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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Saurons power thru the ages? I was wondering if you had the Olórin=Sauron quote at hand.

Using that, I think it goes:

Sauron as Annatar>Saurons terrible form w/ring>3rd age Sauron>Sauron end of 1st age (stated to be a higher order of being than Istari)>Sauron pre fall (Being = to Olórin)

You said you found a quote saying Saurons destruction of his body when Eru crushed him as Annatar weakened him, quote?
 
Do the two of you think that you will be ready to apply any of your conclusions to edits in the wiki soon?
 
Still have a lot I think we need 2 discuss in all honesty, once I finish the Silmarillion I can give way more feedback. There's tons more stuff to read as well such as the notes, so yeah will be a bit.
 
Okay. No problem. The issue is just that our current LotR pages are very bad, and are in great rather urgent need of improvements.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Saurons power thru the ages? I was wondering if you had the Olórin=Sauron quote at hand.

Using that, I think it goes:

Sauron as Annatar>Saurons terrible form w/ring>3rd age Sauron>Sauron end of 1st age (stated to be a higher order of being than Istari)>Sauron pre fall (Being = to Olórin)

You said you found a quote saying Saurons destruction of his body when Eru crushed him as Annatar weakened him, quote?
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Regarding the Olórin = Sauron thing, it comes from the Unfinished Tales section on the Istari, wherein it mentions that one among them was equal with Sauron in his origin, Olórin.

I'll agree with your scaling for the most part, but I'll have to move down two if his placements

Sauron (as Annatar/ w/ring)
Sauron end of the First Age
Sauron pre fall
First Age Sauron
with Sauron terrible form w/ring being somewhere above 3rd Age, and pre fall Sauron, but potentially below end of First Age.

This is due to two segments from the Letters of Tolkien: Letter 200, and Letter 211 respectively

"After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination)."

"Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established."

While the word domination could suggest realm, it likely refers to his personal might for several reasons:

1. He chose to initiate the attacks on Gondor. This shows his realm had recovered enough might for him to be confident to attack. However, I recognise this alone is not enough since Elendil and Gil-Galad might have attacked him before he was ready for that scale of warfare. Therefore

2. The sentence prior refers to his bodily rehabilitation, showing emphasis on him needing to recover his personal power, regardless of the state of the realm.

3. Until now he had lead battles from the front, but during the Last Alliance, he chose not to, showing he was likely still recovering his might

4. Numenor in its might was not a personal threat to him - Letter 211 - "Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning" (in response to a question of how Sauron was defeated by Numenor + Letter 156 "So Sauron had recourse to guile. He submitted, and was carried off to Númenor as a prisonerhostage. But he was of course a 'divine' person (in the terms of this mythology; a lesser member of the race of Valar) and thus far too powerful to be controlled in this way"

As to why I put Third Age Sauron below his pre-Fall, it's due to aquote from the Fellowship, during the Council, mentioning that much of Sauron's "native" strength was in the Ring, and considering Sauron lacked the majority of his power, it stands to reason that Sauron, having likely permanently lost some power via corrupting Numenor (like Morgoth with the world/universe) and rebuilding his body twice, was now weaker than himself at his origin now he was without the Ring.


Oh and btw, this is just me noting down a useful quote for the future from Letter 181
"His function as a 'wizard' is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided."
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. No problem. The issue is just that our current LotR pages are very bad, and are in great rather urgent need of improvements.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but we're only partway through this project. There's still much that needs to be covered before the profiles can be revised on mass, and after that there's the abilities, and likely cosmology discussions to be had.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I'm sorry but we're only partway through this project. There's still much that needs to be covered before the profiles can be revised on mass, and after that there's the abilities, and likely cosmology discussions to be had.
Click to expand...
You two should probably talk on direct messages or something, then establish a blog with all info. Or even a sandbox with how future profiles will look.

That would probably speed things up.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
You two should probably talk on direct messages or something, then establish a blog with all info. Or even a sandbox with how future profiles will look.

That would probably speed things up.
Click to expand...
This is something that's been suggested, but to be frank, I'm only doing this as a hobby, and a very sporadic hobby at that.

I originally only made a (separate) thread a while back to highlight the issue to any LOTR experts on the site only for most supporters to be absent, which is why I had to temporarily rescind my lurker status.
 
Tyranno223 said:
This is something that's been suggested, but to be frank, I'm only doing this as a hobby, and a very sporadic hobby at that.

I originally only made a (separate) thread a while back to highlight the issue to any LOTR experts on the site only for most supporters to be absent, which is why I had to temporarily rescind my lurker status.
Click to expand...
All of us do this as a hobby. Fair enough on the other things, but seeing as you both seem quite invested, a more amicable form of communication would ease things.
 
Sauron 3rd age during the War of the Ring is above Gandalf the White who iirc has most of his Olórin power, which is why I kinda want to put him above his "Mairon" self unless I'm missing something.


Other than that, I agree with most of what ypu said. Didn't know Sauron was weaker during his fight with Elendil and Gil-Galad, always thought that form was near his Annatar form or even was the same strength, makes sense, though.


Since the Istari and Sauron are some of the stronger Maiar, what do you think of them scaling to Arien, who we can at least peg @ star level?
 
I am fine with if you continue to discuss this issue here. It logically shouldn't make much of a difference if you post messages here or in private to each other in terms of time consumption.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I'm sorry but we're only partway through this project. There's still much that needs to be covered before the profiles can be revised on mass, and after that there's the abilities, and likely cosmology discussions to be had.
Click to expand...
No problem in any case.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Sauron 3rd age during the War of the Ring is above Gandalf the White who iirc has most of his Olórin power, which is why I kinda want to put him above his "Mairon" self unless I'm missing something.


Other than that, I agree with most of what ypu said. Didn't know Sauron was weaker during his fight with Elendil and Gil-Galad, always thought that form was near his Annatar form or even was the same strength, makes sense, though.


Since the Istari and Sauron are some of the stronger Maiar, what do you think of them scaling to Arien, who we can at least peg @ star level?
Click to expand...
Can you explain your reasoning for Gandalf the White having most of his power back? He's logically far less restricted, but that alone isn't proof.

Also Gandalf the White's shown to be somewhat comparable to Third Age Sauron in might (mentally fought him to a stand still over Frodo at Amon Hen, and was second to only him in might) which does imply Sauron was either weaker than, or comparable to his Mairon self, if we go by the above logic.

Star level Arien, and thus scaling to her is an issue, since we need to prove the sun is comparable to our sun. It should be similar, given the world of LOTR is meant to be a past version of our own, and Tolkien certainly knew an inkling of the sun's nature, given scientific advancements by the 20th C, but I haven't gotten round to making an argument for that yet.

However, if we can rate her as that, I think the scaling to star should be fine, albeit, the description should be at least or likely "comparable", rather than outright "superior", given it's not 100% certain.
 
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On a sidenote, I think Ossë scaling to nigh-valar tier seems right after some deliberation.

1. He, alongside Uinen, were, as Merchant mentioned, originally conceived as rival Valar to Ulmo

2. As a direct vassal of Ulmo, he holds a uniquely high rank in the Ainur hierarchy, and while this alone is not enough (as Curumo is high in Valinorian society, but seemingly weaker than Olorin), it's rather useful back up.

3. Morgoth could not subdue the seas, and while this could refer to weakened Morgoth, it's likely referring to his pre-(massively) weakened self, given the placement of the reference early in the Silmarillion.

4. Morgoth viewed Ossë as a valuable tool, promising him Ulmo's domain, which while likely a false promise, shows how powerful Ossë was for Morgoth to consider making such an offer.

5. Ossë being untied to any references in scaling, actually benefits him in this way, as there is no indexing issue from having him this high, and there's no anti-feats to have him lowered.

Melian I still have doubts, and suggest an only possible tier on my end, and for Arien, I don't think she has enough evidence, since Morgoth is implied to be weakened by the time the Sun rises.

Also, due to Morgoth being weakened to the point Fingolfin could harm him prior to his defeat, I believe Eönwë and Sauron scaling above him actually doesn't matter much for their scaling. It's only useful as extra evidence.
 
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Also, I've made an argument for why Eönwë should scale above Ancalagon. He is superior to Thorondor (a Maia of Manwë, who is logically weaker than the greatest Maia of Manwë), who is logically superior to his lessers, the Great Eagles, who fought Ancalagon and his fellow winged dragons on even terms.

Sauron and Eönwë seem rather comparable on those grounds.
 
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I found a quote online that cites The History of Middle Earth: The Lost Tales II under Turambar's section as stating "drakes and worms... are the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."

Need to find an actual copy online to check, but if legit, this could alter scaling somewhat, although Ancalagon and his flying peers may be an exception.
 
Sorry for not responding, a lot happened recently but I'll try and be more consistent.

I thought there was a quote that says Gandalf the White did indeed have a lot of his Olórin power? If not that's fine, albeit I would prefer it simply because that does seem somewhat consistent.


On the Arien thing, I did read her section in the Silmarillion and first Age Sun actually fell into the Ocean, so it's most likely not as big. But, one way to try and rationalize it is that maybe Flat Earth Arda was bigger? If nothing else, despite being small, it was still just as bright as the actual Sun, implying a high power output assuming fusion at that size.


I'm not sure about Eönwë scaling above Ancalagon, sure he couldn't fly but I'm going to assume he could jump very high or even use his ability to teleport if nothing else, when Ancalagon and his host came out they repelled the entire Host of the Valar, logically should include Eönwë. Also, to kill Ancalagon took a ship blessed by the Valar and a Silmaril piloted by a powerful Half Elf/Half-Númenórean and potentially Thorondor by his side. Ancalagon might actually be the strongest combatant in the War despite being a portion of Morgoths power, I'd go as far to claim that.


It's stated in the Silmarillion that Eönwë couldn't pardon Sauron because they were "of the same order" ofc that could just mean they are both Maiar but we know Tolkien described Sauron as being a "being of higher order" when he compared Gandalf and the rest of the Istari, Might be a point of comparison.


That Balrog>Dragon quote comes from an older draft when Melkor was called "Melko" I don't think that statement still stands especially with what we know in the War of Wrath, unless it just referred to Wyrms such as Glaurung but even I doubt that, considering Glaurung and the other Wyrms were constantly taking down armies of Elves which most Balrogs couldn't do, ofc that was admittedly because Balrogs in older writings weren't that strong.


Finally, what do you think of the Round Earth cosmology later made by Tolkien?
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Sorry for not responding, a lot happened recently but I'll try and be more consistent.

I thought there was a quote that says Gandalf the White did indeed have a lot of his Olórin power? If not that's fine, albeit I would prefer it simply because that does seem somewhat consistent.


On the Arien thing, I did read her section in the Silmarillion and first Age Sun actually fell into the Ocean, so it's most likely not as big. But, one way to try and rationalize it is that maybe Flat Earth Arda was bigger? If nothing else, despite being small, it was still just as bright as the actual Sun, implying a high power output assuming fusion at that size.


I'm not sure about Eönwë scaling above Ancalagon, sure he couldn't fly but I'm going to assume he could jump very high or even use his ability to teleport if nothing else, when Ancalagon and his host came out they repelled the entire Host of the Valar, logically should include Eönwë. Also, to kill Ancalagon took a ship blessed by the Valar and a Silmaril piloted by a powerful Half Elf/Half-Númenórean and potentially Thorondor by his side. Ancalagon might actually be the strongest combatant in the War despite being a portion of Morgoths power, I'd go as far to claim that.


It's stated in the Silmarillion that Eönwë couldn't pardon Sauron because they were "of the same order" ofc that could just mean they are both Maiar but we know Tolkien described Sauron as being a "being of higher order" when he compared Gandalf and the rest of the Istari, Might be a point of comparison.


That Balrog>Dragon quote comes from an older draft when Melkor was called "Melko" I don't think that statement still stands especially with what we know in the War of Wrath, unless it just referred to Wyrms such as Glaurung but even I doubt that, considering Glaurung and the other Wyrms were constantly taking down armies of Elves which most Balrogs couldn't do, ofc that was admittedly because Balrogs in older writings weren't that strong.


Finally, what do you think of the Round Earth cosmology later made by Tolkien?
Click to expand...
@Tyranno223
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Sorry for not responding, a lot happened recently but I'll try and be more consistent.

I thought there was a quote that says Gandalf the White did indeed have a lot of his Olórin power? If not that's fine, albeit I would prefer it simply because that does seem somewhat consistent.


On the Arien thing, I did read her section in the Silmarillion and first Age Sun actually fell into the Ocean, so it's most likely not as big. But, one way to try and rationalize it is that maybe Flat Earth Arda was bigger? If nothing else, despite being small, it was still just as bright as the actual Sun, implying a high power output assuming fusion at that size.


I'm not sure about Eönwë scaling above Ancalagon, sure he couldn't fly but I'm going to assume he could jump very high or even use his ability to teleport if nothing else, when Ancalagon and his host came out they repelled the entire Host of the Valar, logically should include Eönwë. Also, to kill Ancalagon took a ship blessed by the Valar and a Silmaril piloted by a powerful Half Elf/Half-Númenórean and potentially Thorondor by his side. Ancalagon might actually be the strongest combatant in the War despite being a portion of Morgoths power, I'd go as far to claim that.


It's stated in the Silmarillion that Eönwë couldn't pardon Sauron because they were "of the same order" ofc that could just mean they are both Maiar but we know Tolkien described Sauron as being a "being of higher order" when he compared Gandalf and the rest of the Istari, Might be a point of comparison.


That Balrog>Dragon quote comes from an older draft when Melkor was called "Melko" I don't think that statement still stands especially with what we know in the War of Wrath, unless it just referred to Wyrms such as Glaurung but even I doubt that, considering Glaurung and the other Wyrms were constantly taking down armies of Elves which most Balrogs couldn't do, ofc that was admittedly because Balrogs in older writings weren't that strong.


Finally, what do you think of the Round Earth cosmology later made by Tolkien?
Click to expand...
I don't believe a quote for that exists. I don't think it's specifically stated how much of Olorin's power is released, only that a significant enough amount of it is. I'll have a look at this when I'm free.

The cosmology of LOTR is... difficult. The end result of it is clear, as it is meant to become akin to our own world (albeit with stuff behind the scene), so the Sun should become like our sun, just more... divine. Before the breaking of Arda however, Tolkien changes his mind a lot, with flat to round to oval, etc.

Repelling the Host of the Valar doesn't necessarily mean they overpowered Eönwë, as the host is made up of mostly elves. If the elves break, the host is repelled even if certain individuals can fight. Moreover, we know Eönwë likely didn't attack the dragons in the air, since it's made pretty clear that only the Great Eagles and Eärendil combated the dragons in the air.

The Sauron quote could certainly be used to imply comparability, but I'd be careful, since Tolkien does sometimes use the same terminology to express different things. In this particular case, it's implied to be the Maiar/Valar distinction, since Eönwë is saying only the Valar can judge Sauron.
 
In regards to the cosmology, Tolkien did intend for the Flat earth stuff to just be a legend within the lore, and that the universe was created just like ours from the beginning. I'm unsure if this would change anything, since this would mean The Valar and Maiar didn't create anything such as stars and whatnot. If it means anything, Tolkien still says they are Demiurgic powers and how Melkor infected the universe with his evil and all that + the statement that the Valar control the matter of all of Eä would still stand.


I'll get to the rest in a later period of time.
 
Thanks again for helping out so much.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
In regards to the cosmology, Tolkien did intend for the Flat earth stuff to just be a legend within the lore, and that the universe was created just like ours from the beginning. I'm unsure if this would change anything, since this would mean The Valar and Maiar didn't create anything such as stars and whatnot. If it means anything, Tolkien still says they are Demiurgic powers and how Melkor infected the universe with his evil and all that + the statement that the Valar control the matter of all of Eä would still stand.


I'll get to the rest in a later period of time.
Click to expand...
The creation of the constellations would remain under Varda's feats, and I believe thr shaping of the world was still performed by the Ainur, but yeah, they would still have their demiurgic status, so it wouldn't change the ratings too much.

It is rather troubling that Tolkien never gave a definitive answer to his cosmology, as the form of the universe can really change a lot.
 
Anything new? I haven't been able to study the lore lately, tons of stuff happened irl.

I will say that I believe that Eä might have evidence to have other universes and possibly other dimensions? "Halls and spaces" are referred to within Eä, and it is said that there are areas of Eä that contain different histories than the ones present around Arda.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Anything new? I haven't been able to study the lore lately, tons of stuff happened irl.

I will say that I believe that Eä might have evidence to have other universes and possibly other dimensions? "Halls and spaces" are referred to within Eä, and it is said that there are areas of Eä that contain different histories than the ones present around Arda.
Click to expand...
@Tyranno223
 
Also, do either of you have any good ideas for revisions that we can currently apply to the LOTR pages?
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Anything new? I haven't been able to study the lore lately, tons of stuff happened irl.

I will say that I believe that Eä might have evidence to have other universes and possibly other dimensions? "Halls and spaces" are referred to within Eä, and it is said that there are areas of Eä that contain different histories than the ones present around Arda.
Click to expand...
NOME and other materials do cover some stuff about metaphysics, although I didn't have a proper look at it.

I still need to properly compile info on Sauron and the Istari, and then stuff after that.
 
Okay. No problem. Please keep us updated about your progress with this revision here.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Ainur spirits speeds and teleportation powers can be used in their mortal forms, correct?
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If you're referring to their ability to move anywhere at will, it's stated they can only do so in their unveiled/spirit forms, but that switching between the two is as natural as breathing for them.

So no, but it would be a simple matter for them to switch forms regardless.
 
To stray from the Ainur for a bit, I feel there is a way to get a tier for the Witch-King. During the battle of Minas Tirith, he was able to massively amp Grond, a 100 foot long battering. Initially, Grond couldn't even scratch the Great Gate of Minas Tirith, a gate that was 50 feet tall and made of Iron and Steel. After the Witch King amped it, it shattered it violently with one blow, with the impact also seemingly discharging lightning when it hit the Gate.
 
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