Lucci CRT 3: The Payback War

[DaMonkeMan]

Spoiler: Long tangent over a cat and a god rumbling

Alright, I'm gonna get straight to the point.
Lucci's profile says he scales to G5 Luffy, is Yonko level, Class P LS, all that jazz. We all know this by now.
I aim to remove this.
He currently scales due to clashing with Luffy and knocking him back.
This was apparently enough for us to make him fully scale to Luffy's level, which is unfathomably nonsensical and dumb, for these reasons:
One: Sakazuki had specifically said that Lucci can not, and should not, fight Luffy, until Kizaru and Saturn arrived.
This means that Sakazuki and the others know how powerful Lucci is, yet they still believe that he should not fight Luffy without Kizaru, Saturn, and their fleet's help.
If Lucci was strong enough to fight on equal footing with Luffy, then wouldn't they just tell him to go ahead since he's equal to him anyway?
There's also Stussy and Kaku claiming the Seraphim have the advantage against them despite mr god tier Yonko level king Awakened Lucci being on their side at the moment.
Plus the fact that, y'know, LUCCI LITERALLY WASN'T ABLE TO REACT TO LUFFY AT ALL.
Btw, I don't see how he scales in durability. In most of, if not all, the scans I posted, he's constantly bleeding and getting knocked away by Luffy.
And his Class P LS makes 0 sense.
Why is he scaling to Luffy lifting a fist the size of an island against someone who he found considerably more threatening than Lucci?
Though, of course, I already proved how that clash was an outlier, but just in case anyone isn't convinced it's an outlier, can we at the very least remove his LS? Unless someone can pull up some holy grail of evidence showing that Luffy suddenly thought of Lucci as an opponent worth pulling all the stops for ( he didn't even use Advanced Haki on him, btw, so I don't see how that would make sense but I guess I'm just out of my mind ), that needs to be removed.
And that's about it. I'll add more evidence later on, but that is the gist of it.

TLDR: Considering Lucci failed to keep up with Luffy or take his attacks well, outside of that clash, I don't believe that he's relative/comparable to him at all.
I'm not sure what his new scaling would be, that can be discussed later, but this needs to go man.
Agree: @Shadyboi0 @Kachon123 @Sus | @ByAsura @Eseseso @Ped2018 @Darkvie123 (agree with a downscale and/or Kachon's justifications/proposals), @ZKillerz ( Agrees with LS removal, but Dura should still scale somewhat )
Disagree: KingTempest @RoronoaxRobin @CloverDragon03 @Eminiteable (Via KT's reasons)
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Kachon123]

Following

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Nobody bother pinging me for this shit I'm gonna be P ranking world 3 of Pizza Tower for about an hour

 

[Eseseso]

Only thing I agree with is removing Lucci's class P LS.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Ok.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Agree

 

[Ped2018]

Only thing I agree with is removing Lucci's class P LS.

Luffy only has class P with G5, right? Because if so then i agree with removing it too, and obviously disagree with the rest.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

One agrees with all of it, two agree with Class P being removed.
Looking good for now.

 

[ByAsura]

I'd say a lot of the evidence you provided is out of context and kind of irrelevant, but it doesn't really matter. I agree with them not being 1:1, especially in speed, and removing Class P.

He'd just scale above High 6-A base Luffy.

Btw, I don't see how he scales in durability. In most of, if not all, the scans I posted, he's constantly bleeding and getting knocked away by Luffy.

People bleed while fighting equal characters in One Piece. The fact is, Lucci took a **** ton of attacks from Luffy (even when he was maxing out his stretchy powers) and wasn't obliterated. He definitely scales, just not 1:1.

You're talking about characters who are over 225x baseline High 6-A.

Unless Luffy was using 0.45% of his power for some reason, this means very little in overall scaling.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, but thank you very much for your input.
So I should put you down as agreeing with them not being equal/relative, specifically in speed and LS?
And also, "a **** ton of attacks" is just 3 attacks. And after said 3 attacks, he got knocked out.
When you fail to hit someone multiple times, fail to react to them multiple times, and bleed from almost every hit and get knocked into wall each time, it's hard to scale you to that person.
At most he downscales and that's being generous.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Also, how would he scale above Base Luffy?
I don't care if he does, but why would he?

 

[Eseseso]

Speed wise, his normal Awakened downscales from matching one clash with Luffy but otherwise being badly overwhelmed.

With Kami Sori he flat out dodged a G5 attack point-blank.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Speed wise, his normal Awakened downscales from matching one clash with Luffy but otherwise being badly overwhelmed.

This is a widely inconsistent feat.

With Kami Sori he flat out dodged a G5 attack point-blank.

Eh.. Luffy was a pretty big target there and he was tens of feet away from Lucci. Lucci reacting to that isn't too crazy. We also see him get blitzed immediately after that anyway.

 

[Kachon123]

While I do agree that the wording on Lucci's page is very poorly worded, making it seem as though he's equal to Buso Gear 5 Luffy and at his fastest, faster than Gear 5 Luffy, I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't scale at all.

It should be noted that the Gear 5 Luffy in Egghead and the Gear 5 on Onigashima should not be compared at all.

Despite Luffy's light-hearted appearance, he was extremely serious and fighting for his life against Kaidou. Onishashima was going to drop on top of Wano and time was running out extremeley quickly. Kaidou was still perfectly keeping up with him in this form and I think it's fair to say that Luffy was going all out without restraints.

In contrast, in Egghead, Luffy we see that in his original clash with Lucci, he was not going all out, or even close to that. In the following sequences, we see Lucci leak blood and have his eyes rolled back from a single non-Buso Gum Gum Mole. Lucci also got sent flying and had his neck cracked by a Gum Gum White Whip.

As for speed, for some reason we have base Lucci comparable in speed to Gear 5 Luffy when he got done like this. Enough said.

On the same vein, Lucci's Soru, which is supposedly faster than Gear 5 Luffy got completely intercepted by Gear 5 Luffy mid-attack. Lucci jumping out of the way before Luffy even attacked isn't speed. That's him reacting to a giant ass face appearing out of nowhere and jumping up in retaliation.

Sentomaru was able to react to Lucci's Soru reacted to not ONCE, but TWICE. The same Sentomaru who is inferior to the Seraphim, who got outsped by BASE KAKU.

Base Kaku > Gear 5 Luffy now? Absolutely not.




As for new wording, I think this is how it should look:

AP:

Multi-Continent level with Awakening (Although significantly inferior, he was capable of clashing with a suppressed Gear 5 Luffy)

Speed:

FTL with Awakening (Was able to react to attacks from a suppressed Gear 5 Luffy, although he got blitzed on several occasions when Luffy took him slightly more seriously), higher with Awakened Kamisori (Despite having been intercepted mid-movement, he was able to react to and avoid an attack from Gear 5 Luffy)

Durability:

Multi-Continent level with Awakening (Although he was able to take hits from a suppressed Gear 5 Luffy, he found himself losing consciousness and sustained a subsequent neck injury), higher with Busōshoku Haki (Took a strike from Gear 5 Luffy)

Lifting Strength:

At least Class T, likely far higher with Awakening (Despite being inferior to him, was able to clash with a suppressed Gear 5 Luffy, which should make him at least superior to Base Luffy)

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, but thank you very much for your input.

I'm saying he should downscale to High 6-A regardless, since base Luffy alone is 225x baseline.

So I should put you down as agreeing with them not being equal/relative, specifically in speed and LS?

Yes.

And also, "a **** ton of attacks" is just 3 attacks. And after said 3 attacks, he got knocked out.

Including attacks that failed to do any real damage until the Booming White Rocket, unless you're confusing those leopard spots in the second panels for blood.

When you fail to hit someone multiple times, fail to react to them multiple times, and bleed from almost every hit and get knocked into wall each time, it's hard to scale you to that person.

It's really not.

Also, how would he scale above Base Luffy?
I don't care if he does, but why would he?

I mispoke, I meant to say he's not hundreds of times below base Luffy.

 

[ByAsura]

As for new wording, I think this is how it should look:

I wouldn't say suppressed as much as not fully utilising his elastic powers during the clash.

Also, base Luffy is Class T.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm saying he should downscale to High 6-A regardless, since base Luffy alone is 225x baseline.

Yes.

Okay.

Including attacks that failed to do any real damage until the Booming White Rocket, unless you're confusing those leopard spots in the second panels for blood.

"Any real damage"
No, they did damage. Him enduring it is nice, but we already know Awakened Zoans have absurd endurance/recovery.
At most the first one didn't really do anything, but it still bent his face in.

I mispoke, I meant to say he's not hundreds of times below base Luffy.

Alright.

 

[Eseseso]

While I do agree that the wording on Lucci's page is very poorly worded, making it seem as though he's equal to Buso Gear 5 Luffy and at his fastest, faster than Gear 5 Luffy, I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't scale at all.

It should be noted that the Gear 5 Luffy in Egghead and the Gear 5 on Onigashima should not be compared at all.

Despite Luffy's light-hearted appearance, he was extremely serious and fighting for his life against Kaidou. Onishashima was going to drop on top of Wano and time was running out extremeley quickly. Kaidou was still perfectly keeping up with him in this form and I think it's fair to say that Luffy was going all out without restraints.

In contrast, in Egghead, Luffy we see that in his original clash with Lucci, he was not going all out, or even close to that. In the following sequences, we see Lucci leak blood and have his eyes rolled back from a single non-Buso Gum Gum Mole. Lucci also got sent flying and had his neck cracked by a Gum Gum White Whip.

Tbf, him cracking his neck seems like how in DBZ people cracked their neck before a fight. No real muscle or bone being broken.

Rest makes sense.

As for new wording, I think this is how it should look:

AP:

Agree.

Speed:

Agree.

Durability:

Ok, I guess.

Lifting Strength:

Why is he class P? Base Luffy is only Class T.

But the actual scaling looks good.

 

[Kachon123]

Also, base Luffy is Class T.

'At least Class T, likely far higher' could work then.

 

[ByAsura]

You see like 3 drops of blood in the first panel, and that's about it. Other than that, we have no indication that he was damaged, especially in the panels I gave where no blood or scratches are shown.

As for bending his face in, doesn't that happen all the time in OP anyway as an art style thing?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

While I do agree that the wording on Lucci's page is very poorly worded, making it seem as though he's equal to Buso Gear 5 Luffy and at his fastest, faster than Gear 5 Luffy, I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't scale at all.

It should be noted that the Gear 5 Luffy in Egghead and the Gear 5 on Onigashima should not be compared at all.

Despite Luffy's light-hearted appearance, he was extremely serious and fighting for his life against Kaidou. Onishashima was going to drop on top of Wano and time was running out extremeley quickly. Kaidou was still perfectly keeping up with him in this form and I think it's fair to say that Luffy was going all out without restraints.

In contrast, in Egghead, Luffy we see that in his original clash with Lucci, he was not going all out, or even close to that. In the following sequences, we see Lucci leak blood and have his eyes rolled back from a single non-Buso Gum Gum Mole. Lucci also got sent flying and had his neck cracked by a Gum Gum White Whip.

As for speed, for some reason we have base Lucci comparable in speed to Gear 5 Luffy when he got done like this. Enough said.

On the same vein, Lucci's Soru, which is supposedly faster than Gear 5 Luffy got completely intercepted by Gear 5 Luffy mid-attack. Lucci jumping out of the way before Luffy even attacked isn't speed. That's him reacting to a giant ass face appearing out of nowhere and jumping up in retaliation.

Sentomaru was able to react to Lucci's Soru reacted to not ONCE, but TWICE. The same Sentomaru who is inferior to the Seraphim, who got outsped by BASE KAKU.

Base Kaku > Gear 5 Luffy now? Absolutely not.




As for new wording, I think this is how it should look:

AP:



Speed:



Durability:



Lifting Strength:

Agree with everything except the new proposals for the wording, sorry.

 

[Kachon123]

Tbf, him cracking his neck seems like how in DBZ people cracked their neck before a fight. No real muscle or bone being broken.

I disagree with you since the impact that caused the injury was aimed directly at his head:

 

[Nierre]

Agree with everything except the new proposals for the wording, sorry.

lol.


Kachon's proposal makes sense to me.

 

[Eseseso]

I disagree with you since the impact that caused the injury was aimed directly at his head:

That makes sense then.

Though in defense of Lucci's durability he was caught completely off guard when this happened.

 

[Kachon123]

As for bending his face in, doesn't that happen all the time in OP anyway?

That's likely the effect of Luffy's fruit awakening. Similar to how he was able to pull of Kaidou's skin like this:

 

[DaMonkeMan]

You see like 3 drops of blood in the first panel, and that's about it. Other than that, we have no indication that he was damaged, especially in the panels I gave where no blood or scratches are shown.

As for bending his face in, doesn't that happen all the time in OP anyway?

Again they have amped recovery.
Keep in mind Luffy was burnt black by Kaidou's Bolo Breath and was instantly fine afterwards.
Do we not scale Kaidou to him though?

 

[Kachon123]

Though in defense of Lucci's durability he was caught completely off guard when this happened.

Being on or off-guard only determines whether you can brace yourself or not. The fact that the raw durability of Lucci's bones was unable to withstand the force of Luffy's attack, causing them to break just shows that Lucci is inferior to Luffy here.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That makes sense then.

Though in defense of Lucci's durability he was caught completely off guard when this happened.

Him being off guard doesn't lower his durability.
Before you bring up me saying Queen was off guard against Sanji in a whataboutism moment, I usually use that for stuff like speed scaling and what not, and even then it's kind of a different scenario.

lol.


Kachon's proposal makes sense to me.

That's nice.

 

[ByAsura]

Again they have amped recovery.
Keep in mind Luffy was burnt black by Kaidou's Bolo Breath and was instantly fine afterwards.
Do we not scale Kaidou to him though?

Again, Lucci didn't bleed in the first place. Recovery doesn't really matter here, and it's still shown to take more than two panels during Impel Down.

How does that help your point? You're the one who's saying that Lucci shouldn't scale to G5, and now you're saying people who get damaged similarly do scale.

Also, Lucci wasn't even defending his face with Hakai against Luffy's Hakai.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Okay so let me just be sure.
Who agrees with the OP completely?
Who agrees with specific assets like removing the speed and LS scaling?
And who is neutral?
So far.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree at least with removing Class P, and altering the wording to get a general downgrade for speed, dura and AP.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Again, Lucci didn't bleed in the first place.

How does that help your point? You're the one who's saying that Lucci shouldn't scale to G5.

He did bleed.
We literally see blood drip down his face in the first panel.
His neck crack in the second.
And the third hit makes him cough blood and knocks him out immediately.
So I suppose you're just saying that Lucci wasn't harmed at all by the other attacks and just got one shot by Luffy?
That's very helpful to your argument.

 

[ByAsura]

No we don't. We see a few tiny drops. Are you confusing his beard for blood or something?

Where? Once again, the black shit near the bottom of his mouth and neck is just facial hair and leopard spots.

It did make him cough blood and almost pass out, but it wasn't a normal attack.

I literally made the distinction in my first argument.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

No we don't. We see a few tiny drops. Are you confusing his beard for blood or something?

Where?

It did make him cough blood and almost pass out, but it wasn't a normal attack.

I literally made the distinction in my first argument.

I'm not talking about the first panel ( though that cracked his neck ), I'm talking about the 3rd.
Also wdym " almost pass out "? He was completely knocked out.

 

[ByAsura]

My third panel is this. So what are you on about?

His eyes were slightly open a few panels later, so I thought he was almost knocked out.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

My third panel is this. So what are you on about?

Exactly.
There's a bit of blood, he's white eyed and gets knocked away.

 

[ZKillerz]

Spoiler: Long tangent over a cat and a god rumbling

Alright, I'm gonna get straight to the point.
Lucci's profile says he scales to G5 Luffy, is Yonko level, Class P LS, all that jazz. We all know this by now.
I aim to remove this.
He currently scales due to clashing with Luffy and knocking him back.
This was apparently enough for us to make him fully scale to Luffy's level, which is unfathomably nonsensical and dumb, for these reasons:
One: Sakazuki had specifically said that Lucci can not, and should not, fight Luffy, until Kizaru and Saturn arrived.
This means that Sakazuki and the others know how powerful Lucci is, yet they still believe that he should not fight Luffy without Kizaru, Saturn, and their fleet's help.
If Lucci was strong enough to fight on equal footing with Luffy, then wouldn't they just tell him to go ahead since he's equal to him anyway?
There's also Stussy and Kaku claiming the Seraphim have the advantage against them despite mr god tier Yonko level king Awakened Lucci being on their side at the moment.
Plus the fact that, y'know, LUCCI LITERALLY WASN'T ABLE TO REACT TO LUFFY AT ALL.
Btw, I don't see how he scales in durability. In most of, if not all, the scans I posted, he's constantly bleeding and getting knocked away by Luffy.
And his Class P LS makes 0 sense.
Why is he scaling to Luffy lifting a fist the size of an island against someone who he found considerably more threatening than Lucci?
Though, of course, I already proved how that clash was an outlier, but just in case anyone isn't convinced it's an outlier, can we at the very least remove his LS? Unless someone can pull up some holy grail of evidence showing that Luffy suddenly thought of Lucci as an opponent worth pulling all the stops for ( he didn't even use Advanced Haki on him, btw, so I don't see how that would make sense but I guess I'm just out of my mind ), that needs to be removed.
And that's about it. I'll add more evidence later on, but that is the gist of it.

TLDR: Considering Lucci failed to keep up with Luffy or take his attacks well, outside of that clash, I don't believe that he's relative/comparable to him at all.
I'm not sure what his new scaling would be, that can be discussed later, but this needs to go man.
Agree: @Shadyboi0 @ByAsura @Kachon123 | @Eseseso @Ped2018 ( with the Class P LS being removed )
Disagree:
Neutral:

I agree with removing his Ls, but I think his durability should still scale

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Okay. I'll add you to the OP whenever I feel like it. Thanks for the input.

 

[ZKillerz]

Okay. I'll add you to the OP whenever I feel like it. Thanks for the input.

what does op mean?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

what does op mean?

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