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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Armorchompy said:
Uh, I forgot to bring it up until now, but I did the calculation for Ents crushing stone https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Armorchompy/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_-_Ent_Crush_Stone
Click to expand...
Nice stuff. We can probably downscale trolls and characters who can harm trolls from them if this is accepted.

For Boromir, a note could probably be made saying his failure to harm a cave troll was based on the quality of his weapon.

Weaker characters have harmed trolls afterall (Thorin who is roughly comparable to Gimli, who is noted to be weaker than Boromir and Aragorn. Beregond, a lesser Gondorian, also took hits from Hill Trolls/possible Olog-Hai).

For the record, I will probably bring up the Moon discussion we had in my next revision post. I've had some further thoughts on that.
 
Last edited:
See here:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Gandalf

Gandalf, originally known as Olórin, is a member of the order of wizards known as the Istari. Despite his appearance, Gandalf is not a human sorcerer, but rather a Maia of the ancient race of beings known as the Ainur, who existed before the creation of Arda. He is one of the main heroes in both...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
No problem at all. 🙏🙂

So what, if anything, do we currently need to do here?
 
Antvasima said:
No problem at all. 🙏🙂

So what, if anything, do we currently need to do here?
Click to expand...
Well Armorchompy's calc could do with evaluation.

There was a Numenor calc Merchant was waiting on from Experiment.

From me, I plan to go over the Moon tiering based on my discussion with Armor. I'll also revisit Aragorn's tiering some time after that. Nothing immediate right now.
 
I would also like to apologise for my prior confrontational behaviour. After rereading my initial arguments to Bambu and Armor, I was definitely acting like a right snobbish ass.

I am sorry for being so dismissive, I was admittedly very tired and busy at the time, but that only goes so far as an excuse. Sorry again.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I would also like to apologise for my prior confrontational behaviour. After rereading my initial arguments to Bambu and Armor, I was definitely acting like a right snobbish ass.

I am sorry for being so dismissive, I was admittedly very tired and busy at the time, but that only goes so far as an excuse. Sorry again.
Click to expand...
Don't worry about it, no hard feelings (wasn't exactly acting super pleasant myself either)
 
The Moon and Sun: Interlude?

Nasty business out of the way for now, I'd like to start off by returning to this rush job of a post (NOTE: This post will reference things that have already been posted in the initial Moon revision. For further details, refer to the initial post)

The initial revision asserted the Moon as being mostly 1 to 1 with its real world counterpart while leaving the Sun in an ambiguous state. After discussion with Armorchompy, we've generally come to the conclusion that this ambiguity is not necessary, as there is little to really contradict the Sun being in a similar state aside from its fantastical origin story, which the Moon itself shares. In fact, as much of the Sun's mass is made of Arien's body, there is less of an issue, as Arien only assumed her "Sun" form upon leaving Valinor fully, unlike Tilion who steered the Moon as it was.

Thus, we should assume the Sun is largely 1 to 1 with our world as such is the state of the wider LotR universe, making it 4-C. Arien's body is what makes up the majority of the Sun, so she could probably scale as "4-C, possibly High 3-A"

Moon Attack

5-C?
Now, here's the meat of the issue. The initial revision was largely rushed out, so I took the quote of Morgoth sending spirits to attack the Moon as 5-C without much further thoughts.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR

The issue is, Morgoth sent multiple spirits to attack Tilion and the Moon. This automatically makes 5-C questionable as it would not have been one spirit attacking the Moon.

An attack on the Moon or the flower?
Here is the second thing, the quote states Morgoth "assailed Tilion", making it questionable whether Morgoth meant to attack the Moon as a whole. Afterall, the Moon's light originates from the flower, Isil, and Morgoth "hated the new lights" wanting to destroy them specifically. Doesn't this mean he did not need to destroy the Moon to achieve his goal?

Well, Tolkien never managed to finish his cosmology before he died, leaving us with a curious situation in regards to the Moon. On one hand, it is considered a light giver, but also a reflector
  • "Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees."- The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR (Light giver)
  • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B (Light reflector)
This is certainly a narrative conflict to a certain extent, but this does bring us to an interesting matter, as if the Moon is a light reflector (be it singularly or both at once) the totality, or at least a vast majority of the Moon would need to be destroyed for the "new light" to be gone, not just the flower.

This is something supported in Tolkien's last notes, wherein his final edition of the Moon attack emphasise the spirits of Morgoth being sent to attack the Moon as a whole, not just the flower, Isil (the light giver)
  • "The further fortification of Valinor still of course arises from the fear of the Valar of 'the might and cunning of Morgoth' (QS), but Morgoth's attack on the Moon is now the main- spring of their fear: 'But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what the malice and cunning of Melkor might yet contrive against them.'" - Morgoth's Ring: Commentary on the sixth and last section of the Annals of Aman.
    • Christopher's notes on the matter- "This account of the Making of the Sun and Moon was the last that my father wrote. He was following QS Chapter 8 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor (V.239 - 43) very closely, but with many changes and notably many omissions. I indicate here most of the developments, some much more significant than others."
    • NOTE: As we take the published Silmarillion's text as being more canon over other versions of the Silmarillion, contradictory texts should be ignored. However, as the specific text given here simply expands upon events of Moon attack according to Tolkien's final thoughts, it should be useful supporting evidence
    • A 1958 note asserts much the same for instance, showing the consistency of this idea across Tolkien's thoughts - "The Sun was the immediate source of the light of Arda. The Blessedness of the Trees (as compared with other growing things later) was that they were kindled and illumined with the light of the Sun and Moon before these were tainted. The attack of Melkor on the Sun (and Moon) must therefore be subsequent to the establishment of Valinor, and be Melkor's effort to produce darkness." -Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED. MYTHS TRANSFORMED. V.
      • "This brief comment, entitled 'Sun The Trees Silmarils', is found on a single sheet, together with other more substantial writings similar in appearance, preserved in a folded newspaper of November 1958." - Christopher's commentary
Thus, it can be said that two out of three positions on the Moon would necessitate Morgoth to attack the Moon as a whole to snuff out a "new light", with surrounding commentary supporting the idea.

Now what?

Well the matter comes down to this. The Moon was something Morgoth desired to have attacked and subsequently destroyed, but that does not change the fact that multiple spirits were sent to do so, making 5-C untenable in and of itself.
  • Note: Morgoth only attacked things to destroy them. See here.
    • Additionally - see these lines from Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed
      • "Thus, as "Morgoth", when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction."
      • "Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them in his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own "creatures", such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men."
      • "Morgoth had no "plan"; unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a "plan". But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation. Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism)."
    • The Silmarils are an exception. Their allure was something Morgoth could not resist.
I am not entirely sure how to proceed here as a result, but I will note this
  • Tilion was capable of fending off all these spirits at once.
  • Each individual spirit must have been capable of devastating much of the Moon individually. The dialogue of "sending spirits of shadow against " does not imply their numbers to be vast, merely numerous.
  • We rarely see more than a few Ainur under Morgoth's service by the time of the War of the Great Jewels. The most numerous group we hear of are the 7 Balrogs. The only other group we hear of are the Boldogs, who numbers are unknown.
  • The attack must have occurred before the Valar were aware, as their range was still stellar at bare minimum at this point, and almost certainly infinite, given their ability to have a great control over the entire physical matter of the universe
    • "But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what themalice and cunning of Morgoth might yet contrive against them. Beingunwilling to make war upon him in Middle-earth, they remembered nonethelessthe ruin of Almaren; and they resolved that the like should not befall Valinor" - The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR - It seems the Valar were only made aware of the attack after the fact, making it clear that the conflict could not have occurred over a long period of time.
    • Moreover, if the spirits were meant to destroy the Moon slowly, then the Valar almost certainly would have noticed and stopped them part way through. The attack cannot have been intended to be slow
  • The extended notes of Tolkien also imply the Sun was in fact attacked, despite the Published Silmarillion saying Morgoth was unwilling to attack (see above, moreover this could have meant a personal attack). This could imply the spirits were capable of destroying the Sun as a group as well, but this is not confirmed in the published work.

Conclusion
My personal opinion is that the Moon attack should be taken to mean that the Moon would have been destroyed in large chunks within a "reasonable timeframe", but I am aware of the difficulty around quantifying this. I cannot really say what tier it should outright be as a result. At worst, it can just be added to the "likely far higher" part of the profiles, but I do believe a tier 6 proposal can be made.

Regardless, tier 5 should go.

Brief Witch-King Preludio
The next proposal after this will be a (hopefully) short revisit of part of the scaling chain. But for now, I just wanted to point out that only the Witch-King is stated to actually have a special resistance to weapons, and that said resistance isn't outright invulnerability.

"Look!’ he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a blackcloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above thelower hem there was a slash. ‘This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,’he said. ‘The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it isunharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. Moredeadly to him was the name of Elbereth.’" - Lord of the Ring: Fellowship of the Ring: Book One, Chapter 12: FLIGHT TO THE FORD

To put it simply, only the Witch-King actually has resistance to conventional weaponry in verse, none of the other Nazgul are implied to possess this trait. The closest you get is in Book Three: Chapter 5, wherein Gandalf says

"‘One that you cannot slay with arrows,’ said Gandalf. ‘You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsedagain. For he was a Nazguˆl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds."

However, this does not imply the same as the Witch-King's weapon destroying trait. Indeed, Letter 210 emphasizes "The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others", making it clear the powers he possesses do not necessarily translate to other Nazgul.

Finally, weapons can in fact still pierce the Witch-King. "All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King." It is still possible to physically harm the Witch-King, just not kill him or do permanent damage.
  • In fact, Letter 246 says - "The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence" during the Battle of the Black Gates, showing even his "final death" was not a true one.
  • "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it,would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will"- Lord of the Ring: Return of the King: Book Five, Chapter 6: BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS - His spirit appears bound to his flesh, explaining why wounds do nothing to him, other than theoretically cripple him.
Conclusion:
Nothing actually needs changing per say, although the wording of his page's ability will need changing. This was more to clear up misinformation in preparation for a future post.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Conclusion
My personal opinion is that the Moon attack should be taken to mean that the Moon would have been destroyed in large chunks within a "reasonable timeframe", but I am aware of the difficulty around quantifying this. I cannot really say what tier it should outright be as a result. At worst, it can just be added to the "likely far higher" part of the profiles, but I do believe a tier 6 proposal can be made.
Click to expand...
I think it would definitely be tier 6 but unfortunately cannot really be quantified as anything but a "far higher" slapped after the other rating. I agree with the removal, anyhow.
 
Tyranno223 said:
The Moon and Sun: Interlude?

Nasty business out of the way for now, I'd like to start off by returning to this rush job of a post (NOTE: This post will reference things that have already been posted in the initial Moon revision. For further details, refer to the initial post)

The initial revision asserted the Moon as being mostly 1 to 1 with its real world counterpart while leaving the Sun in an ambiguous state. After discussion with Armorchompy, we've generally come to the conclusion that this ambiguity is not necessary, as there is little to really contradict the Sun being in a similar state aside from its fantastical origin story, which the Moon itself shares. In fact, as much of the Sun's mass is made of Arien's body, there is less of an issue, as Arien only assumed her "Sun" form upon leaving Valinor fully, unlike Tilion who steered the Moon as it was.

Thus, we should assume the Sun is largely 1 to 1 with our world as such is the state of the wider LotR universe, making it 4-C. Arien's body is what makes up the majority of the Sun, so she could probably scale as "4-C, possibly High 3-A"

Moon Attack

5-C?
Now, here's the meat of the issue. The initial revision was largely rushed out, so I took the quote of Morgoth sending spirits to attack the Moon as 5-C without much further thoughts.

"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR

The issue is, Morgoth sent multiple spirits to attack Tilion and the Moon. This automatically makes 5-C questionable as it would not have been one spirit attacking the Moon.

An attack on the Moon or the flower?
Here is the second thing, the quote states Morgoth "assailed Tilion", making it questionable whether Morgoth meant to attack the Moon as a whole. Afterall, the Moon's light originates from the flower, Isil, and Morgoth "hated the new lights" wanting to destroy them specifically. Doesn't this mean he did not need to destroy the Moon to achieve his goal?

Well, Tolkien never managed to finish his cosmology before he died, leaving us with a curious situation in regards to the Moon. On one hand, it is considered a light giver, but also a reflector
  • "Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees."- The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR (Light giver)
  • "The Quendi however seem to have guessed (and later been confirmed in it) that Anar the Sun and chief light-giver (Kalantar) of Arda was especially concerned with Arda and was far greater than any others because it was far nearer, though still very far away. Also they appear to have known or guessed that the Moon (Ithil) was not a light-giver, but a reflector. KAL = light from a light-giver (in Arda primarily from the Sun): ÑAL = reflected light." The Nature of Middle-Earth: DARK AND LIGHT, Text 1B (Light reflector)
This is certainly a narrative conflict to a certain extent, but this does bring us to an interesting matter, as if the Moon is a light reflector (be it singularly or both at once) the totality, or at least a vast majority of the Moon would need to be destroyed for the "new light" to be gone, not just the flower.

This is something supported in Tolkien's last notes, wherein his final edition of the Moon attack emphasise the spirits of Morgoth being sent to attack the Moon as a whole, not just the flower, Isil (the light giver)
  • "The further fortification of Valinor still of course arises from the fear of the Valar of 'the might and cunning of Morgoth' (QS), but Morgoth's attack on the Moon is now the main- spring of their fear: 'But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what the malice and cunning of Melkor might yet contrive against them.'" - Morgoth's Ring: Commentary on the sixth and last section of the Annals of Aman.
    • Christopher's notes on the matter- "This account of the Making of the Sun and Moon was the last that my father wrote. He was following QS Chapter 8 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor (V.239 - 43) very closely, but with many changes and notably many omissions. I indicate here most of the developments, some much more significant than others."
    • NOTE: As we take the published Silmarillion's text as being more canon over other versions of the Silmarillion, contradictory texts should be ignored. However, as the specific text given here simply expands upon events of Moon attack according to Tolkien's final thoughts, it should be useful supporting evidence
    • A 1958 note asserts much the same for instance, showing the consistency of this idea across Tolkien's thoughts - "The Sun was the immediate source of the light of Arda. The Blessedness of the Trees (as compared with other growing things later) was that they were kindled and illumined with the light of the Sun and Moon before these were tainted. The attack of Melkor on the Sun (and Moon) must therefore be subsequent to the establishment of Valinor, and be Melkor's effort to produce darkness." -Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED. MYTHS TRANSFORMED. V.
      • "This brief comment, entitled 'Sun The Trees Silmarils', is found on a single sheet, together with other more substantial writings similar in appearance, preserved in a folded newspaper of November 1958." - Christopher's commentary
Thus, it can be said that two out of three positions on the Moon would necessitate Morgoth to attack the Moon as a whole to snuff out a "new light", with surrounding commentary supporting the idea.

Now what?

Well the matter comes down to this. The Moon was something Morgoth desired to have attacked and subsequently destroyed, but that does not change the fact that multiple spirits were sent to do so, making 5-C untenable in and of itself.
  • Note: Morgoth only attacked things to destroy them. See here.
    • Additionally - see these lines from Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed
      • "Thus, as "Morgoth", when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction."
      • "Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them in his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own "creatures", such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men."
      • "Morgoth had no "plan"; unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a "plan". But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation. Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism)."
    • The Silmarils are an exception. Their allure was something Morgoth could not resist.
I am not entirely sure how to proceed here as a result, but I will note this
  • Tilion was capable of fending off all these spirits at once.
  • Each individual spirit must have been capable of devastating much of the Moon individually. The dialogue of "sending spirits of shadow against " does not imply their numbers to be vast, merely numerous.
  • We rarely see more than a few Ainur under Morgoth's service by the time of the War of the Great Jewels. The most numerous group we hear of are the 7 Balrogs. The only other group we hear of are the Boldogs, who numbers are unknown.
  • The attack must have occurred before the Valar were aware, as their range was still stellar at bare minimum at this point, and almost certainly infinite, given their ability to have a great control over the entire physical matter of the universe
    • "But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what themalice and cunning of Morgoth might yet contrive against them. Beingunwilling to make war upon him in Middle-earth, they remembered nonethelessthe ruin of Almaren; and they resolved that the like should not befall Valinor" - The Silmarillion: Chapter 11 - OF THE SUN AND MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR - It seems the Valar were only made aware of the attack after the fact, making it clear that the conflict could not have occurred over a long period of time.
    • Moreover, if the spirits were meant to destroy the Moon slowly, then the Valar almost certainly would have noticed and stopped them part way through. The attack cannot have been intended to be slow
  • The extended notes of Tolkien also imply the Sun was in fact attacked, despite the Published Silmarillion saying Morgoth was unwilling to attack (see above, moreover this could have meant a personal attack). This could imply the spirits were capable of destroying the Sun as a group as well, but this is not confirmed in the published work.

Conclusion
My personal opinion is that the Moon attack should be taken to mean that the Moon would have been destroyed in large chunks within a "reasonable timeframe", but I am aware of the difficulty around quantifying this. I cannot really say what tier it should outright be as a result. At worst, it can just be added to the "likely far higher" part of the profiles, but I do believe a tier 6 proposal can be made.

Regardless, tier 5 should go.

Brief Witch-King Preludio
The next proposal after this will be a (hopefully) short revisit of part of the scaling chain. But for now, I just wanted to point out that only the Witch-King is stated to actually have a special resistance to weapons, and that said resistance isn't outright invulnerability.

"Look!’ he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a blackcloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above thelower hem there was a slash. ‘This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,’he said. ‘The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it isunharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. Moredeadly to him was the name of Elbereth.’" - Lord of the Ring: Fellowship of the Ring: Book One, Chapter 12: FLIGHT TO THE FORD

To put it simply, only the Witch-King actually has resistance to conventional weaponry in verse, none of the other Nazgul are implied to possess this trait. The closest you get is in Book Three: Chapter 5, wherein Gandalf says

"‘One that you cannot slay with arrows,’ said Gandalf. ‘You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsedagain. For he was a Nazguˆl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds."

However, this does not imply the same as the Witch-King's weapon destroying trait. Indeed, Letter 210 emphasizes "The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others", making it clear the powers he possesses do not necessarily translate to other Nazgul.

Finally, weapons can in fact still pierce the Witch-King. "All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King." It is still possible to physically harm the Witch-King, just not kill him or do permanent damage.
  • In fact, Letter 246 says - "The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence" during the Battle of the Black Gates, showing even his "final death" was not a true one.
  • "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it,would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will"- Lord of the Ring: Return of the King: Book Five, Chapter 6: BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS - His spirit appears bound to his flesh, explaining why wounds do nothing to him, other than theoretically cripple him.
Conclusion:
Nothing actually needs changing per say, although the wording of his page's ability will need changing. This was more to clear up misinformation in preparation for a future post.
Click to expand...
Looks good to me.
 
Hello everyone, I've returned from a very long Holiday, so I wanted to propose some Abilities for Ainur and Gandalf Key High 3-A.

— [ Gandalf ]

『 Immortality Type 1 』

Gandalf was able to live from before Arda (World) was formed until 3019, even though he died, he still existed, even tough, he no longer had a physical body.

[ https://gyazo.com/dfcb605d988eb9cb16b66113dfabdc2b ]

『 Immortality Type 4 』

After being attracted by the Balrog to the point of touching his death at the bottom of the abyss, Gandalf immediately came back to life in a different place.

[ https://gyazo.com/7821daf16de4f5921ca7b1631cf34323. https://gyazo.com/727e39c9470adc5f910c943867e45fdb ]

『 Deconstruction 』

By reciting the words [Saruman, your staff is broken] it will be directly realized, and the attack orientation will only be able to affect "objects", according to the feat.

[ https://gyazo.com/58c30d7b43fe52aeea78a622f4044502 ]

『Death Manipulation via Aura (Always Active)』

Created as the wisest; Olórin/Gandalf, his presence radiates death to the evil. It was during the war of Melkor that the evil of Middle-earth faded under the radiance of Olórin's presence which resulted in death for evil. The time interval is stated to only last one tap of the stick (1-2s).

Presence is the presence of someone in a location, which makes Olórin's "presence" in that place, automatically triggered by his presence, the Aura can be emitted from his body. While he is "in" his Aura induction will come out [If we are feat oriented]. Furthermore, because of this feat, when Olórin appears, his presence emits a mystical aura based on Death Manipulation.

— Range 」

Atleast 30,000,000² Miles. Equivalent to Olórin's Aura of Presence which can influence the entirety of Middle-earth. [ Middle-earth size; %20square%20km.) ]

[ https://gyazo.com/df387ec47c69e10b8d8eb086dd75ace5 – https://gyazo.com/197a22258e2c2c4a75e27aeaa0650c7d (The Sillmarilion) ] . [ https://gyazo.com/643dfb5290a9412b3149b8e2b162a90e ].

— [ Ainur ]

『 Reality Creation & Subjective Reality 』

As explained in several previous paragraphs, it is related to the psychic side of the Angel/Ainur group. As we should know, Ainur was created from Imperishable Flame (Flame here does not have to refer to something that describes an Element, because it has been explained that Imperishable Flame is the realization of something deeper than that, namely the Soul) - created based on by Flame Imperishable, and have the authority to use it, like a power in the Rhythm they play, they decorate the theme with Flame Imperishable as its basic power [ https://gyazo.com/f209b93001018c85c8a93553a2c09af2 ] - The Rhythm they play is not an ordinary Rhythm, scaling from the basic power Iluvatar himself too - Iluvatar created the Universe and its concepts with that Rhythm too, Iluvatar said "Eä" and the Universe was realized from Divine Thought and the Rhythm he played [ https://gyazo.com/b2d7d9d3d1161d3e2ad87bb7dd066db1 ] - reported by Valaquenta According to him, the Imperishable Flame is able to materialize every vision into a real configuration [ ] - The realization of this ability forms many impossibilities into a Being that truly exists.
 
Experiment12 said:
— [ Gandalf ]

『 Immortality Type 1 』
Click to expand...
Yes. Already on page
Experiment12 said:
『 Immortality Type 4 』
Click to expand...
While he did resurrect, this was due to Eru's intervention, not his own power
Experiment12 said:
『 Deconstruction 』

By reciting the words [Saruman, your staff is broken] it will be directly realized, and the attack orientation will only be able to affect "objects", according to the feat.
Click to expand...
Seems about right.
Experiment12 said:
https://gyazo.com/58c30d7b43fe52aeea78a622f4044502 ]

『Death Manipulation via Aura (Always Active)』
Click to expand...
This doesn't seem to be death manipulation. He drags Saruman to the balcony by dominating his will, but that's more of a mental thing.

The rest reads like fanon.

Experiment12 said:
— Range 」

Atleast 30,000,000² Miles. Equivalent to Olórin's Aura of Presence which can influence the entirety of Middle-earth. [ Middle-earth size;
Click to expand...
Scan for proof of Olorin's range? The best range feat I am aware of is the mental battle over Amon Hen


Experiment12 said:
— [ Ainur ]

『 Reality Creation & Subjective Reality 』

As explained in several previous paragraphs, it is related to the psychic side of the Angel/Ainur group. As we should know, Ainur was created from Imperishable Flame (Flame here does not have to refer to something that describes an Element, because it has been explained that Imperishable Flame is the realization of something deeper than that, namely the Soul) - created based on by Flame Imperishable, and have the authority to use it, like a power in the Rhythm they play, they decorate the theme with Flame Imperishable as its basic power [ https://gyazo.com/f209b93001018c85c8a93553a2c09af2 ] - The Rhythm they play is not an ordinary Rhythm, scaling from the basic power Iluvatar himself too - Iluvatar created the Universe and its concepts with that Rhythm too, Iluvatar said "Eä" and the Universe was realized from Divine Thought and the Rhythm he played [ https://gyazo.com/b2d7d9d3d1161d3e2ad87bb7dd066db1 ] - reported by Valaquenta According to him, the Imperishable Flame is able to materialize every vision into a real configuration [ ] - The realization of this ability forms many impossibilities into a Being that truly exists.
Click to expand...

This is something that is worth looking into. As detailed prior, the Song of the Ainur counts as Concept Manipulation.

Eru would be the one to bring reality into being out of unreality or drama, but it is the Ainur who painted the canvas of that reality with concepts and the like.

However, being kindled by the Flame Imperishable doesn't give them the same ability to affect reality as Eru. Morgoth pointedly tried to find the Flame Imperishable as he lacked the same ability as Eru.

That being said, Morgoth and the other Ainur did indeed bring things into being that did not previously exist within the original "theme". Concepts like Discourse are but the most obvious ones.

Subjective reality might be usable, but I'd need to look into it. The current presented scans aren't enough. This would only be for their Low 1-C keys (possibly changing based on the R>F argument right now).
 
Armorchompy said:
I think it would definitely be tier 6 but unfortunately cannot really be quantified as anything but a "far higher" slapped after the other rating. I agree with the removal, anyhow.
Click to expand...
This seems to have been accepted. Any ideas for the wording changes to "likely far higher"?
 
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