Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread

[Tyranno223]

The magic thing is a bit weird, I can think of other verses where we've decidedly not done that, but it's a minor point so I'll cede since it's purely for indexing.

I'll make a note in the justification that it's not "usable" magic and purely for indexing, although I'll add that Legolas probably knows some for his heritage and age but that it's never displayed.

 

[Gasper]

Can anyone please explain Faramir's Telepathy to me? I can't seem to understand from where it cames from.

 

[Tyranno223]

Can anyone please explain Faramir's Telepathy to me? I can't seem to understand from where it cames from.

Denethor can use telepathy due to his Númenórean heritage and Faramir is directly quoted to have inherited this unlike Boromir.

 

[Gasper]

Denethor can use telepathy due to his Númenórean heritage and Faramir is directly quoted to have inherited this unlike Boromir.

I see. Makes sense.

 

[Tyranno223]

I see. Makes sense.

I put the full telepathy quote under Aragorn who also has it. Also Boromir to specify it as a blessing he lacks.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that what Bambu and Medeus accepted above can be applied.

 

[Tyranno223]

Snip

Forgot to ask but how does Aragorn's stuff look? Wasn't sure how to rate the curse in particular.

 

[Gasper]

I know this dosen't have anything to do with the CRT but all Ainur should have astral projection https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Astral_Projection which is missing from their powers and abilities page.

 

[Tyranno223]

I know this dosen't have anything to do with the CRT but all Ainur should have astral projection https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Astral_Projection which is missing from their powers and abilities page.

It's not really Astral Projection, they don't leave a body when they exit it, they unmake it and then remake it upon being finished with spiritual business.

An ability they do miss is Dimensional Travel though.

 

[Gasper]

It's not really Astral Projection, they don't leave a body when they exit it, they unmake it and then remake it upon being finished with spiritual business.

An ability they do miss is Dimensional Travel though.

I always imagined them exiting their body but if that's how it works then aight.

Don't they also miss soul manipulation alongside their fear manipulation?

I think they should also have (at least Morgoth) chaos manipulation and corruption, Sauron as well, but i don't know if all Ainur can corrupt something or just evil ones.

Edit: don't they also fly in their spirit forms?

 

[Tyranno223]

I always imagined them exiting their body but if that's how it works then aight.

Don't they also miss soul manipulation alongside their fear manipulation?

I think they should also have (at least Morgoth) chaos manipulation and corruption, Sauron as well, but i don't know if all Ainur can corrupt something or just evil ones.

They manipulate matter around their spirit to form their fanar.

They have soul manipulation and fear manipulation is largely reserved for the fallen Ainur, which is gonna be covered with evil characters. Although the Ainur might get it if I check over some of Gandalf's stuff

Morgoth gets corruption and probably that too. Sauron gets corruption probably, not sure abour the other one.

Corruption is theoretically doable by every Ainur, it is just infusing themselves into reality afterall.

Edit: Good point, they should be able to fly.

 

[Gasper]

I just looked over Morgoth's profile and there are some abilities that aren't listen in powers and abilities for all Ainur like Energy Manipulation, projection, and Forcefield Creation, transmutation time manipulation and time stop and invisibility. Is there a reason for that?

Also, i think Morgoth also regenerates his head in Morgoth's ring so mid regen?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Forgot to ask but how does Aragorn's stuff look? Wasn't sure how to rate the curse in particular.

I wouldn't agree with Causality Manipulation for his curse. I would also say that from baseline reading, that's just a sort of warrior's oath, but I will defer to you in how magic works: if he explicitly can do it, then I will take it as you describe it, so "possibly Curse Manipulation/Death Manipulation" is fine.

Fear Manipulation might not strictly be an actual thing, the Army of the Dead was just actually terrifying on its own without any supernatural ability behind it, and it stands to reason that Aragorn as its then leader (...summoner? petitioner? whatever, you understand) wouldn't be affected. That said, I note that they are described as beings of "fear and darkness" so I think there's some argument to be head, ig- but it also seems like they themselves can decide who it affects, having told the captives to just not be afraid when freed (who then proceeded to not kill themselves like their captors did). I'd rather a "possibly" here, too, basically, for the Resistance.

The last bit of Fear Manipulation, again, may just straight up be that the artifact itself is frightening to behold. It created a light akin to a star more or less point-blank. I'd be scared.

 

[Tyranno223]

I just looked over Morgoth's profile and there are some abilities that aren't listen in powers and abilities for all Ainur like Energy Manipulation, projection, and Forcefield Creation, time manipulation and time stop and invisibility. Is there a reason for that?

Also, i think Morgoth also regenerates his head in Dagor Dagorath so mid regen?

All the unhighlighted abilities are leftovers from MasterofArda's run. I'm keeping them there until everything's resolved so the profiles aren't empty copypastes.

Dagor Dagorath is canonically ambigious enough that we shouldn't use it. The basic concept remains canon, the idea of a final battle, but there wasn't a draft he made that came close to proper finalisation. The last version he made was scrapped for instance to the point Christopher thought it was outright abandoned till after the Published Silmarillion.

 

[Tyranno223]

I wouldn't agree with Causality Manipulation for his curse. I would also say that from baseline reading, that's just a sort of warrior's oath, but I will defer to you in how magic works: if he explicitly can do it, then I will take it as you describe it, so "possibly Curse Manipulation/Death Manipulation" is fine.

Fear Manipulation might not strictly be an actual thing, the Army of the Dead was just actually terrifying on its own without any supernatural ability behind it, and it stands to reason that Aragorn as its then leader (...summoner? petitioner? whatever, you understand) wouldn't be affected. That said, I note that they are described as beings of "fear and darkness" so I think there's some argument to be head, ig- but it also seems like they themselves can decide who it affects, having told the captives to just not be afraid when freed (who then proceeded to not kill themselves like their captors did). I'd rather a "possibly" here, too, basically, for the Resistance.

The last bit of Fear Manipulation, again, may just straight up be that the artifact itself is frightening to behold. It created a light akin to a star more or less point-blank. I'd be scared.

Possibly sounds good. For the Elendilmir, shall I note it as limited (similar to the horn) or do you think it best removed?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just listing it as "possibly" is fine, since it's not strictly limited if it has it, just that it might or might not. All we know is that it does scare people, whether by being legitimately intimidating or through supernatural means.

 

[Tyranno223]

Just listing it as "possibly" is fine, since it's not strictly limited if it has it, just that it might or might not. All we know is that it does scare people, whether by being legitimately intimidating or through supernatural means.

Sounds good. I'll also add a note in the profile that Andúril is already "cursed" by the Two Towers if someone wants to use that ability.

Edit: Oaths have power as a form of magic in LotR, it's how Isildur cursed the Army of the Dead and why the Sons of Fëanor suffer so much.

Isildur and Aragorn also have "magic" by descent of Melian the Maia through Luthien.

 

[Gasper]

All the unhighlighted abilities are leftovers from MasterofArda's run. I'm keeping them there until everything's resolved so the profiles aren't empty copypastes.

Dagor Dagorath is canonically ambigious enough that we shouldn't use it. The basic concept remains canon, the idea of a final battle, but there wasn't a draft he made that came close to proper finalisation. The last version he made was scrapped for instance to the point Christopher thought it was outright abandoned till after the Published Silmarillion.

So stuff like Time Manipulation, time stop, invisibility, telekinesis etc is gonna get removed?

 

[Tyranno223]

So stuff like Time Manipulation, time stop, invisibility, telekinesis etc is gonna get removed?

Time stuff yes. Invisibility is already in the Ainur page. Telekinesis not sure.

 

[Tyranno223]

General inquiry while the 48 hours is passing.

Do people think the General Revision Thread format is still necessary for LotR? Originally, it was a symptom of how much of a mess the LotR profiles are, and while they're not great yet, it's not anywhere near as awful.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly probably better to have separate CRTs, if you plan on reaching out to other staff members (so they can identify what needs their approval more easily), but other than that it's probably fine to continue like this if you prefer it.

 

[Tyranno223]

48 hours passed, I'll make the changes when I'm free. I'll probably stop making General Revision threads and just open revisions normally once this one is closed. If it isn't closed by the time the individual abilities and resistances are finished, I'll request for this thread's closure then.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that I doubt that many people who know Lord of the Rings well will notice more specific threads for that verse unless you systematically link to them here after they have been created.

 

[Tyranno223]

The problem is that I doubt that many people who know Lord of the Rings well will notice more specific threads for that verse unless you systematically link to them here after they have been created.

Hmm. Well I am still planning to at least do the individual abilities in this format. Depending on how things go, I might not switch formats or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. As I said, if you create individual revision threads, they should preferably be linked to in the general discussion thread for more attention.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ah, bugger. I forgot to mention that Faramir lived till 120 in Appendix A and both Boromir + Faramir would be in their prime till the last years of their lives. It's a minor addition.

The quotes for the latter are on Aragorn's justifications. It's a minor example of Longevity more similar to the Saiyans.

"2983 Faramir son of Denethor born." - (Of the Third Age which lasts for 3019 years) - LotR: Appendix B

"He was the last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed
by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar,
F.A. 82.
(iii)" - LotR: Appendix A.

Away from Laptop for a while, hence the format.

 

[Antvasima]

Ah, bugger. I forgot to mention that Faramir lived till 120 in Appendix A and both Boromir + Faramir would be in their prime till the last years of their lives. It's a minor addition.

The quotes for the latter are on Aragorn's justifications. It's a minor example of Longevity more similar to the Saiyans.

"2983 Faramir son of Denethor born." - (Of the Third Age which lasts for 3019 years) - LotR: Appendix B

"He was the last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed
by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar,
F.A. 82.
(iii)" - LotR: Appendix A.

Away from Laptop for a while, hence the format.

@Mr. Bambu @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy

 

[Armorchompy]

Aye, seems simple enough

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

@Tyranno223

You can probably apply it then.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you.

@Tyranno223

You can probably apply it then.

Thank you. I already accidentally applied it to Faramir from the looks if it, so I'll make sure to go back and add it to Boromir.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems alright.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Hsharpe]

So, I have a few ability proposals for some of the LOTR characters:

Durability Negation:

Sauron and Morgoth and their necromancer servants cannot directly destroy spirits or fëa (since spirits in LOTR are indestructible) but they can attack spirits mentally and reduce them to impotence or they can trap the spirit in body in a perverted way:
“The rare cases are those where sunderance has happened in Aman where there is no decay. Also others more horrible. For it is recorded in the histories that Morgoth, and Sauron after him, would drive out the fëa by terror, and then feed the body and make it a beast. Or worse: he would daunt the fëa within the body and reduce it to impotence; and then nourish the body foully, so that it became bestial, to the horror and torment of the fëa.” - Nature of Middle Earth
This would only apply to those who can use Dark Magic and Necromancy

Possession:

Sauron and his necromancers can possess bodies, or make other spirits possess the bodies of their enemies (this should also likely apply to Morgoth):
“For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they're not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.” - The source evades me

Precognition Negation:

Sauron can negate Precognitive powers of others if he so desires. This power should also apply to Melkor (who possesses the power of all his brethren) and other Ainur:
“Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. ‘I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.” - Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring Goes South

Sauron uses this again, this time against Gandalf:

“No, I did not find them,' said Gandalf. 'There was a darkness over the valleys of the Emyn Muil, and I did not know of their captivity, until the eagle told me.” - The Two Towers, The White Rider

'Yes,' said Gandalf, '... Some things [Gwaihir] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'
'Then you know about Frodo!' said Gimli. 'How do things go with him?'
'I cannot say. He was saved from a great peril, but many lie before him still. He resolved to go alone to Mordor, and he set out: that is all that I can say.” - The Two Tower; The White Rider

That should be it for Abilities. Now for Intelligence

The Valar have knowledge about Eä as a whole, making them Supergenius at the very least in Eä:
“Valar [extract] (The name) means 'those with power, the Powers'. But it should more strictly be translated 'the Authorities'. The 'power' of the Valar resided in the 'authority' they had from Eru. They had sufficient 'power' for their functions . . . but they were forbidden to use force upon the Children of Eru. The stem melk-(seen in Melkor - see Note 27 p. 360) on the other hand means 'power' as force and strength” - Morgoth’s Ring

This is supported by the fact that Varda knows everything within the regions of Eä:
“With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Ea.” - The Silmarillion, Valaquenta

Mandos however, is Nigh-Omniscient, even within Eä:
“Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of Manwë.” - The Silmarillion, Valaquenta

That should be it for now, but I may come back for more.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm currently travelling and not exactly able to look at this stuff in detail yet, but at a glance most of it seems fine. The stuff I have to say might be (even more of) a ramble as a result.

TLDR: Durability Negation can be noted for Ainur profiles that aren't basic Maiar as they can directly attack or influence the soul. But the given example is Fear Manipulation.

At least Extraordinary Genius is 100% fine and Supergenius seems viable to me. Nigh-omniscience for Mandos is good and Manwë could scale to that as the most knowledgeable Vala and can also get knowledge from the omniscient Eru.

Regarding Durability Negation, the Soul Manipulation of the Ainur bypasses physical durability anyway (although this could be noted in AP since they can attack souls directly) and the specific given example is Fear Manipulation. Morgoth and later Sauron can chase out the soul via fear.

Intelligence is a topic that needs covering in detail (Aragorn for example is a brilliant statesman, warrior, healer, ruler, etc. Could qualify for genius), the Wise in LotR for instance (Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, etc) have the ability to predict the future due to their intelligence, something which is Extraordinary Genius.

• "Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called “foresight” in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be “foresight” at second hand." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Footnotes, Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta

The Valar are curious. As Ainur, they can see the past in its entirety completely and have knowledge of the future. They also have complete knowledge of their "material"/concepts as its creators.

• "Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar

This is individual however, and so each Ainu has absolute knowledge of the concepts they made or are tied to

• "Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar
• Indeed, Manwë is said to retain so much knowledge he is practically in line with Eru's mind while some are just experts of birds - "Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200

Collectively, the Ainur are Nigh-Omniscient in regard to knowledge of creation (outside the Children + their free-will, aka Elves, Humans, etc) but individually they are just immensely intelligent on their specific subjects. They are at least Extraordinary Genius due to being wiser and more intelligent than "The Wise" of LotR and could qualify for Supergenius given their knowledge of concepts that logically spans the entire universe, at least for some like Varda (as the material/concept they created encompasses the whole of Eä).

Mandos seems fine as nigh-omniscient. Manwë is also the most knowledgeable of the Valar, being able to directly contact Eru (kinda)

• "It is said that of the Valar Manwë had the greatest knowledge, so that no lore or arts of any of the others were to him a mystery; but that he had less desire to make things of his own, great or small; and under the cares of the Kingship of Arda the desire ceased, for his mind and heart were given rather to healing and restoration."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar
• "Pengolodh adds: “Some say that Manwë, by a special grace to the King, could still in a measure perceive Eru; others more probably, that he remained nearest to Eru, and Eru was most ready to hear and answer him”." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Footnotes, Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta - at least according to Pengolodh, the in-universe First Age Elvish Loremaster who "covers" a lot of the stuff in the notes of Tolkien... well if he was still retained.

Manwë may or may not thus be liable for a certain degree of "Omniscience" given Eru can give him knowledge, but that depends on Eru's decisions. As the most knowledgeable of the Valar he might also be nigh-omniscient like Mandos otherwise, something that is assisted by him understanding Eru's will the best.

• "Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta
• The way he receives Eru's knowledge is left somewhat speculative as either a conversation or via prayer and communion - "[The Valar] remained in direct contact with Eru, though they, as far as the legends go, usually “addressed” Him through Manwë the Elder King. No doubt these legends are somatomorphic [1] (sc. almost as anthropomorphic as are our own legends or imagination), and most Elves, when speaking of Manwë appealing to Eru or having converse with Him, imagined him as a figure, even more majestic than one of their own ancient kings, standing in attitude of prayer or supplication to the Valar."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, XII The Knowledge of the Valar.

 

[Hsharpe]

I'm currently travelling and not exactly able to look at this stuff in detail yet, but at a glance most of it seems fine. The stuff I have to say might be (even more of) a ramble as a result.

TLDR: Durability Negation can be noted for Ainur profiles that aren't basic Maiar as they can directly attack or influence the soul. But the given example is Fear Manipulation.

At least Extraordinary Genius is 100% fine and Supergenius seems viable to me. Nigh-omniscience for Mandos is good and Manwë could scale to that as the most knowledgeable Vala and can also get knowledge from the omniscient Eru.

Regarding Durability Negation, the Soul Manipulation of the Ainur bypasses physical durability anyway (although this could be noted in AP since they can attack souls directly) and the specific given example is Fear Manipulation. Morgoth and later Sauron can chase out the soul via fear.

Intelligence is a topic that needs covering in detail (Aragorn for example is a brilliant statesman, warrior, healer, ruler, etc. Could qualify for genius), the Wise in LotR for instance (Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, etc) have the ability to predict the future due to their intelligence, something which is Extraordinary Genius.

• "Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called “foresight” in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be “foresight” at second hand." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Footnotes, Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta

The Valar are curious. As Ainur, they can see the past in its entirety completely and have knowledge of the future. They also have complete knowledge of their "material"/concepts as its creators.

• "Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar

This is individual however, and so each Ainu has absolute knowledge of the concepts they made or are tied to

• "Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar
• Indeed, Manwë is said to retain so much knowledge he is practically in line with Eru's mind while some are just experts of birds - "Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200

Collectively, the Ainur are Nigh-Omniscient in regard to knowledge of creation (outside the Children + their free-will, aka Elves, Humans, etc) but individually they are just immensely intelligent on their specific subjects. They are at least Extraordinary Genius due to being wiser and more intelligent than "The Wise" of LotR and could qualify for Supergenius given their knowledge of concepts that logically spans the entire universe, at least for some like Varda (as the material/concept they created encompasses the whole of Eä).

Mandos seems fine as nigh-omniscient. Manwë is also the most knowledgeable of the Valar, being able to directly contact Eru (kinda)

• "It is said that of the Valar Manwë had the greatest knowledge, so that no lore or arts of any of the others were to him a mystery; but that he had less desire to make things of his own, great or small; and under the cares of the Kingship of Arda the desire ceased, for his mind and heart were given rather to healing and restoration."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Power of the Valar
• "Pengolodh adds: “Some say that Manwë, by a special grace to the King, could still in a measure perceive Eru; others more probably, that he remained nearest to Eru, and Eru was most ready to hear and answer him”." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Footnotes, Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta - at least according to Pengolodh, the in-universe First Age Elvish Loremaster who "covers" a lot of the stuff in the notes of Tolkien... well if he was still retained.

Manwë may or may not thus be liable for a certain degree of "Omniscience" given Eru can give him knowledge, but that depends on Eru's decisions. As the most knowledgeable of the Valar he might also be nigh-omniscient like Mandos otherwise, something that is assisted by him understanding Eru's will the best.

• "Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX Ósanwe-kenta
• The way he receives Eru's knowledge is left somewhat speculative as either a conversation or via prayer and communion - "[The Valar] remained in direct contact with Eru, though they, as far as the legends go, usually “addressed” Him through Manwë the Elder King. No doubt these legends are somatomorphic [1] (sc. almost as anthropomorphic as are our own legends or imagination), and most Elves, when speaking of Manwë appealing to Eru or having converse with Him, imagined him as a figure, even more majestic than one of their own ancient kings, standing in attitude of prayer or supplication to the Valar."- The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, XII The Knowledge of the Valar.

Alright, I got you. But that leaves us with one more person: Melkor. Since Manwë and Mandos are Nigh-Omniscient, would Melkor be that as well, at least before becoming Morgoth?

 

[Tyranno223]

Alright, I got you. But that leaves us with one more person: Melkor. Since Manwë and Mandos are Nigh-Omniscient, would Melkor be that as well, at least before becoming Morgoth?

Probably not. He has a share in all the gifts of the Valar but only a share. Not the totality. As such he has the most varied knowledge but not in-depth.

That aside, unlike Manwë, he wasn't that in tune with Eru's mind so he doesn't have that either.

 

[Hsharpe]

Probably not. He has a share in all the gifts of the Valar but only a share. Not the totality. As such he has the most varied knowledge but not in-depth.

That aside, unlike Manwë, he wasn't that in tune with Eru's mind so he doesn't have that either.

The only thing he has the most in-depth knowledge of (at least in my opinion) would be Fire, Darkness, Evil, etc. since he created those and all.

 

[Tyranno223]

The only thing he has the most in-depth knowledge of (at least in my opinion) would be Fire, Darkness, Evil, etc. since he created those and all.

Yeah, although fire probably not since it's not treated as a "foul" element or concept.

 

[Antvasima]

Most of what Tyranno223 accepted most recently here can probably be applied, but can somebody summarise the reasons for your intended Intelligence upgrades please?

As you can see in the wiki page I linked to in this post, our requirements are very high and strict, so we have to be very careful before applying them.

 

[Tyranno223]

Most of what Tyranno223 accepted most recently here can probably be applied, but can somebody summarise the reasons for your intended Intelligence upgrades please?

As you can see in the wiki page I linked to in this post, our requirements are very high and strict, so we have to be very careful before applying them.

Sure, I'll provide the one's I can see from my end.

As a baseline, "The Wise" (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, etc) are able to accurately calculate the future with intelligence alone. This is a feature of Extraordinary Intelligence.

The Valar are the wisest and most intelligent beings (minus Eru of course) so they are above this.

However, the Ainur also hold absolute knowledge on their specific "material"/concepts, and for the Valar they hold the most as creators of major ones. This would span the entire High 3-A universe, with Varda for instance (albeit she is one of the more knowledgeable of them) knowing all the regions of Eä. This would be infinite knowledge purely by being able to comprehend and know things on the scale of the infinite universe, not to mention Varda knows every specific region of said universe. Hence the Valar would qualify for Supergenius.

Mandos knows almost all that shall be alongside this pre-extant knowledge, which should make him Nigh-Omniscient.

Manwë is said to know the most out of all the Valar and is able to consult Eru somewhat directly for information too (although whether it's via conversation or prayer is left unclear). As such he is above Mandos in this regard and should be Nigh-Omniscient. This is supported by Tolkien also saying Manwë has an almost complete understanding of Eru's mind, at least in regards to the universe (other statements putting Eru as ineffable to even the Valar, so it's more like Manwë got as close as feasibly possible as Eru's Viceregent).

The Ainur also generally know all that occurred in the past which is an additional feat for their intelligence as all the past is theirs to comprehend and see.