Lord of the Rings revisions

[TheMerchant66]

Creating time would be Uni+ and I feel that could be the case for the Ainur. I started the Silmarillion and in the preface written by Tolkien, he states the Ainur see Eä originally as a "Drama" a story being composed by someone else before descending into it.


On an unrelated note, in the same Preface he says that Númenór built not only the greatest fleet in history but commanded by Sauron could have ruined Valinor itself, keep in mind this is where the Valar, Maiar, and most of the Elves live in. While the Valar and Maiar probably couldn't do anything to the fleet since they are forbidden to attack men, Elves have no restriction, and the most powerful of them can fight Balrogs and other Maiar spirits, Just tnought that was an interesting statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Creating time would be Uni+ and I feel that could be the case for the Ainur. I started the Silmarillion and in the preface written by Tolkien, he states the Ainur see Eä originally as a "Drama" a story being composed by someone else before descending into it.

That seems like much better proof for Low 2-C, yes.

On an unrelated note, in the same Preface he says that Númenór built not only the greatest fleet in history but commanded by Sauron could have ruined Valinor itself, keep in mind this is where the Valar, Maiar, and most of the Elves live in. While the Valar and Maiar probably couldn't do anything to the fleet since they are forbidden to attack men, Elves have no restriction, and the most powerful of them can fight Balrogs and other Maiar spirits, Just tnought that was an interesting statement.

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Tyranno223]

Creating time would be Uni+ and I feel that could be the case for the Ainur. I started the Silmarillion and in the preface written by Tolkien, he states the Ainur see Eä originally as a "Drama" a story being composed by someone else before descending into it.


On an unrelated note, in the same Preface he says that Númenór built not only the greatest fleet in history but commanded by Sauron could have ruined Valinor itself, keep in mind this is where the Valar, Maiar, and most of the Elves live in. While the Valar and Maiar probably couldn't do anything to the fleet since they are forbidden to attack men, Elves have no restriction, and the most powerful of them can fight Balrogs and other Maiar spirits, Just tnought that was an interesting statement.

Great, so at least we can keep those ratings then.

On a sidenote, we should probably remove the strange divide between the embodied and unembodied Ainur. While we know the Ainur weakened, either literally or in terms of agency, overtime, there was no physical, spiritual power difference, since they can switch between the two at will.

 

[Tyranno223]

Though this could cause a potential uproar in ratings.

 

[Antvasima]

Great, so at least we can keep those ratings then.

Yes, but the justifications need to be adjusted accordingly.

On a sidenote, we should probably remove the strange divide between the embodied and unembodied Ainur. While we know the Ainur weakened, either literally or in terms of agency, overtime, there was no physical, spiritual power difference, since they can switch between the two at will.

Though this could cause a potential uproar in ratings.

Yes. It would. Perhaps we can separate their statistics of their original fully abstract and viewing creation as a story state, and their later state bound to Eä with a much lower displayed scale of power?

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, but the justifications need to be adjusted accordingly.


Yes. It would. Perhaps we can separate their statistics of their original fully abstract and viewing creation as a story state, and their later state bound to Eä with a much lower displayed scale of power?

Perhaps this would be best for now, until evidence is discovered that allows for a cleaner explanation. Essentially just making a change in key wording.

 

[Tyranno223]

On that note, the Valar should have their in Arda key upgraded to a solid 3B, via being able to hold significant influence over the material universe individually, with possibly some of the Aratar having a "3B possibly 3A" or solid 3A ranking, depending on how their Low 2C rating is handled, and Manwë being solid 3A vua Melkor, who could corrupt the entirety of the material universe, via the spreading of his power into the material (until his constant wasting of power diminishes him).

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know if that would work. Weren't the most powerful elves able to fight Morgoth's physical bound to Eä form evenly with only local less than tier 5 damage?

 

[Tyranno223]

I do not know if that would work. Weren't the most powerful elves able to fight Morgoth's physical bound to Eä form evenly with only local less than tier 5 damage?

By the time Fingolfin fought Morgoth, he had diminished himself severely by wasting his powers on corrupting Eä. By the end of the Wars against Morgoth, the Valar did not even deign to come in person to defeat him, and instead they sent Eönwë, a mere Maia, albeit one of the mightiest, and likely one of the few comparable to a Vala, but still only a Maia, to defeat Morgoth. This shows how far he had fallen form being the mightiest of the Ainur, and by all accounts, it was a simple matter for Eönwë to singlehandedly defeat him, after his armies had fallen.

Moreover, we already agreed on giving Morgoth an at least 6B (or whatever the results will be from the calcs) for when he faced Fingolfin.

 

[TheMerchant66]

I think I'd prefer to keep the divide tbh. The Ainurs true forms could freely act and change the music of thr Ainur like Melkor did, while within Eä they are now bound to its passage of time like a 3D being would be, and I can't find anything that suggests otherwise but I still need 2 finish the Silmarillion.

 

[Tyranno223]

I think I'd prefer to keep the divide tbh. The Ainurs true forms could freely act and change the music of thr Ainur like Melkor did, while within Eä they are now bound to its passage of time like a 3D being would be, and I can't find anything that suggests otherwise but I still need 2 finish the Silmarillion.

I'm for keeping it for now, but it isn't really supported. The only limitations put on the Ainur were done by Eru, when they were bound to Arda and its fate till it was unmade, no power reduction is implied, beyond the unclear one overtime, that may actually refer to the limitations put on their agency (it's unclear) in the world.

The most poignant example of the issue, comes from Tolkien's own notes, as it's mentioned that discarding their physical form, to return to their spiritual one is as easy as wearing clothing and taking it off.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what tiers and separations of statistics via keys should we apply here then?

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. So what tiers and separations of statistics via keys should we apply here then?

For the time being, nothing should be done, as we still need to clarify the nature of the divide, otherwise we end up with a High 3A, potentially Low 2C Elendil, which seems way too out there.

We need to clarify the matter further.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Further input is appreciated then.

I personally wouldn't mind an "Abstract | Bound to Eä" statistics key separation.

Alternately, we could simply see their physical manifestations as incapable of exercising anywhere near their full abstract power when their respective concepts make war with each other, presumably by Eru's enforcement of a law of reality.

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. Further input is appreciated then.

I personally wouldn't mind an "Abstract | Bound to Eä" statistics key separation.

Alternately, we could simply see their physical manifestations as incapable of exercising anywhere near their full abstract power when their respective concepts make war with each other, presumably by Eru's enforcement of a law of reality.

This would be best in lieu of other evidence in my personally opinion, at least for now.

@TheMerchant66, does this sound good for now?

 

[Tyranno223]

The Maiar (individuals)
The hierarchy of the Maiar is left a lot more vague than that of the Valar (which itself is far from detailed), and indeed, descriptions inform as that their might could vary widely from essentially low level spirits, to living elemental entities and angelic spirits.

So instead, I'll try and outline the basic ideas of where the individual Maia stand in relation to each other, and let people (please) debate the minutiae.

The "Chief" Maiar
Tolkien outlines that amongst the Ainur servants who followed the Valar, there were "some less, some well nigh as great as themselves...". (From the Silmarillion,) This rather evidently points to the existence of members of the Maiar who were likely comparable in might to the Valar themselves.

We are not given details as to who may be considered to count amongst this number, but what we do know is that among the Maiar, there were 2 who were considered "chief" amongst their ranks.

They were Eönwë and Ilmarë (accounted in Morgoth's Ring, and the Silmarillion)

Of course, a simple statement like that is somewhat lacking, so it is quite fortunate that such is well evidenced in the case of Eönwë, as he has been accounted to have been amongst the most martially apt of the Maiar. Indeed, his description notes him to have been

"banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" (Silmarillion)

Thus placing him at the top of the totem of martial prowess for the Ainur of Arda, albeit not necessarily power. What does put him at the top of the totem of power for the Maiar, is the fact that the Unfinished Tales makes it quite clear that it was his might alongside his skill, that made him ideal for the "War of Wrath" against Morgoth

"To the overthrow of Morgoth he [Manwë] sent his Herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people..."

The emphasis on lesser yet still "mighty", is quite evident for how powerful Eönwë was among the Maiar.

Moreover, there's the fact that if you take the above quote into account, and the fact the Silmarillion attests Eönwë removed the Silmarils from Morgoth's crown after he was bowed (after being a coward and begging for mercy, but even a coward would defend himself after assault), and the account from the "Peoples of Middle Earth" of Christopher's regret of removing Eönwë's personal defeat of Morgoth, it can be extrapolated that Eönwë personally defeated the weakened Morgoth, with seemingly little effort.

Of course, Morgoth was far reduced by this point (being harmed by the likes of Fingolfin) and was certainly not in the correct mind-set to resist with what was left of his might (begging for mercy does that), but the seeming ease with which Eönwë defeats him, only makes it clearer that he was certainly one of the chief powers of the Maiar, given Morgoth was likely still mightier than his servants at this time (with the possible exception of Sauron...)

Moreover, since Ilmarë is put in the same regard as Eönwë, she should likely be comparable, if not somewhat inferior, due to her lack of emphasis on martial affairs.

To conclude on this part, I believe it's safe to say these two were among the Maiar said to be peers of the Valar in might, and that they scale to at least the .

(And of course there's the earlier versions were Eönwë was the son of Manwë, and one of the possible candidates to slay Morgoth at Dagor Dagorath, but that's neither relevant, or canon).

The Sun and Moon - First Age Edition
Arien and Tilion were the Maiar chosen to guide the vessels of the Sun and Moon respectively (though the vessels and their shape are contested).

Of the two, Tilion notably appears weaker

For instance, the Silmarillion and Morgoth's Ring notes that the "flame of Anar [the Sun] scorched him", though of course, that could be the result of a difference in chosen form, as Arien was a "spirit of fire", while Tilion was a hunter of Oromë.

What's more poignant is Morgoth's response to their existence, as for Tilion, the Silmarillion notes that he

"assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him... but Tilion was victorious"

after an extended conflict mind you. In contrast, to Arien

"Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having no longer the power..."

Now mind you, this could certainly mean that Morgoth was weaker than Arien (which would certainly justify Eönwë's single-handed defeat of an even weaker version of him), but it could also mean that Morgoth literally lacked the power, having lost his ability to enter a bodiless form, as noted in a prior segment from NOME, and being implied in the next line, following his wasting of more power in corrupting the world and its inhabitants to fear the Sun...

"... his might passed into the and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth."

Regardless, the point becomes evident that Morgoth held servants whom he believed had enough might to attack Tilion, but not Arien, evidently showing a difference in might.

This puts Arien above Tilion, and potentially above a First Age Sauron, and Weakened Morgoth, potentially putting her into the nigh-Valar tier? This will need more input than just me though.

Tilion is simply fairly mighty among the Maiar, being capable of defeating seemingly powerful spirits of Morgoth (given he feared the Moon too, he would have spared some mightier servants), but nothing too special, he wouldn't have a particular place in the scaling chain.

The Queen of Doriath
Melian is another fairly impressive member of the Maiar, being held as both mighty amongst the Maiar, whilst holding feats to prove it.

For instance, when the Valar elected to send several Maiar guardians to guide the Elves to Valinor (at their free will) 5 were elected, with Melian as a 6th, their leader. Of these Maiar, it is said that they were the same individuals who would become the Istari, and just as their might was emphasised earlier from the extract from the Unfinished Tales, in NOME, it is said that the number was made up of

"...five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar) - with Melian (the only women, but the chief)

The emphasis on Melian as chief among the Maiar may perhaps only refer to rank, but it is possible/likely it refers to power, and regardless, she almost undoubtedly scales to them in power, considering the Valar specifically sent peers who could be considered as "great" to guide and protect the Elves from the forces of Morgoth, which were considerable, with Sauron and the Balrogs yet being active.

Beyond this meeting, Melian doesn't get too many statements of her power, but we do have one more major feat - her repulsing of Ungoliant.

Now then, do not mistake this as putting Melian above Ungoliant, as such would completely break scaling, given Ungoliant had just subdued a Morgoth who was still regarded as "... the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä" (from "of the Silmarils" in the Silmarillion), which obviously includes Melian. One needs to look at the context.

"... Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King Thingol... by the power of Melian she was stayed..."

Now such is indeed a feat, but now as great of one as one may initial think. To be frank, Ungoliant acts as an outright animalistic entity, and just as an animal, she appears to quite quickly flee from any sign of danger, likely as her great hunger (which the Silmarillion notes, was so great it not only lead her to eat her children, but possibly lead to her consuming herself) makes her fear losing any energy.

Such is admittedly speculation, but I believe it's a well-supported one, as when faced by the Balrogs, entities far weaker, if barely comparable to her (if even that), she fled

"Balrogs.... with their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight..."

Such is quite clear evidence of her cowardice, as in the face of even a modicum of stern resistance (note the text does not clarify if she was even injured), she flees.

That being said, such was a feat that took all the Balrogs to replicate, and while it's possible it could have taken less, it cannot be denied that Melian replicated a feat that, from what we know, took all the Balrogs to accomplish.

Overall, she is clearly considered mighty among the Maiar, being a peer or possible superior of the Istari, of whom the number includes Gandalf, whom even restricted to the body of an old man, could defeat a Balrog (with his power unveiled yes, but still in an old man's body), while she herself demonstrates a feat that may put her on par with the combined might of the Balrogs, although this would be a high-end.

Ossë and Uinen
Ossë and Uinen are not given much statement in regards to the placement in the hierarchy of the Maiar, but from the evidence given, we may extrapolate they were fairly mighty.

Ossë is regarded as a direct vassal of Ulmo, which is rather significant, as such places him above the mere servile roles most Maiar seem to adopt, as messengers or maids.

What's more useful, is the fact that he was regarded as

"the master of the seas that wash the shores of Middle-earth"

which appears to be a voluntary limitation, as it's mentioned in the immediate following that he

"He does not go in the deeps, but loves the coasts and the isles..."

Now all this sounds like fluff, and it kinda is, but it's useful fluff, as it's then stated in the Silmarillion's detailing of Ossë, that Morgoth

"....hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it..." (Silmarillion)

Thus implying Ossë's might over the waters surpassed Morgoth's own, which is rather impressive, and automatically places him in the upper echelons of the Maiar.

Indeed, Ossë's might was rather impressive, to the extent Morgoth desired to recruit him according to the Silmarillion, and he temporarily does.

"It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo... So it was that long ago there arose great tumults that wrought ruin to the lands"

It was not until his wife Uinen calmed him, that he repented and served Ulmo again. Speaking of Uinen, we have even less to go off of her, but what we do know is that she had a remarkable levels of authority over the waters of Arda, given she quite literally existed in all the waters of the surface

"Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky..."

Such alone implies a high standing among the Maiar, given that few have such high and lofty positions of authority as to claim being a "Lady of the Seas".

However, it must be said that, while we can extrapolate Ossë as being of the Maiar comparable to the Valar from Morgoth's regard for him, and his own inability to subdue him, it is quite telling such is only in one regard, and that Ossë lacks any real statement of his being mighty among the Maiar.

Of course there is legacy stuff, such as in the early versions of the Silmarillion, where he was portrayed as a Vala (alongside Uinen) somewhat opposed to Ulmo, but such is no longer canon.

Honestly, I personally view him as potentially being comparable to the Valar, but I have my doubts. Uinen is more cut and dry, as her high position, merely implies a degree of might among the Maiar, and she doesn't have much special directly going for her scaling wise beyond that.

To sum up
There are more members of the Maiar to cover, the Istari, Sauron and the Balrogs to say the least, but they are unique enough to deserve their own sections.

To sum up my personal thoughts on scaling:

Maiar comparable to the Valar should receive the flat High 3A, likely Low 2C ranking for their "pre-Eä" key, and a similar comparability again for what is agreed for their "in-Eä" key (which I believe should be At Least 3B, given individual Valar had great control over the material universe)

These Maiar would outright include:
Eönwë
Ilmarë

Possible inclusions may be:
Arien
Ossë

(Melian is iffy for reasons above)

Regarding the rest of the scaling, I apologise, but it really is rather vague. All we know is, they are fairly strong for the Maiar... Of whom we do not have enough information to make an average for, outside of pre-Eä.

What we can say is that:

The Istari (without their limitations) are considered to be mighty among the Maiar. Melian is a peer of them, and a possible superior.

Arien is a powerful Maia, whom even a diminished Morgoth seems to fear, and she is seemingly mightier than Tilion, who is undoubtedly mighty himself, but vaguely so, as besides being a martial Maia, due to being a hunter, little special emphasis is put on his might.

Ossë, without his one possible nigh-Valar tier feat, is given a lot of high authority for a Maia, but is completely unknown in the hierarchy, and the most we can say is that the Istari may be peers or superiors of him (only if the nigh-Valar feat is not considered), due to the lack of the text's emphasis on his might. But this is so flimsy.

We still have the Istari, the Balrogs and Sauron himself to cover, so changes to this may come later, in that.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry about this one, the Maiar are too damn vague in scaling beyond the top two.

On a sidenote is control over all the waters of the surface of the earth calcable? Arda is meant to be an ancient earth, and it should have a comparable amount.

If not that, what about a calc for control over the seas of the coasts of Middle Earth (a scale for Middle Earth should exist on the web).

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure about the scaling. Sorry.

Perhaps we should not include profile pages for character with more uncertain statistics?

What do you think @TheMerchant66 ?

 

[Tyranno223]

I am not sure about the scaling. Sorry.

Perhaps we should not include profile pages for character with more uncertain statistics?

What do you think @TheMerchant66 ?

I'd say keeping the pages is fine. We have a rough idea of what they are above, the only issue is deciding in relation to each other. Plus what exactly certain characters should scale to.

For instance do we take the statements of the Istari being mighty among the Maiar to put them above Maiar without such statements automatically?

Do certain Maiar scale to the Valar bazed on Morgoth fearing them (weakened mind you).

It's just deciding which tier they slot into.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you and Merchant should probably have a much better grip of these issues than I do.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: Can you list the other members who have been helpful in this thread previously, so I can send them notifications that request their continued help here?

 

[Tyranno223]

Besides Merchant66 and I

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan and Hellbeast are the other main contributors I believe.

Btw: Can you list the other members who have been helpful in this thread previously, so I can send them notifications that request their continued help here?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hellbeast

Would you be willing to help out with input here again please?

 

[TheMerchant66]

Sorry for not replying.

Yes, I agree with Abstract forms being stronger than they are in Eä, in general they could create concepts and "Visions" of a Universe. Once they were in Eä, they semed to be below Time, as they entered at the very beginning of it, whilst they were outside of it entirely before.


After reading the first part of the Silmarillion, I feel this is the scaling of the Valar albeit it was already covered already but nothing wrong with recapping


Tulkas>Manwë>Varda>Ulmo>Aulë>Oromë>Yavanna>Námo(Mandos)>Nienna>Irmo>Nessa>Vairê>Estë>Vána.


Tulkas basically the main reason why Morgoth screwed off and stopped messing around Arda, in fact Morgoth had the upper hand against all of them before he came and more or less put the fear of God into him, why he is not an Aratar eludes me. Some of his feats is "filling" Arda with his laughter and his anger scattering clouds and darkness like a mighty wind.


Manwë brother of Morgoth and closest to Eru and whom knows his plans the best. He is the most holy of the Valar and the first King of Kings.


Varda is his wife and her Light essentially the light of the Silmarils, capable of burning away evil itself. There can be made an argument to put her lower, but I feel she is presented as an equal to Manwë more than a lesser. She also creates and controls the innumerable stars of Eä and knows all of its regions.


Ulmo and his oceans posses a Echo of the original music of the Ainur and he and Manwë work the most closely of all the Valar, if not for Varda I would say he is most likely meant to be the equal to Manwë


Aulë is stated to have little less might next to Ulmo, and as Ulmo has control over all waters of the Earth, Aulë has control of all the "substance" of earth, from simple dirt to diamonds and what not.


Oromë was a bit difficult to put since physical wise he is said to be less than Tulkas and yet Morgoth was apparently stronger than him despite having the back up of the other Valar, albeit that might have just been in terms of creating Arda rather than fights, but it is said in Ainulindalë that Manwë directly confronted Morgoth and brought spirits both lesser and greater, so who knows. I decided to put him below "the big 3" and Varda, who is also a bit weird as already mentioned. He is also an Aratar.


Yavanna was the Wife of Aulë and seemed to be to Aulë as Varda is to Manwë, she more or less gives life to the Earth of Arda aka plants and trees. She is also an Aratar, the Eight greatest Valar besides Tulkas who seems to be an exception. I should mention that all the Valar so far are Aratar besides again Tulkas.


Námo is the Judge of the Halls of Mandos which in the lore is very important but besides that not much is said about him, so I put him here.


Nienna I put as the weakest Aratar since she seems to be primarily a healer.


Irmo is Námos brother and portrayed to be equals of sorts, albeit he is not an Aratar unlike his brother and sister, Nienna. For the record, the rest of the Valar from here on are not Aratar.


Nessa I put here because physically she seems to be very capable and a warrior of sorts, being the sister or Oromë after all and the wife of Tulkas. She is as swift as an arrow and can outrun deers.


The final 3 have not a lot of information, so I ranked them based on their stated relationships to other Valar. Vairê is the wife of Námo, Estë is the wife of Irmo, and Vána is the younger sister of Yavanna and while she is the wife of Oromë her powers seem to be merely causing flowrs to bloom and what not, Vairê weaves all moments in time in her "storied webs" across the Halls of Mandos and Estë is the giver of "Rest" which other Valar use to replenish themselves.



As for the Maiar, we know that there are many Maiar and the strongest of them were nigh-equals to that of the Valar, most likely all the named Maiar whom are also close companions to certain Valar are the ones who are meant to be nigh-equals:

Ilmarë and Eönwë are the Chief of the Maiar with both having a relationship with Varda and Manwë respectively: Ilmarë is Vardas Handmaid whilst Eönwë is Manwës herald and "in arms" no one surpasses him, I suppose that is meant to imply he is the strongest Maiar at the time or at least better in weapons than all of them.


Ossë I would say is next in strength since he is the vassal of Ulmo and more or less has control of all the seas that wash Middle earth, and caused great tumults in the sea that brought ruin to landmasses when Morgoth tried to make him join him. In general, he is the cause of raging storms, and Uinen is the one who usually calms his storms with her hair and she is his wife as well, with Numenoreans holding her in much reverence as a Valar and her hairs are spread across all of the water under the sky.


Next in power is Melian, who is outright stated to be akin to Yavanna herself "before the world was made" (unsure what this means) and the Valar leave their works for her to sing enchantments to said works. While her comparison is powerful, it seems to be more in terms of how she operates rather than pure power, but who knows. I only mention this for those who could argue for her to be greater than the other 4 already mentioned.


Next in strength would be Arien, a Maiar of fire who drove the Sun of the First age and who Morgoth feared and dared not get near her.


Next would be Tillion, whom drove the Moon and is stated to be the weaker of the two.


Olórin, later known as Gandalf alongside the other Istari, whom were Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards are stated to be peers, but there does seem to be a small hierarchy of power since Gandalf is stated to be the wisest of the Maiar and Saruman was envious of Gandalfs strength in their true forms. We really don't know much how they compare to the others, but considering all the hype the first 5 had and later Arien + Tillion were appointed to drive the Sun and Moon which were mighty tasks, I would say putting them here is fair.



Sauron is actually the hardest one to peg before he made the Ring, he was stated to originally be a Maiar of Aulë and mighty in the lore of Aulës Maiar. I'm not sure if this is said in the Silmarillion itself, but I've seen statements that claim he was the greatest of Aulës Maiar or at least greater than Saruman. I've also seen clains of him being a peer of Gandalf yet Gandalf was terrified of Sauron.


Sauron does have a statement saying he is the greatest of Morgoths servants, so he definitely scales from the Balrogs. One could scale him from Dragons like Ancalagon but tbh I have my doubts if that's true, from how the Winged Dragons and Dragons in general were presented they were essentially superweapons and pieces of Morgoth himself infused with the greatest of power, Ancalagon and the Winged Dragons repelled thr Host of the Valar which included Eönwë, whom were originally beating Morgoths armies which included Balrogs. But, that's another discussion entirely.


With the Ring and in his prime he does surpass Morgoth during the end of the First Age, which should put him at least as a peer of Eönwë and mosy likely has surpassed him entirely, and I mentionef earlier I believe all the named Maiar are most likely the Maiar whom are nigh-equal to the Valar to begin with.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry for not replying.

Yes, I agree with Abstract forms being stronger than they are in Eä, in general they could create concepts and "Visions" of a Universe. Once they were in Eä, they semed to be below Time, as they entered at the very beginning of it, whilst they were outside of it entirely before.


After reading the first part of the Silmarillion, I feel this is the scaling of the Valar albeit it was already covered already but nothing wrong with recapping


Tulkas>Manwë>Varda>Ulmo>Aulë>Oromë>Yavanna>Námo(Mandos)>Nienna>Irmo>Nessa>Vairê>Estë>Vána.


Tulkas basically the main reason why Morgoth screwed off and stopped messing around Arda, in fact Morgoth had the upper hand against all of them before he came and more or less put the fear of God into him, why he is not an Aratar eludes me. Some of his feats is "filling" Arda with his laughter and his anger scattering clouds and darkness like a mighty wind.


Manwë brother of Morgoth and closest to Eru and whom knows his plans the best. He is the most holy of the Valar and the first King of Kings.


Varda is his wife and her Light essentially the light of the Silmarils, capable of burning away evil itself. There can be made an argument to put her lower, but I feel she is presented as an equal to Manwë more than a lesser. She also creates and controls the innumerable stars of Eä and knows all of its regions.


Ulmo and his oceans posses a Echo of the original music of the Ainur and he and Manwë work the most closely of all the Valar, if not for Varda I would say he is most likely meant to be the equal to Manwë


Aulë is stated to have little less might next to Ulmo, and as Ulmo has control over all waters of the Earth, Aulë has control of all the "substance" of earth, from simple dirt to diamonds and what not.


Oromë was a bit difficult to put since physical wise he is said to be less than Tulkas and yet Morgoth was apparently stronger than him despite having the back up of the other Valar, albeit that might have just been in terms of creating Arda rather than fights, but it is said in Ainulindalë that Manwë directly confronted Morgoth and brought spirits both lesser and greater, so who knows. I decided to put him below "the big 3" and Varda, who is also a bit weird as already mentioned. He is also an Aratar.


Yavanna was the Wife of Aulë and seemed to be to Aulë as Varda is to Manwë, she more or less gives life to the Earth of Arda aka plants and trees. She is also an Aratar, the Eight greatest Valar besides Tulkas who seems to be an exception. I should mention that all the Valar so far are Aratar besides again Tulkas.


Námo is the Judge of the Halls of Mandos which in the lore is very important but besides that not much is said about him, so I put him here.


Nienna I put as the weakest Aratar since she seems to be primarily a healer.


Irmo is Námos brother and portrayed to be equals of sorts, albeit he is not an Aratar unlike his brother and sister, Nienna. For the record, the rest of the Valar from here on are not Aratar.


Nessa I put here because physically she seems to be very capable and a warrior of sorts, being the sister or Oromë after all and the wife of Tulkas. She is as swift as an arrow and can outrun deers.


The final 3 have not a lot of information, so I ranked them based on their stated relationships to other Valar. Vairê is the wife of Námo, Estë is the wife of Irmo, and Vána is the younger sister of Yavanna and while she is the wife of Oromë her powers seem to be merely causing flowrs to bloom and what not, Vairê weaves all moments in time in her "storied webs" across the Halls of Mandos and Estë is the giver of "Rest" which other Valar use to replenish themselves.



As for the Maiar, we know that there are many Maiar and the strongest of them were nigh-equals to that of the Valar, most likely all the named Maiar whom are also close companions to certain Valar are the ones who are meant to be nigh-equals:

Ilmarë and Eönwë are the Chief of the Maiar with both having a relationship with Varda and Manwë respectively: Ilmarë is Vardas Handmaid whilst Eönwë is Manwës herald and "in arms" no one surpasses him, I suppose that is meant to imply he is the strongest Maiar at the time or at least better in weapons than all of them.


Ossë I would say is next in strength since he is the vassal of Ulmo and more or less has control of all the seas that wash Middle earth, and caused great tumults in the sea that brought ruin to landmasses when Morgoth tried to make him join him. In general, he is the cause of raging storms, and Uinen is the one who usually calms his storms with her hair and she is his wife as well, with Numenoreans holding her in much reverence as a Valar and her hairs are spread across all of the water under the sky.


Next in power is Melian, who is outright stated to be akin to Yavanna herself "before the world was made" (unsure what this means) and the Valar leave their works for her to sing enchantments to said works. While her comparison is powerful, it seems to be more in terms of how she operates rather than pure power, but who knows. I only mention this for those who could argue for her to be greater than the other 4 already mentioned.


Next in strength would be Arien, a Maiar of fire who drove the Sun of the First age and who Morgoth feared and dared not get near her.


Next would be Tillion, whom drove the Moon and is stated to be the weaker of the two.


Olórin, later known as Gandalf alongside the other Istari, whom were Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards are stated to be peers, but there does seem to be a small hierarchy of power since Gandalf is stated to be the wisest of the Maiar and Saruman was envious of Gandalfs strength in their true forms. We really don't know much how they compare to the others, but considering all the hype the first 5 had and later Arien + Tillion were appointed to drive the Sun and Moon which were mighty tasks, I would say putting them here is fair.



Sauron is actually the hardest one to peg before he made the Ring, he was stated to originally be a Maiar of Aulë and mighty in the lore of Aulës Maiar. I'm not sure if this is said in the Silmarillion itself, but I've seen statements that claim he was the greatest of Aulës Maiar or at least greater than Saruman. I've also seen clains of him being a peer of Gandalf yet Gandalf was terrified of Sauron.


Sauron does have a statement saying he is the greatest of Morgoths servants, so he definitely scales from the Balrogs. One could scale him from Dragons like Ancalagon but tbh I have my doubts if that's true, from how the Winged Dragons and Dragons in general were presented they were essentially superweapons and pieces of Morgoth himself infused with the greatest of power, Ancalagon and the Winged Dragons repelled thr Host of the Valar which included Eönwë, whom were originally beating Morgoths armies which included Balrogs. But, that's another discussion entirely.


With the Ring and in his prime he does surpass Morgoth during the end of the First Age, which should put him at least as a peer of Eönwë and mosy likely has surpassed him entirely, and I mentionef earlier I believe all the named Maiar are most likely the Maiar whom are nigh-equal to the Valar to begin with.

I'll have a closer look at this later, since I'm going to bed, but the reason why I put Tulkas so low is because Tolkien is quite explicit about how the might of the Valar is ranked.

The Aratar are supreme in might, and multiple accounts mention the status of Manwë as the most powerful, with texts putting him on par with Melkor in some regard (the Letters imply an absolute equality, but that's one account of several).

Tulkas did change the tide, but that's more so because of his seeming physical superiority. Tulkas' advantage lies in his physical strength and speed, as the strongest and fastest of the Valar, and likely the descended Ainur. This is rather evident in how Tulkas physically overpowered Melkor, rather than any other option.

This is rather in line with Tolkien's portrayal of characters, as mighty, does not necessarily equate to physically powerful or vice-versa.

Indeed, Tulkas is the Champion of the Valar, akin to Thor or Heracles, but Manwë, akin to Zeus or Odin, is more powerful.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also, regarding Eönwë vs Sauron, the Unfinished Tales makes a point of the Valar sending lesser servants (the Istari) to deal with Sauron, implying Eönwë was simply too much.

Sauron being above Morgoth at the end of the First Age, also doesn't equate to being above Eönwë, since Eönwë is heavily implied to have single-handidly beaten that Morgoth, with seeming ease.

 

[TheMerchant66]

I'm unsure if Eönwë beating Morgoth still a thing in the published Silmarillion since in that version Morgoth basically begs for his life whilst in earlier drafts he does put up one last fight, albeit I digress since we dunno if Sauron surpassed Morgoth by a lot or by a small amount, albeit he did withstand that lightning blast semt by Manwë which I'll look into later.


I can agree with Eönwë being stronger than Sauron, however. Nothing is really said about Saurons strength when he was Mairon from what I've read besides being mighty and most likely above Saruman.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Whe reading the Silmarillion, what caught my eye is Erus final chord to end the discord of Melkor. It was stated to be deeper than the Abyss and higher than the Firmament, and that it pierced with the Light of Iluvatar, making it sound as a beam of sorts. Any way to quantify that? I'm guessing it's either the timeless Halls or even the Void itself.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Forgive me if this sound stupid, but would one of Tolkien's letter's which describes Sauron as being a Maiar of a far higher order than Gandalf and Saruman in origin qualify for Mairon? It would atleast imply that Sauron/Mairon is a high tier Maiar since you know - he's a Maiar of a far higher order

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out. You seem to have a good grasp of Tolkien's stories.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm unsure if Eönwë beating Morgoth still a thing in the published Silmarillion since in that version Morgoth basically begs for his life whilst in earlier drafts he does put up one last fight, albeit I digress since we dunno if Sauron surpassed Morgoth by a lot or by a small amount, albeit he did withstand that lightning blast semt by Manwë which I'll look into later.


I can agree with Eönwë being stronger than Sauron, however. Nothing is really said about Saurons strength when he was Mairon from what I've read besides being mighty and most likely above Saruman.

It's not in the Silmarillion, but it is implied in the Unfinished Tales to an extent, and the Peoples of Middle Earth talks about Christopher regretting its removal from the Silmarillion.

Sauron I intend to come back to later, but from what I recall, he does have some definitive statements besides comparisons to the Istari.

 

[Tyranno223]

Forgive me if this sound stupid, but would one of Tolkien's letter's which describes Sauron as being a Maiar of a far higher order than Gandalf and Saruman in origin qualify for Mairon? It would atleast imply that Sauron/Mairon is a high tier Maiar since you know - he's a Maiar of a far higher order

Sauron may be mightier than Gandalf, but at first, the two were equals at their origin. Saruman in comparison is said to have been of higher rank in society, but the material honestly makes him sound weaker (constant insecurity, Gandalf is the only one said to he an equal, etc).

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry for not replying.

Yes, I agree with Abstract forms being stronger than they are in Eä, in general they could create concepts and "Visions" of a Universe. Once they were in Eä, they semed to be below Time, as they entered at the very beginning of it, whilst they were outside of it entirely before.


After reading the first part of the Silmarillion, I feel this is the scaling of the Valar albeit it was already covered already but nothing wrong with recapping


Tulkas>Manwë>Varda>Ulmo>Aulë>Oromë>Yavanna>Námo(Mandos)>Nienna>Irmo>Nessa>Vairê>Estë>Vána.


Tulkas basically the main reason why Morgoth screwed off and stopped messing around Arda, in fact Morgoth had the upper hand against all of them before he came and more or less put the fear of God into him, why he is not an Aratar eludes me. Some of his feats is "filling" Arda with his laughter and his anger scattering clouds and darkness like a mighty wind.


Manwë brother of Morgoth and closest to Eru and whom knows his plans the best. He is the most holy of the Valar and the first King of Kings.


Varda is his wife and her Light essentially the light of the Silmarils, capable of burning away evil itself. There can be made an argument to put her lower, but I feel she is presented as an equal to Manwë more than a lesser. She also creates and controls the innumerable stars of Eä and knows all of its regions.


Ulmo and his oceans posses a Echo of the original music of the Ainur and he and Manwë work the most closely of all the Valar, if not for Varda I would say he is most likely meant to be the equal to Manwë


Aulë is stated to have little less might next to Ulmo, and as Ulmo has control over all waters of the Earth, Aulë has control of all the "substance" of earth, from simple dirt to diamonds and what not.


Oromë was a bit difficult to put since physical wise he is said to be less than Tulkas and yet Morgoth was apparently stronger than him despite having the back up of the other Valar, albeit that might have just been in terms of creating Arda rather than fights, but it is said in Ainulindalë that Manwë directly confronted Morgoth and brought spirits both lesser and greater, so who knows. I decided to put him below "the big 3" and Varda, who is also a bit weird as already mentioned. He is also an Aratar.


Yavanna was the Wife of Aulë and seemed to be to Aulë as Varda is to Manwë, she more or less gives life to the Earth of Arda aka plants and trees. She is also an Aratar, the Eight greatest Valar besides Tulkas who seems to be an exception. I should mention that all the Valar so far are Aratar besides again Tulkas.


Námo is the Judge of the Halls of Mandos which in the lore is very important but besides that not much is said about him, so I put him here.


Nienna I put as the weakest Aratar since she seems to be primarily a healer.


Irmo is Námos brother and portrayed to be equals of sorts, albeit he is not an Aratar unlike his brother and sister, Nienna. For the record, the rest of the Valar from here on are not Aratar.


Nessa I put here because physically she seems to be very capable and a warrior of sorts, being the sister or Oromë after all and the wife of Tulkas. She is as swift as an arrow and can outrun deers.


The final 3 have not a lot of information, so I ranked them based on their stated relationships to other Valar. Vairê is the wife of Námo, Estë is the wife of Irmo, and Vána is the younger sister of Yavanna and while she is the wife of Oromë her powers seem to be merely causing flowrs to bloom and what not, Vairê weaves all moments in time in her "storied webs" across the Halls of Mandos and Estë is the giver of "Rest" which other Valar use to replenish themselves.



As for the Maiar, we know that there are many Maiar and the strongest of them were nigh-equals to that of the Valar, most likely all the named Maiar whom are also close companions to certain Valar are the ones who are meant to be nigh-equals:

Ilmarë and Eönwë are the Chief of the Maiar with both having a relationship with Varda and Manwë respectively: Ilmarë is Vardas Handmaid whilst Eönwë is Manwës herald and "in arms" no one surpasses him, I suppose that is meant to imply he is the strongest Maiar at the time or at least better in weapons than all of them.


Ossë I would say is next in strength since he is the vassal of Ulmo and more or less has control of all the seas that wash Middle earth, and caused great tumults in the sea that brought ruin to landmasses when Morgoth tried to make him join him. In general, he is the cause of raging storms, and Uinen is the one who usually calms his storms with her hair and she is his wife as well, with Numenoreans holding her in much reverence as a Valar and her hairs are spread across all of the water under the sky.


Next in power is Melian, who is outright stated to be akin to Yavanna herself "before the world was made" (unsure what this means) and the Valar leave their works for her to sing enchantments to said works. While her comparison is powerful, it seems to be more in terms of how she operates rather than pure power, but who knows. I only mention this for those who could argue for her to be greater than the other 4 already mentioned.


Next in strength would be Arien, a Maiar of fire who drove the Sun of the First age and who Morgoth feared and dared not get near her.


Next would be Tillion, whom drove the Moon and is stated to be the weaker of the two.


Olórin, later known as Gandalf alongside the other Istari, whom were Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards are stated to be peers, but there does seem to be a small hierarchy of power since Gandalf is stated to be the wisest of the Maiar and Saruman was envious of Gandalfs strength in their true forms. We really don't know much how they compare to the others, but considering all the hype the first 5 had and later Arien + Tillion were appointed to drive the Sun and Moon which were mighty tasks, I would say putting them here is fair.



Sauron is actually the hardest one to peg before he made the Ring, he was stated to originally be a Maiar of Aulë and mighty in the lore of Aulës Maiar. I'm not sure if this is said in the Silmarillion itself, but I've seen statements that claim he was the greatest of Aulës Maiar or at least greater than Saruman. I've also seen clains of him being a peer of Gandalf yet Gandalf was terrified of Sauron.


Sauron does have a statement saying he is the greatest of Morgoths servants, so he definitely scales from the Balrogs. One could scale him from Dragons like Ancalagon but tbh I have my doubts if that's true, from how the Winged Dragons and Dragons in general were presented they were essentially superweapons and pieces of Morgoth himself infused with the greatest of power, Ancalagon and the Winged Dragons repelled thr Host of the Valar which included Eönwë, whom were originally beating Morgoths armies which included Balrogs. But, that's another discussion entirely.


With the Ring and in his prime he does surpass Morgoth during the end of the First Age, which should put him at least as a peer of Eönwë and mosy likely has surpassed him entirely, and I mentionef earlier I believe all the named Maiar are most likely the Maiar whom are nigh-equal to the Valar to begin with.

Regarding your take on the Valar, I've already addressed Tulkas, but everything else seems give or take fine.

The only thing to caution I'd say in regards to scaling Varda or Ulmo as equals to Manwë. While they are definetly comparable, and Varda in particular is made out to be an equal, I can't find a quote directly stating Varda was an equal to Manwë in power, and several materials exist putting Manwë as the most powerful in a singular description.

I'd also against the idea that the named Maiar may alll possibly be the ones nigh equal to the Valar. It makes sense in case like Arien or Ossë due to the material around them, Maiar like Tilion or Curumo frankly have nothing going for them to be at that level. Even Olorin only really compares in terms of wisdom.

I'd also caution against rating the Maiar based on their control over the material world. Ossë has shown the most potential destructive feats, and has a high position as a vassal, rather than a servant, but we know Eönwë is his superior in might despite only being a Herald with dominion over weapons and skill.

I'd say taking note of statements is important to scaling them. Of course within reason, but just feats alone can be misleading since we know the Maiar can do potentially do greater feats, especially the ones that scale near the Valar.

Personally, I put it like this at the moment (with my details beinf noted above)

Eönwë

Ilmarë

Arien (emphasis is put on her might, and her untouchability by the servants of Sauron

Ossë/Uinen (high end, although I'm cautious of scalijg Uinen to Ossë)

Melian (high end)

Melian (low end/Istari (the Istari are said to be mighty among the Maiar repeatedly, something not even Ossë is called, although a high end would put him above them)

Ossë/Uinen (low end)

Tilion

Sauron I'll cover at another date with the Istari. He seems to have a lot of possible material.

 

[TheMerchant66]

When it comes to Tulkas portayal, would that matter all that much in a conventional sense? Yes, Tulkas doesn't have the abilities to shape Arda, but when it comes to pure combat he pretty much could beat any of the Valar 1v1, Morgoth didn't even fight Tulkas he just left when he heard he was coming, but idk. I suppose in a theological POV he isn't the mightirst within his pantheon, but in a conventional sense he can overpower any of his peers 1v1, which I think is what's more important regarding our discussions. I especially don't think he is below Mandos and Nienna, for example, but since they are Aratar one can say they are.


Eönwë is above Sauron during the first age definitely, skimmed into the Silmarillion and in the rings of Power section When Sauron was confronted by Eönwë he practically begged for pardon out of fear. I also did not know Christopher Tolkien said that regarding Eönwë vs. Morgoth, so that's good to know. I suppose a prime Sauron isn't even close to Eönwë, then.



I shouldn't have used the words peer for Ulmo and Varda, I should have said close in power to Manwë instead, but yes I agree with Manwë being the strongest of the Valar besides maybe Tulkas. There is actually a statement in the Silmarillion which is when Manwë first confronted Melkor when they arrived on Arda for the first time that he called upon spirits "greater and lesser" but afaik nothing elaborates on this, wonder your thoughts.


I should have added that in regards to Ossë Morgoth wanted him on his side and even promised that if Ossë joined him he would become strong enough to overthrow Ulmo himself, which implies a high level of power, which is why I put him above Arien + his spouse can calm him with her own power, so I feel they are comparable.


What do you think of Melian? Her being outright compared to Yavanna I feel can peg her much higher, maybe even behind only Eönwë, no other Maiar has a statement like that.

 

[Tyranno223]

When it comes to Tulkas portayal, would that matter all that much in a conventional sense? Yes, Tulkas doesn't have the abilities to shape Arda, but when it comes to pure combat he pretty much could beat any of the Valar 1v1, Morgoth didn't even fight Tulkas he just left when he heard he was coming, but idk. I suppose in a theological POV he isn't the mightirst within his pantheon, but in a conventional sense he can overpower any of his peers 1v1, which I think is what's more important regarding our discussions. I especially don't think he is below Mandos and Nienna, for example, but since they are Aratar one can say they are.


Eönwë is above Sauron during the first age definitely, skimmed into the Silmarillion and in the rings of Power section When Sauron was confronted by Eönwë he practically begged for pardon out of fear. I also did not know Christopher Tolkien said that regarding Eönwë vs. Morgoth, so that's good to know. I suppose a prime Sauron isn't even close to Eönwë, then.



I shouldn't have used the words peer for Ulmo and Varda, I should have said close in power to Manwë instead, but yes I agree with Manwë being the strongest of the Valar besides maybe Tulkas. There is actually a statement in the Silmarillion which is when Manwë first confronted Melkor when they arrived on Arda for the first time that he called upon spirits "greater and lesser" but afaik nothing elaborates on this, wonder your thoughts.


I should have added that in regards to Ossë Morgoth wanted him on his side and even promised that if Ossë joined him he would become strong enough to overthrow Ulmo himself, which implies a high level of power, which is why I put him above Arien + his spouse can calm him with her own power, so I feel they are comparable.


What do you think of Melian? Her being outright compared to Yavanna I feel can peg her much higher, maybe even behind only Eönwë, no other Maiar has a statement like that.

Tulkas is undoubtedly the strongest of the Valar, but it is quite literally made very clear he isn't the most powerful. The Silmarillion makes a point of putting him outside the Aratar, a group defined by power, alongside majesty. Multiple accounts of Tolkien refer to Manwë as the most powerful, not Tulkas. Sure Tulkas makes Melkor feel afraid, and sure he physically overpowered him, but that's only physically, otherwise Tulkas becomes the strongest of the Ainur, which is outright wrong. Moreover, multiple people have made Melkor feel afraid, including Arien, who despite possibly being nigh-valar tier, should not be close to his level of power at all.

I know it looks weird, but that's why I'm proposing putting his physical stats as seperate to his overall tier, he's clearly the strongest physically speaking, but he isn't the overall most powerful. When it comes to a battle in songs of power (like Finrod vs Sauron), or in contests of non-physicsl power, it's likely Tulkas would do far less well, especially as the Silmarillion points out how his prowess is in physicals and not much else.

Again, it's kinda like Odin vs Thor or Heracles vs Zeus. Thor and Heracles are stronger (in some depictions), but Zeus and Odin are more powerful.

I'll look at the other stuff later, sorry I'm a but busy.

 

[Tyranno223]

When it comes to Tulkas portayal, would that matter all that much in a conventional sense? Yes, Tulkas doesn't have the abilities to shape Arda, but when it comes to pure combat he pretty much could beat any of the Valar 1v1, Morgoth didn't even fight Tulkas he just left when he heard he was coming, but idk. I suppose in a theological POV he isn't the mightirst within his pantheon, but in a conventional sense he can overpower any of his peers 1v1, which I think is what's more important regarding our discussions. I especially don't think he is below Mandos and Nienna, for example, but since they are Aratar one can say they are.


Eönwë is above Sauron during the first age definitely, skimmed into the Silmarillion and in the rings of Power section When Sauron was confronted by Eönwë he practically begged for pardon out of fear. I also did not know Christopher Tolkien said that regarding Eönwë vs. Morgoth, so that's good to know. I suppose a prime Sauron isn't even close to Eönwë, then.



I shouldn't have used the words peer for Ulmo and Varda, I should have said close in power to Manwë instead, but yes I agree with Manwë being the strongest of the Valar besides maybe Tulkas. There is actually a statement in the Silmarillion which is when Manwë first confronted Melkor when they arrived on Arda for the first time that he called upon spirits "greater and lesser" but afaik nothing elaborates on this, wonder your thoughts.


I should have added that in regards to Ossë Morgoth wanted him on his side and even promised that if Ossë joined him he would become strong enough to overthrow Ulmo himself, which implies a high level of power, which is why I put him above Arien + his spouse can calm him with her own power, so I feel they are comparable.


What do you think of Melian? Her being outright compared to Yavanna I feel can peg her much higher, maybe even behind only Eönwë, no other Maiar has a statement like that.

For the following two things I don't really have anything to add. Although I will say Sauron will need a closer look at, since his possible scaling to Ancalagon (notably Sauron's Ring can only be unmade by greater beings than him, and Gandalf claims not even Ancalagon could melt the Ring), could make him of a similar, if lower tier to Eönwë in his prime.

Ossë I'm of two minds with. He is undoubtedly powerful among the Maiar, and the only reason I don't outright agree with you, is because he has a lack of material around him. It's been outright stated that the Istari were very powerful among the Maiar, with Melian being their peer and possible superior. Arien too has statements, and even Tilion can be compared. Ossë exista in a vacuum, where he is either near the top of the Maiar, or somewhere below the Istari. I'll concede to the majority here, since I cannot decide.

Could you share that statement regarding Melian? I seem to have missed it.

 

[Antvasima]

So do either of you currently have any solid ideas for how to properly tier the character profile pages?

 

[Tyranno223]

So do either of you currently have any solid ideas for how to properly tier the character profile pages?

Nigh-Valar tier Maiar should scale to the normal Valar in both pre and in Eä keys.

The other pre-Eä Maiar should keep their current rating.

Depending on Ossë's placement, the unbound Istari and Maiar on their tier scale above whatever his feat is calc'd at.

Otherwise, characters below that/if Ossë's placement is put above the Istari, they scale to Gandalf's calc.

All that needs to be decided is the placement of the Maiar.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Does anybody here have any suggestions for how we should scale the Maiar?

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Does anybody here have any suggestions for how we should scale the Maiar?

Merchant66 and I have two different perspectives that we are currently discussing on the thread, and hopefully we'll be able to come to a conclusion. However, alternative perspectives would not be a bad thing either.