparently, he should be travelling at massively hypersonic speeds which makes the timeframe even quicker, making it a planet level feat or close to it. Then we have to UPGRADE IT AGAIN, WHICH MEANS ITS CIRCULAR REASONING, A LOGICAL FALLACY AND THUS WRONG.


We need to downgrade Luffy to at least city level.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hf Well, a single, at best Large Mountain level attack was enough to take Doflamingo down. There is no indicstion that all of their strikes were of this level, and other characters from other series have recurrently fought and exchanged blows for much longer without receiving higher durability than attack potency levels.

@Basilisk & Kambeta I will ask the calculation group about this.

 

[Kambetal1]

@Hf Well, a single, at best Large Mountain level attack was enough to take Doflamingo down. There is no indicstion that all of their strikes were of this level, and other characters from other series have recurrently fought and exchanged blows for much longer without receiving higher durability than attack potency levels.
@Basilisk & Kambeta I will ask the calculation group about this.

But it's very sound logic though. You can understand it right?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok if there is a new calc to be made, then i will look at it on friday most likely, because untill then i wont have enough time to pixel scale and re calculate


if we use the same pixel scaling and the masses, then the time for the whole thing will be less, but as of now i cannot gaurentee if even then i will be able to address it untill friday

 

[Antvasima]

@Kambeta1 I can understand your points, but I would prefer if somebody knowledgeable checks and if necessary re-does the calculation properly.

@TLT1 Okay. Thanks.

 

[CinCameron20]

We also should have a scale for Dressrosa's size unless i've missed it?

@Kambetal1 how is sending Doflamingo into the ground @ MHS (or potentionally higher) speeds Planet busting? It is not even close.

Edit: Doflamingo's weight being thrown at the Island of Dressrosa at MHS+ speeds would have a similar effect if not bust MOST of the Island.

 

[Kambetal1]

We also should have a scale for Dressrosa's size unless i've missed it?
@Kambetal1 how is sending Doflamingo into the ground @ MHS (or potentionally higher) speeds Planet busting? It is not even close.

Because it's a kinetic energy calc.


Since Doffy traveled 41m, MHS = 34090+, so 41/34090 is the timeframe.


1.443/(41/34090) = 1199.8

E=(1/2)I¤ë^2 E=(1/2)*26083357621044610504.8*(1199.8^2)=

= 4 petatons

Okay, I exaggerated planet level but still, you can see it's a ridiculous number (continental KKG? I don't think so), + because of circular reasoning the energy is technically infinite which is obviously wrong.

It should be relativistic though, if 790 megatons is proposed. Which makes it 4 zettatons or small planet level.

 

[Kambetal1]

Actually, I didn't exaggerate anything. Being hit by 790 megatons would make you >>>> MHS, if you're only a few hundred kilograms heavy. Doflamingo would be travelling at relativistic speeds with that kind of force behind him.

 

[CinCameron20]

Going by your equation, that would make Luffy multi-city block level or less with Gear 4th lol.

I'm just going to wait.

 

[Kambetal1]

? By what equation? That's literally the exact same numbers that rib78 used EXCEPT I used the proposed 'MHS' or 'Relativistic' travel speed for Doflamingo.


Multi city block what now?

 

[Kambetal1]

I'd just propose Luffy's freefall, from 14 metres above the spider's web he couldn't have fallen further than that. With 1.69 second timeframe from that, we get 2.2726 GIGATONS as the final number. I think this is the most reasonable thing to do. Then again, Luffy already fell before that making the acceleration higher

 

[CinCameron20]

@Kambetal1 To be fair, I find 2.2726 Gigatons for an injured Luffy--whose attack was diminished by two factors via Doflamingo--to be a little high.

Then again, it is a possible outcome since Spider thread and God Thread were both broken fairly easily and in such a short time span before the punch connected to Doflamingo.

@Ant a Large Mountain punch finishing Doflamingo does not seem surprising since he was mortally wounded--granted I may have been biased in suggesting he could be Small Island Durability. It still seems plausible since he could shake off the regular Gear 4th strikes after all he went though. I wont argue about him being Small Island durability, but since he did survive the strike, should he be Large Mountain in durability?

Of course, I'll be patient and wait for the calculators to do their thing before getting an answer.

 

[Antvasima]

He should have the same durability as his attack potency, much like most other characters.

 

[CinCameron20]

Many characters have been shown to be much like "Glass cannons" where they have immense attack power, but lack the ability to take hits due to a weak body (many mage-like characters, for example). Some characters are capable of taking immense damage due to high physical constitution, but have a moderate or even major lack in artillery (Doflamingo can be a somewhat good example since his Overheat was his strongest attack outside of his Awakening and Birdcage, but his Awakened threads did not have a good AP as they did little damage to Luffy when striking him back and forth) (A heavily armored machine or tank could also be an example).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier. It is common in fiction with characters that fight for hours or longer, to considerably greater extremes than Luffy and Doflamingo, and we still do not tend to rate them as higher in durability than Attack Potency, as this would logically mean that they could barely harm each other at all, at best.

Please permanently drop this topic. I have other things to do. Thank you.

 

[CinCameron20]

Erm... okay I guess.

 

[Illuminati478]

The original calc's low end is fine as it is without the changes in speed (what was the talk about relativistic impact speed for doflamingo? Thats obviously won't be accepted). The high end was also reasonable, what is the main issue here? If somone can summerize it in a sentance or two that will be helpful...

 

[Basilisk1995]

The original calc's low end is fine as it is without the changes in speed (what was the talk about relativistic impact speed for doflamingo? Thats obviously won't be accepted). The high end was also reasonable, what is the main issue here? If somone can summerize it in a sentance or two that will be helpful...

Look at this for details.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1041649

Simply put he messed up the part where he calculated the timeframe.To get the timeframe he got the distance dofla fell(41.845m its ok).But from this distance he got the timeframe by assuming that doflamingo was freefalling which obviously is not the case.He just got punched by luffy.(790 megatons according to that calc).Assuming dofla weights 70 kg use .5mv^2 and dofla's falling speed would be MHS+ and give a much lower timeframe and if you plug in this lower timeframe in the same calc you will get a continent level result (see Kambetal's comment above).And circularly you can get a new lower timeframe and get higher result.This is a logical loophole from where you will never get out and thus wrong.And this is how he hid the outlier, by using freefall he got a seemingly acceptable result.

In previous discussions you said basic physics shouldn't be violated because of plot.Here, its common sense that when someone is hitting you with gigaton energy you will fall at very high speed.Just because it may look like he was freefalling you can't use that in calc (actually in the scan you can see dofla hit the ground at much higher speed than freefalling).So, the method of the calculation is wrong.

 

[Kambetal1]

The original calc's low end is fine as it is without the changes in speed (what was the talk about relativistic impact speed for doflamingo? Thats obviously won't be accepted). The high end was also reasonable, what is the main issue here? If somone can summerize it in a sentance or two that will be helpful...

Correct. Because if relativistic Doflamingo isn't flying, neither is the calc itself because that's exactly how fast Doflamingo was getting shot at.

 

[Illuminati478]

wait... as far as i remember he was scaling the timeframe that it took doflamingo to bounce from the ground back up after he got, if it was otherwise i wouldn't have accepted it for a very different reason. are you sure the time frame measured was from before hit the ground? if it really is from before then its realy not ok. because it has no connection to the rise of the rocks anyway...

 

[Antvasima]

You can check here if you wish.

 

[Illuminati478]

ok now i get it..i think Rib78 assumed that after doflamingo hit some rocks he lost his velocity, well is someone who follows one piece more religiously than i do can tell me if by "hitting the rocks" Rib78 meant hitting the ground and bouncing back up from elastic force from the ground, or if by "hitting the rocks" Rib78 means doflamingo hits something on his way down? in short does the birds eye scan comes before doflamingo hits the ground or after?

 

[Basilisk1995]

"Doflamingo didn't bounce back from the ground".Or so it looks like to me.The bird eye scan is like looking from the sky to the ground seeing doflamingo lying beaten.Its not because he bounced up.He hit rock or ground and went that much into the ground.The black thing you see is a hole in the ground.And the time it took him to go into the hole after hitting the ground is the timeframe in which the rocks rose.See the chapters here. and here.

Now Rib78 himself said this timeframe was wrong and Doflamingo was going down actually at very high speed.I qoute from his calc

""we will assume that crashing into the rocks removed all of his downward velocity and he is falling from rest (this isn't true, he kept going at high speeds but this gives us a nice low end) to determine a timeframe""

So Rib78 also agrees dofla was going in at much higher speed.Which will give you a much lower timeframe.As Dofla just got hit by gigaton energy he would hit the ground with at least MHS+ speed and the ground would slow him down but not like freefalling.Which will give you a much higher value than just 1.5 gigaton.[and the result would go up circularly].And thus the result would much fall into the outlier category.The reason is simple when you are scaling that many things in a calc something is bound to go wrong and cause phenomena similar to calc staking[unintentional] and give insanely high result.

 

[Basilisk1995]

Lemme explain with maths.Say his result is right. Luffy actually punched doffy at 797 megaton.Thats like 3.33e+18 j.Assuming dofla weights 70 kg dofla should mathematically be launched at nead light speed.But when guy punches madara at supposedly small planetary energy he doesnt get launched at all let along at light speed.This is the most violated law of physics in fiction.So lets drop it and say dofla got launched at a speed so that luffy couldn't catch him after hiting him and appear behind him (its very much logical given how the entire fight happened).Which would be around mach 500.

So Dofla hits the ground at mach 500.Lets say the impact reduces his speed 99%(obviously not) then he woud still have like 5 mach with that speed 0.025s to go into that distance.Which is around 100 times lower timeframe than freefalling.Which will give 100 times higher angular velocity and thus 10000 times higher energy around 8 terato.See, how insanely wrong it is to assume dofla was freefalling after he hit the ground.

 

[Illuminati478]

Well then, after rechecking it thouroghly i agree with what has been said, i misunderstood it as being the time frame of doflamingo bouncing up from the ground. Since such an order of events isn't in the nerative, and the other assumption is indeed wrong and admitted to be so by the calcer himself, we cannot accept the result.

My apoligies

Edit: while trying to keep the rate of unintentional offense taken to a minimum, I will say this; I do not require a math lesson of problems I already understood from your first post on the issue, thanks.

 

[Basilisk1995]

Well then, after rechecking it thouroghly i agree with what has been said, i misunderstood it as being the time frame of doflamingo bouncing up from the ground. Since such an order of events isn't in the nerative, and the other assumption is indeed wrong and admitted to be so by the calcer himself, we cannot accept the result.
My apoligies

Thanks.So we now have to discuss what to do with Luffy,Doffy,Law and Sabo's profile.

 

[Illuminati478]

back to be powerscaled from Zoro's, not much else there...

 

[Basilisk1995]

back to be powerscaled from Zoro's, not much else there...

Zoro's feats are city level.Actually zoro was also powerscaled to mountain level from luffy's calc.

 

[Antvasima]

I would much prefer if somebody could recalculate Luffy's feat properly instead.

 

[Basilisk1995]

@Illuminati478

""Edit: while trying to keep the rate of unintentional offense taken to a minimum, I will say this; I do not require a math lesson of problems I already understood from your first post on the issue, thanks.""

Sorry if you got offended.I was just trying to make myself clear.