Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eseseso.

 

[Tyranno223]

Eseseso makes sense to me.

Thank you. So Acausality Type 4 and Concept Manip Type 1 is okay?

 

[Antvasima]

Probably, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thank you. So Acausality Type 4 and Concept Manip Type 1 is okay?

Looks like so.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you all. I'll add them both to the page once the rest of Abilities and Resistances for the in-verse race are ready in the next revision.

The universal resistances I'll add to the unlocked pages and I'll bundle them with the next revisions for the locked pages.

 

[Eseseso]

Thank you. So Acausality Type 4 and Concept Manip Type 1 is okay?

Oh definitely.

 

[Experiment12]

I disagree with Type 5 Acausality, as being before/above time is just Type 4 (ask @Theglassman12), but the rest looks good.

I will reply to this, after I have finished my holiday.

 

[Experiment12]

I would probably support Acausality Type 5.

For the things I will discuss, especially Eru, is actually Outside of Cause and Effect, as shown in letter 192, Eru's position with Tolkien himself is the same, so we can concluded that Eru had met these qualifications, even more so Eru is in no way bound by Theme or Ainulindale, which of course includes cause and effect.
(https://gyazo.com/a1577955e2d2975901378198349b5e6d)
(https://gyazo.com/7ff8fb101deab937939c2301af6ad7ff)

 

[Tyranno223]

Minor Typing correction

So as it turned out, my typing for the Acausality described here is incorrect. Thanks to DDM for helping out there.

As noted in the prior revision, changes to both past AND future have no effect on the present for the setting of the Legendarium and all its characters (due to the únat/Laws imposed by Eru).

This would thus be Acausality (Type 2)

The Ainur abilities page

After a few months of compiling and checking over sources, I do believe I can present a largely complete draft for the Powers and Abilities of the Ainur.

Spoiler: Draft Page

Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now, to summarize, this page is meant to be a compilation for the general abilities of every member of the Angelic race within the Legendarium known as the Ainur. As such, certain abilities that are seemingly unique or at least not specified are not included.

Moreover, there is mention of the LotR magical system, something which does not have a page yet. This likely will not be an extensive page if it is ever made (The Legendarium is famous for its "Soft Magic" afterall, so it's fairly nebulous it terms of hard rules) and if it is not made, the appropriate abilities will be mentioned on relevant pages. In the case of the Ainur, this will be pretty much all of them for reasons noted in the draft, but it is still something not 100% unique to them so the specifics will not be mentioned.

Abilities such as Concept Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Acausality are already accepted. The justifications and references for all other abilities are detailed in the draft.

There is one point that confounds me though. Does the example of Baldur from God of War mean cases of absolute immortality (truly unkillable within the verse) mean that all offensive abilities are resisted to an extent?

 

[Eseseso]

Minor Typing correction

So as it turned out, my typing for the Acausality described here is incorrect. Thanks to DDM for helping out there.

As noted in the prior revision, changes to both past AND future have no effect on the present for the setting of the Legendarium and all its characters (due to the únat/Laws imposed by Eru).

This would thus be Acausality (Type 2)

The Ainur abilities page

After a few months of compiling and checking over sources, I do believe I can present a largely complete draft for the Powers and Abilities of the Ainur.

Spoiler: Draft Page

Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now, to summarize, this page is meant to be a compilation for the general abilities of every member of the Angelic race within the Legendarium known as the Ainur. As such, certain abilities that are seemingly unique or at least not specified are not included.

Moreover, there is mention of the LotR magical system, something which does not have a page yet. This likely will not be an extensive page if it is ever made (The Legendarium is famous for its "Soft Magic" afterall, so it's fairly nebulous it terms of hard rules) and if it is not made, the appropriate abilities will be mentioned on relevant pages. In the case of the Ainur, this will be pretty much all of them for reasons noted in the draft, but it is still something not 100% unique to them so the specifics will not be mentioned.

Abilities such as Concept Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Acausality are already accepted. The justifications and references for all other abilities are detailed in the draft.

There is one point that confounds me though. Does the example of Baldur from God of War mean cases of absolute immortality (truly unkillable within the verse) mean that all offensive abilities are resisted to an extent?

From what I can tell, everything looks good EXCEPT Type 2 Acausality, as nothing suggests that they lack a past and future.

 

[Tyranno223]

From what I can tell, everything looks good EXCEPT Type 2 Acausality, as nothing suggests that they lack a past and future.

The Type 2 was from the Universal Resistances revision. I just included it since it applies to all characters, not just Ainur.

Though I suppose it's not necessary for the page itself. It's just a bit awkward since we'd have both Acausality Type 4 for that specific page and type 2 for all keys of the character pages at the same time.

Edit: Actually they exist outside of time and space entirely so I'll just remove that addition to their key.

 

[Tyranno223]

From what I can tell, everything looks good EXCEPT Type 2 Acausality, as nothing suggests that they lack a past and future.

Oh wait, did you mean the typing change?

That's Type 2 because changes to either past or future have no effect on LotR characters. Type 1 is just changes to the past.

Type 2 is right according to DDM.

 

[Eseseso]

Oh wait, did you mean the typing change?

That's Type 2 because changes to either past or future have no effect on LotR characters. Type 1 is just changes to the past.

Type 2 is right according to DDM.

Aight then.

 

[Eseseso]

Oh wait, did you mean the typing change?

That's Type 2 because changes to either past or future have no effect on LotR characters. Type 1 is just changes to the past.

Type 2 is right according to DDM.

Btw, excellent job on the sandbox.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Minor Typing correction

So as it turned out, my typing for the Acausality described here is incorrect. Thanks to DDM for helping out there.

As noted in the prior revision, changes to both past AND future have no effect on the present for the setting of the Legendarium and all its characters (due to the únat/Laws imposed by Eru).

This would thus be Acausality (Type 2)

The Ainur abilities page

After a few months of compiling and checking over sources, I do believe I can present a largely complete draft for the Powers and Abilities of the Ainur.

Spoiler: Draft Page

Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now, to summarize, this page is meant to be a compilation for the general abilities of every member of the Angelic race within the Legendarium known as the Ainur. As such, certain abilities that are seemingly unique or at least not specified are not included.

Moreover, there is mention of the LotR magical system, something which does not have a page yet. This likely will not be an extensive page if it is ever made (The Legendarium is famous for its "Soft Magic" afterall, so it's fairly nebulous it terms of hard rules) and if it is not made, the appropriate abilities will be mentioned on relevant pages. In the case of the Ainur, this will be pretty much all of them for reasons noted in the draft, but it is still something not 100% unique to them so the specifics will not be mentioned.

Abilities such as Concept Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Acausality are already accepted. The justifications and references for all other abilities are detailed in the draft.

There is one point that confounds me though. Does the example of Baldur from God of War mean cases of absolute immortality (truly unkillable within the verse) mean that all offensive abilities are resisted to an extent?

Looks good to me.

 

[Tyranno223]

This is a minor adjustment so I'll just note it here quickly.

Aragorn is stated to have equipment which is just not mentioned in the Book. Unlike the Movie, he only ever uses Anduril and flaming torches as weapons. He probably did use other stuff prior to the Book events since he was involved in various conflicts, but we are never given details.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me as well.

 

[Tyranno223]

Looks good to me.

This seems fine to me as well.

Thank you both as usual. Sorry if this interrupted your vacation Ant.

Is 2 enough or is this an important enough revision to require more staff?

 

[Armorchompy]

You should probably add scans rather than only references, it's already a lot of text to parse and it's not feasible to go and check every single thing referenced to examine it

 

[Tyranno223]

You should probably add scans rather than only references, it's already a lot of text to parse and it's not feasible to go and check every single thing referenced to examine it

I did think about that, but the main issue with that is that's a lot of scans for each individual reference since I use each one twice or more and not each one is from the same paragraph.

I'll work on compiling the scans. There'll be quite a few for the record and I may need to expound upon details if they aren't clear enough due to wording.

 

[Tyranno223]

Here are the links to the Imgur scans. Is this sort of format alright for the page?






https://imgur.com/a/jE5EMpw
https://imgur.com/a/mT6bYRx
https://imgur.com/a/cVjRolT
https://imgur.com/a/gwUfK16
https://imgur.com/a/b4voBCY
https://imgur.com/a/BClGRQm
https://imgur.com/a/0QnVCUh

42. Is lacking a scan as I can't seem to find my old reference + it's a supportive one.

Immortality's justification is split up a bit between the description for (Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4 and 5), Regeneration (Low-Godly), Intangibility, Incorporeality and Non-Physical Interaction) and Common Resistances.

• This is probably worth wording under a note, but the scans, references, and justifications there are meant to emphasize the three forms of immortality in LotR

1. Elvish Immortality: Immortality within the confines of the world. As long as the world continues, the Elves cannot die.
2. Counterfeit Immortality: "Immortality" as conveyed by the Rings of Power (for mortals) and existence as a wraith. Essentially longevity + undeath.
3. True Immortality: Immortality beyond the confines of the world/universe. Truly immortal, one cannot experience a true death.

• The Ainur fall under the third. Their origins predate creation. They are utterly deathless, even when reduced to mere shadows of themselves. Their true life is spiritual, aka even if they "die", souls in LotR are invulnerable and cannot be destroyed. Their natural state is as a soul, thus they are naturally beyond any death, even bodily death (unless incarnated fully into the material, as noted in note 2, and even that is not true death).
  • I noted the indestructibility of souls in the last slot as that is the most relevant key for it. In that key, the Ainur have only ever lived as spirits, making it most relevant for that point.
  • Also, the note about the Creator being unable to destroy souls is not a genuine anti-feat. It is an example of logical omnipotence, but that is for a future revision.

 

[Armorchompy]

should be good

 

[Tyranno223]

should be good

Thanks. I'll add them once I get some spare time (had to burn the candle to get it out that quick).

Do you think the given justifications are okay at least?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[Armorchompy]

Thanks. I'll add them once I get some spare time (had to burn the candle to get it out that quick).

Do you think the given justifications are okay at least?

i don't know a lot of this stuff 100%, at a glance yes tho

 

[Tyranno223]

The Draft has its references supported by scans now. Also added a note regarding immortality's spread out justifications.

Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'm going to be busy for a while (not that long, a week maybe?), but I'll notify the appropriate staff what pages need to be unlocked when I'm back.

 

[Experiment12]

What about the new Tiering System revision, can it be applied to revise fictional cosmology, if so, maybe we should discuss LotR cosmology

 

[Tyranno223]

What about the new Tiering System revision, can it be applied to revise fictional cosmology, if so, maybe we should discuss LotR cosmology

Well tier 0 is still being debated.

R>F is the current reason for Low 1-C and shouldn't be too difficult to defend for 1-A.

The cosmology is quite simple from my understanding.

Material Univerese: High 3-A

Eä as a whole: Low 2-C

The totality of Subcreations: 2-A (not that this part matters for anything)

The Creation and Timeless Halls: R>F Eä, hence 1-A

Timeless Void: Literally nothingness, devoid of time or space. Unknown, likely 1-A (it takes the likes of Eru or the Ainur in their origin to affect it, but beings like an Eä-bound Morgoth can be banished to it. Eärendil even enters it in some drafts.

There may also be one more R>F between the Creation (aka the residence of Tolkien and authors within cosmology) and the Timeless Halls depending on how deep into Christian theology his notes get, but I'm not looking into it right now. Also, Ultima believes Eru is tier 0 under his suggested tier 0 system, so there's that too.

My next revision will probably cover either Elven or character abilities, not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Are the following changes acceptable, or should they be reverted?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ancalagon_the_Black?type=revision&diff=8391013&oldid=8337739

 

[Tyranno223]

Are the following changes acceptable, or should they be reverted?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ancalagon_the_Black?type=revision&diff=8391013&oldid=8337739

While not an unreasonable change by any means, they weren't discussed recently.

They should be reverted, but the topic is worth revisiting.

There was a debate about this a while ago, but I was personally against putting him at High 3-A. It would need to be discussed again and personally I'm no longer that against a possibly rating since the changes to the Last Alliance characters. Although there are parts of the suggestions I stil disagree with.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what would you suggest as a solution then?

Also, I reverted the edits I linked to above.

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. So what would you suggest as a solution then?

Also, I reverted the edits I linked to above.

I suppose if the person who made the changes would present their arguments on here, that would be good.

On an aside, I'll move the draft's details to a proper page soonish.

 

[Antvasima]

Hsharpe does not seem to have an accepted account in our forum.

 

[Tyranno223]

Hsharpe does not seem to have an accepted account in our forum.

Ah, well I suppose I'll look into the matter and bring it up as part of my next revision proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

He did apparently have an old unaccepted account, so I accepted it for him, but it is up to him to start using it.

 

[Tyranno223]

Powers and Resistances of the Ainur

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur The Ainur are the primordial angelic spirits made by Eru Ilúvatar in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Page has been made.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you for helping out.

No problem! I gave GarrianXD a message, just waiting on these.

• Gandalf
• Saruman
• Sauron
• Morgoth
• Balrogs (Lord of the Rings)
• Gothmog (Balrog)
• Arien
• Ilmarë
• Melian
• Ossë
• Eönwë
• Aulë
• Estë
• Irmo
• Mandos
• Manwë
• Nessa (The Silmarilion)
• Nienna
• Oromë
• Tulkas
• Ulmo
• Varda
• Vairë
• Vána
• Yavanna

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked those pages for you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Tyranno223]

I have unlocked those pages for you. Tell me here when you are done.

Should be done. I formatted the pages into tabs since pages like Sauron and Gandalf's are beginning to get cluttered.

I left most of the individual abilities of the "Within the confines of Eä" Keys in but unhighlighted since I plan to tackle individual abilities in my next revision (maybe all in one go, maybe Ainur first).