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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

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So I'll start off the new thread with a revision for the Ainur "Within the confines of Eä" this time, or at least the Valar and Greater Maiar.

Tier 3 reaffirmation
The Valar (and those who scale to them) are objectively tier 3, with individual members of the Valar being able to affect the entire universe as a whole, and when taken as a group, they have complete and utter control.

“The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe).” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIV, The Visible Forms of the Valar and Maiar
  • Individual members of the Valar have great control over the entire universe.
  • It is almost complete as a united council as they would altogether have total control over each domain

This second part is important, as "complete" control refers to an ability to control the universe down to every individual concept. No single Vala or Maia has sway over all the concepts that the Ainur designed the universe with, as they each have their own domain.

"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: III Powers of the Valar

Each Vala (and Ainu) has their area of specialty that they assisted with creating the universe in. The Valar can thus affect the entire universe (hence their great individual command over Eä) but they only
  1. Hold control over the material in general
  2. Hold direct sway over the concepts their domains fall under
They should be "3-A", or at minimum least, "At Least 3-B" with the Aratar (who we noted as being far above the lesser Valar to the point they are "beyond compare") being "likely" or solidly "3-A". However, this is only if the bottommost point is not accepted.

“Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth.” - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • For extra stuff, the Ainur made the material universe, aka Eä

The Greater Maiar - Reaffirming scaling to the Valar
“And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves” - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
“With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar” - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

We have currently scaled certain members of the Maiar to the Valar with these statements alone, but some additional support is worth applying.

“But the Eldar held that “spirits”, the more as they had more native inherent power, could emit their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily upon other spirits, or other incarnate persons (via their fëar), but also in the case of great spirits (such as the Valar or greater máyar) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of bodies normally necessary in the case of “fairondi” or incarnates” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIII, Spirit
  • A statement regarding the ability of the Ainur to exert their power over things. This is from Text 1 of Tolkien's writings on Spirit.
  • The Greater Maiar (Mayar is another way to spell it) and the Valar are directly grouped together in regards to their ability to exert the influence/power on things.
  • They are thus posited as comparable in their ability to affect things.

“The Valar and greater Máyar were held to have made for themselves real bodies – ascertainable by Incarnates by all their senses, and occupying space; though since maintained by their true selves indestructible – in the sense that garments may be removed or repaired. The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIII, Spirit

  • This is text 2
  • Again, referring to the ability of the Ainur to exert their native power over things. The Valar and Greater Maiar are again noted as comparable, with the Valar being described as merely being the most powerful of the Greater Maiar as chief.

An infinite universe?
We have addressed the status of the LOTR universe as being akin to our own real universe (at least in regards to non-named things). However, language seems to posit the LOTR universe as being infinite in space and not just time.

“It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space” - Letter 328

While we don't get many descriptions of the wider universe beyond Arda, the language used in Tolkien's one bit of exposition on the size of the universe seems to posit it as "limitless" and thus infinite.

A similar language is used in an abandoned draft of the Silmarillion from "Morgoth's Ring", which calls the universe measureless.

"Measureless as were the regions of Ea" - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed - II

Conclusion.
The Valar can affect the entire universe as individuals, meaning they should be either 3-A or At least 3-B, with the ones scaling above the Lesser Valar being likely 3-A or solidly 3-A.

The Greater Maiar scale to the Lesser Valar due to being comparable to them. This is different from their current ratings, which is "at most" scaling.

The universe of LOTR seems to be potentially infinite. If accepted, the above should be High 3-A.
 
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Hellbeast said:
Hmm I see, I think I'd prefer it as an "At Most" rating tbh
Click to expand...
Well it's slightly off topic, but I can see the merit there. Eönwë and Ilmarë are the only ones described as "chief" among the Maiar, so I believe they should solidly scale. For the others, we could see some "At Most" stuff retained for them, but we'd need to overview the evidence, as characters like Sauron can potentially scale to a lot of people.

Finrod manages to duel him in "song magic battle" for long enough for there to be an extended exchange of blows/verses, but Finrod nearly gets killed by orcs. That is 100% an outlier, as Finrod is an Noldor Lord (and those guys can fight Balrogs to a certain extent), but it's still notable.

I'd like to pass this current revision through before dealing with the minutia of which Maiar specifically scale though.
 
Tyranno223 said:
So I'll start off the new thread with a revision for the Ainur "Within the confines of Eä" this time, or at least the Valar and Greater Maiar.

Tier 3 reaffirmation
The Valar (and those who scale to them) are objectively tier 3, with individual members of the Valar being able to affect the entire universe as a whole, and when taken as a group, they have complete and utter control.

“The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe).” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIV, The Visible Forms of the Valar and Maiar
  • Individual members of the Valar have great control over the entire universe.
  • It is almost complete as a united council as they would altogether have total control over each domain

This second part is important, as "complete" control refers to an ability to control the universe down to every individual concept. No single Vala or Maia has sway over all the concepts that the Ainur designed the universe with, as they each have their own domain.

"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: III Powers of the Valar

Each Vala (and Ainu) has their area of specialty that they assisted with creating the universe in. The Valar can thus affect the entire universe (hence their great individual command over Eä) but they only
  1. Hold control over the material in general
  2. Hold direct sway over the concepts their domains fall under
They should be "3-A", or at minimum least, "At Least 3-B" with the Aratar (who we noted as being far above the lesser Valar to the point they are "beyond compare") being "likely" or solidly "3-A". However, this is only if the bottommost point is not accepted.

“Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth.” - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • For extra stuff, the Ainur made the material universe, aka Eä

The Greater Maiar - Reaffirming scaling to the Valar
“And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves” - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
“With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar” - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

We have currently scaled certain members of the Maiar to the Valar with these statements alone, but some additional support is worth applying.

“But the Eldar held that “spirits”, the more as they had more native inherent power, could emit their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily upon other spirits, or other incarnate persons (via their fëar), but also in the case of great spirits (such as the Valar or greater máyar) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of bodies normally necessary in the case of “fairondi” or incarnates” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIII, Spirit
  • A statement regarding the ability of the Ainur to exert their power over things. This is from Text 1 of Tolkien's writings on Spirit.
  • The Greater Maiar (Mayar is another way to spell it) and the Valar are directly grouped together in regards to their ability to exert the influence/power on things.
  • They are thus posited as comparable in their ability to affect things.

“The Valar and greater Máyar were held to have made for themselves real bodies – ascertainable by Incarnates by all their senses, and occupying space; though since maintained by their true selves indestructible – in the sense that garments may be removed or repaired. The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: XIII, Spirit

  • This is text 2
  • Again, referring to the ability of the Ainur to exert their native power over things. The Valar and Greater Maiar are again noted as comparable, with the Valar being described as merely being the most powerful of the Greater Maiar as chief.

An infinite universe?
We have addressed the status of the LOTR universe as being akin to our own real universe (at least in regards to non-named things). However, language seems to posit the LOTR universe as being infinite in space and not just time.

“It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space” - Letter 328

While we don't get many descriptions of the wider universe beyond Arda, the language used in Tolkien's one bit of exposition on the size of the universe seems to posit it as "limitless" and thus infinite.

A similar language is used in an abandoned draft of the Silmarillion from "Morgoth's Ring", which calls the universe measureless.

"Measureless as were the regions of Ea" - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed - II

Conclusion.
The Valar can affect the entire universe as individuals, meaning they should be either 3-A or At least 3-B, with the ones scaling above the Lesser Valar being likely 3-A or solidly 3-A.

The Greater Maiar scale to the Lesser Valar due to being comparable to them. This is different from their current ratings, which is "at most" scaling.

The universe of LOTR seems to be potentially infinite. If accepted, the above should be High 3-A.
Click to expand...
This looks good to me.
 
I agree with this, the 3-A part

It was written slowly and with great care for detail, & finally emerged as a Frameless Picture: a searchlight, as it were, on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of limitless extensions in time and space”
Click to expand...
this is hardly enough for High 3-A and it is under the same class as, limitless sky and the likes
 
Tyranno223 said:
Limitless extensions is the notable part. It implies both time and space extend limitlessly.

The wording is specific.
Click to expand...
Surrounded by the light of limitless extensions space and time, is flowery.
it is not much different from "surrounded by limitless extension of the starry sky"
 
PrinceofPein said:
Surrounded by the light of limitless extensions space and time, is flowery.
it is not much different from "surrounded by limitless extension of the starry sky"
Click to expand...
It's flowery yes, but it's meant to be a descriptive piece. It's an explicit description of Arda being but a snapshot within a limitlessly extending universe.

Tolkien writes in a manner that comes off as flowery at times, but it is quite clear on what he's conveying.

Your example is far more meaningless in comparison. Saying the sky is limitless is incomparably more nothing to saying X is surrounded by limitless space and time.
 
For a point of comparison.

Tolkien simplified says "Arda is surrounded by limitless amounts of space and time."

Your example says "the sky is limitless".

Both describe, but one is far more explicit about describing the state of things in an objective way.

One simply says there is limitless sky. This is a purely flowery description, that provides us with little detail. What of the sky is limitless? What is the context?

The other one gives us context. It specifically describes Arda's place within the universe. It makes it clear that we are specifically talking about space and time in regard to what is endless. Arda is but a small snapshot in a universe with endless space and time.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Tolkien also thought about the implications of his universe from a physical and philosophical perspective. He wouldn't have written such a direct description of "limitless space and time" if he didn't mean it.
Click to expand...
There is one more, yes it doesn't use the word "dimensional" but uses the word "reality" as a dimension.
 
As far as elves scaling to the Maiar goes, perhaps some discrepancies could be explained by their power gradually decreasing after the destruction of the Trees, due to the light of Valinor fading over time. A potential solution could include multiple keys based on Ages.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
As far as elves scaling to the Maiar goes, perhaps some discrepancies could be explained by their power gradually decreasing after the destruction of the Trees, due to the light of Valinor fading over time. A potential solution could include multiple keys based on Ages.
Click to expand...
The weakening of the Ainur is something that comes from canon, but it's rather nuanced. For one, the commentary can both suggest that it was either a literal weakening, or a weakening in the sense that Eru's restrictions became tighter.

However, there are several issues with it regardless, as:
  • The weakening was not pronounced in the First Age, where most of the Ainur vs Eldar confrontations took place,.
  • Certain Ainur actually grew stronger over time, such as with Sauron who grew stronger from the First to Second Age (even without the Ring)
  • The weakened keys (if they were literally weakened) cover a period of time where the Ainur did not act (outside of Sauron and the Istari who already have keys), making them too irrelevant + lacking in feats for the key to matter.
It likely will come to pass that certain Elves will receive First Age scaling to universal (High 3-A or just 3-A aside), but we can reduce the issues by making it an "At Most" rating from how we judge the Maiar's scaling. Luckily, the later Ages see the Eldar be described as explicitly growing weaker (with exceptions like Glorfindel), so this shouldn't carry over to cause issues. Plus every Eldar who scaled to the potential "Greater Maiar" would already be in Valinor (by death or departure) with only one possible exception.

Also, it's very possible scaling changes may just resolve the issue on its own.

My current plan is to compile the reasons for why we currently have specific Maiar classified as "Greater Maiar" and present the evidence in the discussion thread first, to see what the consensus is on which Maiar still deserve the classification. Eönwë and Ilmarë would be the exceptions, due to being "chief" among the Maiar, aka the greatest of the Maiar. As the greatest Maiar, they are thus solidly Greater Maiar and would thus scale directly to the Valar. All other potential Greater Maiar would be "At Most" in regards to scaling, as their positions would be far less secure.


Edit: Oh, if you meant just the Elves weakening, then yeah, like I said above, their weakening over time does resolve it. Multiple Age keys might be an idea for certain Eldar like Galadriel.
 
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Sorry, I should have specified. I was referring to the Elves. Fortunately for scaling purposes, the only really top-tier elf still around in the Third Age was Galadriel (and Glorfindel, since even his reincarnation was on par with all of the Nazgul including the Witch-king, and he took down a Balrog in his earlier life). Elrond I'm not sure about. Galadriel at least scales to a weakened Sauron due to being crucial in his defeat during the Necromancer storyline in The Hobbit, and it's possible that earlier on she was far stronger. She was, after all, of the same uber-elf bloodline as Finrod and Feanor.

I agree that there's really no other way around some of the Elves scaling to Greater Maiar other than just...accepting that they do. Finrod put up a good magical fight against First Age Sauron, Fingolfin wounded Morgoth multiple times, and Feanor was at least on the same level of Fingolfin physically (they each have statements that put them as the strongest elf physically, but Feanor was magically capable of creating the Silmarils, which could harm Morgoth). It's unclear where Luthien scales physically, but her hax could at least affect Sauron and obviously Morgoth. Ecthelion would probably also be in the top-tier Elf category due to holding his own somewhat against Gothmog, who Morgoth regarded as one of his strongest servants and was capable of harming Tree-amped Ungoliant along with the other Balrogs.

Melian should absolutely be regarded as one of the strongest Maiar. Her Girdle was so powerful that Ungoliant herself couldn't pierce it, and it required a Silmaril-amped Carcharoth or Beren driven by a "doom greater than her power," (likely Iluvatar's intervention) to pierce it. That's a piece of evidence for the Silmarils being at least comparable to the Trees (along with Morgoth keeping them for himself while willingly letting Ungoliant drink the power of the Trees and Varda's star-vats).

Arien should also be regarded as one of the strongest Maiar, given that even Morgoth himself felt the need to shield himself from her power.

It seems that there's some significant overlap between the strongest elves, the strongest Maiar, and the Valar. The power of the Silmarils is somewhere in that range and could provide a useful scaling reference for beings like Carcharoth, Earendil, and Ancalagon, that either used a Silmaril in battle or directly survived their burning power. The Silmarils in the Iron Crown burning Morgoth's skin can serve as a baseline for their power.
 
Yeah, the strongest Elves consistently can exhange blows in forms of magic and powerful weaponry against the Maia. I think Elrond and Cirdan are above Glorfindel since they were given one of the 3 Rings because, just like Galadriel, they were the greatest Elves on Middle-Earth during the 3rd age.

I'm not sure if Elves like Galadriel actually weakened, at least not until she rejected the One Ring saying how she has been diminished. Galadriel is called the greatest Elf on Middle-Earth when Glorfindel was around, who gained a huge power up and was almost as strong as a Maia from Valinor (unknown who, but I like to assume the Istari)

I got the impression Galadriel>Gandalf the Grey>Glorfindel from the texts I've read, Galadriel is implied being the strongest of the White Council, she was pretty much portrayed as Melian lite by LOTR complete with her own Girdle and silver haired husband.

I personally still think it's best to just assune the Ainur when they descended upon Arda did get weakened, unless we accept something like "at most high 3 A" for the strongest Elves.

I do wanna mention that weapons and magic does seemingly let people hit above their own weight classes (Sam vs. Shelob good example) so maybe the verse can have say 3A swords?


I agree with Melian being one of the strongest Maia. She repelled Ungoliant even before she nade her Girdle, her domain of Doriath made the Sindar Elves all become almost as strong as Elves from Aman, and she was even called "Akin to Yavanna before the World was made" not sure how to exactly interpret that.


With the Silmaril Carcaroth went thru the Girdle and also tied with Huan in a battle to the death, the same Huan who defeated Sauron albeit with some help from Lúthien. So, a Silmaril used in some offensive manner can allow one to defeat a Maia such as Sauron from the First Age.


Here's the quote from Tolkien about the Ainurs potential power diminishing from the shaping of the world in case anyone wants a refresher

The Valar ‘fade’ and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once ‘achieved’, has become part of the ‘Music in being’. Only Eru may or can alter the ‘Music’. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range fo the Pelori to a great height….
(MORGOTH’S RING, p. 401)

Keyword there is "impotent" which according to merriam webster

not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : HELPLESS

Tolkien says raising the Pelori was the last great act of power done by them directly as well.

I forgot to mention Arien, I'm unsure whrre she ranks. She has great feats but no real hype outside of Morgoths ring calling her thr best Maiden of Varda (Melian>Ilmarë?) Even in the Index for the Published Silmarillion Eöwnë is called "One of the most powerful Maia" Arien (and all the other Maia tbf) are just called "A Maia"
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Galadriel is called the greatest Elf on Middle-Earth when Glorfindel was around, who gained a huge power up and was almost as strong as a Maia from Valinor (unknown who, but I like to assume the Istari)
Click to expand...
It's certainly possible, but the Istari are all individually considered "mighty" for even the Maiar. I think he should get something like a "Likely higher" but still scale off the Balrogs unfortunately. It's quite low for how I would like him to be, considering how great he is.

TheMerchant66 said:
I got the impression Galadriel>Gandalf the Grey>Glorfindel from the texts I've read, Galadriel is implied being the strongest of the White Council, she was pretty much portrayed as Melian lite by LOTR complete with her own Girdle and silver haired husband.
Click to expand...
Gandalf seems to be higher, at least from my reading. For instance, in discussing who could beat Sauron if they had the Ring, only Gandalf the Grey had a 50/50 chance. Elrond and Galadriel were considered to have less of a chance.

TheMerchant66 said:
I personally still think it's best to just assune the Ainur when they descended upon Arda did get weakened, unless we accept something like "at most high 3 A" for the strongest Elves.
Click to expand...
It certainly would not have been for their descent. Their weakening happened around the First to Second Ages, and I have my own stuff to comment there.

I'm currently in favour of the "at most" approach for the Elves, but it wouldn't apply to more than Fingolfin, Luthien, and Feanor.

TheMerchant66 said:
I do wanna mention that weapons and magic does seemingly let people hit above their own weight classes (Sam vs. Shelob good example) so maybe the verse can have say 3A swords?
Click to expand...
If applicable, yeah, it seems likely. We already have Anduril at High 7-A for hurting Last Alliance Sauron for example.

TheMerchant66 said:
I agree with Melian being one of the strongest Maia. She repelled Ungoliant even before she nade her Girdle, her domain of Doriath made the Sindar Elves all become almost as strong as Elves from Aman, and she was even called "Akin to Yavanna before the World was made" not sure how to exactly interpret that.
Click to expand...
She also repels Ungoliant, although she was likely already weakening from hunger and her battle with Morgoth and the Balrogs. Melian is definitely up there, with her being the original leader of the Istari, who as I mentioned, were already considered "mighty" for members of the Maiar.

TheMerchant66 said:
With the Silmaril Carcaroth went thru the Girdle and also tied with Huan in a battle to the death, the same Huan who defeated Sauron albeit with some help from Lúthien. So, a Silmaril used in some offensive manner can allow one to defeat a Maia such as Sauron from the First Age.
Click to expand...
Huan had a lot of help. Luthien blinded and fatigued Sauron with her power. Still physically comparable though, so yeah, I agree on the Silmaril front.

TheMerchant66 said:
Here's the quote from Tolkien about the Ainurs potential power diminishing from the shaping of the world in case anyone wants a refresher

The Valar ‘fade’ and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once ‘achieved’, has become part of the ‘Music in being’. Only Eru may or can alter the ‘Music’. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range fo the Pelori to a great height….
(MORGOTH’S RING, p. 401)

Keyword there is "impotent" which according to merriam webster

not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : HELPLESS

Tolkien says raising the Pelori was the last great act of power done by them directly as well.
Click to expand...
It's rather curious here, because their inability to affect things comes from the fulfillment of the Music. It can mean that they outright weakened, but I have problems with that.

For instance, we know Sauron was outright mightier at the start of the Second Age than the First, and more importantly, we know that the last major "demiurgic" action of the Valar was not actually the last major action that the Ainur performed/could perform, since:
  • All of Beleriand sinks from a conflict between the Host of the Valar and Morgoth's armies.
  • We know the Valar still had significant control over matter and the universe even past the Pelori, since Varda crafts new stars and constellations (like the Sickle of the Valar)
  • The descriptions of their control over the matter of the universe describes the Valar following the arrival of the Elves into Valinor (the above description follows a discussion on the Elves reaching Valinor, and is succeeded by an example of the Valar's material control through their creation of bodies mirroring the "incarnates", aka Elves and Men).
This alone already means that the Valar and Greater Maiar solidly scale for Years of the Trees (with our Valar + Maiar profiles so far all being based on pre-First Age periods for their Within Eä keys, minus exceptions like the Istari), and no seperate statements of weakening appear for the later ages.

The same passage from Morgoth's Ring also has a following text as well, which provides an explanation. The Ainur grew impotent as they became increasingly unwilling to move beyond the frame of the music.

"The Valar were like architects working with a plan 'passed' by the Government. They became less and less important (structurally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work - not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything - save by counsel.)" - note, the last part as a statement applies both ways, less power to act due to being weakened, or because their role was over.

The idea of them being unable/unwilling to move beyond the music is supported by stuff like "The Nature of Middle-Earth", where XI: LIVES OF THE NÚMENÓREANS sees the Valar (namely Manwë) specifically consult Eru for an act that is outside the music (as all incarnates, especially men, were).
"Long life and Peace were the two things that the Edain asked for when the Valar offered them reward at the fall of Thangorodrim. Peace was readily granted; long life not so readily, and only after Manwë had consulted Eru."

Indeed, the impotency of the Ainur may be literal, but impotent can also mean unable to take effective action; helpless or powerless. They are very restricted in how they act (which is a weakness to be covered), with the ÓSANWE-KENTA noting this repeatedly in regards to Manwë and the Valar. For instance:

"Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose."

"Manwë could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise."

"Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwë. If Manwë had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending “good”, he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force."

Therefore, I personally find the evidence that they became impotent via "restraint" more compelling, rather than literal weakening. It also explains why Sauron was still so potent, as he just ignores all rules, just as Morgoth is stated to in the ÓSANWE.

"Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do." - axani means laws for context

Regardless, the fact that the universal statement came following the Pelori means it applies to the Valar as we currently have them, during their active years. The Valar and co were largely inactive following the creation of the "Sickle of the Valar" (minus granting Numenoreans long life and doing "dooms" and stuff), so we wouldn't need a key for their weakened selves (if they were weakened). The Maiar are another thing entirely, but only Eonwe and Thorondor do anything combat wise while unrestricted. Heck, the fact that the universal statement comes after the Pelori can actually mean the Valar (and relevant parties) were even higher in that scaling for the past.

But as I wrote, I prefer to just handwave the topic as its not relevant profile wise (unless someone corrects me on that point I suppose).
TheMerchant66 said:
I forgot to mention Arien, I'm unsure whrre she ranks. She has great feats but no real hype outside of Morgoths ring calling her thr best Maiden of Varda (Melian>Ilmarë?) Even in the Index for the Published Silmarillion Eöwnë is called "One of the most powerful Maia" Arien (and all the other Maia tbf) are just called "A Maia"
Click to expand...
I believe she shouldn't outright scale, but you can get it from Morgoth being apparently unable to touch her during her ascent. I personally prefer it to be more of a range weakness, as Morgoth was pouring more and more of himself into Arda alone, but I'd need to look into that.

Also, while we are using Morgoth's Ring, it needs to be extracts from his later or final essays (unless supporting evidence). Is that line from one of those? Because if so, I personally have the published Silmarillion take precedence, but that line does correlate with that description, so it works to put her in that grouping.
 
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We should also compile a list of beings that would scale to the Silmarils, which have the feat of injuring Morgoth and being regarded as more valuable/potent by both him and Ungoliant than the Trees themselves. Carcharoth solidly scales, for one, which would also make Huan and Sauron scale physically.
 
Antvasima said:
@Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66 @NaturalDestroyer

So what are your current conclusions here?
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Well the High 3-A revision seems to be largely accepted, although PrinceofPein has yet to respond to my rebuttal.

Our current discussion is a mix of who should scale, and if additional keys are necessary.
NaturalDestroyer said:
We should also compile a list of beings that would scale to the Silmarils, which have the feat of injuring Morgoth and being regarded as more valuable/potent by both him and Ungoliant than the Trees themselves. Carcharoth solidly scales, for one, which would also make Huan and Sauron scale physically.
Click to expand...
Yeah, plus Sauron already has decent reason to scale due to being the greatest of Melkor/Morgoth's Maiar. Although are you arguing for a solid scaling like Ilmare and Eonwe, or the "at most" scaling I suggest for the potential "Greater Maiar"?
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Well the High 3-A revision seems to be largely accepted, although PrinceofPein has yet to respond to my rebuttal.

Our current discussion is a mix of who should scale, and if additional keys are necessary.

Yeah, plus Sauron already has decent reason to scale due to being the greatest of Melkor/Morgoth's Maiar. Although are you arguing for a solid scaling like Ilmare and Eonwe, or the "at most" scaling I suggest for the potential "Greater Maiar"?
Click to expand...
There could be a strong argument for solid scaling, statements aside, since he put up a fight against Huan, who ~Silmaril-amped Carcharoth.

Ancalagon should also get a "possibly 3-A" since he fought Earendil, who was also enhanced by a Silmaril, and he also fought Thorondor, who was among the strongest of Manwe's servants and physically injured Morgoth.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
There could be a strong argument for solid scaling, statements aside, since he put up a fight against Huan, who ~Silmaril-amped Carcharoth.
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Well, I can certainly see the merit there. The Silmarillion: OF BEREN AND LÚTHIEN even outright says

"Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him." after the werewolf ate it.

NaturalDestroyer said:
Ancalagon should also get a "possibly 3-A" since he fought Earendil, who was also enhanced by a Silmaril, and he also fought Thorondor, who was among the strongest of Manwe's servants and physically injured Morgoth.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure here. Eärendil only has the Silmaril on his brow, and it's never mentioned or used in an offensive manner (minus the natural detriment from the Silmaril's light for evil things).

I think a "likely far higher" rating is better here, as we don't see the Silmaril used in the same way Carcharoth uses it. Plus, we have some scaling issues from having Ancalagon at that level.

On a side note, we might want to move the scaling talk to the discussion thread. This might go on for a while, which would flood the revision thread with too many posts.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Surrounded by the light of limitless extensions space and time, is flowery.
it is not much different from "surrounded by limitless extension of the starry sky"
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I meeeeeaaaan jury's still out on whether our universe is limitless, all we know for certain about its size is that there's a radius of 46.1 billion light years in which we can see it atm. So referring to "starry sky" and "extensions of space and time" as "limitless" is a bit of an and/or situation when it comes flowery language vs literal descriptor
 
I just found some evidence for Ainur, Immortality Type 8 & 9.



"However, while cooking Eä, Ainur became attached to him" (He has Type 8 Immortality qualified in vsb).



"But they will not lose their true existence unless previously weakened". This means that it has weakened, the whereabouts of the real Ainur has not been found. It might qualify for Immortality Type 9.

Immortality

The concept of immortality in Arda is very complex, because it differs in nature between the races. Usually, however, it refers to the type of life possessed by...
tolkiengateway.net tolkiengateway.net



What's your responses? @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @Hellbeast
 
• Why is Ainur bound by all the concepts that are Present in-Eä? As we know before, that Ainur is the Holy Spirit in the form of an abstraction that is present thanks to the Majesty of Eru Ilúvatar. Ainur views Eä as drama, because there are differences in the quality of the 2 Superstructures, namely Timeless Hall's and Eä–both of which apply something called metafiction, a simplification of Reality>Fiction. When Ainur was sent to solve problems in a mortal reality, they were also equipped with Physical Bodies. So, the main point of the question is; their existence which should be a non-physical entity, becomes an entity that is bound to a physical body, that is what makes Ainur bound to Causal Principles, Fundamental Concepts, and other things to Eä. • Immortality Type 8 and Type 9, is Ainur appropriate? Obviously, even the Elven Race. When the Elven Race and the Angels died, they would be sent to the Mandos Hall to be judged. This means that even though physical things are tied to Eä, metaphysical things always lead/depend on secondary Reality which applies metafictional aspects in it, which we call the Hall of Mandos. This allows Ainur to continuously reincarnate, and each of these metaphysical things will depend on the Mandos Hall. As long as the Mandos Hall exists, there is no such thing as death. Death is just a meaningless definition. When their souls are released from the mortal things that represent the "curse", they are officially freed from all the notions that are applied in Eä.
 
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