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Lord of the Rings revisions
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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So regarding the 6-B downgrades what we have right now I believe is the City level+ feat of shaking Mordor (someone can make more exact measurements with the Mordor map if they want but using Wikipedia's estimations are fine imo) and the Small City level+ feat of Mount Doom erupting. Would they be fine to apply?
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Just had a go at Sauron's storm Hellbeast1 brought up earlier. Got 7-A: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Sauron_makes_a_big_storm
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Sauron's scaling is being discussed, and I'll cover him in detail later.
His weakened state, however, is more contentious than his other states, as we know it's stronger than any being in Middle Earth (as even Tom Bombadil was lesser, being the last to fall), but Gandalf the White was demonstrated to be somewhat comparable to him, and as an embodied Istari (albeit one with far looser restrictions), Gandalf should not be comparable to his Maiar self, who himself is currently being debated.
Thus it's likely several Maiar (and those on their level) characters could scale to the feat, we just need to work out who.
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Moreover, can we calc Uinen's feat of being present in all the surface waters of Arda? Being a past version of modern earth, there should be a somewhat comparable amount of surface water to the modern earth.
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Honestly they could just go back to 4-C, or even a high 4-C for making constellations, tough making the stars in the universe doesnt count since its unspecified how long it took for varda to create all the other stars.
“she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars. Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.”
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Chapter 3
Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
“she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars. Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.”
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The Silmarillion
Chapter 3
Chapter 3
Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
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Tadbit late to the scene, as we've already discussed the Valar. We're putting them at 3B, and 3A for the in Eä state, and some variation of High 3A, likely Low 2C, Likely Low 2C, or just flat out Low 2C, depending on their scaling, for the pre-Eä state. You can find why earlier in the thread.
The Balrogs haven't been discussed persay, but we likely won't scale them that high, as Ungoliant has a track record of fleeing from weaker foes due to stern resistance, and their general showings are much lower.
The abilities are something that will probably be discussed later, but this isn't necessarily true as Elves can do some things the Ainur can't, as Fëanor for instance, could craft things no one else could.
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Would the weaker characters like Gandalf the Grey be able to downscale or should we try to find feats of their own?
Plus Sauron's current profile states his manifestation "should be more powerful than Ancalagon the Black" who has a High 7-A feat, should that scaling still remain? (edit: didn't see that it was discussed a bit above, I guess the scaling will have to be sorted out)
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How do you calc that? Like a Large Size Calculation?
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I think he was at least weary of gandalf, he fled from him at dul guldur because he didn’t want to be discovered.
a few balrogs were even able to wound feanor.
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Finding the pressure of the ocean.
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Balrogs are actually a perfect example of how Elves can match the embodied Ainur. Fëanor personally fought multiple Balrogs at once, and he was not an exception, as powerful Elf lords have matched Ainur. Fingon personally fought Gothmog to a stalemate until he was attacked from behind, Ecthelion slayed Gothmog (albeit with luck), Glorfindel outright defeated a Balrog, and was said to have become a peer of the Maiar after resurrecting, and he was implied to yet be inferior to Galadriel, and possibly Gil-Galad durinf the Third Age.
Ungoliant was after the Silmarils, but she's been demonstrated to be a rather cowardly character. It must be understood that the texts do not actually imply the Balrogs did much damage, as whilst they burned her webs, no mention is made of damage to her body. Moreover, she later refused to enter Doriath due to Melian's protection, despite her logically being far stronger (Melian is absolutely not on par with Morgoth, who was still the strongest at this point).
Moreover your argument of putting the Balrogs as comparable to Morgoth just causes many issues, since characters like Glorfindel, Gandalf the Grey, and Ecthelion becomes stronger than 90% of the Valar, since Morgoth scales above basically all of them, except possibly Manwë (who varies between being his equal to second) and Tulkas in regards to physical power.
Ungoliant was after the Silmarils, but she's been demonstrated to be a rather cowardly character. It must be understood that the texts do not actually imply the Balrogs did much damage, as whilst they burned her webs, no mention is made of damage to her body. Moreover, she later refused to enter Doriath due to Melian's protection, despite her logically being far stronger (Melian is absolutely not on par with Morgoth, who was still the strongest at this point).
Moreover your argument of putting the Balrogs as comparable to Morgoth just causes many issues, since characters like Glorfindel, Gandalf the Grey, and Ecthelion becomes stronger than 90% of the Valar, since Morgoth scales above basically all of them, except possibly Manwë (who varies between being his equal to second) and Tulkas in regards to physical power.
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The scaling is being discussed, but Gandalf the Grey should pretty much scale to all the Maiar, as pretty much all the Maiar scale above Balrogs, of which Gandalf the Grey fought evenly with one of their number. Even the most benign named Maiar we have, Tilion, defeated spirits which were considered "powerful" in Morgoth's army, making him likely scale to at least a normal Balrog.
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Feanor does scale to Fingolfin, who scales to Morgoth, however, this was a far diminished Morgoth, with the event coming centuries after the rise of the Sun and Moon, during which it was mentioned Morgoth had been wasting his power on corrupting the material world (also supported by surrounding texts by NOME) to the extent he could do little to directly oppose Arien (whether due to distance or inferiority matters not here).
Thus even if the Balrogs scale to Feanor, this means nothing since Feanor scales to a weakened Morgoth, and even then only loosely, as Fingolfin appeared to be in a somewhat 'amped' state, given the descriptions of how fearful he was and the comparisons to Orome (although this is likely just flowery descriptions of his anger).
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I ask you to read the thread's prior discussions. A lot of what we're discussing has already been detailed with evidence. I ask that you read them first, and then come to make your points as right now, this discussion is just derailing.
Also I never said he was inferior to Arien, I acknowledged the possibility is there in brackets, but I did not outright claim she was, and if you read the earlier discussions, you would know my stance on Arien compared to the weakened Morgoth.
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I don’t see what your referring to from earlier threads, there is some scaling, but nothing has haplened yet.
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I have literally quoted several sources to justify the points we were discussing earlier, all of what we discuss has been covered.
Again, I ask you to read the earlier discussions thoroughly.
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Sorry for not responding.
Melians quote is pretty straightforward
“Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lórien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment. It is told that the Valar would leave their works, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lórien. Nightingales went always with her, and she taught them their song; and she loved the deep shadows of the great trees. She was akin before the World was made to Yavanna herself; and in that time when the Quendi awoke beside the waters of Cuiviénen she departed from Valinor and came to the Hither Lands, and there she filled the silence of Middle-earth before the dawn with her voice and the voices of her birds.”
Great catch about Sauron scaling to Ancalagon, I've forgotten about that. That is important because the Host of the Valar were initially winning against Morgoths forces during the War of Wrath, which included Balrogs and Eönwë. Morgoth then unleashed Ancalagon the Black and the host of the Winged Dragons and, turning the tide of the war very swiftly and beating back the Host.
It required Earandil whilst riding on Vingilot, a ship blessed by either Manwë or the entire Valar, and using a Silmaril to defeat Ancalagon and the host whioe also being backed up by all the Eagles including Thorondor, whom was powerful enough to scar Morgoths face.
Admittedly it's vague since we don't know for sure how much weight Ancalagon was pulling during the War, but his body crushed the 3 mountains of Thangorodrim which I suggest looking into because they could be larger than 35,000 feet and I found this passage:
"he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-Earth...no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. In his fall the Towers of Thangorodrim were thrown down the destruction of Thangorodrim by the fall of Ancalagon. In his fall Thangorodrim was broken. In the Great Battle and the tumults of the fall of Thangorodrim there were mighty convulsions in the earth, and Beleriand was broken and laid waste...many lands sank beneath the waters of the Great Sea."
Ancalagons fall contributed in the destruction of Beleriend alongside the Great Battle, presumably the war of Wrath and events such as Eönwë beating Morgoth.
Sauron in his prime would at least be around this lvl of power considering his One Ring can't be destroyed by Ancalagon, possibly putting him above Eönwë? Sauron also has a statement that he destroyed hills or some such, which can mean whole countries or so I've heard.
Ossë and Uinen might need some research, but I feel they could be amongst the greatest since in older writings Ossë was even meant to be a Valar whilst Uinen in the current Silmarillion is honored as highly as one.
Melians quote is pretty straightforward
“Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lórien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment. It is told that the Valar would leave their works, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lórien. Nightingales went always with her, and she taught them their song; and she loved the deep shadows of the great trees. She was akin before the World was made to Yavanna herself; and in that time when the Quendi awoke beside the waters of Cuiviénen she departed from Valinor and came to the Hither Lands, and there she filled the silence of Middle-earth before the dawn with her voice and the voices of her birds.”
Great catch about Sauron scaling to Ancalagon, I've forgotten about that. That is important because the Host of the Valar were initially winning against Morgoths forces during the War of Wrath, which included Balrogs and Eönwë. Morgoth then unleashed Ancalagon the Black and the host of the Winged Dragons and, turning the tide of the war very swiftly and beating back the Host.
It required Earandil whilst riding on Vingilot, a ship blessed by either Manwë or the entire Valar, and using a Silmaril to defeat Ancalagon and the host whioe also being backed up by all the Eagles including Thorondor, whom was powerful enough to scar Morgoths face.
Admittedly it's vague since we don't know for sure how much weight Ancalagon was pulling during the War, but his body crushed the 3 mountains of Thangorodrim which I suggest looking into because they could be larger than 35,000 feet and I found this passage:
"he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-Earth...no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. In his fall the Towers of Thangorodrim were thrown down the destruction of Thangorodrim by the fall of Ancalagon. In his fall Thangorodrim was broken. In the Great Battle and the tumults of the fall of Thangorodrim there were mighty convulsions in the earth, and Beleriand was broken and laid waste...many lands sank beneath the waters of the Great Sea."
Ancalagons fall contributed in the destruction of Beleriend alongside the Great Battle, presumably the war of Wrath and events such as Eönwë beating Morgoth.
Sauron in his prime would at least be around this lvl of power considering his One Ring can't be destroyed by Ancalagon, possibly putting him above Eönwë? Sauron also has a statement that he destroyed hills or some such, which can mean whole countries or so I've heard.
Ossë and Uinen might need some research, but I feel they could be amongst the greatest since in older writings Ossë was even meant to be a Valar whilst Uinen in the current Silmarillion is honored as highly as one.
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I really should sleep so I'll only address two points. It should be noted that there's still the point that the Valar perceived Eönwë, even potentially incarnated like the Istari, as overkill to deal with Sauron, and there remains the fact that we simply do not know if Eönwë participated in the battle against the dragons, as he quite frankly cannot fly, in his normal state (plus no transformation is mentioned) and no mention is made of him participating regardless.
I'd posit that Eönwë and Sauron (with the Ring) might actually be comparable, given both were above the end of the First Age Morgoth (although I cannot find the damn quote putting Sauron at that level, despite seeing it in the past), and both were (likely) the strongest Maiar on the opposing side. Of course, the fact the Valar still saw Eönwë as overkill makes him likely stronger, but they shouldn't be ridiculously far apart.
In fact, if we take a look at the Fall of Numenor, we see Sauron take hits from the lightning of Manwë, and laugh them off (post One Ring, and the Letters of Tolkien mention his power does not diminish when he takes off the Ring), although they were only warnings, so he obviously does not = Manwë.
Also, Ancalagon likely did contribute a significant amount to the battle, to the extent his death is seen as significant enough to record, however, it is noted that the battle continued after his death.
I'll take a look at the rest later, as I'm barely conscious.
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I'll say in the case of Melian that context matters. While the above quote can support a resolution placing Melian at nigh-Valar tier if we decide on it, it's not deciding evidence on its own. In this case, 'akin' seems to refer more to character, much like how Curumo being 'above' Olorin, described social hierarchy rather than power.
Ossë and Uinen I agree need more research or at least more opinions on. We could theoretically put an unknown or an 'at least' and 'possibly', but the unknown seems unnecessary, as we simply need to decide on an interpretation, and the 'at least' and 'possibly' option can make the profiles very confusing.
On a sidenote, after looking at the evidence, you've convinced me that dragons seem to be on average, superior to Balrogs. Case by case evidence may exist, but I think it's safe to put Ancalagon and Smaug (as the last of the great wyverns) as above, and at least comparable respectively.
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Minor addition to make, but in case people are concerned that Sauron (with the Ring) being nigh-valar tier (if we decide on that) breaks scaling, it shouldn't, as Sauron's only personal defeat with the Ring (the Last Alliance) came during a period he was weakened due to having to reform himself after death (Letters of Tolkien).
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Wait, when did he die prior to the Last Alliance?
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Numenor, he died when Eru kinda broke the world.
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During the sinking of Numenor, Eru essentially remade the world to be spherical, instead of flat, it's detailed in the Silmarillion.
Although we do have other accounts that say the world was always flat, the breaking and remaking of the world in some sense is constant. The cosmology has been changed multiple times by Tolkien, the above is just the most generally accepted.
I'm waiting on Merchant66's next response to my reply to him.
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Eönwë being overkill and them sending the Istari was for Sauron in the 3rd age where he was much weaker, though. Not sure about the War of the Wrath thing, if he were the leader than he would have been amongst the ranks to be driven off by the Winged Dragons, no? He could still jump high, most likely.
Here is the quote about Sauron>Morgoth
“Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. […] The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. ”
— HoME X, Myth Transformed
I'm unsure on the Melian thing, since that's all we really have on her, but she also did chase off Ungoliant, correct? Thats should support her nigh-Valar stance.
With Ossë and Uinen I'll definitely look more into them, as I've said earlier writings does portray them being on a similar lvls to the Valar and even in the published accts they are respected on the same tier as the Valar.
Here is the quote about Sauron>Morgoth
“Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. […] The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. ”
— HoME X, Myth Transformed
I'm unsure on the Melian thing, since that's all we really have on her, but she also did chase off Ungoliant, correct? Thats should support her nigh-Valar stance.
With Ossë and Uinen I'll definitely look more into them, as I've said earlier writings does portray them being on a similar lvls to the Valar and even in the published accts they are respected on the same tier as the Valar.
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Sorry for double posting, but here are some good quotes regarding the speed/teleportation/limited time trav of Valar/Mair:
They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be.
…
"But the Vala (or Maia) could move or pass over Sea. For their bodies were self-made. They houseless[?] as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then reclothe themselves.”
Parma Eldalamberon XVII
But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.*(3) *
They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator.”
Morgoth’s Ring
[The Valar and Maiar] could move/travel simply by an act of will when not arrayed in a body - which they could assume when they reached the places that. (5)
The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olórin = Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate, and they could, if allowed or commanded, return. (6)
"When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind."
They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be.
…
"But the Vala (or Maia) could move or pass over Sea. For their bodies were self-made. They houseless[?] as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then reclothe themselves.”
Parma Eldalamberon XVII
But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.*(3) *
They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator.”
Morgoth’s Ring
[The Valar and Maiar] could move/travel simply by an act of will when not arrayed in a body - which they could assume when they reached the places that. (5)
The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olórin = Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate, and they could, if allowed or commanded, return. (6)
"When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind."
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I discussed the speed implications for this on the speed thread, and people seem to have decided on it being infinite speed.
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I suppose we can do an at least "Istari (Maiar form) tier" potentially "Nigh-Valar tier" for Melian. You're right, she does have a lot of stuff to put her at Nigh-Valar tier, but a lot of it is somewhat iffy. Comparisons to Valar exist, but they're likely about character. She repulsed Ungoliant, but the Balrogs could do the same (even if as a group), etc. So I think a potentially is more fitting here.
I'll have a look at the latter two as well, but I can't find much else besides what we know. If it comes down to it, we could just do a similar thing with them as Melian, and have the Istari solely upscale to Gandalf the Grey's feat, if nothing else is in-between
Shall we simply place Eönwë and Sauron with the Ring (pre-Fall of Numenor) in a comparable tier as both at the high-end of Nigh-Valar? Both have feats above end of First Age Morgoth, both have been essentially described as the mightiest Maiar on either side, etc.
Oh and thank you for the quote. It'll be essential for the description of Sauron's future new key.
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On a sidenote, what do you think of Sauron's place in the scaling with just his native strength? He's undoubtedly above Balrogs, and potentially Ancalagon in my eyes, and Olorin would scale to him too, so I'm quite curious on your thoughts.
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