Let's Talk About Magolor: Fixing Kirby's Profile and Scaling

[TriforcePower1]

I'm out, and I won't get home for some days, so I can't help much about that

 

[Cumberjung]

@Eficiente As I've said I'm just here to point out my observations for others to pick apart not to argue a point myself. In other words yeah I'm pretty much just in waiting mode at this point.

 

[Somelatinguy]

I've posted a general discussion thread asking how SSB playable characters defeating Haster Hand whenever he challenges them doesn't count, but it's not receiving answers.

Since Master Hand is literally the god of the entire Smash verse, the fighters defeating him on the regular, let alone the guy who godstomped him, are treated as outliers. Why would a child be able to lose to the toys he plays with?
We've discussed the issue multiple times.

Regardless it's best you do not derail the thread.

- For those moments to be outliers, the amount of Master Hand's victories would have to be higher.

- The characters defeat the hand imagined by the child, not the child himself.

- This doesn't really ruin the topic; the point is "Supernatural power =/= Physical power".

- See also the Kid Icarus: Uprising example and those in works by other authors.


Next, on Void Termina…


- The debris and Kirby fly past that galaxy as fast as flying past stars and even space clouds? Those are actually images depicting motio, very common in the series and space fiction in general.

- In the take of the explosion, it's clearly seen that the debris actually flies too slowly for having been propelled by a high level force.

- Although the explosion's angular diameter is apparently long, it's noteworthy that, in a series with objects' heights relative to eight inches, all the action is filmed with a zoom-in mode.

- Since Kirby needs the power of seven Star Rods to get the Starship, he needs not only that of three allies but also that of a Friend Platform to even get the similar Friend Stars.

 

[Ovrhide]

Im actually fine with 4-A magolor, and anyone who scales or is superior for that matter. Ive always had issue with his 3-B to 3-A rating.

 

[Eficiente]

@Somelatinguy I politely recommend you to stop.

I'm also fine with 4-A Magolor, I'm not 100% convinced of Another Dimension not being Magolor's universe but the possibility is to high to assume otherwise.

Edit from the future: I knew it...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, on the subject of Kirby, I can never remember if we accounted for the fact that Popstar is pretty much flat (something I always forget until the game itself reminds me) in the megaton punch calc. That might be kind of important.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Popstar does have the same gravity as Earth, but it's got like a Pentagrammic shape. Meaning the GBE formula may not be entirely accurate, but it shouldn't be too much from Earth in terms of Mass.

 

[Kepekley23]

Flat Earth is High 6-A

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like, it's not a complete pancake or something, but it's relatively flat.

 

[Theglassman12]

So are we going to downgrade Magolor, or do we have to wait for the void termina stuff to be done? If so, shouldn't that be in another thread considering the main topic of this thread is to justify why Magolor should be downgraded?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The main topic isn't just to downgrade Magolor, but to fix the verse's scaling as a whole while downgrading Magolor, as he throws a wrench into scaling by having feats that don't actually exist (which is pretty easy to fix).

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, just checking.

 

[Eficiente]

@Azzy

we also consider this as a 4-A feat and the main reason why Kirby has resistance to existence erasure.

What are your thoughts on this? Is it accurate?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't know if that's a 4-A feat, but it's probably resistance to...something.

 

[Eficiente]

Understood, nice new image.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Somelatinguy

I never said any of your points about reality warping were derailing.

You brought up a thread about scaling Smash characters to Master Hand in a thread about downgrading Magolor and revising Kirby's scaling, and made a remark about how nobody is giving you answers in your thread. If someone were to address this by going in depth to counter your argument that Smash characters should scale to Master Hand, it would make the topic at hand go off track.

As I said, the issue of Low 2-C Smash characters has been discussed multiple times, so many people are reluctant to discuss it further. If you want input try asking some staff members on their walls.

 

[Ovrhide]

Somelatinguy Lets just keep this on topic. If you have a question about something not related to this, make a thread. However, be warned that the topic you are bringing up has been discussed many times and it may not warrant attention, or worse, it might get closed very quick

 

[WarriorWare]

Killed any chance of 3-A kirby forever for you? I never saw you like that,giving Up on that,but me,im not given up in this yet,i actually believe strongly kirby deserves tier 3.
Also,did Azzy see the galaxies in the background,its very clear galaxies had been blown up with VT,that is undeniable,or are you seeing it as an outlier? Nah,that supports 3-B.

I see galaxies. I see an explosion. I don't see both at the same time nor in the same scene. There's a loading screen between any instance of either thing.

 

[Ovrhide]

i dont know why its so important to have a 3-A kirby. Why not accept our 8 inch tall puffball and palls to just be 4-A?

 

[WarriorWare]

Also, where are we getting all this about Kirby and his pals entering VT's arena through a portal? No they don't. They literally fly there. On a flying vehicle. That doesn't teleport.

And another thing, the camera never points to where the aforementioned galaxy "was." We literally never see the area where the epicenter happens after the screen goes white.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Also, where are we getting all this about Kirby and his pals entering VT's arena through a portal? No they don't. They literally fly there. On a flying vehicle. That doesn't teleport.

And another thing, the camera never points to where the aforementioned galaxy "was." We literally never see the area where the epicenter happens after the screen goes white.

No, they get there through a portal, we see it in the map

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kirby isn't being downgraded. Only Magolor is, who isn't scaled to Kirby or anything on his page.

At absolute worst, he's losing an "At least", but remaining 4-A.

 

[GabrielMaster721]

I would be fine with Magolor getting downgraded to 4-A, though.

 

[Kirby71]

@Azathoth but did you see my argument defending the VT's 3-B feat? I just need this answer.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth but did you see my argument defending the VT's 3-B feat? I just need this answer.

Which one? Because I've addressed said feat numerous times in this thread.

 

[GabrielMaster721]

Forget my earlier comment (the one about Kirby's downgrade). I didn't even bother reading the full post, so I didn't get the real point of it. I do agree with this.

 

[Ovrhide]

@Azathoth but did you see my argument defending the VT's 3-B feat? I just need this answer.

Sorry, but im going to say politely that, you will not convinced anyone about 3-B VT anytime soon do to the lact of feats. The only 3-B argument you could have made was about VT having powers recembling the master crown... if it wasnt for the magolor downgrade.

I believe the most logical tiering would be 4-A. I dont see anything wrong with it.

 

[Kirby71]

Been away most of the day, so I suppose I'll address some random things from the thread, now.

• Void Termina's death explosion being 3-B.

I really hope I don't have to explain this one, too much. When a cloud covers up the sun, this doesn't mean the cloud has consumed the sun. One of these objects is a lot closer than the other. Similarly, Void Termina's explosion, which is right on Kirby's tail, is a lot closer than a distant galaxy. Oan top of this, said explosion occurs withi Kirby's galaxy, and we see for a fact that it doesn't reach Popstar.

Also, the idea that Kirby and co. fight Void Termina in order to stop him from laying waste to the galaxy yet destroy multiple galaxies by killing him and don't give a shit is kind of hilarious, and something I can almost guarantee isn't being perpetuated by people who have actually gone through the game.

Actually,the battle takes place un another place in the universe,not kirby's galaxy,remember,VT doesnt do the same mistake as dark nebula,they were teleported away from kirby's galaxy,It isnt like DN,this time you don't see popstar in the background,they were very afar,the 3-B feat is valid,galaxies were nuked away and popstar was far away enough to survive (or is PIS) remember kirby was unconscious,by being knocked out by the explosion he was knocked out into popstar (near).

This^,we would have an outlier at 3-B to keep the "at least" part of 4-A 100% sure.

 

[Ovrhide]

Thats not how it works

 

[Phoenix821]

Will The Ancients be downgraded as well?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Several quick points to summarize what I said before.

• Void Termina's explosion never even covers a distant galaxy. The two things aren't in the same part of the scene. The explosion happens, Kirby flies away from it and we see another galaxy, Kirby blacks out, then Kirby wakes up in a different location. Not only is there the issue of perspective, but we never even see said galaxy get covered by the explosion.

• It is literally impossible for Void Termina's omnidirectional explosion to have somehow destroyed an entirely different galaxy while leaving the galaxy it actually happened within intact.

• Yes, Void Termina's fight takes place in Kirby's galaxy. Every other event in the game takes place in Kirby's galaxy, and there is no evidence whatsoever that this is any different. In fact, some of the closest objects to Void Termina's arena are groups of stars, which is how it would appear from withi a galaxy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Will The Ancients be downgraded as well?

Considering their tier justification is scaling to the Master Crown, yes.

 

[Kirby71]

@Azathoth but did you see my argument defending the VT's 3-B feat? I just need this answer.

Sorry, but im going to say politely that, you will not convinced anyone about 3-B VT anytime soon do to the lact of feats. The only 3-B argument you could have made was about VT having powers recembling the master crown... if it wasnt for the magolor downgrade.

I believe the most logical tiering would be 4-A. I dont see anything wrong with it.

Im not trying not get 3-B VT but i really trust VT's 3-B feat, even if its an outlier.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Several quick points to summarize what I said before.

• What does it matter if it happened in more scenes? Galaxies don't randomly disappear, so the ones we see at the start obviously won't either. And yes, we see the galaxies covered by the explosion.

• True but...

• False equivalence. The simple fact that we need a portal means the fight takes far away from where we were.

 

[Cumberjung]

Azzy: VT's fight takes place inside Kirby's galaxy.

Me: *Resists the urge to start an argument over that.*

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

• What does it matter if it happened in more scenes? Galaxies don't randomly disappear, so the ones we see at the start obviously won't either. And yes, we see the galaxies covered by the explosion.
• False equivalence. The simple fact that we need a portal means the fight takes far away from where we were.

• No, we don't. Watch the scene again, and show me exactly where it does. Because I guarantee you right now that it doesn't. You see the explosion, a side view of Kirby flying away and dodging some debris with a couple of galaxies passing by in the background, and then it returns to the initial view of the explosion before the screen goes white. I pulled up the cutscene on both youtube and my Switch to verify this. I will even link the scene, right here.

• Going through a portal = going to an entirely different galaxy? What? Also, remember how Kirby ends up back at Popstar without using a portal?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yes, we do. The two covered things are the galaxies I posted up in the discussio

Never said that. Just that in a verse in which is possible to cross galaxies in very little time it doesn't make much sense to go through a portal if you simply wanted to go to the edge of the galaxy (talking about VT). And it's still false equivalency

 

[Kirby71]

Several quick points to summarize what I said before.

• Void Termina's explosion never even covers a distant galaxy. The two things aren't in the same part of the scene. The explosion happens, Kirby flies away from it and we see another galaxy, Kirby blacks out, then Kirby wakes up in a different location. Not only is there the issue of perspective, but we never even see said galaxy get covered by the explosion.

• It is literally impossible for Void Termina's omnidirectional explosion to have somehow destroyed an entirely different galaxy while leaving the galaxy it actually happened within intact.

• Yes, Void Termina's fight takes place in Kirby's galaxy. Every other event in the game takes place in Kirby's galaxy, and there is no evidence whatsoever that this is any different. In fact, some of the closest objects to Void Termina's arena are groups of stars, which is how it would appear from withi a galaxy.

Your point number 2 is related directly to your point 3,its obvious It is another realm and not kirby's galaxy so 3 is invalid and 2 is,obviously true,that means,as you said,its impossible for VT's explosion to do not affect that whole galaxy if affected some more,so that means,VT destroyed that galaxy (not Kirby's) where they were along the another m├║ltiple galaxies.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. There is one galaxy, there. Upper right. Because the others aren't even in that shot and are only seen when we view Kirby from the side.

2. I asked you to show me when said galaxies get covered and you posted a scan of the explosion not even reaching said distant galaxy in the foreground.

3. They don't go through a portal to specifically cross great distances or something like that. They go through a portal because Void Termina goes through said portal and they follow him. That's it. Anything else is assumption supported by nothing within the actual story.

4. Even without that provided, I mention again the issue of perspective, unless you're going to tell me that piece of debris over said distant galaxy is light years in length.

 

[Kirbyelmejor]

You are using the same argument all the time.

That Kirby uses a portal to fight Void Termina doesn't mean that it occurs in another galaxy