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Lord of the Rings revisions

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TheMerchant66 said:
To stray from the Ainur for a bit, I feel there is a way to get a tier for the Witch-King. During the battle of Minas Tirith, he was able to massively amp Grond, a 100 foot long battering. Initially, Grond couldn't even scratch the Great Gate of Minas Tirith, a gate that was 50 feet tall and made of Iron and Steel. After the Witch King amped it, it shattered it violently with one blow, with the impact also seemingly discharging lightning when it hit the Gate.
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That would definitely work. The Witch King's tier is also kinda varied depending on what we do with Gandalf the White.
 
The above suggestion seems fine to me. I can ask a few calc group members to calculate the feat if you wish.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
To stray from the Ainur for a bit, I feel there is a way to get a tier for the Witch-King. During the battle of Minas Tirith, he was able to massively amp Grond, a 100 foot long battering. Initially, Grond couldn't even scratch the Great Gate of Minas Tirith, a gate that was 50 feet tall and made of Iron and Steel. After the Witch King amped it, it shattered it violently with one blow, with the impact also seemingly discharging lightning when it hit the Gate.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
The above suggestion seems fine to me. I can ask a few calc group members to calculate the feat if you wish.
Click to expand...
 
Regarding Balrogs vs Winged Dragons
+
Sauron and the "nigh-valar" tier

Can I suggest a "possibly" for both? I'll get onto why in more detail when I have time, but the former case is because both servants of Morgoth have evidence supporting them as the mightiest race under his banner, whereas Sauron is something I'll explain a bit later.

Basically I have some newish contentions with both Ancalagon, and Sauron himself.
 
"Possibly" what exactly? Please elaborate.
 
Okay. That is probably fine. I trust your sense of judgement regarding this issue.
 
Balrogs as the strongest servants of Morgoth

  • 'The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age.' (Letter 144) - chief being important, as Morgoth's servants usually had higher rank based on power
    • For instance, see Sauron - chief servant of Morgoth and his most power - 'chief of the Maiar who turned to Melkor.' + 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs'.
  • The very fact that the Balrogs managed to repel Ungoliant (Chapter 9 of the Silmarillion)

Dragons (especially winged) as the strongest servants of Morgoth

  • 'In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs' (Chapter 18 of the Silmarillion)
  • The simple fact that the Winged Dragons were Morgoth's last hope after the Balrogs were destroyed (Chapter 24 of the Silmarillion)

The two are comparable overall

  • 'Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end...' (Chapter 20 of the Silmarillion) - the two are mentioned as a comparable threats, and while mention of 'wolf' may diminish this statement at first glance, it doesn't by much in practice, as wolf likely referred to werewolves (basically just giant and powerful wolves in Tolkien's work, rather than shapeshifters) who were chief among Sauron's servants.
  • '...and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed' (Chapter 20 of the Silmarillion) - Glaurung seems to be an outlier among dragons, rather than indicative of their power overall, kind of like how Gothmog is for Balrogs (or Ancalagon for Winged Dragons), thus statements for him should not be indicative of overall differences in the comparisons of the powers of the races.

Conc
To be frank there isn't much evidence to concretely compare the two races overall, and what little evidence there is points in either direction.

The only really possible definitive argument one can make is that winged dragons may be the strongest overall, but Balrogs are repeatedly referred to as 'chief' among Morgoth's forces, and have an advantage by their very nature as Ainu.

My opinion is just to avoid comparing the two races directly, and just go with individual cases, as we see Glaurung appears to be superior to the average Balrog, given he is given emphasis as the greatest danger in an army with multiple Balrogs and Dragons.
 
Moreover, @TheMerchant66

From the chapter, "The White Rider", we have the line

"Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could harm me..."

Which includes Anduril, the (reforged) weapon which helped slay Sauron. Any thoughts on that?

Moreover, in general I plan on making an overview of Sauron by the end of the month (from Merchant and my discussion).
 
I forgot to mention this as well, but given that we're changing the justification for Low 2C to the fact that the Ainur view the universe as fiction/are transcendent to 'reality' (in their pre-Eä keys), the Maiar and all other Ainur should be Low 2C solidly, since they all shared the same nature, albeit with varying degrees of power.

Essentially all the Valar, all the Maiar (including the Istari like Gandalf, Saruman, etc), etc, should be Low 2C in that key.

For example - NOME - Chapter: "Metaphysical and Theological Themes"

"... spirits like the Valar and Maiar... are not incarnate by nature, but fashion bodies for themselves in order to interact more easily with Incarnates and the material world...."
(Incarnates being beings who are equally tied to body and spirit, just for clarification)

The quote above is just an example, as we know the Valar share their nature with the Maiar (same species, just different scales of power), and we already concluded that the Valar are Low 2C for transcending reality.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then, but we obviously need to separate the statistics of their true abstract selves and their physical avatars.
 
This thread has been going on for a long time without much happening in practice. Is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here so far?
 
Well we can basically go ahead and change the tiers for the Valar and Maiar (minus Sauron and the Istari). That's fine.

Speed needs to be downgraded, MFTL+ for those who scale to the Vigilot from the other thread, and Infinite for the Spirit forms of the Ainur.

We're just slowly working through the rest of the pages gradually. I can make the changes around the end of the month, as I have some stuff to do before then.
 
Okay. That is probably fine. Thank you for helping out.

Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.

Also, when you apply this revision, please insert a link to this thread into the small edit summary boxes, so your edits are not mistaken for vandalism.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That is probably fine. Thank you for helping out.

Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.

Also, when you apply this revision, please insert a link to this thread into the small edit summary boxes, so your edits are not mistaken for vandalism.
Click to expand...
Will do when I get to it, although that'll only be after the 22nd.
 
Thank you for helping out, Spino. You can check if updates are necessary if you wish.
 
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
I've already done the calcs a few pages back, the Tier 6 ones should be downgraded. Do any of them need their scaling changed?
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It would apply to every Maia (and those who scale) that isn't in the near-Valar tier. Merchant and I discussed the scaling for that some pages back, I'll apply that later.

What tier would they be downgraded to again?
 
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Sauron 7-A storm https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Sauron_makes_a_big_storm

Sauron 7-B earthquake https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...uron_Shook_Mordor_with_Signal_-_Calculation_4

Sauron Low 7-B volcano https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Sauron_erupting_Mount_Doom
Click to expand...
We have a 7B rating for Gandalf and the Balrog already, so I suppose that just reinforces that.

I'll apply 7A for those who scale to Sauron during the War of the Ring and the Last Alliance.
 
Thank you both for helping out.
 
Starting revisions slowly. I'm going to make some edits that might need some further discussion though, so I'll point them out here.

I will leave the Balrogs (in physical form) and those around that level at 7-B for now, until the Gandalf vs Balrog feat is calculated.

Those around the "Nigh-Valar" tier will be put at At least 7-A, likely 3-A, as we have no real description for them having the same degree of power as the Valar in the material universe, despite it being logical.

I've also put Morgoth's first key as Unknown, up to at least Mountain level, likely Universe level. provisionally, but he may be changed depending on where we put Sauron's First Age key. I've just put him in the Nigh-Valar tier for now, as I believe that's where we agreed to put Sauron (as he is chief among the Maiar of Morgoth).

Arien I also plan on putting in the Nigh-Valar tier as well due to the above, as she intimidated a Morgoth that was still superior to Sauron with the Ring (as he is specifically described as above Morgoth at the end of the First Age).

Eönwë and Ilmarë subsequently would be above Sauron with the Ring if the above is agreed, but their tier is Nigh-Valar regardless, being chief among all the Maiar.
 
Also, what sort of intelligence level is having complete understanding of a specific set of concepts or subjects?

For instance, Aulë having a complete understanding of the earth, metal, forging, etc.
 
Tyranno223 said:
We have a 7B rating for Gandalf and the Balrog already, so I suppose that just reinforces that.
Click to expand...
Witch King also has snowstorms under his belt and maybe Saruman does
My question is if should this scale to physical stuff or just be via Magic
 
Tyranno223 said:
Starting revisions slowly. I'm going to make some edits that might need some further discussion though, so I'll point them out here.

I will leave the Balrogs (in physical form) and those around that level at 7-B for now, until the Gandalf vs Balrog feat is calculated.

Those around the "Nigh-Valar" tier will be put at At least 7-A, likely 3-A, as we have no real description for them having the same degree of power as the Valar in the material universe, despite it being logical.

I've also put Morgoth's first key as Unknown, up to at least Mountain level, likely Universe level. provisionally, but he may be changed depending on where we put Sauron's First Age key. I've just put him in the Nigh-Valar tier for now, as I believe that's where we agreed to put Sauron (as he is chief among the Maiar of Morgoth).

Arien I also plan on putting in the Nigh-Valar tier as well due to the above, as she intimidated a Morgoth that was still superior to Sauron with the Ring (as he is specifically described as above Morgoth at the end of the First Age).

Eönwë and Ilmarë subsequently would be above Sauron with the Ring if the above is agreed, but their tier is Nigh-Valar regardless, being chief among all the Maiar.
Click to expand...
Okay. That seems fine.

If you provide the evidence for the Gandalf/Balrog feat, I can ask somebody to calculate it.
Tyranno223 said:
Also, what sort of intelligence level is having complete understanding of a specific set of concepts or subjects?

For instance, Aulë having a complete understanding of the earth, metal, forging, etc.
Click to expand...
I am not certain. It seems like an extremely limited form of Nigh-Omniscience, that does not fit well into our tiering system. Perhaps listing unknown intelligence, with additional clarifications of what they can do in this area, would be fine?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That seems fine.

If you provide the evidence for the Gandalf/Balrog feat, I can ask somebody to calculate it.

I am not certain. It seems like an extremely limited form of Nigh-Omniscience, that does not fit well into our tiering system. Perhaps listing unknown intelligence, with additional clarifications of what they can do in this area, would be fine?
Click to expand...
I'll provide the quote for it later today.

Regardiny intelligence, who "Unknown, possibly Nigh-Omniscient"? Work?

They are extremely knowledgeable of the world in general, they just have some areas they're lazer focused in.

Morgoth (and Manwë to a lesser extent) is an exception as he's knowledgeable in all areas, but not to the same extent as the Valar in their specific areas. Would that be Super-genius or just unknown (possibly "Nigh-Omniscient"?)
 
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