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DBZ TOEI: 4-A needs serious fixing

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StrymULTRA

StrymULTRA

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In our Toeiverse AP blog, we have this:

Serious Death Ball²​

This one is even more straightforward, since we can just steal the value from the low-end of the Serious Punch² calc, as all the math would apply to Freeza's feat.

4 * 5.693E+41 * (3.7843e+19/6.957e+8)^2 = 6.7379578e+63 Joules or 67.4 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

However using the Garou's feat is totally unacceptable as we not only use a feat from another verse, but we have visuals for Frieza's feat. I made a calc and it ended up at being 1.36 ExaFoe, which, while still 4-A, is 49.56 times lower.

Not to mention that all the scans used to back Garlic creating that pocket realm, or why it's 4-A in the first place, are dead, as they're all uploaded from Discord, making its reliability very small now.

Meaning that in this thread will have not only a discussion on how the recalc of Frieza's feat will have an impact on the current TOEIverse scaling, but also discussing Garlic Jr's thing and how to upload the scans in a more reliable website (Imgur, Imgbb or Gyazo).
 
Actually why is x2 the radius of the Starry Sky taken here?

Is it because the Zone is supposedly able to have both these realms inside of it while supposedly being a perfect sphere as well?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'll make it clear that I dunno much of the Toei anime, but...

At least FTL+ (Evaded a punch from Gohan with ease[12]), lower with Gigantification (Still managed to keep up with Piccolo despite his reduced speed[10])

Isn't he supposed to be after Frieza?
Click to expand...
We can't really compare him to Frieza at all, they're both 4-A but that's due to entirely separate feats. Toei's speed ratings also need a lot of updating though.
StrymULTRA said:
Anyway... what is to discuss now is how the Frieza's lower calc impacts the Toei scaling, as every rating that's 4-A or above of that verse bases itself on it, with Garlic Jr's feat being merely a supportive one, despite it being 67.55 ExaFoe even now.
Click to expand...
Here's my take

Frieza Saga​

  • Goku post-Zenkai is 1/20th of his Kaioken x20: 68 PettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 increases his power tenfold: 680 PettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20 allows him to reach levels comparable to 50% Freeza: 1.36 ExaFoe
    • (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan increases his power 50-fold: 3.4 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 50% Final Form Frieza can destroy innumerable stars: 1.36 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 100% Final Form Frieza: 2.72 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Garlic Jr./Android Saga​

  • Mecha Frieza is 10x his previous 50% self: 13.6 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • Garlic Jr.'s Dead Zone threatens to destroy two starry skies. Krillin scales to Garlic Jr.: 67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • Base Goku (Cooler's Revenge) is stronger than Post-Garlic Jr. Saga Krillin and 100% Final Form Frieza. Third Form Cooler scales to him: >67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 Goku: >675.5 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20 Goku, Final Form Cooler can easily overpower him: >1.351 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan Goku increases 50x his base: >3.3775 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cell Saga​

  • Imperfect Cell and Android 17 are superior to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: >3.3775 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Imperfect Cell adds Android 17's power onto himself and becomes Semi-Perfect Cell: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
  • Super Saiyan Grade 1 Trunks can stop Semi-Perfect Cell in his tracks. Vegeta is equal to or superior to him: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
    • Base Trunks and Vegeta are 50x weaker: >135.1 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cell Games​

  • Super Saiyan Goku is superior to all of the other Z fighters with just 50% of his power, except Gohan who is stronger than him. SSJ Goku and Gohan: >13.51 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Goku and Gohan are 50x weaker: >270.2 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is 2x Super Saiyan, Super Perfect Cell matches him: >27.02 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Other World Tournament​

Everyone beyond this point (Buu Saga and up) are either High 3-A or 2-C.

The Pikkon thread is still being discussed so this is just a hypothetical. Incase it gets resolved and accepted, Cell games Gohan in all his forms and everyone who scales to him will be High 3-A (as well as Super Perfect Cell), and Pikkon would just be 4-A with weights and 3-C without weights.
 
Ednaxel2 said:
We can't really compare him to Frieza at all, they're both 4-A but that's due to entirely separate feats. Toei's speed ratings also need a lot of updating though.

Here's my take

Frieza Saga​

  • Goku post-Zenkai is 1/20th of his Kaioken x20: 68 PettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 increases his power tenfold: 680 PettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20 allows him to reach levels comparable to 50% Freeza: 1.36 ExaFoe
    • (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan increases his power 50-fold: 3.4 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 50% Final Form Frieza can destroy innumerable stars: 1.36 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 100% Final Form Frieza: 2.72 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Garlic Jr./Android Saga​

  • Mecha Frieza is 10x his previous 50% self: 13.6 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • Garlic Jr.'s Dead Zone threatens to destroy two starry skies. Krillin scales to Garlic Jr.: 67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • Base Goku (Cooler's Revenge) is stronger than Post-Garlic Jr. Saga Krillin and 100% Final Form Frieza. Third Form Cooler scales to him: >67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 Goku: >675.5 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20 Goku, Final Form Cooler can easily overpower him: >1.351 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan Goku increases 50x his base: >3.3775 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cell Saga​

  • Imperfect Cell and Android 17 are superior to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: >3.3775 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Imperfect Cell adds Android 17's power onto himself and becomes Semi-Perfect Cell: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
  • Super Saiyan Grade 1 Trunks can stop Semi-Perfect Cell in his tracks. Vegeta is equal to or superior to him: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
    • Base Trunks and Vegeta are 50x weaker: >135.1 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cell Games​

  • Super Saiyan Goku is superior to all of the other Z fighters with just 50% of his power, except Gohan who is stronger than him. SSJ Goku and Gohan: >13.51 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Goku and Gohan are 50x weaker: >270.2 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is 2x Super Saiyan, Super Perfect Cell matches him: >27.02 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Other World Tournament​

Everyone beyond this point (Buu Saga and up) are either High 3-A or 2-C.

The Pikkon thread is still being discussed so this is just a hypothetical. Incase it gets resolved and accepted, Cell games Gohan in all his forms and everyone who scales to him will be High 3-A (as well as Super Perfect Cell), and Pikkon would just be 4-A with weights and 3-C without weights.
Click to expand...
Are we really saying that Krillin at that point is much stronger than that Frieza?

Also we can discuss speed scaling here if it's *****.
 
Ok noticed that by our profiles that Garlic Jr. saga Krillin is separated from his Namek Saga self, which by our profiles is not wrong then.

Just feels weird tbh.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
Dunno about it, unless there has been a timeskip between Trunks' first coming and Garlic Jr saga here.
Click to expand...
Garlic Jr takes place before Future Trunks. The easiest solution is to just say 50% Frieza is still stronger than Krillin (Post-Garlic Jr Saga) as the moment he noticed Frieza's arrival he instantly was worried
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Garlic Jr takes place before Future Trunks. The easiest solution is to just say 50% Frieza is still stronger than Krillin (Post-Garlic Jr Saga) as the moment he noticed Frieza's arrival he instantly was worried
Click to expand...
Makes sense, though base Namek Goku being > Garlic Jr also makes sense with how that Namek feat was done pretty casually and now a dying 100% Frieza still tanked it.
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Garlic Jr takes place before Future Trunks. The easiest solution is to just say 50% Frieza is still stronger than Krillin (Post-Garlic Jr Saga) as the moment he noticed Frieza's arrival he instantly was worried
Click to expand...
Tbh Frieza is still stronger than pretty much everyone who is not Goku, as even Piccolo was shocked and scared of him.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Makes sense, though base Namek Goku being > Garlic Jr also makes sense with how that Namek feat was done pretty casually and now a dying 100% Frieza still tanked it.
Click to expand...
The feat is still like 60x inferior. The worst we can say is that it supports it
StrymULTRA said:
Makes sense, though base Namek Goku being > Garlic Jr also makes sense with how that Namek feat was done pretty casually and now a dying 100% Frieza still tanked it.
Click to expand...
The mere presence of Frieza was able to make Krillin and Gohan fear him instantly and go straight into battle, (his was ki too far away for them to sense it fully, but just knowning Frieza was coming made them terrified)
f3jnxR1.png

Krillin only knows how strong Frieza is at only 50% since he died before Frieza went 100%
 
Anyway, scaling would be this:

Frieza Saga​

  • Goku post-Zenkai is implied to be stronger than everyone who fought Garlic Jr: >67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 increases his power tenfold: >675.5 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20: >1.351 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan increases his power 50-fold: >3.3775 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 50% Final Form Frieza is comparable, if not above Kaioken x20 Goku: >1.351 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 100% Final Form Frieza: >2.702 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cooler Movie​

  • Base Goku and Cooler are both stronger than 100% Freeza: >2.702 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaioken x20 Goku and 5th Form Cooler are twentyfold above this: >54.04 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Super Saiyan Goku is 50x above base: >135.1 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Cell Saga​

  • Imperfect Cell and Android 17 are superior to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: >135.1 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Imperfect Cell adds Android 17's power onto himself and becomes Semi-Perfect Cell: >270.2 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
  • Super Saiyan Grade 1 Trunks can stop Semi-Perfect Cell in his tracks. Vegeta is equal to or superior to him: >270.2 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Trunks and Vegeta are 50x weaker: >5.404 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)

Cell Games​

  • Super Saiyan Goku is superior to all of the other Z fighters with just 50% of his power, except Gohan who is stronger than him. SSJ Goku and Gohan: >540.4 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Goku and Gohan are 50x weaker: >10.808 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
    • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is 2x Super Saiyan, Super Perfect Cell matches him: >1.0808 YottaFoe (Galaxy level)

Other World Tournament​

Everyone beyond this point (Buu Saga and up) are either High 3-A or 2-C.
 
Last edited:
Regardless I do think a calc blog should be added for Garlic Jr., as rn it relies on just that AP blog lol.

I think I'll make 2 ends as nothing really says the Lookout in the inside is a sphercial pocket realm which has x2 the diameter of a starry sky, a low end would just be the AP of starry sky x2.
Ednaxel2 said:
Saying that can't be the case, even though nothing opposes it, is incredulity
Click to expand...
Tbh Piccolo didn't really experience SSJ Goku at the time due to him being unconscious, no?
 
In case only Frieza 50% > Garlic is accepted: 67.55

Anyway, scaling would be this:

Frieza Saga​

  • Goku post-Zenkai is 1/20th of his Kaioken x20: > 3.3775 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 increases his power tenfold: >33.775 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20 allows him to reach levels comparable to 50% Freeza: >67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan increases his power 50-fold: >168.875 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 50% Final Form Frieza is above Post-Garlic Jr. Piccolo and Krillin: > 67.55 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • 100% Final Form Frieza: >135.1 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cooler Movie​

  • Base Goku and Cooler are both stronger than 100% Freeza: >135.1 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaioken x20 Goku and 5th Form Cooler are twentyfold above this: >2.702 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Super Saiyan Goku is 50x above base: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)

Cell Saga​

  • Imperfect Cell and Android 17 are superior to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: >6.755 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
    • Imperfect Cell adds Android 17's power onto himself and becomes Semi-Perfect Cell: >13.51 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
  • Super Saiyan Grade 1 Trunks can stop Semi-Perfect Cell in his tracks. Vegeta is equal to or superior to him: >13.51 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Trunks and Vegeta are 50x weaker: >270.2 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)

Cell Games​

  • Super Saiyan Goku is superior to all of the other Z fighters with just 50% of his power, except Gohan who is stronger than him. SSJ Goku and Gohan: >27.02 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Goku and Gohan are 50x weaker than their Super Saiyan forms: >540.4 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is 2x Super Saiyan, Super Perfect Cell matches him: >54.04 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Other World Tournament​

Everyone beyond this point (Buu Saga and up) are either High 3-A or 2-C.

Anyway, it does indeed feel weird as narratively it's indeed implied that Base Goku should still be above Garlick without using techniques, but still...
 
StrymULTRA said:
I think I'll make 2 ends as nothing really says the Lookout in the inside is a sphercial pocket realm which has x2 the diameter of a starry sky, a low end would just be the AP of starry sky x2.
Click to expand...
I think you're misunderstanding the calc, the argument is that it involves two 4-A realms, one of which is "deeper" within the lookout compared to the other, hence 2x the distance of the realm which through ISL yields a 4x result. Garlic was affecting the realm from the outisde of the lookout.
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
I think you're misunderstanding the calc, the argument is that it involves two 4-A realms, one of which is "deeper" within the lookout compared to the other, hence 2x the distance of the realm which through ISL yields a 4x result. Garlic was affecting the realm from the outisde of the lookout.
Click to expand...
I see then. Though the formula still assumes that the lookout in itself is a perfect sphere.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Anyway, it does indeed feel weird as narratively it's indeed implied that Base Goku should still be above Garlick without using techniques, but still...
Click to expand...
How is it narratively implied he's stronger without any techniques in just his base, the statement is just "We beat Garlic without Goku" even though Gohan knows about Super Saiyan, and the other two know about the Kaio-ken and Spirit Bomb
 
Ednaxel2 said:
How is it narratively implied he's stronger without any techniques in just his base, the statement is just "We beat Garlic without Goku" even though Gohan knows about Super Saiyan, and the other two know about the Kaio-ken and Spirit Bomb
Click to expand...
They literally said that Garlic Jr is kinda fodder, they'd have compared him to Frieza if he's that strong ngl.
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
I think you're misunderstanding the calc, the argument is that it involves two 4-A realms, one of which is "deeper" within the lookout compared to the other, hence 2x the distance of the realm which through ISL yields a 4x result. Garlic was affecting the realm from the outisde of the lookout.
Click to expand...
Ok so I rewatched the thing and... made another calc.

270.19 ExaFoe... would need an evalutation tho.
 
If the epic Garlic Recalc is accepted:

Frieza Saga​

  • Goku post-Zenkai is implied to be stronger than everyone who fought Garlic Jr: >270.19 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x10 increases his power tenfold: >2.7019 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
    • Kaio-ken x20: >5.4038 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
    • Super Saiyan increases his power 50-fold: >13.5095 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
  • 50% Final Form Frieza is comparable, if not above Kaioken x20 Goku: >5.4038 ZettaFoe (Multi-Solar System level+)
  • 100% Final Form Frieza: >10.8076 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Cooler Movie​

  • Base Goku and Cooler are both stronger than 100% Freeza: >10.8076 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Kaioken x20 Goku and 5th Form Cooler are twentyfold above this: >216.152 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Super Saiyan Goku is 50x above base: >540.38 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Cell Saga​

  • Imperfect Cell and Android 17 are superior to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: >540.38 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Imperfect Cell adds Android 17's power onto himself and becomes Semi-Perfect Cell: >1.08076 YottaFoe (Galaxy level)
  • Super Saiyan Grade 1 Trunks can stop Semi-Perfect Cell in his tracks. Vegeta is equal to or superior to him: >1.08076 YottaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Trunks and Vegeta are 50x weaker: >21.6152 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)

Cell Games​

  • Super Saiyan Goku is superior to all of the other Z fighters with just 50% of his power, with only Super Saiyan Gohan being stronger than him: >2.16152 YottaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Base Goku and Gohan are 50x weaker: >43.2304 ZettaFoe (Galaxy level)
    • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is 2x Super Saiyan, Super Perfect Cell matches him: >4.32304 YottaFoe (Galaxy level+)

Other World Tournament​

  • Weighted Paikuhan two-shots Super Perfect Cell, and base Goku after getting stronger is comparable to him: >4.32304 YottaFoe (Galaxy level+)
    • Super Saiyan Goku is 50x stronger: >216.152 YottaFoe (Multi-Galaxy level)
    • Super Kaioken is 2x Super Saiyan: >432.304 YottaFoe (Multi-Galaxy level)
Everyone beyond this point (Buu Saga and up) are either High 3-A or 2-C.
 
StrymULTRA said:
They literally said that Garlic Jr is kinda fodder, they'd have compared him to Frieza if he's that strong ngl.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, a new point in favor of Base Goku being > Post Garlic Jr. Z Fighters is the statement implying that Goku is still stronger than everyone at their peak. They wouldn't say that if Goku would have been forced to use Kaioken x20 or SSJ to be able to match up Krillin, come on guys.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Goku post-Zenkai is implied to be stronger than everyone who fought Garlic Jr: >270.19 ExaFoe (Multi-Solar System level)
Click to expand...
I wouldn't use this reasoning since there was an argument that the cast grew stronger within the arc and there's also stuff like Gohan fighting 50% Freeza in the anime, it's been a very long time since I've watched anything in the anime past the Saiyan arc though
 
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