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Whilst perhaps not an inapt description, given how well he did vs Morgoth, it's just metaphor. Theoden was given a similar comparison, and he was felled quite easily.
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Lord of the Rings revisions
- Thread starter Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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Just got my physical copy of NOME, and it has a lot of pretty interesting stuff, though I'm unsure as to how much of it is relevant. I'll take my time with it, but I've already found some possible additions that could prove relevant.
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Read a little bit of NOME and it states Elves naturally move faster than humans and they have to slow down to interact with them, I suppose that can be added in Legolas profile.
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Does anyone anything concrete on which is stronger, Balrogs or Dragons?
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Balrogs are described as the greatest of Morgoth's weapons, and are Maiar spirits. However Balrogs have been 1v1 and slain by mighty Elves, whereas Dragons like Glaurung have overturned armies.
It's really a case by case thing in my opinion.
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During the War of Wrath, which had Balrogs, the Winged Dragons are also called Morgoths mightiest weapons, driving back the Host of the Valar led by Ancalagon. Morgoth was losing before that, which is why I asked.
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There is evidence to put some of the great dragons above Balrogs, given that the winged dragons and Ancalagon were the only force of Melkor capable of forestalling the host of Valinor, and given Glaurung's role in sweeping aside the armies of men and elves in the battle of Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
However, Tolkien isn't Dragon Ball, and it's hard to be certain about this sort of stuff, given the lack of direct comparison.
Balrogs have done remarkable feats, having harmed Ungoliant of all things, but are felled by Elf Lords, remarkably powerful ones, but even so.
Dragons are much the same, being capable of overturning armies of Elves and men, whilst being slain by mortal men, like Bard or Turin (albeit the second one is a massive pain to scale).
We'd need to take time to gather the cases together and discuss it, and right now, I'm working on the Valar, and more importantly, university.
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Out of curiosity, would people prefer if I took longer until I have time to make a detailed layout for the Valar's placement, or would they prefer if I just layed them out.
The Valar aren't particularly complicated compared to Melkor due to limited appearances, so it'd be a simple matter of saying who compares to who.
The Valar aren't particularly complicated compared to Melkor due to limited appearances, so it'd be a simple matter of saying who compares to who.
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But of course I wouldn't be including quotes etc if I did it like that.
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Yeah sure, I still haven't got to the volcano feat either
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Since I have the go ahead, I guess I'll do this quickly. I'll provide quotes at a later date if they're needed, but I'll be including a few where they're necessary.
The Valar
The descriptions of the battles against Melkor, makes it clear that the Valar are all somewhat within the same tier of power, as it is the Valar as a collective (minus Tulkas) that battled Melkor outside Arda, with only Manwë being given a degree of significance, yet it stands to reason that all of them could somewhat affect him.
However, there is a wide-gap between some of their member
The Aratar
The Valar are not equal, and we are given description of how the "Aratar" "The High Ones of Arda" are incomparably superior to all other Ainur, described as "passing beyond compare all other, whether of the Valar and the Maiar...".
Their number includes Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë.
These members of the Valar should therefore be considered far superior to their peers (I'll get to Tulkas), but we do then have some further internal divisions to go through, with Tolkien rather handily providing what is essentially a scaling chain for the Valar in the Silmarillion:
(NOTE: The term "might" is used to describe the Lords of the Valar, and "reverence" is initially used for the Ladies, leaving some of their number a bit hazy, but as might is later used to describe them in descending order later on, and the Aratar are described as chief in "power and reverence", it should be okay to infer that their rank in reverence, is also in might).
(NOTE 2: The Lords and Ladies of the Valar are only directly scaled in regards to gender, so in cases where other sources are not available, it's best to assume the husband and wives of the Valar are equal in might)
Manwë
As chief of the Valar, and the "Elder King" of Arda, descriptions given to him in the Silmarillion and other works makes it quite clear he is rather comparable to his brother Melkor (fighting him to an inconclusive result in the disputed accounts of Dagor Dagorath), such as in the Osanwe-Kenta, where the two examples given of the "Great Valar" are Melkor and Manwë.
For instance, in the Silmarillion, he is described as the "chief instrument" against Melkor in the Third Theme, where the discourse and harmony of the two clashing songs balanced out, giving evidence of his comparable power to Melkor.
Moreover, when Melkor is depicted as fleeing from the wrath of the Valar after the Breaking of the Lamps, Manwë's voice is given equal significance to Tulkas' footsteps, when Tolkien describes the fear Melkor felt, again suggesting his comparability.
In fact, according to Morgoth's Ring, one version of the lore stated "Melkor and Manwe were brethren in the thought of Eru, and the eldest of their kind, and their power was equal and greater than that of all others who dwelt in Arda.", although later versions seem to abandon this.
Lastly, Manwë is described as the mightiest of all the Lords of the Valar, automatically putting him at the top of the scaling chain for the Valar, outside of possibly the following.
Varda
Varda is described in a similar light as Manwë, with the two being the respective King and Queen of Arda after all. Whilst I can't find anything that directly states she was equal to her husband, the two are depicted as two halves of a whole, with her throne being level with his, and the two, when seated together, being able to hear and see everything in the world.
However, her debateable comparability to Manwë aside, she has some descriptions on her own that puts her within a similar tier regardless, with Melkor being outright described as fearing her more than anything, and her position as the greatest of the Ladies of the Valar, scaling her above all her "female" peers.
Ulmo
Described as the "next in might" to Manwë of the lords of the Valar. He isn't given too much more beyond that, but it is said that Melkor could not subdue the sea, making it possible that Ulmo is directly comparable to him in some capacity, although it's likely this is just referring to his superior control over the waters of Arda, but given Aulë could not stop his ravaging of the land, it is debateable.
Aulë - Yavanna
The next in might, I have little more to add, as the rest of their descriptions here are not really about scaling/tiering.
Tulkas
Tulkas is a strange one to scale, as we are outright told, which Valar scale in might, yet he is not included in the Aratar, and whilst this could be because he joined the Valar later than the rest, this seems unlikely, given the Aratar are described in power, not seniority.
However, that being said he is described as both the strongest and fastest of their number, meaning he is superior to all the other Valar in that regard, and likely all the other Ainur, given he physically overpower Melkor. However, a note should be made that Tulkas' striking strength is superior to all his other forms of AP.
Oromë
Outright described as physically inferior to Tulkas, (wih some versions saying only a little weaker) but he is described as the second most physically capable of their number.
More importantly, he is also described as being feared by Melkor making his possibly comparable, but in truth, the association with this fear to his hunting of Melkor's servants, and the fact he was the only active Valar in Middle Earth at the time, makes this debateable.
The others
After this it becomes a bit more iffy, as whilst a few more of the Valar are compared to each other directly, the rest are left unclear, and you'll have to group them under the Aratar/non-Aratar distinction.
In regards to the Aratar specifically, the non above-mentioned members of their rank should still be comparable to their above mentioned fellows, given their outright description as "peers" in might.
Conclusions on scaling
The generic Valar as they are okay in regards to tier in my opinion, as High 3A, Likely Low 2C is reflective of them being somewhat comparable to Melkor and the Aratar.
The Aratar in contrast should be at least likely low 2C, given both the sheer gap in power between them and their lesser peers, and possibly outright Low 2C given that several of their number can invoke fear in Melkor, but that will need to be debated below.
Moreover, Manwë should be outright Low 2C, given his ability to contest Melkor in power, and Tulkas should have outright Low 2C physicals.
Varda will need to be debated, as whilst evidence is available to suggest Varda is equal to Manwë, the same evidence could merely refer to equality in authority.
The Valar
The descriptions of the battles against Melkor, makes it clear that the Valar are all somewhat within the same tier of power, as it is the Valar as a collective (minus Tulkas) that battled Melkor outside Arda, with only Manwë being given a degree of significance, yet it stands to reason that all of them could somewhat affect him.
However, there is a wide-gap between some of their member
The Aratar
The Valar are not equal, and we are given description of how the "Aratar" "The High Ones of Arda" are incomparably superior to all other Ainur, described as "passing beyond compare all other, whether of the Valar and the Maiar...".
Their number includes Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë.
These members of the Valar should therefore be considered far superior to their peers (I'll get to Tulkas), but we do then have some further internal divisions to go through, with Tolkien rather handily providing what is essentially a scaling chain for the Valar in the Silmarillion:
(NOTE: The term "might" is used to describe the Lords of the Valar, and "reverence" is initially used for the Ladies, leaving some of their number a bit hazy, but as might is later used to describe them in descending order later on, and the Aratar are described as chief in "power and reverence", it should be okay to infer that their rank in reverence, is also in might).
(NOTE 2: The Lords and Ladies of the Valar are only directly scaled in regards to gender, so in cases where other sources are not available, it's best to assume the husband and wives of the Valar are equal in might)
Manwë
As chief of the Valar, and the "Elder King" of Arda, descriptions given to him in the Silmarillion and other works makes it quite clear he is rather comparable to his brother Melkor (fighting him to an inconclusive result in the disputed accounts of Dagor Dagorath), such as in the Osanwe-Kenta, where the two examples given of the "Great Valar" are Melkor and Manwë.
For instance, in the Silmarillion, he is described as the "chief instrument" against Melkor in the Third Theme, where the discourse and harmony of the two clashing songs balanced out, giving evidence of his comparable power to Melkor.
Moreover, when Melkor is depicted as fleeing from the wrath of the Valar after the Breaking of the Lamps, Manwë's voice is given equal significance to Tulkas' footsteps, when Tolkien describes the fear Melkor felt, again suggesting his comparability.
In fact, according to Morgoth's Ring, one version of the lore stated "Melkor and Manwe were brethren in the thought of Eru, and the eldest of their kind, and their power was equal and greater than that of all others who dwelt in Arda.", although later versions seem to abandon this.
Lastly, Manwë is described as the mightiest of all the Lords of the Valar, automatically putting him at the top of the scaling chain for the Valar, outside of possibly the following.
Varda
Varda is described in a similar light as Manwë, with the two being the respective King and Queen of Arda after all. Whilst I can't find anything that directly states she was equal to her husband, the two are depicted as two halves of a whole, with her throne being level with his, and the two, when seated together, being able to hear and see everything in the world.
However, her debateable comparability to Manwë aside, she has some descriptions on her own that puts her within a similar tier regardless, with Melkor being outright described as fearing her more than anything, and her position as the greatest of the Ladies of the Valar, scaling her above all her "female" peers.
Ulmo
Described as the "next in might" to Manwë of the lords of the Valar. He isn't given too much more beyond that, but it is said that Melkor could not subdue the sea, making it possible that Ulmo is directly comparable to him in some capacity, although it's likely this is just referring to his superior control over the waters of Arda, but given Aulë could not stop his ravaging of the land, it is debateable.
Aulë - Yavanna
The next in might, I have little more to add, as the rest of their descriptions here are not really about scaling/tiering.
Tulkas
Tulkas is a strange one to scale, as we are outright told, which Valar scale in might, yet he is not included in the Aratar, and whilst this could be because he joined the Valar later than the rest, this seems unlikely, given the Aratar are described in power, not seniority.
However, that being said he is described as both the strongest and fastest of their number, meaning he is superior to all the other Valar in that regard, and likely all the other Ainur, given he physically overpower Melkor. However, a note should be made that Tulkas' striking strength is superior to all his other forms of AP.
Oromë
Outright described as physically inferior to Tulkas, (wih some versions saying only a little weaker) but he is described as the second most physically capable of their number.
More importantly, he is also described as being feared by Melkor making his possibly comparable, but in truth, the association with this fear to his hunting of Melkor's servants, and the fact he was the only active Valar in Middle Earth at the time, makes this debateable.
The others
After this it becomes a bit more iffy, as whilst a few more of the Valar are compared to each other directly, the rest are left unclear, and you'll have to group them under the Aratar/non-Aratar distinction.
In regards to the Aratar specifically, the non above-mentioned members of their rank should still be comparable to their above mentioned fellows, given their outright description as "peers" in might.
Conclusions on scaling
The generic Valar as they are okay in regards to tier in my opinion, as High 3A, Likely Low 2C is reflective of them being somewhat comparable to Melkor and the Aratar.
The Aratar in contrast should be at least likely low 2C, given both the sheer gap in power between them and their lesser peers, and possibly outright Low 2C given that several of their number can invoke fear in Melkor, but that will need to be debated below.
Moreover, Manwë should be outright Low 2C, given his ability to contest Melkor in power, and Tulkas should have outright Low 2C physicals.
Varda will need to be debated, as whilst evidence is available to suggest Varda is equal to Manwë, the same evidence could merely refer to equality in authority.
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Some stuff on The Ainur
Was planning on saving this for the abilities of the verse as a whole later, but I'll get this out while I have time. (NOTE: This is an incomplete list, even for the specific topic, I'm merely getting this out there, given it's relevance)
Note: All of this is new info from Nature of Middle Earth (NOME), which I wanted to get out there. There's a lot more left, and to be frank, this is a months/year early teaser, which I wanted out, given I felt bad about my lack of progress on this.
Speed:
Nothing particularly new for their physical forms, but NOME has made it clear that the Ainur as a whole can, and I quote:
""... it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, "passed over the Sea", and appeared in Middle Earth"... They could go where they willed, and that is could be present at once at any point in Eä"
Their physical forms, moreover, did not limit this ability, as the Ainur as a whole could discard it instantly and remake it - "For their bodies were self-made. They houseless as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then re-clothe themselves."
The only limitation in the footnotes, was that they were subject to the limitations of Eru, meaning they could not exit Arda until its breaking, which is relevant only for indexing. Moreover, their physical forms cannot pass through solid objects "had the properties of material substances. were resisted by or offered resistance to other physical things"
Only Melkor "became at last bound to a bodily form", meaning he was the only one who cannot instantly shift to move where he willed, alongside the Istari (Sauron is mentioned as moving as a spirit after the downfall of Numenor for instance, even after he forged his Ring)
Dimensional stuff beyond my understanding
NOME quotes the Ainur as having been outside time
"The Valar entered into Eä and timme of free will... They can perceive nothing outside time save by memory of their existence before it began..." (NOTE: The Ainur in Eä cannot leave it, or perceive out it due to Eru, until Arda is broken)
"But where he permitted the Valar to descend into Time... when he permitted the Valar to descnd into time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)..."
"Indeed it is held that being themselves in Time they experienced the making as a new thing..."
Matter Manipulation?
The Valar, and subsequently the Maiar are described as having control over the material universe in its entirety as a collective, with obviously lower potency individually, and even less for the Maiar
"The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä (the material universe)"
"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material..."
Mind stuff
Telepathy is an innate ability for the Ainur, it's depicted quite regularly, even in the movies.
The Ainur could also break into the minds of men and elves (Sauron and Melkor love to do this), but the "good" Ainur would never do this willingly
"With regards to Elves and men Eru had made one absolute prohibition: the Valar were not to attempt to dominate the children, neither by force, nor fear nor pain, not even by the awe and reverence that their wisdom and overwhelming majesty might inspire if fully revealed"
"The minds of the Children were not open to the Valar (except by free will of the Children), and could not be invaded or violated by the Valar except with disastrous consequences: their breaking and enslaving, and the substitution in them of the dominating Vala as a God in place of Eru"
Minor note, but Eru is apparently resistant to attempts to see his thoughts
" The Valar... cannot of their own will "see" any part of His mind."
....
Was planning on saving this for the abilities of the verse as a whole later, but I'll get this out while I have time. (NOTE: This is an incomplete list, even for the specific topic, I'm merely getting this out there, given it's relevance)
Note: All of this is new info from Nature of Middle Earth (NOME), which I wanted to get out there. There's a lot more left, and to be frank, this is a months/year early teaser, which I wanted out, given I felt bad about my lack of progress on this.
Speed:
Nothing particularly new for their physical forms, but NOME has made it clear that the Ainur as a whole can, and I quote:
""... it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, "passed over the Sea", and appeared in Middle Earth"... They could go where they willed, and that is could be present at once at any point in Eä"
Their physical forms, moreover, did not limit this ability, as the Ainur as a whole could discard it instantly and remake it - "For their bodies were self-made. They houseless as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then re-clothe themselves."
The only limitation in the footnotes, was that they were subject to the limitations of Eru, meaning they could not exit Arda until its breaking, which is relevant only for indexing. Moreover, their physical forms cannot pass through solid objects "had the properties of material substances. were resisted by or offered resistance to other physical things"
Only Melkor "became at last bound to a bodily form", meaning he was the only one who cannot instantly shift to move where he willed, alongside the Istari (Sauron is mentioned as moving as a spirit after the downfall of Numenor for instance, even after he forged his Ring)
Dimensional stuff beyond my understanding
NOME quotes the Ainur as having been outside time
"The Valar entered into Eä and timme of free will... They can perceive nothing outside time save by memory of their existence before it began..." (NOTE: The Ainur in Eä cannot leave it, or perceive out it due to Eru, until Arda is broken)
"But where he permitted the Valar to descend into Time... when he permitted the Valar to descnd into time, to carry out in Eä (or reality)..."
"Indeed it is held that being themselves in Time they experienced the making as a new thing..."
Matter Manipulation?
The Valar, and subsequently the Maiar are described as having control over the material universe in its entirety as a collective, with obviously lower potency individually, and even less for the Maiar
"The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä (the material universe)"
"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material..."
Mind stuff
Telepathy is an innate ability for the Ainur, it's depicted quite regularly, even in the movies.
The Ainur could also break into the minds of men and elves (Sauron and Melkor love to do this), but the "good" Ainur would never do this willingly
"With regards to Elves and men Eru had made one absolute prohibition: the Valar were not to attempt to dominate the children, neither by force, nor fear nor pain, not even by the awe and reverence that their wisdom and overwhelming majesty might inspire if fully revealed"
"The minds of the Children were not open to the Valar (except by free will of the Children), and could not be invaded or violated by the Valar except with disastrous consequences: their breaking and enslaving, and the substitution in them of the dominating Vala as a God in place of Eru"
Minor note, but Eru is apparently resistant to attempts to see his thoughts
" The Valar... cannot of their own will "see" any part of His mind."
....
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Thanks for the endorsement, but I still would like some discussion on the Aratar and of Varda, as their scaling is somewhat contestable.
Moreover, I'm only providing information in my second post. I have little ability to assess the information by the standards of this wiki, at least in regards to stuff beyond basic abilities, and obvious things.
Moreover, I'm only providing information in my second post. I have little ability to assess the information by the standards of this wiki, at least in regards to stuff beyond basic abilities, and obvious things.
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Honestly, Tulkas might be the strongest Valar, even stronger than Morgoth, at least in sheer physical prowess. Tulkas was laughing whilst fighting Morgoth, and Morgoth never dared to encounter him on his own. If you count Dagor Dagorath, then Tulkas, alongside Eönwë and Húrin, are implied to be the guys that directly take down Morgoth as well.
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I agree with this, multiple accounts, and versions show Tulkas to have overpowered Melkor personally, and I have noted above. Though tbh, it's somewhat strange to consider we might have a character with High 3A, Low 2C rating, and a Low 2C via physicals. Nothing really weird, but just looks ugly.
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Any thoughts on the Aratar and Varda?
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Sauron erupting Mount Doom
vsbattles.fandom.com
6 megatons, a little bit underwhelming
Has the Mordor shaking one been calculated yet?
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I am not well-read enough about the subject to do anything except evaluate what all of you show me, and say if it seems reasonable or not. My apologies.
I do think that everything that you have shown so far seems reasonable though, and the information should preferably be included in our LOTR pages, with references included.
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Thank you for helping out.Sauron erupting Mount Doom
6 megatons, a little bit underwhelming
Has the Mordor shaking one been calculated yet?
@Damage3245 @Armorchompy @DMUA
Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?
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Varda probably is the most feared by Morgoth because of her light, which is essentially the light of the two trees and Silmarils, very potent against evil beings, so while she might not have the most raw power, she would be a hard counter against Morgoth.
I agree with everything else when it comes to the Aratar, admittedly Oromë being 2nd strongest in physical might could put him above Manwë and Ulmo, although that would be odd. Ulmo probably is above Varda since he wouldn't be affected by her light, I feel, same goes for Oromë.
Isn't low 2-C affecting space and time? I only ask this because after reading some of the Silmarillion, I'm not sure if the Ainur actually created the Universe. Their music created a "Vision", which they loved so much Eru then said "Eä" bringing the vision into reality, or making it "solid" is more accurate.
I do agree with at least 3-A thanks to the quote that all of the Valar individually have already a great command of the matter of the Universe. Them entering Eä and creating all the galaxies and stars more proof, and when it comes to their respective elements they have an even greater control of it than the others, also on a universal scale. Tolkien apparently said that the Valar are on par with Pantheons of Humab mythologies like the Greek ones, but that seems to just be a generalization, I'm not sure how strong those old legends are and I doubt Tolkien knew as well.
I agree with everything else when it comes to the Aratar, admittedly Oromë being 2nd strongest in physical might could put him above Manwë and Ulmo, although that would be odd. Ulmo probably is above Varda since he wouldn't be affected by her light, I feel, same goes for Oromë.
Isn't low 2-C affecting space and time? I only ask this because after reading some of the Silmarillion, I'm not sure if the Ainur actually created the Universe. Their music created a "Vision", which they loved so much Eru then said "Eä" bringing the vision into reality, or making it "solid" is more accurate.
I do agree with at least 3-A thanks to the quote that all of the Valar individually have already a great command of the matter of the Universe. Them entering Eä and creating all the galaxies and stars more proof, and when it comes to their respective elements they have an even greater control of it than the others, also on a universal scale. Tolkien apparently said that the Valar are on par with Pantheons of Humab mythologies like the Greek ones, but that seems to just be a generalization, I'm not sure how strong those old legends are and I doubt Tolkien knew as well.
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This is definitely possible, and it is something that requires a look at, since various materials do cover the music.
I have noticed it been stated that Eru gave the music life in NOME as well for instance.
But for the time being, what would you therefore have the Aratar at likely, or a solid Low 2C.
The possible 3A downgrade will need a look into later.
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Low 2-C requires creating, destroying, or recreating the space and time of an entire universe, yes. Only doing so with the physical matter of one is usually only 3-A.
Thank you for helping out.
Thank you for helping out.
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I would say 3-A unless there is any evidence they manipulate space and time on a universal scale. Maybe High 3-A if one can prove there is infinite matter in Eä. For something positive, NOME says that the "matter" of Eä isn't purely physical, but that there is a spiritual aspect of it as well, which is pretty hax.
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I'm not really able to give anything in depth thoughts in regards to the 3A discussion for some weeks (university is again rearing its ugly head), but I will definitely cover its materials after that period.
From what I can tell though TheMerchant66 has the right idea, and like he said, there is evidently more to the Valar than just material creation. Indeed, they at the very least existed outside of time beforehand, and view Eä as the "little kingdom".
Furthermore, it should be noted that, when Eru gives life or spirit to a creation, it doesn't necessarily mean he made it persay. Aulë for instance, made the dwarves, and Eru simply gave them a soul... well not simply, but you know what I mean.
From what I can tell though TheMerchant66 has the right idea, and like he said, there is evidently more to the Valar than just material creation. Indeed, they at the very least existed outside of time beforehand, and view Eä as the "little kingdom".
Furthermore, it should be noted that, when Eru gives life or spirit to a creation, it doesn't necessarily mean he made it persay. Aulë for instance, made the dwarves, and Eru simply gave them a soul... well not simply, but you know what I mean.
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@Goodyfresh @Colonel_Krukov @Newendigo @Legion350 @DarkDragonMedeus @Edenstar @InfiniteSped @GojiBoyForever @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
Would any of you be willing to help us out with this thread please?
Would any of you be willing to help us out with this thread please?
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I'm not sure. To repeat myself, I intend to look into this in-depth once my time is freed up, but I suppose this would make the most sense as of what we have now.
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I think 3-A sounds more reasonable yes.
Colonel_Krukov
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From what I've read 3-A seems reasonable, given the lack of mentioning Space-Time and such.
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Eru undoubtedly "gave being" to the design of Eä, but it is said that the Ainur "assisted in the general design" of Eä, and in the production of the "prime substance" (which is attached to an entire chapter dedicated to some brain aching metaphysics which is a subject I gladly abandoned in my teens).
Essentially meaning that the Valar had a part in the creation of Eä in its entirety, including time, as time only exists in Eä, with the point repeatedly being made that the Ainur existed outside of time before descending to Eä - "... he permitted the Valar to descend into time" + "The Valar entered into Eä and Time of free will"
What would this be?
(For the record I also found some stuff detailing Manwë as the most powerful Vala and spirit in NOME, so his position in the hierarchy is solid).
NOTE: The Maiar would also be relevant, as they assisted as well, albeit to lesser degrees.
Essentially meaning that the Valar had a part in the creation of Eä in its entirety, including time, as time only exists in Eä, with the point repeatedly being made that the Ainur existed outside of time before descending to Eä - "... he permitted the Valar to descend into time" + "The Valar entered into Eä and Time of free will"
What would this be?
(For the record I also found some stuff detailing Manwë as the most powerful Vala and spirit in NOME, so his position in the hierarchy is solid).
NOTE: The Maiar would also be relevant, as they assisted as well, albeit to lesser degrees.
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On a side note, NOME has this entire chaoter on metaphysics and theology, which would potentially unveil some stuff if anyone could decipher it.
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